NDP leadership race 4

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Left Turn Left Turn's picture

WWWTT wrote:
I meant "central" in geographic term. Not metophoric.

WWWTT, I fully understood what you meant by 'central Canada'. I will however contend that most people use the term to refer to the most 'Central" of the four Canadian 'regions' -- 1) Atlantic Canada 2) Central Canada (Ontario & Quebec) 3)Western Canada (Bc & the prairie provinces) and 4) Norther Canada (The 3 terrioties).

As such, I will contend that most people would view Niki Ashton as coming from 'Western Canada', and not as another 'Central Canadian' leader of the NDP.

Pogo

 I would add that regionally it is becoming quite jumbled.  BC used to consider itself a region unto itself, but there are now many connections to the new multi-cultural and urban Edmonton and Calgary.  The prairies are in many ways starting now east of Calgary and often can include anything west of Thunder Bay.  Added to that is the deep urban, rural split that exists in almost all provinces.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Anyone who didn't win, lost.  It only seems more profound that, say, Clinton lost because it was so widely assumed that she wouldn't.  But that wasn't the electorate rejecting "centrism", it was the electorate (or at least the Electoral College)  endorsing Trumpism.

Why did Corbyn and Sanders lose?  Was it because the PLC and the DNC respectively did not have their backs?  I would think that as "outsiders", the very last thing they could want would be "the establishment" blessing them.  If the establishment labelled them the "balanced leaders who can bring a much needed compromise to politics" then it would have been the end of them.  Whatever they might have gained from the dismissible "centre" they'd have lost from the fringes who can't support a sell-out.

I think Belanger is right when he says:

Quote:
Cleary the equation to attract the young electorate is not simply hard left or bust. That’s wishful thinking.

Maybe he's only reciting that to please his corporate paymasters or whatever, but he's right.  If nationalized barbershops were the clear ticket to winning over the electorate and taking power then it would have just happened regardless if the corporate media, or corporations, or trillionaires disapprove.

 

brookmere

Obama managed to win two terms by attracting the young electorate among others, and he is certainly a centrist. Had HRC simply held on to Obama's vote from the previous election she would have beaten Trump in a walk .Trump got fewer votes than Romney did, so I wouldn't say "Trumpism" is why HRC lost.

HRC lost because she was a lousy candidate who ran a lousy campaign.

josh

brookmere wrote:

Obama managed to win two terms by attracting the young electorate among others, and he is certainly a centrist. Had HRC simply held on to Obama's vote from the previous election she would have beaten Trump in a walk .Trump got fewer votes than Romney did, so I wouldn't say "Trumpism" is why HRC lost.

HRC lost because she was a lousy candidate who ran a lousy campaign.

Actually, Trump got 2 million more than Romney and Clinton nearly equaled Obama's total.  However she fell about 4 million short of his 2008 number.

 

Pogo

Still she was the wrong candidate for the times. She had bum written all over her in a throw out the bums elections. She was calculating when people were looking for off the cuff honesty.

R.E.Wood

Jagmeet Singh is getting his first endorsement from a sitting MP, BC's Randall Garrison.

http://nationalpost.com/news/politics/ndp-leadership-hopeful-jagmeet-sin...

josh

Julian gets endorsements from 6 former Quebec MPs.

http://ipolitics.ca/2017/06/26/julian-nets-endorsements-from-six-former-...

brookmere

josh wrote:
Actually, Trump got 2 million more than Romney and Clinton nearly equaled Obama's total.
My mistake. However, if HRC had equalled Obama's 2012 tally just in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania she would have won the election.

R.E.Wood

Received an email from the party today that surprised me:

The July 3 nomination deadline is fast-approaching, and we’re busy getting ready for the next phase of this leadership race. With five candidates already in the running, there are a handful more who are working to meet this deadline.

If you would like to nominate any or all of the remaining candidates, you can do so via the links below:

David Berlin: www.ndp.ca/nominate-david-berlin
Alan Gorman: www.ndp.ca/nominate-alan-gorman
Mike McNamee: www.ndp.ca/nominate-mike-mcnamee

As the party provides no information on who any of them are (and they're not household names to me), I did a bit of searching:

David Berlin is presumably the Author/journalist. http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/david-berlin/  http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/david-berlin/ndp-leader_b_960269.html

Alan Gorman is a "Mining entrepreneur" and until very recently was President & CEO of Oceanic Iron Ore Corp. http://blog.ceo.ca/2015/04/22/beyond-oversupply-steelmakers-need-higher-...      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBTslpDPBeg

Mike McNamee hails from the NDP Socialist Caucus. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu0imIbuFZQ 

I assume they're all noble and well-intentioned, but I don't understand why the leadership race needs any more candidates at this point. Period. That said, if new candidates were to step in now I'd rather they represent a bit more diversity: more women, LGBTQ, or Indigenous candidates for a start. On this basis I certainly won't be signing any of their nominations.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Peculiar that there have already been debates, and yet also new candidates.

Seems a bit like letting runners join a marathon late, at the 13-mile mark.

Quote:
That said, if new candidates were to step in now I'd rather they represent a bit more diversity

Well, a resource-extraction magnate and a member of the Socialist Caucus... not diverse in all ways, but not exactly homogenous either.

 

WWWTT

Thanks for reminding me that leaving the ndp was a good solid decision!

Someone from the pro Justin Trudeau huffington post?!?!?! Ya I don't have any regrets.

R.E.Wood

Some good general analysis of where the leadership race stands on CBC Pollcast -- host Éric Grenier is joined by NDP insiders Sally Housser of Navigator and Robin MacLachlan of Summa Strategies.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/grenier-pollcast-maclachlan-housser-1.41...

josh

CW analysis.  Making the same mistake they did with Bernier by focusing on money.  And basing nothing more on Singh being at the top than CW and NDP elite wishful thinking.  Underestimating both Ashton and Julian.

quizzical

WWWTT wrote:
Thanks for reminding me that leaving the ndp was a good solid decision! Someone from the pro Justin Trudeau huffington post?!?!?! Ya I don't have any regrets.

you're so funny in this comment. i laughed out loud.

using someone who may or may not be joining the leadership race - who may or may not be a Justin supporter -  as a confirmation bias on what a good choice you made is hilarious.

 

WWWTT

Hi quizzical. When I make decisions, sometimes it's the result of many different factors/influences/opinions etc etc. The main reason I left was so that I can focus on my family, I didn't have time to attend meetings raise and donate my own money etc etc. I'm an older first time father of a 4 year old boy and 2 year old boy and girl twins. My hands are full! I actually joined rabble back in the beginning of 2015 but had no time to make many comments then. If anything, it was Horwaths abandoned public auto insurance direction that probably turned me off the most at first. If you get the chance, ask Jagmeet how that 10% auto insurance rate deduction the ONDP fought so hard for is going. Believe me, my comments are just a summary of a whole bunch of stuff! And as a side note, I was first turned on to join rabble when I met Libby Davies at the rabble booth at the 2012 NDP federal leadership convention in Toronto

R.E.Wood

Well, the deadline to enter the race has hit, adn it seems those other potential entrants didn't make the cut, so we're staying with the 5 already in the race. Good. 

http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2017/07/03/deadline-to-declare-for-ndp-...

Josh, I think you're right about Ashton being underestimated in that CBC discussion, but I'm not so sure about Julian. I have a feeling he's still going to be on the bottom. Of course it's hard to know where they really stand, but the last fundraising period has ended and new numbers will be coming at the end of this month which should give us a good indication of how they rank. Perhaps some polling companies will try to get in on the action after those new fundraising numbers come out?

Hunky_Monkey

Pogo wrote:

Still she was the wrong candidate for the times. She had bum written all over her in a throw out the bums elections. She was calculating when people were looking for off the cuff honesty.

Probably why she got almost 3 million more votes than Trump.  The issue that cost her was a campaign that ignored certain key states until it was too late.  And of course a healthy dose of sexism thrown in didn't help.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Don't forget to thank WikiLeaks.  And of course the Ebola virus that she lied about being infected with. 

Hunky_Monkey

epaulo13 wrote:

NDP needs to remember that it is really the centrists and 'Third Way' that lost in the US and UK

In what can only be read as a rather defensive and bizarre apologia for the NDP's election strategy catastrophe in 2015, former National Director of the NDP Karl Bélanger has penned an op-ed (in the Toronto Sun no less!) called "NDP needs to remember that Jeremy Corbyn and Bernie Sanders lost". It is the saddest attempt that I have seen to date from a Canadian 'progressive' to downplay and minimize exactly what it is that Corbyn recently accomplished in the UK....

Karl, a key player in the 2011 Orange Wave with Jack Layton, is right.  What has he written that is inaccurate?  Nothing.

For the record, Corbyn lost.  And the Tories won 55 more seats than he did.  He lost in the face of a disastrous campaign by May that be was the beneficiary of.  Even in the face of that she managed to bump up her vote by almost six points.  He did better than most predicted.  I would suggest it was May and also a rather moderate Labour manifesto that gave him a boost.  Along with a disciplined campaign where he stuck to the script.

Hunky_Monkey

R.E.Wood wrote:

Well, the deadline to enter the race has hit, adn it seems those other potential entrants didn't make the cut, so we're staying with the 5 already in the race. Good. 

http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2017/07/03/deadline-to-declare-for-ndp-...

Josh, I think you're right about Ashton being underestimated in that CBC discussion, but I'm not so sure about Julian. I have a feeling he's still going to be on the bottom. Of course it's hard to know where they really stand, but the last fundraising period has ended and new numbers will be coming at the end of this month which should give us a good indication of how they rank. Perhaps some polling companies will try to get in on the action after those new fundraising numbers come out?

The NDP membership is far different than the members here.  One thing to keep in mind.  

Ashton turns a lot of people off.  I have spoken to many who find her abrasive and robotic.  And for the record, majority were women including an NDP MLA.  She's not an appealing candidate.  It's like she's programed with left talking points.  She may say the right things to many New Democrats but the question is will she connect to everyday voters in 2019?  I would venture to guess not.  So while she may tickle the fancy of the socialist left, I doubt she will to families looking for a leader that talks about kitchen table, bread and butter issues that wins elections.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

I'm having a hard time controlling my laughter after reading posts 121 and 122. Hunky_Monkey seems to think that nothing has changed since 2011, and that trotting out the Layton platform one more time will be the charm. Good luck with that, pal.

"But Bernie and Corbyn lost", he wails, as if they didn't each ignite an explosion of political activity by previously uninvolved citizens. An explosion the consequences of which in the U.S. and U.K. are yet to be determined. The big thing they have in common is that they made an offer to voters which included breaking the neo-liberal economic rules in ways that were considered "politically impossible" by people like Hunky_Monkey until actual elections proved that they have huge appeal to many people who had previously given up on politics.

None of these things would ever have happened if the so-called moderate left had been able to prevent it. If they get to choose who the next NDP leader is, we can forget about anything interesting happening in the next federal election. They think that Jagmeet can out-Justin Justin, but they can't imagine actual issues motivating anybody but the "socialist left". Follow these guys, and you might as well join the LPC.

WWWTT

Hi Michael Moriarity I agree with you somewhat but also not and I definitely don't agree with the whole laughing thing. But to each their own I guess. I find many people in the ndp have this revisionist history when talking about Jack 2011 and the orange wave. The way I remember it, Jack was Canadians second choice to Harper thanks to the implosion of Ignatieff. Since the liberals frequently adopt ndp policies and now focus on cosmetics over substance to appeal to voters, the ndp are left with being a party with pockets of support across Canada. Trying to do this liberal cosmetic cat walk fashion politics thing works good when the liberal media (CBC) bends its ass over backwards photo chopping. Obviously the liberal media isn't going to give the ndp shit, so why bother sacrificing your base?

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Hello WWWTT. Are you stating some disagreement with my post? If you are, I can't quite understand it.

WWWTT

Hey brother if you don't disagree with my comment above than we probably have more in agreement than what I initially thought. Sorry but it's sometimes hard for me to write in depth comments because of the time I have to exhaust to do so. My wife gets pissed off at me and sometimes it feels like I'm cheating for some reason? If I focus too long in writing a comment for sure one of my three toddlers will get into something and my wife will be yelling. Anyways, I think that mulcairs lust to hang on to power really hurt the centralist movement within the ndp. Hopefully The members will move back to the grassroots fabric that the ndp is famous for but forgotten in the last decade. 

Pogo

R.E.Wood wrote:
but I'm not so sure about Julian. I have a feeling he's still going to be on the bottom. 

So we have 5 candidates 1 from BC, I from Manitoba, 2 from Ontario, and 1 from Quebec. I am guessing that 80% of the votes will come from BC and Ontario.  Julian comes into the campaign with a significant regional advantage.  I would also hazard a bet that he has visited more other ridings since being elected as an MP than any of the other candidates (often connected with his community forums on disability tax credits). While he may not be the left candidate, which would be a stretch, he is the environmental candidate which has to count for something.

josh

Hunky_Monkey wrote:

epaulo13 wrote:

NDP needs to remember that it is really the centrists and 'Third Way' that lost in the US and UK

In what can only be read as a rather defensive and bizarre apologia for the NDP's election strategy catastrophe in 2015, former National Director of the NDP Karl Bélanger has penned an op-ed (in the Toronto Sun no less!) called "NDP needs to remember that Jeremy Corbyn and Bernie Sanders lost". It is the saddest attempt that I have seen to date from a Canadian 'progressive' to downplay and minimize exactly what it is that Corbyn recently accomplished in the UK....

Karl, a key player in the 2011 Orange Wave with Jack Layton, is right.  What has he written that is inaccurate?  Nothing.

For the record, Corbyn lost.  And the Tories won 55 more seats than he did.  He lost in the face of a disastrous campaign by May that be was the beneficiary of.  Even in the face of that she managed to bump up her vote by almost six points.  He did better than most predicted.  I would suggest it was May and also a rather moderate Labour manifesto that gave him a boost.  Along with a disciplined campaign where he stuck to the script.

I guess you must have forgotten that Mulcair and Horwath lost.  Both trying to outLiberal the Liberals.

R.E.Wood

Pogo wrote:

R.E.Wood wrote:
but I'm not so sure about Julian. I have a feeling he's still going to be on the bottom. 

So we have 5 candidates 1 from BC, I from Manitoba, 2 from Ontario, and 1 from Quebec. I am guessing that 80% of the votes will come from BC and Ontario.  Julian comes into the campaign with a significant regional advantage.  I would also hazard a bet that he has visited more other ridings since being elected as an MP than any of the other candidates (often connected with his community forums on disability tax credits). While he may not be the left candidate, which would be a stretch, he is the environmental candidate which has to count for something.

Well, to deliberately mis-quote Douglas Adams, "OK, so ten out of ten for being the environmental candidate, but minus several million for style."

ETA: I also don't get regional block voting. It's stupid. Who cares if the best candidate comes from BC or Ontario or Quebec or Manitoba or anywhere... Where they come from has no bearing on their ability to be leader, and if BC people are going to vote for Julian because he's also from BC, then they're making the decision for the wrong reasons (same going for any other regional block).

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

R.E.Wood wrote:

ETA: I also don't get regional block voting. It's stupid. Who cares if the best candidate comes from BC or Ontario or Quebec or Manitoba or anywhere... Where they come from has no bearing on their ability to be leader, and if BC people are going to vote for Julian because he's also from BC, then they're making the decision for the wrong reasons (same going for any other regional block).

I guess it is in how one defines the "best" candidate. If that includes a passionate committment to BC's environment then Peter is heads above the others. Its like anything else if two people are reasonably equal then most people chose the person that is most likely to represent their interests the best because they understand them the best. Frankly I think that a few of the candidates would have a hard time locating the Salish sea.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Its like anything else if two people are reasonably equal then most people chose the person that is most likely to represent their interests the best because they understand them the best.

If that's the case then it goes a ways toward explaining why white candidates seem to fare better than candidates of colour.  I know that's not what you were implying, but still, same idea.

Quote:
Frankly I think that a few of the candidates would have a hard time locating the Salish sea.

And others being able to say whether College and Carleton ever meet.  Or whether High Park or Regent Park is the housing development.

I kind of agree with R.E.Wood here.  Voting for someone because they're the "home team" is just team sports.

brookmere

I also don't get regional block voting

In a Canada-wide one member one vote contest, regional support per se means nothing. I think Singh is likely to outpoll Julian even in BC alone. Not saying he should, but you have to pay attention to how the machines work.

WWWTT

Perhaps this "regional" issue that I touched upon when I was talking about Niki seems to be a bigger thing than what I first thought judging by the number of comments. At first I thought my reference to Nikis location being "central" was the controversy. But it looks like it goes deeper than that. Perhaps my perspective from the last leadership convention may be of help. After the orange wave brought in many new mp's from Quebec together with Jacks passing, many members whom I talked with from across Canada felt that the new leader should be from Quebec. And Mulcair fit the bill. Would it have helped if the members did more background checks on Mulcair? Sure but I don't think it would have made any difference and the rest is history. Moving forward remembering what happened in the past, it's probably best to use geographic location only as a tie breaker factor and maybe not even that far. Ok so I changed my mind, you guys happy now?

pietro_bcc

My general thoughts on the race as far as preferences so far based on the debate, meeting all the candidates (except Jagmeet) in Montreal and their platforms:

1. Peter Julian
2. Guy Caron
3. Charlie Angus
4. Jagmeet Singh
5. Niki Ashton

Peter Julian and Guy Caron have the most detailed and comprehensive platforms thus far and I would be happy with either of them as leader and think that both would increase the number of NDP seats, but I put Peter Julian ahead because of his focus on climate change. I love that Julian has been clearly against the bitumen pipelines and for free university tuition. The clarity with which Guy Caron discusses and presents his tax reform plan is appealing, definitely a progressive and well thought out plan. While Julian started off very stiff and slow he has gotten better in the most recent debates and showed some fight, he started off as my least favorite candidate and has impressed me to the point that I gave him a donation (which is a first for me in terms of giving to a specific candidate rather than party.)

I liked Charlie Angus initially, but his evasiveness is getting tiring. For example, in one of the first debates he was asked which system of voting he would prefer. His answer, we'll need to win a majority to change the voting system. All the other candidates answered except for him and to this day I don't know what he supports. That constant "I'm an all Canadian small town guy" shtick he pulls whenever he is pushed by a questioner is also wearing thin. I like his focus on indigenous issues, but hate that he puts down the ambitious policy positions of others whenever he gets the chance using the "how will we pay for it" conservative framing, as well as his tacit support of the pipelines. As a Quebecer, he clearly has the worst French of the lot, worse than Harper and worse than Elizabeth May.

Jagmeet Singh is also evasive much like Angus and the way he has set up his campaign just comes off as the NDP brass trying to install our version of Justin Trudeau. Electing him would be fighting the last campaign. We don't need our version of Trudeau, those who like Trudeau will vote for Trudeau and not our copy. We need a principled progressive. I just recently saw Singh's response to the Ontario Liberal sex ed plan and was really put off by it, I guarantee the Liberals already have a bunch of messaging on his sex ed views in the holster should he win.

Niki Ashton just projects fakeness to me and I really don't get the appeal. She says all the right things, but comes off as inauthentic and just trying to prove that she is the most left of the bunch.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

pietro your views and perceptions of the candidates are much the same as mine. I think either Guy or Peter would be good leaders.  

WWWTT

Good job pietro sounds like you did some real homework but from your own comments it sounds like you're giving Niki too low of a ranking. It sounds like you would rank her 3rd and oddly rank her 5th???? Niki also speaks Spanish! This has importance to me because of the cultural jump she has proven she is not afraid to make. This is also appealing to expanding ndp base. I wish the ndp the best of luck

Hunky_Monkey

josh wrote:

Hunky_Monkey wrote:

epaulo13 wrote:

NDP needs to remember that it is really the centrists and 'Third Way' that lost in the US and UK

In what can only be read as a rather defensive and bizarre apologia for the NDP's election strategy catastrophe in 2015, former National Director of the NDP Karl Bélanger has penned an op-ed (in the Toronto Sun no less!) called "NDP needs to remember that Jeremy Corbyn and Bernie Sanders lost". It is the saddest attempt that I have seen to date from a Canadian 'progressive' to downplay and minimize exactly what it is that Corbyn recently accomplished in the UK....

Karl, a key player in the 2011 Orange Wave with Jack Layton, is right.  What has he written that is inaccurate?  Nothing.

For the record, Corbyn lost.  And the Tories won 55 more seats than he did.  He lost in the face of a disastrous campaign by May that be was the beneficiary of.  Even in the face of that she managed to bump up her vote by almost six points.  He did better than most predicted.  I would suggest it was May and also a rather moderate Labour manifesto that gave him a boost.  Along with a disciplined campaign where he stuck to the script.

I guess you must have forgotten that Mulcair and Horwath lost.  Both trying to outLiberal the Liberals.

As opposed to Jack's radical platform of "Ottawa is broken" and "we'll find you a family doctor"?   Right.  I do apologize though for Mulcair running on a more progressive platform than Jack with establishing a new national social program.  Oh, that's right... it wasn't to be created by a magic socialist wand overnight while the Liberals promised to dash out more cash.  I guess that makes the Liberals so far left to the NDP... 

Hunky_Monkey

Michael Moriarity wrote:

I'm having a hard time controlling my laughter after reading posts 121 and 122. Hunky_Monkey seems to think that nothing has changed since 2011, and that trotting out the Layton platform one more time will be the charm. Good luck with that, pal.

"But Bernie and Corbyn lost", he wails, as if they didn't each ignite an explosion of political activity by previously uninvolved citizens. An explosion the consequences of which in the U.S. and U.K. are yet to be determined. The big thing they have in common is that they made an offer to voters which included breaking the neo-liberal economic rules in ways that were considered "politically impossible" by people like Hunky_Monkey until actual elections proved that they have huge appeal to many people who had previously given up on politics.

None of these things would ever have happened if the so-called moderate left had been able to prevent it. If they get to choose who the next NDP leader is, we can forget about anything interesting happening in the next federal election. They think that Jagmeet can out-Justin Justin, but they can't imagine actual issues motivating anybody but the "socialist left". Follow these guys, and you might as well join the LPC.

There's far more to elections than thinking you can run on a far left socialist platform and every voter will come running.  That gives me the biggest laugh at people like yourself living in a bubble.  And now things have changed since 2011?  I thought things have changed since the worldwide recession?  You keep moving the goal posts since Jack's growth under a banal platform was post worldwide recession.  Interesting. 

For the record, I never said anything about rehashing Jack's platform.  Nice try.  Nice assumption. 

Oh, btw, Corbyn actually toned down a lot of his old rhetoric.  Why?  And oh, his platform didn't even commit to restoring Tory cuts to welfare.  Just shameful, right?

Christ lol.

NDPP

NDP MP Apologizes For Plagiarising Parts of an Op-Ed Column

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ndp-m-apologizes-plagiarism-1.4189605

"Quebec MP Romeo Saganash lifted paragraphs nearly verbatim from 2 different sources..."

cco
josh

Wow.  Very surprised.  And disappointed.

wage zombie

Yeah I am disappointed too.  It seemed like Julian was getting better every debate.

josh

I would think Ashton and Caron would benefit the most from his withdrawl.  Ashton because there is some ideological and geographic overlap.  Caron because Julian had endorsements from a number of Quebec pols and longtime ties to the province.

josh

Peter Julian

It's with mixed feelings that I'm announcing my withdrawal from race – fund-raising results have been disappointing.

Caissa

And then there were 4.

R.E.Wood

I assume his fundraising numbers will come out, along with all the rest, later this month... His numbers must have been very low, indeed, to prompt his withdrawal. Pogo's comment (up in post #127) about Julian's supposed regional advantage obviously didn't play a factor. I felt all along that Julian was bland, a poor performer on stage (although he was getting better), and not able to connect with people on a broad basis, let alone get them excited. But he certainly added to the debates and the campaign, so I'm sorry to see him bow out. 

mark_alfred

Oh great.  After struggling with whom to support, I did finally make a donation of my sparse dollars to Julian's campaign, to now discover this.

ETA:  He will be making a recommendation for leader later in the race.

mark_alfred
mark_alfred

Ashton has released some policy on tax reform.  It's not quite as clearly laid out as Caron's was, but apparently is even more ambitious.  It brings in $40 billion more revenue, whereas Caron's proposal brings in $30 billion more revenue.

Niki Ashton's tax reform proposal:  http://www.nikiashton2017.ca/fair-taxes-for-a-just-society-une-fiscalite...

Guy Caron's tax reform proposal:  http://en.guycaron.ca/making_taxes_work

josh

They're the two best left.  ABS.

mark_alfred

Anyone But Singh?  I don't see why.  Both he and Angus are pitching the pragmatic approach.  Between those two, it simply depends upon whom people see as more saleable, if you're in the incremental change camp.  Angus has the cool laid back working class theme, whereas Singh has the youthful hard working second-gen immigrant well-dressed theme, and so, arguably, the millenial working class theme too, since retail malls are today's factories.

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