Our Food Industry Which Includes Our Dairy Industry is Killing Us

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lagatta4

Isn't bread with milk and egg in it called brioche?

Most challah contains egg but no milk, so observant Jews can eat it with meat or poultry.

I sometimes put olive oil in bread, but never milk or egg. I do put egg in some dough, especially for things like empanadas or calzones, to make it more elastic. But not much.

I agree that there are problems with our food industry, but some of the sources North has quoted seem cranky or poorly researched.

I'm proud to say I've never eaten a Michelina's. They do have attractive (misleading) packaging, but I've seen people eating them and they look sad indeed. Pasta is so quick and easy to cook. I certainly don't want to ban them or other junk (except perhaps from schools) but the sad thing is food deserts where there are few fresh options. There are local people working on this here as elsewhere.

Misfit Misfit's picture

Here is an article about a Jewish family dairy farm near Hamilton talking about their views on supply management.

 

http://www.cjnews.com/news/canada/threats-to-supply-management-concern-dairy-farmers

I think it is safe to say that most dairy farms our family run enterprises. There would be a lot of different jobs and Responsibilities  to running a dairy farm. 

Thet have to own a lot land to produce enough feed to feed their animals winter and summer.  that entails a lot of work all on it's own.

they have to keep their barns immaculately clean.

I am wondering if this is what the guy that Laine Lowe talked to meant when he mentioned conglometate or components to running a dairy farm.

dairy farms entail a lot of work. They are very labour intensive and they require a lot of staff to operate.

However, they are still family run enterprises  that are passed down from generation to generation. 

 

 

lagatta4

That is also true of the Skotidakis farm, but their main production is goat cheese and yoghurt, which doesn't come under supply management.

Misfit Misfit's picture

It takes about 20 or more years of apprentice work (parents assigning their children jobs to do when they are young) to learn all the skills required to running any farming operation.

A farmer is not a "farmer". A farmer is a mechanic, a welder, an electrician, a scientist, an investment speculator, a veterinarian, a carpenter, a plumber and much more.

Men from cities think that they can walk onto a farm and anyone can do it. It is that easy. And in our community, we have personally witnessed the after affects of that very kind of arrogant thinking.

A woman's husband died was a farmer. Her cousins from the city offered to help come down and seed the land  which they did.  Everybody else's crops started growing except hers. 

Her cousins came back down and without  asking anybody for advice They just went ahead and started reseeding all over again.

Other farmers told them to stop and just go home but they were arrogant and said no. So the farmers in the community got together and at night worked and fixed the problem. The next day They told the lady to send her cousins back to the city that they already fixed the problem which they had.

All the land that the community of farmers worked on and fixed, the crop germinated and she had s crop. All the land that her cousins reseeded was a complete write-off.

It takes many years if hard work to learn how to farm. 

My point is that people do not walk in off the streets with millions of dollars of pocket change and just walk into farming.

Well established urban corporations do not take over family-run farming operations and "just take over"

The knowledge, skills, abilities, and other qualifications needed to run and manage a dairy farm are taught over many years of hard work and passed down from generation to generation.

Misfit Misfit's picture

My parents were born in the 1920s and grew up on farms. they were not dairy farmers, but every farm had at least one dairy cow for personal use.

both my parents as children had to get up at 4:00 am and milk the cows and many other jobs before breakfast.

when I was little, my mother asked my dad for a cute little dairy calf that she could bond with as a baby so that she could milk it. (My mother always had to milk cows but she was afraid of them and felt intimidated by them).

Dad bought mom a little jersey black angus cross heifer named Dinah. She was a very beautiful cow but she had the attitude of a black angus which wasn't good. And mom was too busy to find the time to bond with her. Before mom knew it Dinah was ready for milking.

it was never mom who determined how much milk she needed, it was always Dinah letting mom know how much she was willing to allow mom to have.

Dinah liked to jump the fence and get into mom's garden. One day mom saw Dinah's ears sneaking through the trees and heading straight for the cabbage patch. Mom ran outside with a broom to chase Dinah out of the garden. Well, Dinah turned around and chased mom right back into the house.

Dad built the fence higher so that Dinah could not jump over it. Dinah just jumped higher. After three expansions to the height of the fence, Dad had no other recourse, he put hobbles on Dinah to stop her from jumping. Even with hobbles and a rediculously high fence, Dinah would get a rocking motion going and make a running jump and rock her way over the fence and into our garden and after that into all the neighbour's gardens in the community.

Dinah really loved cabbage. Mom said that we always knew when Dinah had raided another farm's garden because the cream was so rich.

Those were the days. 

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

Magoo, I have no idea of how it works now. And I am on board with Pondering's take. I have far more faith in the quality of our dairy products than I would have in having our market flooded with US product.

NorthReport

The lack of consumer protection in Canada is staggering. Just ask Ralph Nader about that. And the reality is no matter what consumers do to protect themselves consumers are just no match for the Madison Avenue types. Canadian Government as well as the Provinces need to seriously beef up their Consumer Protection areas by appointing committed Consumer Affairs Ministers with a sizeable budget to get Consumer Protection happening in Canada. And the less lawyers are involved the better, as we basically need Consumer Protection from lawyers as well.

NorthReport

dp

NorthReport

 

Too bad our governments both federal and provincial are abdicating their Consumer Protection responsibilities in the food industry 

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5515885

NorthReport
progressive17 progressive17's picture

Eating meat and dairy products contributes greatly to wasteful use of agricultural land which could feed a lot more people. It is the same as the environmental question. What is more important? Telling people what they should do, or directly undercutting the perpetrators using the revenge of your own wallet? 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

In BC our dairy is under supply management. However the local ownership has been severly reduced by Saputo Inc. Given that they now dominate the landscape across the nation and also own US dairy companies I wonder which side of the fence they are on in the backrooms where the negotiating is going on.

The good news is that the Saputo predators conduct their business in Quebec in French. Like Bomdardier this Quebec super corporation will get what it wants from the federal government. I presume that they will push for the highest possible coporate profits and that might be the demise of our current system.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Eating meat and dairy products contributes greatly to wasteful use of agricultural land which could feed a lot more people.

Is the real problem that we're actually out of agricultural land?

I think I've seen it suggested that raising animals for food also uses more water than raising vegetables for food.  But at the same time, we take water, filter and purify it, then defecate into it (Don't lie, bro.  You totally know you did!). 

So it doesn't really make any sense to say that a soybean crop uses 48% less water than chickens, so we can't have chicken any more, because "water".

progressive17 progressive17's picture

I heard that if we all just switched from beef to chicken it would free up half the land. Then we could build more condos!

Cody87

progressive17 wrote:

Eating meat and dairy products contributes greatly to wasteful use of agricultural land which could feed a lot more people. It is the same as the environmental question. What is more important? Telling people what they should do, or directly undercutting the perpetrators using the revenge of your own wallet? 

We produce more than enough food to feed everyone on the planet. Nobody today is starving because there isn't enough food. They starve because of imperfect distribution systems, neglect (eg. kids neglected by parents or poor neglected by society), or deliberate deprivation due to political reasons (eg. North Korea).

And even considering the few remaining above causes of starvation, having too much food kills more people globally than not having enough. Producing more food is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

progressive17 progressive17's picture

Even so, we are still producing calories and proteins inefficiently. If we use our resources more efficiently, we will have more wealth. 

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Well, no, not exactly.

It really depends on the land. If, for example, you're talking about land that has plenty of water and isn't rocky, sure. But if you're talking arid or semi-arid conditions, cold climate with a very short growing season, or very rocky, scrub conditions, then no, it's not practical to farm that land. However, that land *is* suited to pasture ruminants on - they can eat the kinds of tough, cellulose-heavy plants that tend to grow in less arable lands that we can't, and then we eat them (thereby turning the resources from unusable to usable as a food source). It's actually highly inefficient to try to produce crops in those places, and much better to raise meat.

That's not to say that you need to live on an all-beef diet - but there is a case to be made for cattle over crops in the right set of circumstances.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

It's certainly true that we humans cannot digest a great deal of cellulose that herbivores have little trouble with.

And really, we kind of dodged a bullet there.  Because if we COULD eat grass, or the leaves off trees, you can bet that someone would be urging us to.  It's bad enough that we CAN digest kale.

Misfit Misfit's picture

I like raw asparagus but hey look like little snakes, yuck!

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

And four hours later, smell like burning tires, yuck!

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

It's certainly true that we humans cannot digest a great deal of cellulose that herbivores have little trouble with.

And really, we kind of dodged a bullet there.  Because if we COULD eat grass, or the leaves off trees, you can bet that someone would be urging us to.  It's bad enough that we CAN digest kale.

I'm not entirely convinced as yet!

Chickens and pigs are also popular food sources because they eat what we don't or can't and become edible. Resources are cycled into usable resources.

I also find it interesting that people who are concerned about being green and sustainable don't acknowledge the damage farming does to ecosystems. The prairies have largely gone to farms, and the remaining prairie ecosystems are in danger of dying out - an ecosystem, btw, that depends on having ruminants on it for its survival. Before reintroduction of bison in an area of southwest Saskatchewan, the native prairie would have died had it not been for cattle farmers pasturing on it.

lagatta4

The Dutch either let kale get a frost or nowadays, simply buy it frozen and chopped up. I have no problem digesting it that way, but non-frozen kale is ... difficult.

Friends back from Scottish Highlands ... yep, not much there except sheep and some Highland cattle. I guess the crofters did grow poor crops of oats and barley, but trading is more efficient nowadays.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

I can see why kale is so popular in smoothies, though:  let the blades of the blender do the work your teeth cannot.  :)

But lacinato (black) kale is pretty good stuff.  Like a very sturdy chard, rather than the "land kelp" that regular kale is.

progressive17 progressive17's picture

If you mix kale with coconut oil it makes it easier to scoop it out into the toilet bowl.

lagatta4

Yes, I like lacinato. But still, I stick it in the freezer after washing it. And I detest most smoothies; moreover I LOATHE that word.

An exception was one made from fresh local raspberries just spinned in a blender. This was at the Jean-Talon market, where the café owners obviously had access to day-old berries that had gone a bit mushy - usually sold for making jam. That was delicious.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Long ago, at a twee little festival in Hamilton called "EarthSong", I had what I think was called an Agua Fresco.  Basically, water, a bit of ice, and a very small handful of strawberries.  It certainly wasn't a "sm--thie", but boy was it ever refreshing!

WWWTT

Cody87 wrote:

progressive17 wrote:

Eating meat and dairy products contributes greatly to wasteful use of agricultural land which could feed a lot more people. It is the same as the environmental question. What is more important? Telling people what they should do, or directly undercutting the perpetrators using the revenge of your own wallet? 

We produce more than enough food to feed everyone on the planet. Nobody today is starving because there isn't enough food. They starve because of imperfect distribution systems, neglect (eg. kids neglected by parents or poor neglected by society), or deliberate deprivation due to political reasons (eg. North Korea).

And even considering the few remaining above causes of starvation, having too much food kills more people globally than not having enough. Producing more food is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

What a load of garbage!

People who live in different regions of the world should not have to rely on people from other regions of the globe to feed them! How the fuck much will it cost to get a balanced diet to 2M people in east Africa when they have a draught?

https://reliefweb.int/report/world/global-report-food-crises-2018

WWWTT

progressive17 wrote:

Even so, we are still producing calories and proteins inefficiently. If we use our resources more efficiently, we will have more wealth. 

Agreed!

And I have mentioned this solution before here on babble, but it fell on deaf ears!

http://www.fao.org/edible-insects/en/

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
People who live in different regions of the world should not have to rely on people from other regions of the globe to feed them! How the fuck much will it cost to get a balanced diet to 2M people in east Africa when they have a draught?

The first sentence seems to suggest that people elsewhere shouldn't rely on others to feed them, but the second sentence seems to ask why those others haven't.

Quote:
And I have mentioned this solution before here on babble, but it fell on deaf ears!

Everyone was too busy gagging.

Though, for what it's worth, I did see, the other day, at "Independent City Market" (basically a Loblaw affiliate) some powdered cricket.  I doubt it'll catch on in a big way (particularly when it's more expensive than meat) but I guess for now it's the new Acai Berry, or whatever.

Here's just a random thought for anyone who'd like me to try eating meat substitutes (including insect protein):  make them cheaper than meat. 

Aren't they supposed to be more efficient?  I don't want to hear any chin music about "pork subsidies" or whatever if meat substitutes are easily two to three times the price of what they inadequately mimic.  The day I can buy Tofurkey for less than turkey is the day I might try it.  Meanwhile, I was unaware that SOYBEANS were just so expensive!  Funny that soy protein is used as a "stretcher" in cheap meat products when it's more expensive than meat.

 

WWWTT

I’ve read crickets termites and maggots are real good to eat!

The problem with the price I believe has to do with the lack of mass production. Local farms producing cricket powder on s large scale should lower the price. 

But insects consumption I believe would catch on more easily in southern countries and be more beneficial in draught prone regions

 

Misfit Misfit's picture

WWWT wrote: "I’ve read crickets termites and maggots are real good to eat!"

bon appetite! 

And please don't share that with us. I personally will restrict my protein to peanut butter, dairy products, beef, pork, fish, shrimp, poultry, bison and lamb.

Pondering

WWWTT wrote:

What a load of garbage!

People who live in different regions of the world should not have to rely on people from other regions of the globe to feed them! How the fuck much will it cost to get a balanced diet to 2M people in east Africa when they have a draught?

https://reliefweb.int/report/world/global-report-food-crises-2018

The point being made here is my not throwing out a half can of peas is not going to help starving people in Africa. 

There is no overall food shortage in the world. The problem is distribution. Eating insects in Canada will not help starving people in Africa. 

WWWTT

Pondering wrote

The point being made here is my not throwing out a half can of peas is not going to help starving people in Africa. 

There is no overall food shortage in the world. The problem is distribution. Eating insects in Canada will not help starving people in Africa. 

Never thought that you were implying that throwing some food out would hurt anyone.

However this food distribution thing is partially a myth. Food always has to be grown localy no matter where on the Earth you may live? Be it in Canada, Sudan Australia Venezeula etc etc. It makes no difference where. To ship food halway across the globe is way too expensive and is doomed with logistic problems from the word go! It is only an emergency solution.

Furthermore, relying on other distant regions to supply your nutritional needs is actually a form of control/suppression of people! Or at least has been in the past and possibly right now as we speak!

Eating insects and deriving nutrition from untraditional albeit very good sources is actually a way for people to empower themselves! I grow my own garden, I have my own fruit trees. Now they don't supply all my needs, but I really do get a thrill from knowing that I don't always have to rely on someone else for an necessity.

WWWTT

Misfit wrote:

WWWT wrote: "I’ve read crickets termites and maggots are real good to eat!"

bon appetite! 

And please don't share that with us. I personally will restrict my protein to peanut butter, dairy products, beef, pork, fish, shrimp, poultry, bison and lamb.

Hi Misfit! Sorry but I am going to share. I have to!

My advise is close your eyes, pinch your nose and open wide because like it or not, it's coming baby! LOL! 

Oh wait, what's this? Oh never mind its already here!

https://www.sbs.com.au/food/article/2017/07/26/you-could-be-accidentally...

https://nationalpost.com/life/food/the-bug-in-our-diet-throw-away-everyt...

WWWTT

Oh and by the way Misfit, please don't close your mind to the possibility of entomophagy. Diet is part of cultures and many peoples around the world include insects into their diet.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

WWWTT wrote:

Oh and by the way Misfit, please don't close your mind to the possibility of entomophagy. Diet is part of cultures and many peoples around the world include insects into their diet.

I completely agree here. I am reluctant to eat insects because of my cultural conditioning, not because of any rational argument against it. All the scientific evidence is that many insects are perfectly wholesome sources of protein and other nutrients. In my own case, if I could buy a cricket burger that looked and tasted like a soya burger, I would be able to get used to that quite easily.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

When I was a kid, I would eat an ant, if you dared me.  And if you didn't care, I'd dare you to dare me because I kind of liked eating ants.

Not a whole serving, mind you.  Just one or two.  Red preferred over black.  Thanks to the formic acid in them, they were teeny tiny little "Sour Warheads".

voice of the damned

Living where I do, I've had occassion to eat silkworm, which is often served as a sidedish in restaurants. It's not really my thing, but it doesn't disgust me, even though I'd probably be kinda nauseated if I saw a bunch of them in their natural habitat(I am a decided bug-hater).

Pogo Pogo's picture

I had lunch today with a friend who works in the Dept of Ag. Unfortunately he was in town for only a short time and the conversation on stayed on dairy for a few minutes and he has not worked there recently.  He started out with pointing out that he would attend the national meetings of the different farm groups.  The grain growers met at a Travelodge, the cattlemen met at the Sheraton and the dairy farmers met at the Chateau Laurier, which I guess was to point out the different economic status of the various groups.

Within government supply management has many critics. Even among food security advocates. The barriers to entry of course is a big thing, but also the lack of encouragement to change. The European trade deal did create a number of cracks in the armour, though mostly for premium products.

When I am in farm country pretty well anywhere I can always tell the dairy farms.  They have the new buildings.

Pondering

I want farmers to be well off. They work harder than bank managers at a job that requires at least as much knowledge and skill, probably far more. They provide an essential service. People making a couple of hundred K a year are not the problem. Aiming at them is misdirection. 

I live on a very limited income and I love milk. I drink a litre a day. I also use butter not margerine. I consider the price I pay reasonable for the product I get. Driving down prices through too much competition is just as bad as driving them up through too little. Farmers are workers. 

progressive17 progressive17's picture

Supply management disproportionately hurts the poor. This means we must support supply management, because making the poor suffer is public policy.

Pondering

progressive17 wrote:

Supply management disproportionately hurts the poor. This means we must support supply management, because making the poor suffer is public policy.

The poor aren't suffering due to supply management they are suffering due to unfettered globalization which is leading to a race to the bottom for developed countries. Everyone should be making a living wage if they work full time. In the 1970s a floor sweeper at Purina in Montreal made 16$ an hour.  The bottom of the wealthy pile is not where the big money is pooling. 

progressive17 progressive17's picture

Making the poor pay more hurts them, no matter how hard you try to weasel out of it. They are doing badly enough for all the reasons you listed, and you want to punish them more.

Pogo Pogo's picture

Pondering wrote:

I want farmers to be well off. They work harder than bank managers at a job that requires at least as much knowledge and skill, probably far more. They provide an essential service. People making a couple of hundred K a year are not Farmers are workers. 

I think you are thinking of a business model that didn't exist.  Nine families of Aunts and Uncles farmed all over Saskatchewan.  I think I have one cousin now who owns a large farm which was subsidized by a government job (governemnt jobs and the oil rigs kept many farms afloat).  It is now an industry with monstor tractors pulling impliments in a perfect pattern down to the inch (thanks to GPS technology). Volume and low cost operations are the key.  Commodity farmers are no longer workers, they are COO of a corporation.

I still believe we need to have control of our food security.  I have sat on food security committees, though they were dealing with urban issues.  I just don't know if we need to worry about farm owners (farm employees - sure). I think we need to first be thinking about our needs and the role of farms in guarantteeing them. Is there room on our store shelves for expensive cheeses from Belgium that are little different from the cheeses from Parksville or Armstrong?

lagatta4

I don't know Parksville, but  Armstrong is VERY different from good Belgian cheeses, good Québécois cheeses, and some good eastern Ontario cheeses such as Forfar that I liked very much - hope they still exist. And I've never seen a non-cow cheese from Armstrong.

Pogo Pogo's picture

I don't know if the hormones we fill our dairy cows with are much different than the hormones Americans fill their dairy cows with.

Misfit Misfit's picture

Um, I set up a new thread on supply management because I don't think that this is what NR had this thread in mind to be. And now it seems to be about eating bugs.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
I don't know Parksville, but  Armstrong is VERY different from good Belgian cheeses

I have to assume that Armstrong is also different from similarly mediocre Canadian cheeses, because at my local No Frills, it's always the one on sale for super cheap.  :D

Pogo Pogo's picture

I say Armstrong as in general area where there are a bunch of  "farm gate" cheese shops.  I could easily have said Salmon Arm just as easily.  Very nice on the basics (edam etc...), perhaps not up to European standards on tradition ("this cheeese recipe dates back some monks who made cheese when they weren't beating themselves with whips & chains").  They also tend to have some creative flavour creations..

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Ah, OK.  Where I'm at, "Armstrong" isn't an area, it's a pretty basic brand, comparable to a "house" brand.  Could be related, or maybe not.  They sell "planks" of Old Cheddar, Medium Cheddar, Mild Cheddar, Farmer's Marble and Mozzarella (plus bullshit "light" versions).  If your Armstrong makes Edam, maybe there's more than one Armstrong.

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