"The opposition has rediscovered that it has the majority"

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Webgear

Bookish Agrarian

 Well... we are fools for letting fools rule over us.

 

Webgear

Interested Observer wrote:
kylebailey260 wrote:

is reporting that a conservative got the call-in number for the caucus conference call, and recorded it.

 

Well.... it is nice to see security related issues are well throughout in the NDP. Lets just give the number away to everyone. If they can not keep a secret between themselves how are they supposed to run a government?  And why would the Conservatives state they recorded the NDP conference call, what a bunch of dumbasses. Whoever is running their public relations needs to be fired.

 

 

 

 

 

Bookish Agrarian

Webgear wrote:
Interested Observer wrote:
kylebailey260 wrote:

is reporting that a conservative got the call-in number for the caucus conference call, and recorded it.

 

Well.... it is nice to see security related issues are well throughout in the NDP. Lets just give the number away to everyone. If they can not keep a secret between themselves how are they supposed to run a government?  And why would the Conservatives state they recorded the NDP conference call, what a bunch of dumbasses. Whoever is running their public relations needs to be fired.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Having read as much as is available right now it isn't clear to me that this this call was not hacked into in some way.  It seems unlikely that the number was passed on.  Not only that the PMO has directly released a transcript of the call.  In otherwords the PMO has directly involved itself in a clear ethical violation of reporting a rival party's private call.  I think we can look for significant blow back on Harper with this in fact. 

 

Oh and having read a transcript of the call Robert Fife has significantly oversold this.  It is clear discussion have been going on, and I would bet with the government too on a number of what if scenarios.  That would be very, very normal.  What has happened though is that Harper handed the opposition the incentive they needed to explore this particular what if much further.

kylebailey260

Webgear wrote:

 

Well.... it is nice to see security related issues are well throughout in the NDP. Lets just give the number away to everyone. If they can not keep a secret between themselves how are they supposed to run a government? And why would the Conservatives state they recorded the NDP conference call, what a bunch of dumbasses. Whoever is running their public relations needs to be fired.

 

 

I don't have a huge problem with the NDP not being super secure with their call-in number. The fundamentals of democracy should be founded upon the idea that parties can meet without spying on each other NOT on the ability of parties to meet without snooping for bugs, or making sure that their number has floated into someone's hands, who is then recording it.

 If say, we took this back to a situation before conference calls were commonplace, then the NDP caucus would have been meeting in a physical room, and some con would have figured out which room, and hidden behind some door/eavesdropped through the wall and recorded it all.

 

The NDP shouldn't need to double-check that someone is recording their meetings...they ought to be able assume that rival political parties aren't eavesdropping. 

martin dufresne

"Whoever is running their public relations needs to be fired." Maybe that person figured that this indiscretion - and separation pay to not make any more - was the most lucrative alternative, as the CP payroll is about to be severely cut back...?

bush is gone ha...

 Brian White is right about harper pulling a nixon.

wait till the dust settles... 

---------------------------------------------------------

why is it that polling booths look like cattle chutes?

madmax

Wink

Interested Observer wrote:

Greens want a progressive coalition just as much as the rest of us, if not more so. Strategically this is incredibly important for their continued existance and prosperity, possibly more so than the financing issue, although that is now basically dealt with anyway.

That's good, because as soon as this coalition gets through a fiscal stimulus package and other good things for the citizens of this country, then I would expect that they eliminate party funding from the public trough. Because it is the right thing to do. Harper was merely trying to kill the LPC and do little else, as opposed to an honest discussion on election funding reform. The coalition can work on a better system at a later date. First things first.  Canadians.

Interested Observer Interested Observer's picture

How is public funding a bad thing? Even the Americans have a public financing system. It ensures that the voices of all parties can be heard so that voters can be properly informed. Nothing wrong with that at all!

Webgear

kylebailey260 wrote:

I don't have a huge problem with the NDP not being super secure with their call-in number. The fundamentals of democracy should be founded upon the idea that parties can meet without spying on each other NOT on the ability of parties to meet without snooping for bugs, or making sure that their number has floated into someone's hands, who is then recording it.

 If say, we took this back to a situation before conference calls were commonplace, then the NDP caucus would have been meeting in a physical room, and some con would have figured out which room, and hidden behind some door/eavesdropped through the wall and recorded it all.

The NDP shouldn't need to double-check that someone is recording their meetings...they ought to be able assume that rival political parties aren't eavesdropping. 

 

I have to disagree with you. It appears the NDP have no concept of security, if they want to be the governing party of Canada, they have shown themselves incapable on this issue alone.  

 

Yes they should have made sure their discussion was not being monitored, it is their responsibility to ensure that their discussions are kept private, if they are not going to provide their own security why should anyone else do it for them.

 

I agree that fundamentals of democracy is that you do not spy on your opponents however we all know that each party spies on all the other parties.

 

Tommy_Paine

Of course, I suppose one might not want to get caught doing it, but from the election on, a good politician would be planning out contingencies. 

 And one of those contingencies would be the notion of a coalition government.

Now, the idea being put forward by the Conservatives is that this was going to happen anyway, the Economic Misstatement was just a pretext.

To which I say, "So?"

Typical Tories.  They like to play hardball until they get one high and inside, then it's run home to mommy time.

 

 

abnormal

Let's see if I understand.  The Conservatives form a minority government which, because of the way the first past the post system works, got a relatively small share of the popular vote.

So the idea is to replace it with a coalition government that no-one voted for???

Something does not compute.

kylebailey260

Webgear wrote:

I agree that fundamentals of democracy is that you do not spy on your opponents however we all know that each party spies on all the other parties.

 

 

I'm calling you on doublespeak. Or you admitting that the cons got caught attacking the fundamentals of democracy. Either way, the story hear is that the cons got caught doing it...by releasing the results themselves.

Also, Kady'O'Malley has a hilarious point up at Macleans that Jim Flaherty apparently never learnt that the opposition parties had concerns about pay equity...despite all three parties bringing it up in the house (apparently Gilles brought it up like 9 times). But they did know what was going in the NDP's caucus.

madmax

Interested Observer wrote:
How is public funding a bad thing? Even the Americans have a public financing system. It ensures that the voices of all parties can be heard so that voters can be properly informed. Nothing wrong with that at all!
 I see where your priority is....

Fidel

The Harpers want absolute power or to at least govern like they have it. And Canadians still don't trust them with even a phony majority since Lyin' Brian. It's the democracy gap. 

Tommy_Paine

I think Webgear is right about security, really.

I remember when I was on a bargaining committee, and being a union rep.  I never said sensitive stuff in a place that could be bugged.  Seems a little paranoid-- I had no reason to suspect that the HR people would do such a thing, but it's the only way to make sure.

 

madmax

abnormal wrote:

Let's see if I understand.  The Conservatives form a minority government which, because of the way the first past the post system works, got a relatively small share of the popular vote.

So the idea is to replace it with a coalition government that no-one voted for???

Something does not compute.

The coalition, will make a minority parliment work without defeating the government in 8 days. This will save the tax payer another 300million. It is the Prime Ministers responsibility to make parliment work. He didn't, or he failed to gain the confidence of the MAJORITY of the MPs in the house. The Coalition will have to received the Confidence of the MAJORITY of the MPs in the house to function. 

A coalition is better then an election. The will of the house that Canadians built will decide what happens, hopefully wiht the GG blessing.

 

 

Webgear

kylebailey260 wrote:

 

I'm calling you on doublespeak. Or you admitting that the cons got caught attacking the fundamentals of democracy. Either way, the story hear is that the cons got caught doing it...by releasing the results themselves.

 

 

Yes, the Conservatives got caught attacking the fundamentals of democracy however lets not kid ourselves all parties spy on each other.

 

Call it research or whatever you want but all parties have detailed knowledge on what the others are up too. I bet the NDP have a few secrets on the other parties up their sleeves, just waiting for a rainy day to be released.

 

There are fundamentals of democracy and then there are realties of democracy.

 

Fidel

Tommy_Paine wrote:

I think Webgear is right about security, really.

 The Conservatives are well practiced with plotting and scheming in closed door meetings. They're better at doing that than actually running the country. Same with the Liberals

madmax

Tommy_Paine wrote:

I think Webgear is right about security, really.

I remember when I was on a bargaining committee, and being a union rep.  I never said sensitive stuff in a place that could be bugged.  Seems a little paranoid-- I had no reason to suspect that the HR people would do such a thing, but it's the only way to make sure.

 

 Has anyone heard the tape? What I have read, I haven't seen the smoking gun of some kind of conspiracy. Infact, what CP has reported suggests nothing that would make a story.  So whats the story?

Depending on the spin, the CPC have to make a mountain from a molehill, but it could well and good do them more harm. They have the bully techniques of Bush and the honour of Nixon. 

Whos coming out on top? 

 

 

 

Webgear

madmax wrote:
Tommy_Paine wrote:

I think Webgear is right about security, really.

 Has anyone heard the tape? What I have read, I haven't seen the smoking gun of some kind of conspiracy. Infact, what CP has reported suggests nothing that would make a story.  So whats the story?

Depending on the spin, the CPC have to make a mountain from a molehill, but it could well and good do them more harm. They have the bully techniques of Bush and the honour of Nixon. 

Whos coming out on top? 

 

Of course Webgear is right. Tongue out

 

I think Harper will come out on top, he may lose this battle but he will win the war.

Parkdale High Park

1. The tape is not especially damning, except in one respect: it suggests that this was planned well in advance, helping the Tories frame this as a power-grab. It still isn't that incendiary.

 

2. On the other hand the "spying" charge is kind of diminished by the fact that the Tory MP was invited to the conversation by accident (in fact that charge can backfire and make the NDP look bad for screwing up).  

melovesproles

Quote:

I think Harper will come out on top, he may lose this battle but he will win the war.

The 'Harper is a strategic genius' cult will die hard. But, the fact remains, the Cons would have sailed through their first year of governing if it hadn't been for his "tactical briiliance", maybe this was all on purpose, and the Cons are too scared to govern right now during an economic crisis. But for Conservatives that want to govern, they have one choice, get rid of Harper.

The Bish

abnormal wrote:

Let's see if I understand.  The Conservatives form a minority government which, because of the way the first past the post system works, got a relatively small share of the popular vote.

So the idea is to replace it with a coalition government that no-one voted for???

Something does not compute.

Are we to assume, then, that you believe that countries around the world which have proportional representation, and very frequently see coalitions, are undemocratic?  The fact of the matter is that in a minority parliament there are three possibilities:

1. Let the strongest minority govern as though they had a majority, by supporting their bills even if you disagree with them.  Not at all democratic, because it gives a small portion of the population a say over what happens to everyone else.  It's basically oligarchy.

2. Let the strongest minority party govern as though they had a majority, by refusing to vote and thus letting their bills technically pass while putting on a show of disapproval.  Not at all democratic.

3. Two or more of the minority parties come together to form a coalition.  Since this option is equally available to all the parties, and represents the largest bloc of interests possible, it is the most democratic option.  Keep in mind that there was no good reason that the Conservatives couldn't have gained the support of one of the other parties; they just didn't bother trying, because Stephen Harper wants to be king.

EDIT: In retrospect that post was probably not worth replying to in so much detail since it's basically a Conservative talking point copy/pasted.

Tommy_Paine

  "The Conservatives are well practiced with plotting and scheming in closed door meetings. They're better at doing that than actually running the country. Same with the Liberals"

 

 I remember my first involvement in an election for the NDP.  The guy who maintained our lists of supporters,  sometime supporters, etc, insisted on being carefull what got thrown out in the garbage.

I thought that paranoid at the time, but he told me that in previous elections, he'd caught people he'd seen working in the Liberal campaign going through our garbage at night.

And that's when Liberal Charlie Turner had a lock on the ridding. 

Webgear

 

I think the point is that none of the parties talked about forming a coalition government 10 weeks ago, if they had maybe voters would have chosen a coalition style government.

 

During the election the liberals, Bloc were seen as mortal enemies of the NDP, they were the scum of the earth, nothing better than dead cattle thieves however a few short months later they seem to be ok enough to form a coalition government with.

 

These are strange and interesting times, where organizations are willing to sell their souls in order to gain power.

surfdoc surfdoc's picture

How does a Tory MP get invited to a conference call between the NDP and the Bloq?

 

Quote:
A spokesman for the Prime Minister's Office said there was nothing
unethical about covertly listening in to the private NDP deliberations,
taping those discussions and releasing them to the media

 

Yup, nothing unethical about it at all.... </sarcasm>

Quote:
The tape is not especially damning, except in one respect: it suggests
that this was planned well in advance, helping the Tories frame this as
a power-grab. It still isn't that incendiary.

Perhaps I'm confused, but if the conference call was on Saturday, how was it planned well in advance?

Webgear

Fidel wrote:

 The Conservatives are well practiced with plotting and scheming in closed door meetings. They're better at doing that than actually running the country. Same with the Liberals

 

Well it appears the NDP where doing some plotting and scheming also however they appear not be on the same level as the Liberals and Conservatives but they are getting better.

 

 

Bookish Agrarian

This incident has revealed to me the fundamental ignorance a whole whack of people have about how our parliamentary system was designed to work and works in practice.  It is very dispiriting.  For example there is this not getting the difference between an electoral coalition and a parlimentary one.  The two are entirely different and completely unrelated in the Canadian parliamentary context. 

wage zombie

abnormal wrote:

Let's see if I understand.  The Conservatives form a minority government which, because of the way the first past the post system works, got a relatively small share of the popular vote.

So the idea is to replace it with a coalition government that no-one voted for???

 

Uh, no.  A bunch of candidates were elected by their constituents to represent their interests in Parliament.  The representatives who will form the Government were all voted in by their consituents.

 

Government is controlled by the votes of a majority of the MPs... does that compute?

melovesproles

Quote:

I think the point is that none of the parties talked about
forming a coalition government 10 weeks ago, if they had maybe voters
would have chosen a coalition style government.

 

No offesnse, because I usually like reading your posts, but your just spewing Conservative talking points now.  Layton clearly indicated during the election that he would be open to a coalition.  There is nothing undemocratic about coalition governments, and they are negotiated after elections occur.  What is undemocratic is expecting to run Parliament anyway you like when you only have a minority of our elected representatives supporting you.  I cheered Martin getting taught this lesson, and I'm happy to see Harper and his apologists get schooled as well.

 

Tommy_Paine

"I think the point is that none of the parties talked about forming a coalition government 10 weeks ago, if they had maybe voters would have chosen a coalition style government."

I could argue that properly informed voters should know that a coalition government is something that could result in any election. In fact, I think quite a number of voters thought this a viable prospect before the end of the election. 

"During the election the liberals, Bloc were seen as mortal enemies of the NDP, they were the scum of the earth, nothing better than dead cattle thieves however a few short months later they seem to be ok enough to form a coalition government with."  

You are confusing compaigning with politics.  Wink   I agree I wouldn't want to climb in bed with the Liberals, but for strategic reasons.  In principle, I wouldn't want to climb in bed with the Liberals either.  Or the Conservatives.  But, what if there was a gun to my head, and I had to climb into bed with one or the other?

Okay,  I'd choose the bullet, but I'm funny that way.  Most wouldn't. Laughing

 "Well it appears the NDP where doing some plotting and scheming also however they appear not be on the same level as the Liberals and Conservatives but they are getting better. "

Well.  It's about time we started bringing a gun to a gun fight.

 

Webgear

Melovesproles

 

No offense taken. I am pissed off at all parties, I had a rant(s) in another thread about what I witnessed on Parliament hill on Thursday night.

 

http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/viable-alternative-government-...

 

I want an open and honest government that will work for the people and not for the political parties. I do not want backroom deals, I want open policy.

 

I want relief for the people of Canada not for banks and large out of date car manufactures, I want a green policy that makes Canada a leader for technology for the rest of the world. I want Canada to be a leader in world issues.

 

I hope that Harper gets taught his lesson also, I hope all the parties get taught a lesson. I hope there is another election and a several fringe parties take the balance of power.

 

(sorry if I have not be cleared, I am not trying to use talking points.)

Webgear

Tommy_Paine wrote:

 "Well it appears the NDP where doing some plotting and scheming also however they appear not be on the same level as the Liberals and Conservatives but they are getting better. "

Well.  It's about time we started bringing a gun to a gun fight.

I always bring a second firearm, a knife and a grenade when I am going to a gun fight, it is always better to be more prepared then our enemies.

I do not believe the NDP are that prepared.

I agree with the rest of our post. I have no more counterpoints.

 

Stockholm

"Stockholm does have a lot of good commentary on politics that I find myself often agreeing with also, greens excluded though. Wink"

Aw shucks!!!

 I don't see what the story is with the taping (apart from the issue of Tory spying). Of course Layton and duceppe talk to each other. Just as there are conversations that undoubtedly take place between Harper and Layton and Harper and dion and Dion and Layton and Dion and Duceppe etc... is this supposed to surprise anyone???

 I for one am glad to know that the opposition parties have been on the ball enough to talk in advance about what to do if the Tories try to pull a fast one. Good on them!

Cueball Cueball's picture

My view is that coalition is actually an essential and traditional mode of governing in a parlimentary democracy. It harkens back to the time when parties were looser, and representatives, representatives of the constituencies, not the parties they run for. It's the kind of thing that is normal and expected in a system with proportional representation. I think its a perfectly sensible way for representatives to "represent" their riding.

If riding representatives think it is best to represent their constituents by being in a coalition then so be it.

NorthReport

Harper is not going to go gracefully into the night.

If he pirogues Parliament, which I am almost positive he will do, how long can he keep Parliament from sitting, to avoid his government falling from a confidence vote?

Peter3

Webgear wrote:

 

Yes, the Conservatives got caught attacking the fundamentals of democracy however lets not kid ourselves all parties spy on each other.

 

Call it research or whatever you want but all parties have detailed knowledge on what the others are up too. I bet the NDP have a few secrets on the other parties up their sleeves, just waiting for a rainy day to be released.

 

There are fundamentals of democracy and then there are realties of democracy.

 

 

Not sure what experience you're drawing on, but having worked on an awful lot of campaigns at various levels I have never seen anything more ominous than members of other parties showing up at fundraisers or rallies to check them out. This is all done openly, and for the most part good-naturedly. 

I don't know anybody who would tolerate eavesdropping on another party's private calls or emails as part of a campaign, if only because it would inevitably come back to bite you.

On a separate point, it seems to me that there is a subtext to all this that has not had much attention.  Mr. Harper is vulnerable in ways he has not ever been as leader.  Rumours of angry party operatives are rife.

It seems to me that one serious potential coalition-killer would be Mr. Harper's resignation as Conservative leader.  If things spin out of control, expect to hear calls for him to go from within his party. At this point nobody has processed how thoroughly damaged he is, but I'm having a very hard time seeing any route out of this that doesn't leave him permanently wounded. Even having this discussed openly would cripple the Conservatives for months at the very least. Barring some Hail Mary move in the days ahead, I think he's done.

Hmmm. There's an opportunity for mischief in the blogosphere here I hadn't considered before. Gotta go...

Cueball Cueball's picture

They even tried half black cats and half white cats. And they called that coalition.

surfdoc surfdoc's picture

Quote:
Just as there are conversations that undoubtedly take place between
Harper and Layton and Harper and dion and Dion and Layton and Dion and
Duceppe etc... is this supposed to surprise anyone???

Quote:
As leaders of the opposition parties, we are well aware that, given
the Liberal minority government, you could be asked by the Prime
Minister to dissolve the 38th Parliament at any time should the House
of Commons fail to support some part of the government’s program. We
respectfully point out that the opposition parties, who together
constitute a majority in the House, have been in close consultation.
We
believe that, should a request for dissolution arise this should give
you cause, as constitutional practice has determined, to consult the
opposition leaders and consider all of your options before exercising
your constitutional authority. Your attention to this matter is
appreciated.
- Harper, 2004

Of course conversations have taken place.

 

NorthReport

Yea, let's go back to the good old days and have the secretive corporate lobbyists decide things for us. Public funding of political parties is here to stay.

Yes, Harper will now prorogue Parliament in an attempt to avoid being defeated. Then we'll have a waiting game.

But just like the Republicians in the USA, Harper is done like dinner.  Who they will pick to replace him, and quite frankly, who cares.

Harper has now made the biggest blunder of his political career, will never have his majority government now, and will go down like Joe Clark did, another political laughing stock of the nation.

Dion will become prime minister and who cares about the Liberal leadership now either. The focus needs to be on getting Harper and his whingers out of there. We have a serious possibility of doing so, and I sincerely hope that the Liberals don't blow it now.

Steve who?  Laughing

 http://www.thestar.com/article/546108

 Harper a student of Joe Clark's 1979 budget blunder

 

 

 

 

 

NorthReport

Is this the authentic version which is on Taylor's website - no biggie here. Just basic political stuff that goes on every day with every party. Definitely a tempest in a teapot, apart from the aspect of it being taped, but let's not get sidtracked by it. Let's keep our eye on the big picture here, and boot these scallywags out.

 

 "Judy: Judy, and when I hear the beep stopping, I’m going to start the meeting.
Hello?

Judy: Hang on everybody, you don’t even need to give your name yet, I’m going to do a check in a second.
Hello?

Judy: Hi there, it’s okay, it’s Judy, we’re all set.
Okay Judy.

Jack: Hi Judy, we’re all, we got a bunch of caucus members here, we’ll just wait for your instructions, we’ll leave it on mute in the meantime.

Judy: Okay. Alright, I think I’ll start, uhm, it’s Judy, we’ve got exactly one hour and no more. We’re going to run this meeting very tight. I want everyone to put your phones on mute, also please do not anytime during this call, put your line on hold, because that causes a noise for everybody. We’re going to give an update, an over view from Jack, a report on what’s happening procedurally from the House, generally from Libby, and then thirdly a overview on the issue of platform and policy, from Kathleen, and then a chance for each caucus member to give a very succinct and brief point to indicate their concerns or issues that they would like to see raised by our team as we prepare any further documents. So, as you all know, we have our next meeting as our regular meeting Monday at ten o’clock, in Ottawa, we will have a chance there to have a more extensive roundtable that in through the week, so please don’t feel you have all the time for questions and concerns, but we will deal with that on Monday, so without further ado, let me call on Jack who must be very tired and going non-stop for the last three days, we appreciate what you’re doing Jack, and I think we’re all excited to get an update. Thanks, Jack.

Jack: Thank you very much, uh, keep the myth alive that I’m exhausted and working incredibly hard (laughter) I appreciate you relaying that, I was asleep by ten o’clock last night, and had a very good night, a very good sleep, and that was my Friday night. So, an update on where we are, the, uh, we’re in the middle of a very historic time, and we’re playing a key role in it, in some ways a catalytic role actually, because as we think back, we’ll realize that nobody really imagined that it would be possible for the Bloc Quebecois, the Liberal party of Canada ever to enter into any kind of a discussion around the future of the country and it turned out that we were the glue, and spotted and prepared for the opportunity, and had taken the steps that were required so that when that opportunity arose, which was when Mr. Harper made his disastrous strategic error, by not providing stimulus to the economy, and instead playing political games, we were able to move, and things began to move very quickly, however, many obstacles remain in our way, and so we’re in a real battle now. The negotiating process, I am, by the way in very very regular touch with the leader of the Liberal party, and the leader of the Bloc, frequently every day. At the same time, negotiation processes are underway, and in fact as we speak, our negotiating team that I’ve named to meet with the Liberal negotiating team are discussing the mechanics of a coalition government, and the form that it would take, the structure of cabinet, the way in which the logistics of a coalition government with the Liberals and the New Democrats would work, the key roles, and dispute resolution mechanisms, timelines, et cetera.
05:23 -
All of the logistics issues that you would expect would be a part of such a discussion are being negotiated now we hope that that part of the negotiations would be completed today. Our negotiating team consists of Brian Topp, who negotiated as a senior member of the Romano team in Saskatchewan, negotiating a similar coalition with the Liberal party there, and of course you know Brian is our campaign co-chair director. Ann McGrath, in her chief of staff role, she’s also wearing the president of the party hat still, and so she’s got several hats on at the moment. Ed Broadbent, Alan Blakely, Dawn Black, as a member of caucus I’ve selected to participate in this process, someone that I happen to know is also respected and trusted by key Liberals, Tom Mulcair, as our Quebec lieutenant, and Carl Belanger. Tom and Carl are the negotiating team with the Bloc team, and Brian and Dawn Black are negotiating with the Liberal team. We’re starting with two party talks, this will resolve itself into a tripartite conversation before the weekend is up, and the goal is to produce by the end of the weekend, an agreement on the machinery of the coalition, which would be signed off, particularly by the NDP and Liberals, but endorsed by the Bloc, and an agreement on policy program for the coalition, that would have three party agreement. I can’t go into the details on all of this stuff, particularly the machinery, but it’s in the process of negotiation, and we could consume an awful lot of time speculating about it, so I don’t propose that we spend that time today on this particular matter of question. But instead, there’s a golden opportunity today, for you to provide input on the policy matters, you can be assured that we have looked at our program, we’ve looked at our platform, we’ve looked at what I’ve been saying about economic stimulus, we’ve been in close consultations with the leadership of the labour movement around some of their key ideas and they’ve been providing terrific support, including at a high-level early morning meeting this morning, so much of what you would have want to see, it’s probably already there, you’ll hear a bit more about it later, but there’s an opportunity to touch base with all of you, because in the end, you’re going to be intimately a part of the delivery of all of this, and so that’s why we’re having this meeting at this point in time.
08:32 -

Jack: I made a list Judy, so I’ll take a whack and you’ll say if I’ve missed any…

Judy: Ya. Meetings, confidentiality, what can be said. Go ahead.

Jack: First, do MP’s have to be in Ottawa until we have a better sense of the potential confidence motion stakes. You have to remain agile. And with Ottawa being the base. Uh, and so when you’re organising your community meetings make sure there’s a speaker phone facility, or a webcam. Secondly, I believe that we should get immediately into the driver’s seats on organizing these community meetings, you have people who worked on your campaign who are exactly the kind of people, whether in labour movements, labour councils, uh, childcare groups, environmental groups, these are people that need to be pulled together. You get them together, and then they’ll take it from there, it doesn’t have to be your meeting, it shouldn’t be your meeting, but of course you’ll be there as the MP, and you’re part of the coalition, and you’re consulting with the community to make sure they’re open, so if anyone wants to come and protest and say it’s a bad idea, be there to make a real news event out of it, the youth comes with the emotion in favour of the coalition and an action plan coming from Thursday night, particularly focused on the weekend, with petitioning, and phone in shows, and god knows what else, a letter writing, one of the goals here is to of course, recruit as many names, addresses, emails, phone numbers as possibly can, because this coalition will need the support of these people, and then we will need their support when we get an election. Now, will there be an independent NDP caucus, yes. BQ stability issues, worry about BQ potentially being off-side, we’re taking that very much into account.  We have numerous strategies designed to deal with it, I actually believe they’re the least of our problems, but in case I’m wrong, let’s just say we have strategies, this whole thing would not have happened if the moves hadn’t have been made with the Bloc to lock them in early, because you couldn’t put three people together in one, in three hours.  The first part was done a long time ago, I won’t go into details, and the managing expectations, lists from groups, actually, the wisest people in the groups are already coming to the conclusion, some of them are in direct contact, saying probably wouldn’t be too helpful if we had long lists of stuff, right? What we really want is just to get Harper out and get the new group in because it’s going to be a hell of a lot better for everything we believe in, correct? Correct. So let’s stay on that track, and not start debating whether or not it’s twenty five percent change or fifteen percent change over here, let’s get them out, on the basis of unity not the basis of division. Somebody asked about Bill Casey, absolutely, in the game, uh, on confidentiality, we now have to get out and defend the idea of the coalition. This is not a secret that it’s been discussed, the various elements that are in it, you can say it’s all about getting the economy going, and transforming the economy for the twenty first century, use everything that you’ve seen in my speeches up until now, that you’ve all been using so well particularly when I’ve seen you on panels, and by the way, our team on panels, everybody, staff and MPs, rocking, absolutely rocking doing us proud, so yes, there is a coalition, we’re fighting for it, we’re trying to make it happen, we think it’s a good idea for Canada, the majority of Canadians voted to go in a different direction than Harper’s taking us, you can’t trust him, no matter anything, throw him out. What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it? He was given a minority, and he refused to work with the other parties, he had 38% of the vote and he’s trying to govern like he had 100% of the power, he’s the one who’s got democracy wrong, not us. So do not be defensive, to work among what we are doing is to give effect to the wishes of the majority of Canadians, have no doubt about that. The coalition for Canada, I love the idea, it could be a deal-breaker for the Bloc (laughter) so if we don’t go, we call it “The Coalition for Canada and Quebec,” (lots of laughter).  Well, welcome to the real world of….that’s not funny

Jack: And let me come to, I know it’s complicated, so let’s just be wise about how we put this thing together. I think that there were many good comments that were developed from this, right from Aboriginal, which was on our mind, right through to many of these other suggestions and we will do our very best to put this together. And I’ll just say one other thing about the issue of the Bloc: nothing could be better for our country, than to have the fifty members who’ve been elected to separate Quebec to actually helping to make Canada a better place. I think we just approach it on that basis, and say we’re willing to make Canada happen, here’s other things that we’re going to be investing in and transforming together, they’re willing to work with us, we’ll accept that offer. What will be important to point out is that this will be an NDP-Liberal coalition, which is supported by the Bloc, with policy ideas that the coalition is bringing forward. Okay? And that’s going to be helpful to you in your dealing with those that have concerns, because they, you can see where Harper’s going here, he’s going to say it’s the socialists and the separatists and the opportunists getting together. You know? Those are their talking points, and so we just need to push back. I want to thank everybody for the input, I would get going this weekend on getting groups together, start talking about organizing those Thursday meetings, act as the catalyst to make it happen, and then just let it go, it’ll roar, and it’ll be very exciting. If you’re in a larger city, and there’s several of you, or if you’re in the largest city and you’re on your own, act as the catalyst anyway, chances are there’s a bunch of Liberals in the other ridings on whom we want pressure placed, as I mentioned at the outset of the conversation. I guess we’re at the end.

Judy: I just want to add one thing, and that is so the major thing is here that the message we’re focused on the message, so that’s not confidential, what’s confidential is strategy, the discussion, details, the speculation about the other parties and their motivation and what they will or they won’t do, we should not talk at all about war rooms, or campaigns in that sense. We’re building, trying to create a coalition government that will be a Liberal-NDP coalition that will be supported by the Bloc and that’s the message that we want to get out, nothing about the discussions in the background, and when in doubt, call, probably Brad, and Brad on that issue and on the whole issue of the campaign, and organizing meetings, people will want to reach you quickly, what’s the best way?

Jack Harris: Judy, Jack Harris here, I know it’s a structure question, but I’m at a loss at this point to know whether we’re talking about a short-term, quick economic stimulus coalition, or are we talking about something that could last two or three years, this is kind of important in our own minds, as well because aside from economic stimulus of course, this coalition will have to govern on every part of the government, of the legislative of the -

Judy: Okay, let me ask Jack to answer that and then Brad, you give the best contact information.

Jack Layton: Longer term. Not short term.

Judy: Now, Brad, you’re going to be in demand, what’s the best way to get to you quickly?

Brad: For folks that are going to be holding panels that we’re setting up, we’re going to be briefing you and your media office, for your press secretaries, the press secretaries have been divided into thirds, so every member of caucus has been assigned, so those folks are going to be available to you, and working very closely with me, and I discourage anyone from phoning me, the smartest move would be to give me as much heads-up as possible, I’m on a panel in two minutes, is highly unhelpful, and I will fail you miserably, and I know some times that situation has to happen and it’s understandable, but obviously calling me on my cell is the fastest way or by sending me an email, at brad@ndp.ca

Judy: Alright, and is it you, not just on panels, organizing meetings, events, here at the grassroots level, who’s the best person?

Brad: It will not be me, I will not be able to assist with your meetings on the Thursday night, we will assign a member of the team to that."

 

http://www.stephentaylor.ca/

 

 

remind remind's picture

 Myth Busting

Largest myth in this thread is the one that states that the populace of Canada did not vote for a coalition government. I would say this is patently false, so much so, that I cannot believe it was even postulated here, feeding this pap to the democracy challenged CPC supporters is one thing, but here? And some even agreed, amazing really considering that;

CANADIANS have voted in 3 successive MINORITY governments.

That alone, says that indeed the majority of CANADIANS want a non-partisan co-operative government that will function together for the good of all and that Canadians are NOT trusting any one party with the absolute control. If it takes a coalition of the MAJORITY to do it. Then that is what it will take. In truth, Canadians have voted for a non-partisan governing of Canada, 3 times.

The second myth is that people should be shrugging off Harper's gestapo actions in listening in on and recording the opposition party's conference calls and then releasing them to a media source. People should NOT be shrugging this off, people should be outraged, we have a economic crisis on our hands, and a collapsing government. Harper and his his MP's should be hammering out deals with the Opposition and trying to restore economic order. But instead, the only thing Harper can think of doing is to listen in on other parties phone conversations. This media release came from the PMO"s office for fuck's sake, one cannot say dictator loudly and longly enough.

Then interestingly, there is myths contained within this myth. A mythical notion that somehow it is the NDP's fault for allowing this to happen, and that it is no biggie in a democracy all the parties spy, so the PMO's office can too. BS, there should be no reason for political parties to spy on one another at this level of a democracy, and especially not a ruling government breaking privacy rights contained in the Charter, say nothing of the breaching of ethics laws in doing such a thing.

The third myth is that the NDP having ben planning this for a long time. WTH? Government has only been in session for a couple of weeks, and nothing in the transcript suggests anything occured between the NDP and Bloc prior to government sittng for the 1st session. So at most they may have been casually talking, or throwing ideas out there, for a whole 2 weeks.

The fourth myth is anyone here, or elsewhere, suggesting anti-democratic actions in the NDP's and Bloc's talking, if indeed they did talk prior. There is not a damn thing anti-democratic in such actions, it indeed would show a high level of non-partisanship for the good of the Canadians. Moreover, it may well have been a 3 way off the record conversation, prior to the Throne Speech even. 

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"watching the tide roll away"

Tommy_Paine

 "I always bring a second firearm, a knife and a grenade when I am going to a gun fight, it is always better to be more prepared then our enemies."

Yours is a foxhole I wouldn't mind sharing.

 

NorthReport

We don't get to see many articles like this in that right-wing excuse for a newspaper do we? You know who I mean -  the great moralists who defind a hood like Conrad Black and his ilk.

 Don Martin: Harper and his pride in surrender mode

"But the bottom line was that Stephen Harper made a serious mistake when he ignored his chief of staff and pleas from several ministers not to include in the fiscal update the partisan death of a program that gives political parties $1.95 a year for every vote received in the previous election.

He faced a wall of condemnation from not only all the usual suspects, but his supporters as well. It was such an obvious political sabotage mission that nobody ever seriously believed it was a cost-savings move.

Of course, if Stephen Harper's aim was wanted to sow mischief in a Liberal leadership now being renegotiated, contaminate the goodwill of a Parliament where he had pledged to play nice, fabricate a needless constitutional crisis and trigger a pointless election with potentially dangerous economic consequences, all for the stealth-like purpose of achieving his majority, it may become mission accomplished if his opponents force fed-up Canadians to the polls for the second time in a calendar year.

But creating such deliberate chaos for craven political purposes is, hopefully, beyond the scope of even Mr. Harper's cunning genius. So what we're seeing now is the end of that fearless bravado that Harper personified with such aloof ease. He's been reduced in status to that of a mere political mortal, scrambling to save his skin as a bully suddenly vulnerable to defeat from his weakling political rivals -- and from inside his own party."

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http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2008/11/30/212346.aspx

Vansterdam Kid

I think it was amateurish of the NDP to allow themselves to be spied on. But nothing they said was particularly incindiary or unreasonable in a minority parliament.

 What I think is most interesting about this little leak is the media response to it, at least at Macleans. It seems to be negative and there are comparisons of Harper with Nixon. What I think this shows is that the Conservatives have let the media narrative escape from their grasp, which for the most part, they've held since their 2006 election. I think they're running scared.

Now the opposition can't get too confident. I think they need to be less amateurish in many ways. The bugging is just one of them, as is the fact that they'd be so aversley affected by the funding issue. I don't think Harper will "win the war" so long as he's still around. He's become a lightening rod.

wage zombie

remind wrote:

Largest myth in this thread is the one that states that the populace of Canada did not vote for a coalition government.

 

Yeah, voters don't even vote for governments, they vote for representatives. 

janfromthebruce

As Dr. Dawg put it, Layton [is being] accused of smart politics.

So let me get this straight.

Jack Layton, foreseeing a time when a progressive coalition of opposition parties would be a go, smooths the way with the Bloc Québécois beforehand. Here's a transcript of a conference call (possibly obtained criminally by the Conservatives) that lays it out.

For sure, working across difference is "smart politics" and showing "real leadership" in Coming Together Right Now:  Come TogetherThe Beatles - Come Together

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Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!

Stockholm

There have been some reports that this whole deal may not come to pass because apparently Ignatieff isn't crazy about the Liberals taking power this way and he may covertly scuttle it by having a number of Liberal Mps who support him not show up for the non-confidence vote.

IF that actually happens - will people ever forgive Iggy for scuttling this golden opportunity to dump Harper? I would think that a lot of Liberals would be very pissed off at him. But who knows.

ottawaobserver

I believe one point needs to be clarified about that conference call ... it was a Caucus meeting.  As was pointed out in the comments at Kady's blog, anyone on the hill would know that as such it was a private meeting.

NorthReport

The Liberals need to give Dion a chance here, just like they allowed Trudeau to be resurrected in '79.

Liberals need to put heat on Chretien to kick Ignatieff's ass, as well as any other Liberal who tries to screw this up. 

 I don't think many Liberals would forgive Ignatieff and this smacks of the stupidity of the Paul Martin people acting out behind the scenes. Idiots like Reid, Hurley, etc. just don't get it.

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