PM and Ignatieff 'saved the NDP from itself'

Hunky_Monkey
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Quote:
PM and Ignatieff 'saved the NDP from itself'

Gerald Caplan

Special to The Globe and Mail, Wednesday, Jun. 24, 2009 04:46PM EDT

How do you know politicians aren't telling the truth? Well, the old maxim has never worked better: Their lips are moving.

One caveat, of course. Stephen Harper and Michael Ignatieff meant it when they said they didn't want an election, and both used every opportunistic trick in the book to make sure one would not happen. Otherwise, both Pinocchio'd their way through the last several months, one of the more demoralizingly vacuous periods in recent history. The government did almost nothing constructive and the Official Opposition offered almost no alternatives, with many media reporting their most fatuous spins at face value. Poor Canada.

But they saved the NDP from itself. Jack Layton had boxed himself into the tightest of corners, going nowhere fast. He and a few self-loving communication types who now seem to run the NDP, with nary a piece of substance to be found, are sighing sighs of relief. The NDP is in no better shape to fight a campaign than the Liberals, and everyone knows it. But both parties routinely assert the opposite.

...

The NDP will hold a big national convention where the only faux-excitement will be an elite-led attempt to change the name to the Democratic Party. To this fine state has the party of Tommy Douglas and David Lewis descended, at a time of multiple crises with the democratic left virtually moribund. No new public policy ideas will be introduced.

Bereft of both cash and ideas, like social democrats everywhere, the NDP is in big trouble. Firing some senior staff would be a good start for a party whose relevance is increasingly marginal. Sad times.

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/they-saved-the-ndp-from-itself/article1194850/

 

What the hell is up with Caplan?!?!


Comments

Webgear
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He must not like the current NDP Leadership and inner circle.


Coyote
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bashing the NDP is easy ink to pour for the globe.


Webgear
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At the end of the article the following is stated:

 

Gerald Caplan is a former NDP national campaign director.


Coyote
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ya, big shock. it's a weird fetish; some people seem to join the NDP with the sole end-game of beating their chest as they leave at some point in the future.


Cueball
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Are they really going to change the name to the Democratic Party?


Coyote
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this is honestly the first i've heard of it, aside from michael byers suggesting it at one point before the last election (i think?). i've long been on the record suggesting "social democratic party of canada". is it the biggest thing? to me, no. i get the arguments for keeping it (tradition, established brand), and i get those for change (at a certain point, you aren't new anymore).


Cueball
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Well, if you were really going to do that. You would just accent "democractic" in the name for a few years, the just drop the new entirely. But I am not a fan anyway, so, not really much point in me giving my opinion.


Coyote
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i will agree it's a little disonnant considering part of the branding in the last campaign was jack's inflection on "canada's new democrats." that said, it's hard to come across a new democrat who doesn't have some kind of opinion on the issue and, funny as it sounds, it is something that casual political observers seem to be interested in. you have no idea the amount of people who have asked me (knowing my partisan leanings) "when are you gonna get rid of the new, anyways?"


Cueball
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well. thing is it will really make it look like the party is trying to emulate the American party. And sooooz. well not a good idea really.


Coyote
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i am sure that factor will get a lot of play in the media, yes.  obama's popularity with canadians is obviously one part of that. on the other hand, is a fourty-eight year old party

(not counting the preceding ccf)  taking out the new really shocking or out of place? the "new" is after less essential to the brand that the "democratic". might finally making up for starting off calling ourselves the "new party". oh, that was just not good.

if this is an actual debate. like i said, first i've heard of this.


Stockholm
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I don't get Caplan's piece at all. The Globe was supposed to be having a series where strategists would give "advice" as to what each of the parties needs to do over the summer. Excpet that all three of them (surprise, surprise) offered no advice at all to the NDP and just gloated that the party was supposedly going down the drain! Even Caplan just took cheap potshots - sounding like he applied for a job with the party and wasn't hired and has some personal axe to grind - but them offered absolutely no constructive advice at all.


Doug
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I think it needs to get changed to something, since the party's not exactly new anymore, but I don't like just Democratic Party. First I've heard of a name change coming up at the convention.


NDPP
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omit


NDPP
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NoDifferencePartyPooper wrote:

 

 those inner-circle campaign fixers of Obama's crowed about in NDP press releases promising "learning from the best" may be behind this End -the -'N', DP redesign/makeover move...desperate times call for desperate measures I guess. "Democratic Party of Canada" eh? Yeah - rolls off the tongue real nice. Besides it was old and tired  and in decline not "New". Maybe Ujjal D could even be persuaded back into the fold to lead the final charge to victory at long last?  He did once say  "the NDP is a  natural habitat for somone like me" Maybe he could repeat his winning 1995 NDP Gustafsen Lake re-election strategy again? Caledonia will likely  be smouldering on for a few more years... who knows? Maybe he could try for the Indians AND the Militia this time? Maybe Canada could  make a 'Republican Party of Canada' as well. Either Harpo or the Count  would do for that one.  Branch plant politics now there's a nifty idea..."learning from the best" alright. Caplan pretty much nails it. After all he oughta know. How about the 'No Democratic Party 'for a new name?

NDPP


janfromthebruce
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Gerald, I suppose didn't look too deep into the upcoming convention stuff for Halifax. Jurist suggested that 

the NDP's resolution deadline was just last week. And the convention website's page on resolutions still lists the process for submitting them, rather than a list of what's set to be debated.

Thus Gerry doesn't know what the hell is being discussed or not since it's not complete yet. He needs to better critical political analysis rather than lazy journalism. Maybe he will make some resolutions from his riding - sure hope so.

 


josh
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Gee, from the headline I thought it was a Chantal Hebert column.


Michelle
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Truth is often not pretty, and hard to hear. :)


Uncle John
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Changing the name to the Democratic Party would be the best thing the NDP could do.

The Liberal Party would have much to fear from this.


KenS
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There's some truths in there- including uncomfortable ones. But thats not hard, there always are.

Inciseful but unconfortable truths is increasingly not what Gerry is about. He's turning into a crank- not unlike Hebert's 'method' of spewing.

Of the 3 strategists the Globe uses I've always found Lyle [the Conservative] the most useful. And even the unlikeable Scott Reid most of the time does a pretty good job of putting himself into the shoes of the party in question as he talks about them.

Not Gerry.


josh
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I'd prefer the Progressive or Social Democratic Party.  One Democratic Party is more than enough. Wink

 

As for this: 

 

"No new public policy ideas will be introduced." That pretty much has been the hallmark of the NDP lately. Particularly in its failure to take advantage of the current economic crisis.

 


Lard Tunderin Jeezus
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josh wrote:

I'd prefer the Progressive or Social Democratic Party.  One Democratic Party is more than enough. Wink

I'm 100% with you on that.


KenS
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Its worth noting that Gerry Caplan has no idea what goes on within the NDP.

When he says "no new ideas will be introduced" at Convention he may well be right. Anyone who spews is going to be right some of the time.


Lard Tunderin Jeezus
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glitch


Scott Piatkowski
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Caplan has been writing the same column about the NDP for the past decade (so has Jim Laxer, another spurned former insider).

 

Here's the short version: "Wah! The NDP no longer asks me for advice."

 

When Caplan WAS running the party, it wouldn't have been too much of a stretch to call him a "self-loving communication type" with "nary a piece of substance".

 

It's hard to take him seriously now.  I don't need advice from Gerry Caplan on how to make the party more democratic or relevant.


josh
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It's always easier to attack the messenger than address the message.

 


Stockholm
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"No new public policy ideas will be introduced." That pretty much has been the hallmark of the NDP lately. Particularly in its failure to take advantage of the current economic crisis."

So, I'm curious, if I could wave a magic wand and make anyone reading this the top strategist in the NDP what would be your strategy for how to "take advantage" of the current economic crisis?? I think the problem is that right now governments and parties of all political persuasions are in a quandry because no one has an answer (and maybe there isn't an answer) to the economic crisis. I suppose the NDP can say let's "tax and spend" even more than the current government is - but that doesn't seem like all that compelling a message. The trouble is that on many of the really big issues, the parties are all in agreement - for example the huge bailout of GM etc... was barely discussed in parliament because each of the parties has its own reasons for not being able to be seen to be opposing it etc...

It would be a different story if this was a seen as a "made in Canada" recession and if there were specific policies enacted by the federal government that were clearly linked to it. For example, if Harper had brought in some massive deregulation of the financial sector when he first came to power and all of sudden we had some of the chartered banks faling etc... harper would be in deep shit - but there is no smoking gun of that kind. It also would have been different if Harper and Fleherty had not brought in that ridiculous fall economic statement and had just let sleeping dogs lie and had then brought in a spring budget that was almost devoid of any stimuls spending at all - then the NDP (and the Liberals for that matter) could have screamed bloody murder at how Canada was doing NOTHING about the economic crisis. But instead, Harper has essentially co-opted the Liberals and its a challenge for the NDP to come up with a "big bang" economic policy that really stands out from what everyone else is saying.

If anyone has any ideas, let's hear them.


melovesproles
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The last NDP convention was dificult to ignore, the party took a strong principled stand on Afghanistan and Canadians had to acknowledge that dippers were going to fight for what they believed in and were willing to take on the mainstream media narrative.  From what I've read about the Federal convention this summer, I think Caplan is right, it looks like a self-congragulatory snoozefest by the 'centrist' wing of the party.  I doubt anyone outside the most partisan even notices it ever occurred.


Brian Topp
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Back to Mr. Caplan's article:

You know, one of the toughest challenges people seem to face after working in roles like "national campaign director" is finding a way not to be a burden on your successors. It's striking how difficult this seems to be for some folks. It is possible, I think, to be critically constructive (tories and liberals seem capable of this) -- and still do your part to build the party. This seems like a more honourable way to serve out your retirement than dancing as a monkey to organgrinders for the other side.

 

 


Stockholm
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Scott Piatkowski wrote:

Caplan has been writing the same column about the NDP for the past decade (so has Jim Laxer, another spurned former insider).Here's the short version: "Wah! The NDP no longer asks me for advice."When Caplan WAS running the party, it wouldn't have been too much of a stretch to call him a "self-loving communication type" with "nary a piece of substance".It's hard to take him seriously now.  I don't need advice from Gerry Caplan on how to make the party more democratic or relevant.

You took the words right out of my mouth Scott. What really frustrates me is that the Globe uses Caplan as the token New Democrat on this panel. Whatever you may think of Greg Lyle and Scott Reid, they are youngish guys who have been actively involved in recent election campaigns and understand modern political strategy. Gerry Caplan is a dinosaur who hasn't been an "insider" in about 20 years and his political notions are frozen in about 1978! If they are going to have someone in that panel who has some NDP pedigree surely they can find someone under 50 who has actually been involved in some campaigns in the 21st century!


josh
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"I suppose the NDP can say let's "tax and spend" even more than the current government is - but that doesn't seem like all that compelling a message."

 

That statement pretty much sums up the state social democratic parties, for the most part, are in. It's wrong on so many levels. It accepts the right wing construct that any increase in taxes and any increase in social spending is "tax and spend." Even more amazingly, it assumes that the Harper government is a "tax and spend" government, accepting the perjorative nature of the term. But when you're wedded to a balanced budget theology, I guess that's what happens. Finally, it implies that the NDP should not be in favor of increasing taxes on the well-to-do, either through a hike in the income tax or institution of an inheritance tax, and using the proceeds for needed social spending. If a social democratic party is not for that, I don't see what it's purpose is.

 


Kloch
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Aside from reminding us on how old Gerald Caplan is, does anyone want to actually refute his argument? 

I mean, are there any riding association insiders that have insight on any innovative, left-wing policies that will brought to convention floor, and actually be followed by our party in parliament (unlike say, the Afghanistan resolution)?


Tommy_Paine
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The purpose of a social democratic party is to keep tweeking the system to forestall actual revolution. 

They usually end up doing more for the rich, who certainly don't appreciate them, than they do the exploited, who generally don't appreciate the small tweeks they get from social democratic parties.

 


KenS
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josh wrote:
It's always easier to attack the messenger than address the message.

Whats the message?

That the NDP is short on good ideas?

Brilliant.

Like I said: just compare the quality of Gerry's comments with the other 2 contributors [and Lyle's this time is way less than he usually contributes].

I'll say it too:

The NDP is short on good ideas.

Can I have Gerry's place for that pitiful contribution?


Stockholm
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Maybe Caplan should be a delegate to the convention and put forth some of his own policy ideas - that is if he actually has any.

Josh, I don't disagree with you about raising taxes on the wealthy and expanding government etc...but these are policies that I would support whether the economy was booming or in a depression - but I still don't see how you can sell inheritance taxes as a way to bring the economy out of recession.


Kloch
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'It would be a different story if this was a seen as a "made in Canada" recession and if there were specific policies enacted by the federal government that were clearly linked to it.'

 

In what sense was the Great Depression a "made in Canada" crisis?


josh
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Stockholm, those policies are worth advancing regardless of the economic conditions.  And at minimum, there should be a call for a larger stimulus, a government jobs program, and tighter regulation of, and control over, the financial system.  And there should not be one word about budget deficits.  No repeats of this wonderful statement:

 

NDP Leader Jack Layton accused the government of creating structural deficits; an opinion that was echoed by economists, who said pulling the country's finances back into the black will be difficult.

 

 

 

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090527/deficit_shocker_090527/20090527?hub=CTVNewsAt11

In a recession/depression, you need deficit spending. Even at the risk of "structural" deficits, whatever that means. I can't believe this even needs to be pointed out to the leader of a supposedly social democratic party.


Scott Piatkowski
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josh wrote:
It's always easier to attack the messenger than address the message.

Some of us are addressing the message by, you know, actually doing something to build the party. I find it far more satisfying than whining from the sidelines.


waffler
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How about the Neo-Liberal Party, lol.


Michelle
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Yes, it's much more satisfying to be an "insider" and mock "former" insiders for having been "spurned" and for no longer being "asked for advice". 

It's just such a drag when people refuse to wait to speak until they're spoken to by the party insiders, isn't it? :D


Stockholm
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First of all there is nothing wrong with being fiscally responsible and at least trying to balance the budget. It has been pointed out numerous times that Tommy Douglas ran 16 balanced budgets in a row in Saskatchewan.

Layton is right about there being a structural deficit - which is a problem. Of course a large part of the cause of that structural deficit is the fact that Harper (like his Liberal predecessors) cut deeply i nto government revenues with massive corporate tax cuts and then he made things even worse with that utterly useless two percent cut to the GST.


josh
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Paging John Maynard Keynes.


Stockholm
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I think its perfectly valid to mock "former insiders" who write a whole column full of trite potshots and don't offer a single solitary piece of CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. As Brian Topp pointed out, when you get Liberal and Tory "former insiders" asked to comment, they will typically have plenty of criticism of what their respective parties are now doing - but then they will spend a lot of time describing what they think their party ought to be doing instead. Caplan does none of that - his only suggestion (if you can call it that) is to hire some new strategists.

 

I'm not impressed


Stockholm
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josh wrote:

Paging John Maynard Keynes.

Keynes believed that governments should incur stimulative deficits during economic downturns - and apparently even Stephen harper agrees. He also believed that this had to be counterbalanced by surpluses during times of economic growth. The problem is that as a result of the GST cut and the corporate tax cuts that Harper brought in - it is highly unlikely that we will ever return to surpluses even when (and if) the economy starts booming again.


josh
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So?  Governments shouldn't be running surpluses.  And there's nothing wrong with the cut in the GST except that it was not coupled with an increase in taxes on the wealthy.


madmax
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Regardless of the spin doctors, and the traditional bash the NDP, is the NDP dead, the NDP is irrellavent ..... the fact is , the NDP is BOXED IN.  The other campaigns are going to push the issue that the NDP is irrellavent, and have accomplished nothing by voting against the government.  Infact, I wouldn't be surprised to see the LPC and the CPC suggest that the NDP voted with the BQ 100% of the time and against the government 100% of the time.  Anti BQ sentiment is high in Ontario and an easy strawman to ramp up the base. 

I have heard a few things on the street....... The NDP is irrellavent... The NDP made a backroom deal with the BQ..... The NDP supported Dion.... The NDP is for big taxes, big spending, and the many things like the NDP is Broke, not ready for an election.. etc.

The NDP has countered none of the  negative spin since December. They are wearing the coalition debacle, and the next election campaign will not be the time to be on their heels, because you know its coming. Both the CPC and the LPC are interested in feastin on the NDP.

There is no doubt that the positive image of Jack Layton has taken a beating since January.  He may be doing all the same things, and defending all the right things, but the actions of the past were never explained to the public, and all goodworks of Mr. Layton and the NDP in this parliment are lost in the successfull political posturing of the CPC and the LPC.

The NDP is going into the summer a bit flat footed and a slight breeze will put them on their heels.

The NDP can't get lost in the convention in NOVA SCOTIA were the first NDP government and high spirits could mask the current situation across Canada.  The Convention will be a boost for morale, but the image of the leader and the party, need some shoring up and NDP supporters must get behind the leader with everything they have.

Of course.... then there are people like Caplan.  When did he run the show? How well did the NDP do when he ran it?

 

 


Stockholm
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They should run surpluses so they can have a nest egg to use to run deficits during economic downturns. You said "paging John Maynard Keynes". Well you can't "page Keynes" when you want to support running deficits during a recession and then "unpage Keynes" when it comes to his belief in running surpluses during times of economic growth.


Stockholm
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"The other campaigns are going to push the issue that the NDP is irrellavent, and have accomplished nothing by voting against the government. "

They can try that, but I'd like to see the Liberals give us a list of what exactly they accomplished by voting FOR the government. So far all I see is a toothless "panel".

Harper and the Tories voted against the Martin government consistently from 2004 to 2006 - some people could say "they accomplished nothing", but they then won the subsequent election.

I actually think that Harper has layed a big trap for the Liberals. He has followed the old dictum of "keep your freinds close and our enemies closer" and has now gotten the Liberals into a situation where they are so closely tied to his policies that its almost impossible for them to actually criticize the government.

If you buy into the notion that the NDP is "irrelevant" because it keeps voting against Harper (horror of horrors! how DARE they do such a thing) - then I guess the obvious conclusion is that the way to become relevant again is to start supporting the Harper government - of course that would open up a Pandora's box for the NDP that would make the challenges of today look pretty insignificant.


josh
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Wait a minute.  You complained I wasn't addressing what to do during the recession.  When I did, you complain I'm not addressing what to do during non-recessionary times.  You keep moving the goal posts.

And why can't I pick and choose?  Just because he was right about one thing doesn't mean he was right about everything.  Governments should never run surpluses.  The money should either be spent or taxes on middle and lower income taxpayers cut.

 


Stockholm
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If governments ALWAYS run deficits then where is the money supposed to  come from? You can't just keep running deficits forever and ever unless you want to end up like Zimbabwe with 1,000,000% inflation and people using wheelbarrows full of cash to buy a loaf of bread.

I agree with you that the government should run a deficit during this recession. The problem is that the government is ALREADY running a deficit - so I just don't think its a particularly compelling message for the NDP to take into the next election to say "Mr. Harper is only going to run a puny $50 billion deficit - elect us and and it will be $75 billion!! and that will stop the recession dead in Canada"


josh
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Of course, if you frame it that way.  Rather than framing it as a means to stimulate the economy and create jobs.

Who said anything about running deficits forever?  And the U.S. has run deficits for 35 out of the last 40 years without hyperinflation.


ghoris
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josh wrote:

And why can't I pick and choose?  Just because he was right about one thing doesn't mean he was right about everything.  Governments should never run surpluses.  The money should either be spent or taxes on middle and lower income taxpayers cut.

Who said anything about running deficits forever?  And the U.S. has run deficits for 35 out of the last 40 years without hyperinflation.

First, it's debatable whether Keynes was "right" about anything at all. Second, if A requires B in order to function properly, you can't very well "pick and choose" if you want A to work, now can you? Third, how do you propose to get rid of the debt that has been run up through years of deficit financing? (I always find it funny how many NDPers support enriching bankers and foreign currency speculators by paying them more and more interest). Fourth, the US did not have hyperinflation but they certainly suffered through stagflation in the 1970s and 1980s, so it's not like there was no price to pay for endless deficit spending in good economic times.

This kind of thinking shows why Canadians are loath to trust the federal NDP with the nation's finances.


Stockholm
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If you never, ever run a surplus and never ever pay down any national debt whatsoever - then that implies that government should run deficits every year until the end of time. In general I am in favour of deficit financing, but at some point the chickens will come home to roost and you will start getting compounding interest payments and downgraded credit ratings and if you ignore that then eventually you default on your payments and the IMF starts running the country.

Money has to come from somwhere. If you want to raise taxes to pay for programs then fine. But you can't just print monopoly money to pay for things.


Stockholm
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"This kind of thinking shows why Canadians are loath to trust the federal NDP with the nation's finances."

To be fair "ghoris" Josh is American so the NDP doesn't have to take any responsibility for his views on this and I don't see ANYONE in the federal NDP or any of the provincial parties advocating deficits in perpetuity. That "thinking" has been dead in the NDP for many many years.


josh
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"First, it's debatable whether Keynes was "right" about anything at all. Second, if A requires B in order to function properly, you can't very well "pick and choose" if you want A to work, now can you? Third, how do you propose to get rid of the debt that has been run up through years of deficit financing? (I always find it funny how many NDPers support enriching bankers and foreign currency speculators by paying them more and more interest). Fourth, the US did not have hyperinflation but they certainly suffered through stagflation in the 1970s and 1980s, so it's not like there was no price to pay for endless deficit spending in good economic times."

 

 

 

A doesn't require B in this instance in order for a properly functioning economy.  Balanced budgets doesn't mean surpluses.  Debt is not a problem per se, as long as it is kept in manageable proportions.  Interest on the debt can be a problem depending on the interest rate environment.  Deficits were not responsible for stagflation.  The oil shocks of the early and late 70s were.  The U.S. ran big deficits from the 1983 to the late 90s with one, relatively mild, recession, and little or no inflation.

And again, Stockholm raises the strawman of perpetual deficits. 


Stockholm
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The recession of the early 90s didn't seem so mild to me and it was enough to defeat Bush Sr. after just one term.

In some ways, even saying that there is a surplus is a bit of smoke and mirrors. In reality there is never a surplus because the government invariably does SOMTHING with the money. Even if they put a billion dollars into paying down the debt - that is a budget item so if you spend a billion dollars on that then you no longer have a surplus.

YOu're also wrong about stagflation being singularly caused by the oil shock. It started before that - largely as a result of the economy "overheating" in the late 60s as a results of billions being spent on the Vietnam War etc... You seem to forget that inflation was becoming such a problem long before the oil embargo of 1973 that in 1971 Nixon had to bring in wage and price controls and take the US off the gold standard!


josh
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The inflation was mild compared to double-digit inflation that followed the oil shocks.


Coyote
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Michelle and others, please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not trying to say that criticism of the NDP is invalid. I have lots of criticisms of the party: some from the "Left", some from the "Right", some on simple matters of image and presentation. For example: I don't hide the fact that I am more Pro-Palestinian than the current leadership; nor do I hide the fact that on fiscal matters I believe the federal party needs to move away from a laundry list of spending commitments and instead highlight fiscal discipline.

But anyone who thinks the NDP shies away from such criticism is just dreaming. I'm a life-long New Dem. I've been going to conventions and AGMs and open houses and "renewal committees" for years. If anything, I'd say New Dems are TOO willing to air dirty laundry - but I'd rather it that way than the opposite. Anyone who wants to come to Halifax will see a LOT of open debate and criticism about the direction of the party. It's what we do best. It's why we don't die off, no matter how often the Globe and Mail or the Hard Left write us off.


Lard Tunderin Jeezus
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Stockholm wrote:

What really frustrates me is that the Globe uses Caplan as the token New Democrat on this panel. Whatever you may think of Greg Lyle and Scott Reid, they are youngish guys who have been actively involved in recent election campaigns and understand modern political strategy. Gerry Caplan is a dinosaur who hasn't been an "insider" in about 20 years and his political notions are frozen in about 1978! If they are going to have someone in that panel who has some NDP pedigree surely they can find someone under 50 who has actually been involved in some campaigns in the 21st century!

Might I suggest Brad Lavigne for the role? I believe he's the kind of problem insider that Caplan is addressing - and I believe Caplan has a point.


Fidel
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josh wrote:
A doesn't require B in this instance in order for a properly functioning economy.  Balanced budgets doesn't mean surpluses.  Debt is not a problem per se, as long as it is kept in manageable proportions.  Interest on the debt can be a problem depending on the interest rate environment.  Deficits were not responsible for stagflation.  The oil shocks of the early and late 70s were.  The U.S. ran big deficits from the 1983 to the late 90s with one, relatively mild, recession, and little or no inflation

I believe economists have said since that skyrocketing energy prices of the 1970's were one-time shocks. Markets adjusted eventually. The real ignition point, or at least as far as the US was concerned in the North American scheme of things, was that they were printing money to fund a war VietNam.

But right-rightists at the time blamed rising prices on too many lavish social programs in North America. Trudeau caved in to this idea as did Johnson and Carter in the other country. There was technological stagnation in North America then as well as the former USSR. The Yanks invested public money in R&D whereas aspiring state capitalists in the Soviet Union decided against it.


Stockholm
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You can't have someone who is a current insider because then all you are going to get are partisan talking points. If you had Brad Lavigne, then you would need the others to be Korey Teneycke and whoever is Iggy's latest mouthpiece.

Scott Reid WAS an insider under Martin, now he works independently can is willing to provide constructive criticism of the Liberals and the same goes for Greg Lyle. If the Globe wanted someone with an NDP background who was involved at the highest levels in the relatively recent past and who is no longer on the party payroll - maybe get someone like Jamey Heath - or someone who was an insider during the MacDonough years.

Maybe the reason the Globe keeps going back to Caplan is because he is the only person they can find who has an NDP pedigree who is willing to do the Globe's bidding by posting a column that is just a bunch of gratuitous cheap shots and nothing of any substance. Brian Topp was dead-on when he conjured up the image of Caplan as a dancing monkey for the rightwing organgrinders who own the Globe.


N.Beltov
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There's a social group in Canada called the working class. The struggles of this social group led to the establishment of social programs in Canada like EI, formerly known as "Unemployment Insurance", and many others. It's my understanding this group is still around and, given the current economic crisis, is suffering gigantic job losses and impoverishment. In fact, the working class has been the subject of class warfare by neoliberal governments and corporate Canada for, let's see, maybe 25 years or so. The well being of this social group should be the priority of the NDP.

If the party doesn't have the spine to be genuinely socialist, or even utter that dreaded word, despite the fact that socialism is nothing but working class power/government, then it could at least try restoring some social partisanship to its approach.

I know it's an extremist, left-wing, wing nut idea ... but what the hell? Every right wing idea has been tried.


ottawaobserver
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A couple of random points after joining the conversation late:

 * You can't blame the Globe for going to Gerry Caplan.  There's basically him, Les Campbell, Doug McArthur and Joy MacPhail who have that level of experience and are able to write partisan things they can sign their names to publicly.  It's a big problem for our party that a lot of our best thinkers are not in that same position.  Brian Topp could, but then it's maybe not all that advisable that he publicize his thinking on these matters either, is it?  [ETA: written, obviously, before I was able to read Stock's comments in the meanwhile.]

 * I hope the party IS talking to Gerry Caplan, or if they're not, they ought to be.  He's done a lot of great work in Africa, for example, on the CBC, and probably lots of other stuff I don't know about.  He ran the 1984 "ordinary Canadians" campaign which saved our bacon as a party, at a time when we were in danger of being swept away after Jim Laxer's rather public defection hurt us badly.  Since then, however, and I mean particularly since Ignatieff walked away from the coalition, Laxer has been pretty kind to Layton and what he tried to achieve with that.  We ought to maintain a dialogue with Laxer as well (and in spite of some of my earlier frustrations with him, which may have been similar to what Scott articulated above).

 * On the other hand, I do think it was a cheap shot to write, in response to being asked "WHAT SHOULD THE PARTIES BE DOING?' to say "they ain't doin' nuthin' and I have nuthin' to add about that".  In that sense I do believe Gerry copped out.

 * Meanwhile, though, Gerry wouldn't be the first person to say that policy is an area that still needs work.  I was encouraged to see some of the postings for senior Research and Policy positions that came out of the caucus in the post-election period.  Remember that back when Gerry was Federal Secretary (now National Director), we had a pretty large NDP Research Group, which attracted some pretty bright lights, and who maintained on-going relationships with academics, policy groups, and activists.  ALL that was lost in 1993 when we lost official party status, and we did not have a large enough caucus after either 1997 or 2000 to bring that back up to full strength.

 * The parties also operate in a VERY different environment now from what Gerry remembers in the 1980s ... a 24-hour news cycle, 5 parties rather than 3, tiny news bureaus on the Hill who don't have policy experts to cover stories (and papers who wouldn't carry the stories anyway), and a TON more lobbyists.  A Commons committee that would once meet for 3 hours, with many rounds of questioning from fewer parties' MPs, now runs for an hour or hour and a half tops, with 5 minute rounds of questioning and multiple competing agendas from the 4 parties represented.  The Canadian Press used to have a huge Ottawa bureau, with many specialized beat reporters who each regularly covered their respective committees and beats.  Those days are long gone, and anyways half the news outlets don't even take CP anymore.

I don't have strong feelings either away on the name thing, and I can see the arguments for both sides.  I'm pretty sure Layton is ambitious enough not to have an entire convention built around that one thing though, for goodness sakes.  However, it will be an issue to get some of the national media out east to cover it if we don't drum up some pretty big news, because they simply don't have the budgets anymore.

If Gerry is not participating in the party so much these days, then his main source of information on what we're doing is through his contacts and what he reads in the Toronto papers and sees on the CBC.  Thus, he's getting what we've been able to get through those filters, and perhaps that's the message that's arriving at the other end.  Which, if so, is problematic and we have to work with what exists to do better.

Certainly, as I said elsewhere, my own riding met last week and considered 15++ resolutions on topics ranging from mentorship programs for foreign trained professionals, decriminalizing recreational drug production and use, preservation of fresh water, stopping the bargain basement sale of Crown assets, the Middle East, corporate social responsibility, etc., etc.  The name change was one of them (we approved a process and deadline for changing it, rather than a specific name).  Everyone agreed it was one of the best and wide-ranging policy discussions in a long time.

So, I'm upbeat, but not a Pollyanna.  My glass is half full, in other words.


Stockholm
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BTW: Don't they have editors at the Globe whose job it is to look at what someone like Caplan submits and then write back saying: "Come on Caplan, you should know better than to send us this crap! Your assignment was to write about what each party had to do over the summer - not write a lament about the general state of Canadian politics coupled with a few gratuitous and unconstructive potshots at the NDP. You better pull up your socks or else we aren't paying you for the article and you will not be asked to write for us again"!  


The Bish
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It's hard to take seriously the criticisms of someone whose claims are demonstrably factually inaccurate, as some of Caplan's are.  Is the NDP in trouble?  Well, its vote share is higher now than it has been at any time since Ed Broadbent was the party's leader, and it's stayed at roughly the level of support that both David Lewis and Tommy Douglas were able to achieve.  So if the party is in trouble now, then the party has always been in trouble. 


As for the idea that "social democrats everywhere" are in trouble, that's plainly not true.  In Sweden they have more seats than any other party, as they do in Norway and Germany.  They're only one seat behind the main party in Denmark, and they're the official opposition in France.  While the political systems in South Africa and India are obviously quite different than the ones in the industrialised West, the parties leading both of those countries also have socialist leanings.  "Social democrats everywhere" are not even close to being in trouble.


Bootsa
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Caplan is right.

As a lifelong NDP supporter, I cannot find any difference between Layton and Paul Martin or Ignatieff.  All of them attack national social programs by supporting Quebec nationalism and regionalism in other provinces, and all wrongmindedly adhere to principles of "sound" finance -- indeed, Layton argued against deficits during the leader's debate during the last election (even though he knew deficits were essential to stimulating the economy and protecting Canadian jobs).  His chief advisors, Jamie Heath and Pierre Ducasse, have been worse than incompetent: as the results from the last election attest, there is no chance of the NDP replacing the Liberals as the natural governing party in Qc, and appeals to Qc nationalism only promote racism and the Bloc Québécois.  The NDP needs to start speaking honestly to Québécois, and declare that it is a pro-federalist party, and that the decentralization of the last decade has been the principal method by which Québécois and other Canadians have been increasingly impoverished, as removing the federal normalizing role has increased interprovincial competition on taxes.


Stockholm
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Shows how much you know about the workings of the NDP - Jamey Heath hasn't been involved since the immediate aftermath of the 2004 election and Pierre Ducasse's role was heavily downgraded after the arrival of Mulcair two years ago.

I'm not sure what exactly Caplan wrote that you agree with since I don't recall Caplan (for all his faults) ever counselling the NDP to read Quebec the "riot act" and position itself as the party of Trudeauite centralism.


Bookish Agrarian
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Kloch wrote:

Aside from reminding us on how old Gerald Caplan is, does anyone want to actually refute his argument? 

I mean, are there any riding association insiders that have insight on any innovative, left-wing policies that will brought to convention floor, and actually be followed by our party in parliament (unlike say, the Afghanistan resolution)?

 

You seemed to have missed Jan's post - where she points out that the policy agenda is not set yet.  I know of a couple of resolutions that are pretty good at setting a policy discussion in certain sectors.  I hate to berate the elderly, but Caplan just seems to be making shit up - how do you refute that beyond pointing it out.

 

By the way - what the hell is wrong with just having a party?  Shouldn't you celebrate yourself once in awhile.  Since some New Dems seem to be constantly pissing and moaning about things not being utopian that might not be such a bad thing.

I haven't heard anything about a name change, but I have always thought including the word new was stupid.  That doesn't mean though becoming the Democratic party is such a good idea either- but then what's in a name.  I would be happy with anything that doesn't get shortened to N D Pee-er.  Sound like the party needs to be toilet trained.


ottawaobserver
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Stockholm wrote:

BTW: Don't they have editors at the Globe whose job it is to look at what someone like Caplan submits and then write back saying: "Come on Caplan, you should know better than to send us this crap! Your assignment was to write about what each party had to do over the summer - not write a lament about the general state of Canadian politics coupled with a few gratuitous and unconstructive potshots at the NDP. You better pull up your socks or else we aren't paying you for the article and you will not be asked to write for us again"!  

The online editor is Adam Radwanski.  And they don't pay.


Bootsa
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"Shows how much you know about the workings of the NDP..."

 

Actually, I know perfectly well where Jamey Heath and Pierre Ducasse have been and what they have been doing -- but despite Heath's separation from the day to day battle, his book basically laid out the framework for the NDP's disastrous policy decisions and approach during the last election, while the Ducasse-inspired declaration on Quebec nationalism from the 2006 convention still governs NDP policy (and Layton's politics -- it shows that he comes from a Mulroney-ite family). But who shall stand up for Canadians? Paul Sommerville and Jack Layton -- Bay Street's favourites? I don't think so. The Layton who called Paul Martin a murderer for cutting funding for social housing was the guy we need, not the timorous fellow who subsequently recanted. We need more 1978 NDP thinking, because today's "US left-flavour of the day" NDP (kind of a Svend Robinsonisation of the party, even though the lacrimonious Svend is obviously not involved anymore) is directly responsible for why Canadians no longer take the party seriously. The NDP has to talk about collective responses to the challenges we face; it has to talk about democratic equality.


Bookish Agrarian
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You must have read a completely different book than Heath wrote - as I expect he would be rather unpleasently surprised by your incorrect characterization


Stockholm
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Oh yes, those "disastrous" policy decisions and approaches that led to one of the best showing the NDP ever had!

If your so into taking a hardine on Quebec etc...I'm not sure why you're so nostalgic for the NDP of the 60s and 70s. back in the 60s under Tommy Douglas the NDP was the first party to champion the "deux nations" theory of canada and proposed special status for Quebec. During Broadbent's reign the NDP also made a major push for Quebec support, was a strong backer of the Meech lake accord and was clearly trying to target the "soft nationalist" vote in Quebec. This is nothing new.

If the best you can offer in terms of "advice" to the NDP is to have more "1978 style thinking" that's pretty sad. Sure, let's go back 30 years and see what what gave us 17% of the vote back then!


Stockholm
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Bookish Agrarian wrote:

You must have read a completely different book than Heath wrote - as I expect he would be rather unpleasently surprised by your incorrect characterization

 

Actually Heath's book was so badly written that I would have a hard time characterizing it at all.


Bookish Agrarian
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I didn't say it was a good book, just that the thesis was misrepresented. 


The Bish
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Bootsa wrote:

We need more 1978 NDP thinking, because today's "US left-flavour of the day" NDP (kind of a Svend Robinsonisation of the party, even though the lacrimonious Svend is obviously not involved anymore) is directly responsible for why Canadians no longer take the party seriously.

Presumably then you believe that the NDP has never been taken seriously, since their election results in the past couple of elections have been pretty much where the party has always been electorally.  It's dangerous to start projecting your own feelings about an issue onto the public at large.


Stockholm
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I think that by any objective standard, the NDP is actually taken MORE seriously now than it was in 1978.


Bootsa
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The debate was never as one-sided over Quebec as it is now, since there were always formerly those within the party who correctly viewed Quebec nationalism as a regressive force, and in case you didn't know it, the two nations theory of Canada had several permutations, and in its original formulation did not speak of Quebec as one of the two nations, but of French Canadians as one of two nations, which is a whole other matter.  No-one can fairly oppose the existence of a Quebec nation, but saying that Quebec is a nation (which is what Layton agreed with the Bloc Québécois), without the consent of the native populations who live on two thirds of the province's territory, is simply unjust.  More important, playing up the nationalist/decentralist point of view merely contributes to justifying the very policies -- i.e. all the cuts to national social infrastructure -- which have harmed the poor and middle classes.  It says to Canadians in each province: just send MPs to Ottawa to get the "butin", one-off payments such as the faux deal on the supposed fiscal disequilibrium, while turning attention away from more important evils such as "sound finance", poor monetary policy, and the decline in national social programs and approaches.

I think that the NDP is taken less seriously by more of the population, but now benefits from temporary rises in its stature because of the kind of shallow, electoralist politics it engages in.  There is no doubt that these have a certain short-term effectiveness, but only in encouraging short-term protest voting.  That kind of voting is unstable and will never be enough to put the NDP over the top.  And in any case, the party that results is one that no longer speaks to the actual issues or needs of Canadians. In these recessionary times, the national NDP has to show itself to be more radical and less centrist -- it has to be proudly socialist. 


Uncle John
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josh, the US government has been able to run deficits for 30 and 40 years in a row because of the US dollar's role as the world accounting currency. The Canadian dollar is valued against the USD (as is every other currency and all commodities), and thus Canada does not have the luxury that the US does.

You can't compare the US to any other country for this reason. As the world economy grows, demand for US currency and other USD denominated assets (such as US T-bills) will rise, financing US government spending beyond the means of the US taxpayer.

Even now, with the US money supply increasing from $800 billion to $2 trillion because of recent Fed actions, a run to the US dollar is still considered a "flight to quality". Go figure.


Uncle John
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dupe sorry


A_J
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Stockholm wrote:
. . . I'd like to see the Liberals give us a list of what exactly they accomplished by voting FOR the government.

The accomplishment is avoiding an election until such time that they can defeat the Conservatives - i.e. when party fundraising and poll numbers improve.  Anything short of that, such as voting no confidence in the government just for the sake of voting no confidence, which is what the NDP has been doing, is pointless since it's only going to force and election and return a Conservative government.

 

I don't know much about most of the column, but I think there is some truth to the statement that they just saved the NDP from itself.  For some irrational reason, the NDP has been itching for an election that, by all signs, it is likely to fare poorly in - at least according to threehundredeight.blogspot.com, which is the best and most frequently updated source for polling numbers that I can find.

Of course, Jack Layton is not really irrational - he knows he can vote no confidence in complete safety so long as the Liberals are unprepared to do the same.  It will be interesting to see how things change if/when the time comes for a Liberal vote of no confidence and NDP remains where it is in the polls.  We saw a bit of it in the past few weeks when it sounded, for a moment, that Ignatieff might be serious about voting no confidence - suddenly Layton wasn't going to be bringing a confidence motion and he was talking about trying to work with parliament and government.  The fall should be interesting.


Stockholm
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If you want a party that is rigidly centralist and opposed to any autonomy at all for Quebec, then I suggest you forget about the NDP and give Justin Trudeau a call and see about staging a hostile (or maybe not so hostile) takeover of the Liberal Party.


Bootsa
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Uncle John:

Conventional economic opinion (e.g. Kenneth rogoff) suggests that, before a country needs to default on its debt, it must have debt-to-GDP ratio of 300 percent (Japan is now at 200 percent of GDP) with the majority of said debt held externally.  So the US and ALL other developed countries can and should run deficits almost all the time, except perhaps for a year or two at the height of the business cycle.  As Roy Harrod emphasized, with proper monetary policy, most countries should remain "below the line" for most of the business cycle.  As Lars Osberg and Jim Stanford have shown, Canada's entire debt in the 1990s was caused by excessively tight DOMESTIC monetary policy, so even a small open economy with a floating exchange rate can easily run deficits forever, as long as GDP growth in the upturn of the cycle is sufficient to reduce the national debt. 


Stockholm
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"The accomplishment (for the Liberals) is avoiding an election until such time that they can defeat the Conservatives - i.e. when party fundraising and poll numbers improve."

I'd like to see your reaction if the NDP announced that its definition of a great accomplishment was to avoid an election until such time that they can make major gains - i.e. when party fundraising and poll numbers improve.

Its not exactly an "accomplishment" for the Liberals to avoid an election - all they have to do is to keep on systematically supporting Harper on every single confidence vote and they can avoid an election until 2013!!

Let's face it. The Liberals would like NOTHING BETTER than for the NDP to start playing footsie with Harper so that they could then switch places with the NDP and start voting non-confidence on everything and accusing the NDP of being in bed with the Tories etc... instead they are stuck with a bad case of penis envy like children pressing their little faces against the glass window of the candy shop watching the NDP do what the Liberal sonly WISH they could do - vote against the Tories. If your so sure that the NDP is afraid of an election then all the Liberals have to do is call the NDP's bluff and say they will vote down the government and sit back and let the NDP save their bacon by not showing up at the vote - but of course the Liberals have never done that because in the final analysis they know that they (the Liberals) are more averse to an election than the NDP is - and so this dance continues.

I have said it before and I will say it again. If some (very few) people think the NDP is making itself "irrelevant" because it keeps voting against Conservative bills - then it begs the question - what would make the NDP "relevant". The obvious answer to these people is that the NDP should start mindlessly voting for all Conservative bills to free up the Liberals to start voting against the government instead of enduring the daily humiliation of propping them up as they do now.

I'm sorry but its not the NDP's responsibility to save the Liberals from being embarrassed.


Bootsa
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And I suggest that, if you want to help Canadians, you go back and read Les cheminements du politique, which Pierre Trudeau wrote back when he was still a social democrat (and which owes a great debt to Harold Laski's Authority of the State).  Unfortunately, Trudeau's legacy was not hard centrism, but exactly the opposite -- Canada was damaged by his ending of established program financing in 1979 which was, effectively, the beginning of the end of our shared-cost national social infrastructure.  And yet he was right that provinces, especially the Province of Quebec via the Quebec Act and the Act of Proclamation, have all the power they need to defend their autonomy.  The Province of Quebec should continue to do so, but the nation of Quebec, failing a yes-vote in a referendum, remains a noxious concept designed to let national and provincial elites appeal to ethnic nationalism to facilitate favouritism for plutocrats.


Stockholm
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The vision of confederation you are suggesting would resonate with a few people in Toronto and Ottawa as well as with non-francophones in Quebec and with no one else. It would be a recipe for disaster - even the Liberals (who are traditionally associated with that view) dare not touch it with a ten foot pole now.


Coyote
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Which makes it, of course, the NDP's fault!


Bootsa
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While your vision guarantees that the poor will remain poor and that we will do nothing about climate change.


Bookish Agrarian
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Oh please - go outside and enjoy some fresh air. 


A_J
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Stockholm wrote:
. . . children pressing their little faces against the glass window of the candy shop watching the NDP do what the Liberal sonly WISH they could do - vote against the Tories.

Bizarrely put, but somewhat apt.  It's all a game for both parties - neither is really interested in voting no confidence, but they sure like to look like they are.  The NDP will vote against the government so long as its safe, and the Liberals would too if it were also safe for them to do so.  But I'm no sure how envious the Liberals are of the NDP's position though - the NDP is able to do what it does largely because the party is small enough to be inconsequential.

Stockholm wrote:
If your so sure that the NDP is afraid of an election then all the Liberals have to do is call the NDP's bluff and say they will vote down the government and sit back and let the NDP save their bacon by not showing up at the vote - but of course the Liberals have never done that because in the final analysis they know that they (the Liberals) are more averse to an election than the NDP is - and so this dance continues.

Like I said above, I think we were starting to see a bit of that a few weeks ago.  The Liberals came the closet they have yet to voting no confidence, and the NDP immediately reacted by dialing-back its rhetoric, if only for a few days.  Complicating everything was the belief that voters didn't want an election, so it was soon pretty obvious that they wouldn't go all of the way with it, and the NDP were quickly back to their old ways ("we're not even going to read the update!").

It is a good question though who is more adverse to an election.  On one hand, the Liberals have more to gain (government) and more to lose (renewed Conservative government and missing a chance to topple them for several years, since the voters aren't going to want another election soon after the next) . . . though if the polling is to be believed, it's quite possible that the NDP could lose as many as half their seats and I don't see them moving up much at the momeny, unless they start polling above their election results, which they're currently two or three points below.


Cueball
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Brian Topp wrote:

Back to Mr. Caplan's article:

You know, one of the toughest challenges people seem to face after working in roles like "national campaign director" is finding a way not to be a burden on your successors. It's striking how difficult this seems to be for some folks. It is possible, I think, to be critically constructive (tories and liberals seem capable of this) -- and still do your part to build the party. This seems like a more honourable way to serve out your retirement than dancing as a monkey to organgrinders for the other side.

Heh. Talk about arguing from "interest". Saying that Ignatief and Harper "Pinocchio'd their way through the last several months", is hardly "dancing as a monkey" for the other corporate parties. Couldn't possibly be that some persons are no longer intersted in dancing the tune of the NDP on principle?


NorthReport
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NorthReport wrote:

Right on sister/brother!

Since the beginning of time there has been a war on the working class by the right wing Liberals and Conservatives, or whatever they were called before that. But many folks here, and elsewhere, like to change the subject by trying all these diversionary tactics, like talking about the environment, human rights, Israel, etc. It's all a smokescreen to avoid talking about redistributing the wealth.  

 

With an adequate redistribution of the wealth, 99.9% of these other hot-button issues will vanish.

 

N.Beltov wrote:

There's a social group in Canada called the working class. The struggles of this social group led to the establishment of social programs in Canada like EI, formerly known as "Unemployment Insurance", and many others. It's my understanding this group is still around and, given the current economic crisis, is suffering gigantic job losses and impoverishment. In fact, the working class has been the subject of class warfare by neoliberal governments and corporate Canada for, let's see, maybe 25 years or so. The well being of this social group should be the priority of the NDP.

If the party doesn't have the spine to be genuinely socialist, or even utter that dreaded word, despite the fact that socialism is nothing but working class power/government, then it could at least try restoring some social partisanship to its approach.

I know it's an extremist, left-wing, wing nut idea ... but what the hell? Every right wing idea has been tried.


NorthReport
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--


Papal Bull
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Man, the NDP needs a new branding. I suggest we take the Democratic Party, and add an exlamation point to the end of it so New Democratic Party is now Democratic Party!. This will make it more exciting. Then maybe there should be a mascot. Maybe a donkey done in the style of Camel Joe, but with an orange and green suit and square rimmed stylish glasses. And a moustach.

Oh, and a slogan! Perhaps "We've got the Orange"?Something, short, to the point, and leaves voters feeling zen.

I'll MSPaint up an election poster sooner or later.


remind
\,,/ rabble-rouser-l33t \,,/
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Well let's just change the e to an o for The "Now" Democratic Party ;)


Debater
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Bootsa wrote:

 as the results from the last election attest, there is no chance of the NDP replacing the Liberals as the natural governing party in Qc

I think you may be right that the last election may have been the NDP's best chance to replace the Liberals in Quebec.  The Liberals were badly organized, badly financed and had an unpopular leader.  But the failure of the NDP to make a major breakthrough in Quebec when the Liberals were most vulnerable may mean that it will be a long time before there is a chance to do so again.

I thought Chantal Hebert did the best job of any commentator on election night of summing up the results in Quebec - I can almost remember her words exactly:

"This is not a bad night for the Liberals in Quebec tonight.  What's happened to them is that they have turned the page on the Sponsorship Scandal.  They're up in the popular vote and they're taking seats off the Bloc.  They have also stopped the NDP from emerging in the province as an alternative to them."


ottawaobserver
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Nice of the Liberals to stop by and offer us such good advice, though, eh!


Cueball
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The NDP'rs seem to have no shortage of advice to give the left on this board.


ottawaobserver
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I don't think I'm one of them, though, Cueball.


Wilf Day
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josh wrote:
"No new public policy ideas will be introduced."

Caplan can't possibly say that with any knowledge. The seven resolution panels at the convention will decide what resolutions will get priority.

janfromthebruce wrote:
the NDP's resolution deadline was just last week. Thus Gerry doesn't know what the hell is being discussed or not since it's not complete yet.

Quite so.

ottawaobserver wrote:
my own riding met last week and considered 15++ resolutions on topics ranging from mentorship programs for foreign trained professionals, decriminalizing recreational drug production and use, preservation of fresh water, stopping the bargain basement sale of Crown assets, the Middle East, corporate social responsibility, etc., etc. The name change was one of them (we approved a process and deadline for changing it, rather than a specific name). Everyone agreed it was one of the best and wide-ranging policy discussions in a long time.

Well done.  


Cueball
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ottawaobserver wrote:

I don't think I'm one of them, though, Cueball.

I don't really see the point of attacking people for their presumed political affiliations. As far as I can tell Debater says he is one of those NDP/Liberal swing voters the party is trying to attract to the fold. This thread top to bottom is filled with attacks ad hominem, and its a shame that people can't stick to the issues.

I didn't see anything in the user policy about this being an NDP partisan board, only.


Kloch
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I still haven't had my original question answered which was for some one to constructively address Caplan's argument without mentioning how old he is.  I still wait.

As for the glorious resolutions at the party convention, what is the point of passing resolutions that will end up getting ignored during the period of governance.  I refer to the 2006 Afghanistan resolutions.

On a general note, I don't see how anyone can have a serious discussion about what the NDP positions on any given issue are, since, at least in provincially in Ontario, we are the only political party that doesn't have our policies online.  Federally, we have some policies online, but the Liberal women's caucus alone seems to have a more comprehensive platform.  If I am mistaken, some one please correct me.


Ze
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Joined: Nov 14 2008

Papal Bull wrote:

Man, the NDP needs a new branding. I suggest we take the Democratic Party, and add an exlamation point to the end of it so New Democratic Party is now Democratic Party!. This will make it more exciting. Then maybe there should be a mascot. Maybe a donkey done in the style of Camel Joe, but with an orange and green suit and square rimmed stylish glasses. And a moustach.

Heh, I like that. But can you make it 12% edgier? Maybe add some shades and a skateboard.

--

"One law for the lion and the ox is oppression" - Blake


Debater
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Cueball wrote:

I don't really see the point of attacking people for their presumed political affiliations. As far as I can tell Debater says he is one of those NDP/Liberal swing voters the party is trying to attract to the fold. This thread top to bottom is filled with attacks ad hominem, and its a shame that people can't stick to the issues.

I didn't see anything in the user policy about this being an NDP partisan board, only.

You make some good points, Cueball.

I voted for the NDP as recently as the Paul Martin years.  I disliked what Paul Martin did to the Liberals and the fact that he drove a number of left of centre Liberals such as Sheila Copps and Allan Rock out of the party.  I also worked on Ed Broadbent's comeback campaign around the same time.

I do sometimes vote Liberal when I feel it is the best option or the best way to defeat the Conservatives.  I don't mind some criticism of the Liberals or how they sometimes get too right of centre.  It's important that the Liberals face reality in certain ways in which they are not as progressive as they should be.  I am not that enthusiastic about Michael Ignatieff the way I was about Pierre Trudeau, and Ignatieff also lacks some of the progressive qualities of not just Trudeau, but Pearson and even Chretien.

But right now I do see Ignatieff as possibly the best way to get rid of Stephen Harper, who I feel is the most loathsome PM during my lifetime.  I dislike him even more than Mulroney.  

What I don't like here from certain posters is some of the antipathy and almost hatred towards all things Liberal and some of the snarky and patronising comments I often see.  It just makes me more likely to vote Liberal in the next election which is the way I am leaning these days as the way to get rid of Harper.


Kloch
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My rather partisan stance towwards  the NDP not withstanding (or maybe the DP, as it may be called after the convention), I feel less enthusiastic about this Liberals under Ignatieff than ever.  His stance on torture is a disgrace.  His stance on the Iraq War, both before and after, were disgraceful.  He killed off the Coalition which, had it been implemented, would have kept the Conservatives out of government for the foreseeable future. 

That said, the fact that the NDP can't make better inroads with these two clowns in Parliament, and the economy in the shape that it's in, isn't a very positive comment. 


Stockholm
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Kloch wrote:

I still haven't had my original question answered which was for some one to constructively address Caplan's argument without mentioning how old he is.  I still wait.

 

I haven't seen anyone mention how old Caplan is. How old is he anyways? i have no idea. Caplan doesn't actually have an argument so there is nothing to address. All his did was right an incoherent stream of consciousness that culminated in saying that the NDP should fire its strategists - with no reason given as to why.

If Caplan actually had an argument in the first place, there might be something to address.


melovesproles
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Quote:

My rather partisan stance towwards  the NDP not withstanding (or maybe the DP, as it may be called after the convention), I feel less enthusiastic about this Liberals under Ignatieff than ever.  His stance on torture is a disgrace.  His stance on the Iraq War, both before and after, were disgraceful.  He killed off the Coalition which, had it been implemented, would have kept the Conservatives out of government for the foreseeable future. 

That said, the fact that the NDP can't make better inroads with these two clowns in Parliament, and the economy in the shape that it's in, isn't a very positive comment.

I think the NDP should be taking notes on how Duceppe completely destroyed the Conservatives in the last election partly by using what was supposed to be the Cons strongest issue: crime.  Layton had a chance to do the same thing against Martin on homelessness but unlike Duceppe he folded as soon as the media started wagging their fingers.  Ignatieff and Harper are fucked and so are people who vote for them, they are  hell bent on imprisoning Canadians for non-violent crimes which only a few years ago were slated to be decriminalized.  There is no point in being polite about it, Layton needs to regain some of the spark and courage he showed when he first became leader and take a page from Duceppe on dealing with the inevitable heat the media blasts at anyone who challenges the status-quo.


Stockholm
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When Layton first became leader, he led the NDP to 19 seats. Now they have 37 - which approach was more effective. Duceppe has seen support for his party steadily drop for several elections in a row - he didn't "destroy" the Tories, they simply destrpyed themselves by adopting policies that were particularly unpopular in Quebec but wildly popular in the rest of the country. Crime may be a strong issue for the Tories in western Canada but it was never a strong issue for them in Quebec in the first place.


Cueball
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Were they popular outside of Quebec? Hard to tell since, no parties opposed tough on crime themed campaigning outside of Quebec.


ottawaobserver
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I guess Duceppe did effectively take advantage of the opening though, salvaging his party yet one more time.

Also, I apologize if the people I accused of being Liberals on this thread took offence.  It's funny that so many people who easily get mistaken for Liberals suddenly appear when a column such as Gerry's surfaces, but I should realize that this is just a coincidence.  I'm not sure what the appeal of this board is for a Liberal-NDP switcher who sees "Ignatieff as possibly the best way to get rid of Stephen Harper".  It sounds suspicious to me, but what do I know? 


melovesproles
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Quote:
he didn't "destroy" the Tories, they simply destrpyed themselves by adopting policies that were particularly unpopular in Quebec but wildly popular in the rest of the country.

Bullshit, you should really learn to give credit where its due.  If Duceppe had followed the NDP's lead and ceded crime as an issue that the Cons owned than the backlash in Quebec wouldn't have had the same strength and it wouldn't have hurt the Cons anywhere near as much.  Before Duceppe went on the offensive, almost every pundit in Canada was writing the Bloc's obituary.  We don't know how unpopular Duceppe's approach was in the ROC, I know a lot of people who would have voted for them if they could have.  Hitting your enemy where it hurts might look easy after the fact but its not something the NDP has been very competent at and its a skill they should really work on improving. For a 'left' leaning fourth place party, there is an incredible aversion to taking strong, aggressive and principled stands.

Quote:
When Layton first became leader, he led the NDP to 19 seats. Now they have 37 - which approach was more effective.

Obviously there are multiple variables at play in the different elections but I'm not saying Layton's rookie approach of making bold criticisms and then backing down as soon as the media attacked him was a good strategy.  Duceppe demonstrated how Layton should have handled the elite 'outrage' at his 'impolite' homeless comment.  Canadians actually have a pretty high threshold when it comes to poltiicans that show a bit of fire and arrogance.


Debater
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Stockholm wrote:

Duceppe has seen support for his party steadily drop for several elections in a row - he didn't "destroy" the Tories, they simply destrpyed themselves by adopting policies that were particularly unpopular in Quebec 

Stockholm is correct - Duceppe and the BQ benefit when the 2 big parties destroy themselves with big scandals in Quebec, otherwise things don't go so well for the BQ.

After the 1993 election in which the BQ swept in with 54 seats, they dropped down to 44 seats in 1997 in Duceppe first election.  In Duceppe's second election in 2000, the BQ dropped further to 38 seats and was beaten by Chretien in the popular vote.  In both of these elections there was no issue threatening Quebec culture and no scandal for Duceppe to use.

However, when the Sponsorship Scandal exploded on the Liberals in 2004, Duceppe was able to move back up to 54 seats, and was able to retain 51 seats in 2006 when the Sponorship Scandal continued.  Had the scandal not happened, the BQ would have lost a huge amount of seats to Martin as polls pre-Sponsorship were predicting.

Then in 2008 when the BQ was at risk of losing a lot of seats to the Conservatives, the BQ was saved by Harper's inflammatory remarks about artists and crime.  This allowed the BQ to retain their seats and end up with 49.  (Their popular vote dropped again though as Stockholm said - they went from 49% in 2004, to 42% in 2006 to 38% in 2008.)

Now the BQ is back to the same situation  again in the next election, this time they risk losing seats to the Liberals as they did in 1997 and 2000 (and to a small extent in 2008).  In order for the BQ to prevent losing seats to the Liberals, they will need the Liberals to destroy themselves with another scandal involving the party or Ignatieff.  If not, Duceppe will probably lose ground again.


melovesproles
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Quote:

Then in 2008 when the BQ was at risk of losing a lot of seats to the Conservatives, the BQ was saved by Harper's inflammatory remarks about artists and crime.  This allowed the BQ to retain their seats and end up with 49.  (Their popular vote dropped again though as Stockholm said - they went from 49% in 2004, to 42% in 2006 to 38% in 2008.)

Now the BQ is back to the same situation  again in the next election, this time they risk losing seats to the Liberals as they did in 1997 and 2000 (and to a small extent in 2008).  In order for the BQ to prevent losing seats to the Liberals, they will need the Liberals to destroy themselves with another scandal involving the party or Ignatieff.  If not, Duceppe will probably lose ground again.

The 'inflammatory remarks' on crime were Duceppe's, not Harpers, I don't remember him saying much except that he thought Duceppe should apologize.  Who was predicting that the Cons would lose their coveted majority on the issues of arts and crime in 2008?  Nobody.  In fact it was quite the opposite. Now of course, pundits who at the time thought Harper was invincible on the subject think that this was a huge blunder which anyone could have used to seize victory from the jaws of defeat.  Duceppe just happened to be the one who did it and doesn't deserve any credit for facing down the indignant media and PM without blinking...   I guess its good to be underestimated though.  It could come in handy again as Ignatieff has plenty of weaknesses for Duceppe to target, ditto for the NDP, but I don't think they have the same killer instinct that Duceppe has in spades.


Kloch
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Stockholm wrote:

Kloch wrote:

I still haven't had my original question answered which was for some one to constructively address Caplan's argument without mentioning how old he is.  I still wait.

 

I haven't seen anyone mention how old Caplan is. How old is he anyways? i have no idea. Caplan doesn't actually have an argument so there is nothing to address. All his did was right an incoherent stream of consciousness that culminated in saying that the NDP should fire its strategists - with no reason given as to why.

If Caplan actually had an argument in the first place, there might be something to address.

You called him a dinosaur in an earlier post.  I assume by that you mean that he is very old.  If you don't, please feel free to clarify. 

Caplan's piece stated that the NDP was bereft of ideas.  If the NDP has new ideas that will dramatically alter Canadian society for the benefit of working people that we will implement when elected, then this should be pretty easy to prove.

As I mentioned earlier, the federal party does have a policy section, but it is a little bit light on details, compared to the Liberal women's caucus page. 


Kloch
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ottawaobserver wrote:

I guess Duceppe did effectively take advantage of the opening though, salvaging his party yet one more time.

Also, I apologize if the people I accused of being Liberals on this thread took offence.  It's funny that so many people who easily get mistaken for Liberals suddenly appear when a column such as Gerry's surfaces, but I should realize that this is just a coincidence.  I'm not sure what the appeal of this board is for a Liberal-NDP switcher who sees "Ignatieff as possibly the best way to get rid of Stephen Harper".  It sounds suspicious to me, but what do I know? 

Why should you, or any one, apologize for being a Liberal in the first place?  This isn't supposed to be a NDP discussion board.  The LPC is a legal-political party, and while we may not agree with them on just about anything, there's nothing morally wrong about expressing support.  I argue with Liberal friends all the time.  But the idea that you some one should be "attacked" for pretending to be a Liberal simply because you disagree with NDP policies seems vaguely Stalinistic in a grade 3 kind of way.


KenS
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Kloch wrote:
I still haven't had my original question answered which was for some one to constructively address Caplan's argument... 

Caplan's piece stated that the NDP was bereft of ideas.  If the NDP has new ideas that will dramatically alter Canadian society for the benefit of working people that we will implement when elected, then this should be pretty easy to prove.

This has been said before, but Caplan doesn't have an argument.

'The NDP is short of ideas' is a statement, and not an illuminating one.

The Liberals are short of ideas too. Big deal.

That's not the stuff of a column/blog that is a running commentary on party strategies... and which you do get from the other 2 commentators.

In keeping with what is expected he could have said something like: why I think the NDPs shortage of ideas is holding it back, and where they could start doing something about it.


Maysie
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Closing for length.


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