Potential Ruth Ellen Brosseau Candidacy for Leadership

198 posts / 0 new
Last post
terrytowel

lagatta wrote:

Yes, you can eff off.

No, I'm under no obligation to answer your bloody question.

Deflecting

lagatta

Leave me alone.

terrytowel

Then ignore me.

lagatta

Stop harassing people. I don't have to ignore harassers; they have to cut it out.

swallow swallow's picture

terrytowel wrote:

You need someone like an Adam Giambrone. Someone with the policy background, bilingual and an urbanist. But without the political baggage. 

Quote:
Leadership is not an entry level position

-Adam Giambrone

 

Adam's words disqualify Adam. 

He is far less distinguished than, for instance, Derek Corrigan. He is no more expereinced than Jean-Francois Delilse. Both have city coucnil expoerence and lost election bids as NDP candidates. 

To put it another way: minor celebrity in Toronto's incredibly parochial and self-centred municipal politics does not qualify you for national office. No one consider Jack Layton for national leadership until he had served as head of a national organization. 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

swallow wrote:

He is far less distinguished than, for instance, Derek Corrigan. He is no more expereinced than Jean-Francois Delilse. Both have city coucnil expoerence and lost election bids as NDP candidates. 

To put it another way: minor celebrity in Toronto's incredibly parochial and self-centred municipal politics does not qualify you for national office. No one consider Jack Layton for national leadership until he had served as head of a national organization. 

I agre with this but it seems to be saying that Derek lost an election bid as an NDP candidate and that is not true. He has never sought a nomination at any level except municipal and at that level has never lost an election. In fact for the last three elections his coattails have been so long the BCA has won every seat on council and school board.

Jack had the support of Svend's people because he ran from the left of the party. He then took the party towards the centre. WIthout that support he likely would not have become leader. The federal NDP's biggest problem is that backroom operators from Ontario have too much control over the party. The irony of course is that Ontarion is the NDP'd graveyard and always has been. Mulcair and his backroom cabal not only ent down in flames in Mulcair's backyard they also tanked in Ontario. 

Maybe it is time to elect a leader from the West who has experience and who is actually not a small liberal but a social democrat. I think REB is not a good fit for the leadership at this time but if it was a choice between her and Adam then she is clearly a far, far better choice. I think it is time to break out of the Central Canadian box and start seeing Canada from sea to sea to sea.

terrytowel

swallow wrote:

No one consider Jack Layton for national leadership until he had served as head of a national organization. 

Adam was the president of the NDP, THAT is a national organization. Peggy Nash is the past president of the NDP. No questioned her qualifications to run for leader. Neither did they question Niki Ashton who at the time had the same amount of MP experience that Justin Trudeau had.

terrytowel

lagatta wrote:

Stop harassing people. I don't have to ignore harassers; they have to cut it out.

NO ONE is harassing you. It was a very simple question. Is leadership of a party an entry level position?

Instead of answering you throw out these deflections. Your refusal to answer speaks for itself.

Sean in Ottawa

lagatta wrote:

I don't understand why they are saying REB is to unexperienced for leadership. Look at frigging Trudeau. I see he was re-elected as MP before this last time, but he certainly doesn't have much more experience than REB. Not saying there might not be better-qualified candidates, just that she shouldn't be rejected out of hand.

And while we may certainly discuss other contenders, shouldn't this thread centre on REB, not Giambrone?

First, I don't think that an OP must control a whole thread -- drift is what conversations do. I also think we do not need a different thread for every single person someone wants to speculate about. REB has not expressed an interest.

Second of all, Trudeau is not the bar for experience becuase we all claimed that he did not have enough. At times it is looking like that inexperience is showing through. I don't actually consider REB to be ahead of Trudeau in experience, even if I like her more and think she is more representative of most of us. The argument on experience is specific and it is valid. The NDP should care about this more than the other parties since if the NDP leader is not accepted, it is the party that will pay (just like the Liberals have a greater interest if their leader is less experienced -- they took a risk and I don't think they would have gotten away with it if Trudeau did not ahave the celebrity name). There is a real possibility that if Trudeau really falters that he might atune the public much more to the need for experience and an inexperienced person following him might find the road even more difficult, if not impossible.

I like REB, I think there is huge potential. But putting her up now would do her no favours. She has not demonstrated what is needed to be ready.And one day she might be a stellar candidate. That might only be ten years from now, even.

I raised the other people becuase I want to point out that there are people who are ready. Liu for example, should be approached to see if there is interest. She is bilingual, highly experienced and an example of a person from outside who could be fantastic. There are others. The discussion of others provides important contrast and context and to say that we need not be limited to MPs is a point that speaks directly to REB even if we are limiting this thread to her, which I find rather strange.

Debater

terrytowel wrote:

You need someone like an Adam Giambrone. Someone with the policy background, bilingual and an urbanist. But without the political baggage. In my mind his sexual exploits shouldn't be held against him. If his then girlfriend, now wife doesn't have a problem with his cheating, why should anyone else care? It is her marriage, it is her business.

I don't think the sexual affair is the main factor disqualifying Giambrone.  I agree with you on that.  (Although it does show bad judgement).

The bigger issue with Giambrone's judgment is the one I mentioned above that was hotly debated on Babble a couple of years ago -- when he used his position as an NDP executive in the Ontario NDP to stack the deck in his favour for the Scarborough-Guildwood by-election nomination over a young woman that was already just about to be nominated.

And then there are a few other disqualifying factors at present -- not only does he not have a provincial or a federal seat, he doesn't even have his municipal seat anymore.  He would be way, way down the list of people to run for the NDP leadership.  There are many more qualified NDPers who are current federal, provincial & municipally elected leaders/MPs.

swallow swallow's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

swallow wrote:

He is far less distinguished than, for instance, Derek Corrigan. He is no more expereinced than Jean-Francois Delilse. Both have city coucnil expoerence and lost election bids as NDP candidates. 

To put it another way: minor celebrity in Toronto's incredibly parochial and self-centred municipal politics does not qualify you for national office. No one consider Jack Layton for national leadership until he had served as head of a national organization. 

I agre with this but it seems to be saying that Derek lost an election bid as an NDP candidate and that is not true. He has never sought a nomination at any level except municipal and at that level has never lost an election. In fact for the last three elections his coattails have been so long the BCA has won every seat on council and school board.

Jack had the support of Svend's people because he ran from the left of the party. He then took the party towards the centre. WIthout that support he likely would not have become leader. The federal NDP's biggest problem is that backroom operators from Ontario have too much control over the party. The irony of course is that Ontarion is the NDP'd graveyard and always has been. Mulcair and his backroom cabal not only ent down in flames in Mulcair's backyard they also tanked in Ontario. 

Maybe it is time to elect a leader from the West who has experience and who is actually not a small liberal but a social democrat. I think REB is not a good fit for the leadership at this time but if it was a choice between her and Adam then she is clearly a far, far better choice. I think it is time to break out of the Central Canadian box and start seeing Canada from sea to sea to sea.

I was comparing Giambrone to Delisle. Both are municipal pols who ran for the NDP and did not win. My point? Only the obscure former councillor from Toronto gets mentioned. Toronto thinks it's the centre of everything. 

terrytowel

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

I don't actually consider REB to be ahead of Trudeau in experience, even if I like her more and think she is more representative of most of us. The argument on experience is specific and it is valid.

If you are using that as a bar, then Adam Giambrone would be more experienced to be leader than either one of them.

swallow wrote:

I was comparing Giambrone to Delisle. Both are municipal pols who ran for the NDP and did not win. My point? Only the obscure former councillor from Toronto gets mentioned. Toronto thinks it's the centre of everything. 

Being the past president of the NDP is not an obscure position. Would you say the same if Rebecca Blakie ran for leader? What about Brian Topp as well?

Debater

Terry Towel, I think the point is that Adam Giambrone is probably as unrealistic a choice for NDP leader as Joe Cressy.

Do you really feel these two are good choices for NDP leader, or are you just being mischevious? Wink

quizzical

unless mischievious = rude i doubt it.

Debater

kropotkin1951 wrote:

The federal NDP's biggest problem is that backroom operators from Ontario have too much control over the party. The irony of course is that Ontarion is the NDP'd graveyard and always has been. Mulcair and his backroom cabal not only ent down in flames in Mulcair's backyard they also tanked in Ontario.

A valid observation.

Mulcair spent more time in Ontario than probably any other NDP leader in history, and yet he was soundly rejected in Ontario.

Not only did the 905 breakthrough in the suburbs not happen, Mulcair's NDP lost ground in the 416, Hamilton, Northern Ontario, Welland & Ottawa.

Sean in Ottawa

terrytowel wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

I don't actually consider REB to be ahead of Trudeau in experience, even if I like her more and think she is more representative of most of us. The argument on experience is specific and it is valid.

If you are using that as a bar, then Adam Giambrone would be more experienced to be leader than either one of them.

 

Please oh please work on your reading comprehension.

I just stated that Trudeau is not the bar on this -- that his name allowed him to skip over that whole experience and qualification thing.

I merely put REB into the same category of Trudeau -- not ready for such a job. So pick up a dictionary and learn the meanings of these words becuase when you post crap like this, twisting people's words, it is extremely irritating. There fore my comment does not make Giambrone qualified.

As well it is not just qualifications there are other issues realting to appropriateness.

Your posts are again appearing to be illogical and designed just to provoke responses by pissing people off. I had not noticed you doing this as much in the past but recently it is getting very annoying.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Suggestions like Joe Cressy or Adam Giambrone may be silly-buggerism, intended to disrupt or annoy.

But I'm not sure that either of them is, de facto, less qualified for the job than REB is, and yet somehow this thread seems to fly.  I get that you -- SiO -- are not endorsing REB, but in the bigger picture, how is this thread any less silly than "Cressy for NDP leader!"?

Sean in Ottawa

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Suggestions like Joe Cressy or Adam Giambrone may be silly-buggerism, intended to disrupt or annoy.

But I'm not sure that either of them is, de facto, less qualified for the job than REB is, and yet somehow this thread seems to fly.  I get that you -- SiO -- are not endorsing REB, but in the bigger picture, how is this thread any less silly than "Cressy for NDP leader!"?

I think I made the point that threads evolve and conversation flows. The thread is not silly and has explored some interesting things.

The candidacy of REB or Cressy is silly right now. Any future potential for them would be sacrificed into a losing cause if they tried this. They are definitely a part of the next generation and a light in it. But they are not a leaders from the current generation. I have said that the NDP difficulties of the 1990s are the reason the party is so pressed to find leadership from within representing the current generation. We have those who are on the older side and those who are too young. This is why I really suggest looking outside. People like Pamala Plamater or Dr. Joanne Liu come from the age range and experience that we need the next leader to come from. They also represent the values the party stands for.

terrytowel

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

I merely put REB into the same category of Trudeau -- not ready for such a job.

Right, & my point was Adam has more experience then either one of them to be leader of a political party.

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Suggestions like Joe Cressy or Adam Giambrone may be silly-buggerism, intended to disrupt or annoy.

But as you say

Mr. Magoo wrote:

But I'm not sure that either of them is, de facto, less qualified for the job than REB is, and yet somehow this thread seems to fly.  I get that you -- SiO -- are not endorsing REB, but in the bigger picture, how is this thread any less silly than "Cressy for NDP leader!"?

Exactly. Why is it okay to talk up REB as a leader, but when I bring up Adam or Joe Cressy people say I’m trying to disrupt or annoy. A legitimate argument can be made that both Adam and Joe are more qualified over REB to be leader. Yet that is seen as disruptive.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Exactly. Why is it okay to talk up REB as a leader, but when I bring up Adam or Joe Cressy people say I’m trying to disrupt or annoy.

Because they think you're primarily doing it to disrupt or annoy.

For my money, it could all stop and we'd be none the poorer for it, but there you go.  You can't stop the REB supporters; you can only stop you.

 

terrytowel

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
Exactly. Why is it okay to talk up REB as a leader, but when I bring up Adam or Joe Cressy people say I’m trying to disrupt or annoy.

Because they think you're primarily doing it to disrupt or annoy.

For my money, it could all stop and we'd be none the poorer for it, but there you go.  You can't stop the REB supporters; you can only stop you.

Well I'm not and as I said a legitimate argument can be made that both Adam and Joe have more political experience than she does.

If posters can talk up REB, then I can talk up Joe and Adam.

swallow swallow's picture

Well sure, until you spot another random urbane young man from Toronto and decide that he is the new kryptonite. How about Noah Richler? 

terrytowel

swallow wrote:

Well sure, until you spot another random urbane young man from Toronto and decide that he is the new kryptonite. How about Noah Richler? 

Why not. If Brian Topp can run for leader, why not Noah?

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

And you one more Rabble thread descends into the silly as Lib cheerleaders again hijack discussion for the sake oh hearing themselves pontificate while telling everyone else that they are wrong, Libs are always right, and I'll be in Scotland afore ya!

I wish these lib sycophants would tak the high road out of here!

jjuares

The NDP had a telephone townhall the other day. I participated ( listened in mostly). Only one person hinted that Mulcair should go while almost all others said he should stay. Many of the callers were from BC.

Debater

terrytowel wrote:

swallow wrote:

Well sure, until you spot another random urbane young man from Toronto and decide that he is the new kryptonite. How about Noah Richler? 

Why not. If Brian Topp can run for leader, why not Noah?

The mistake Brian Topp made in 2012 (which remains a mystery today) is why he didn't announce he would run in the Toronto-Danforth by-election in March 2012.  It was taking place right around the same time as the NDP Leadership and would have been a way to demonstrate that he was serious about getting into the House of Commons to provide a strong Opposition.

At the time, Bob Rae had eclipsed Nycole Turmel as the best Opposition leader in the House, and many NDPers understandably wanted a leader with a seat.  This may have been one of the narrow edges that could have given Topp a slim win over Mulcair (who as we know didn't win until the 4th Ballot).

lagatta
Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

lagatta, I've got a theory about something.  Will pm you with it in a minute.

quizzical

REB has been named deputy caucus chair i see. i don't know what  it means just know she was.

Brachina

 I get Noah's point about her and hollywood encouraging people to become obsessed with her for profit, but hacking people's phones or iclouds is a huge invasion of privacy and even celebs have basic human rights.

 I do wish people weren't just as upset when this happens to male celebs (it has including nude pics) or when Ashly Madison website was hacked by morale crusaders and personal info got dumped on the net.

 Who needs to worry about big Brother/Sister when little brother/sister is just as capable of violating your privacy, but with less oversite then the government. In some ways that makes it scarier because there are millions of potential little Sister/Brothers out there, each completely unpredictable.

 Still he lost, bringing this up now is weird.

lagatta

No, it isn't. He was suggested as a potential NDP leader. I pointed out his nasty comments about Québec. This had nothing to do with invasion of privacy; it concerned things he had said in public. I was actually concerned with his (public, and often repeated) anti-Québec comments, not the Jennifer Lawrence stuff; I don't even know who she is. I don't follow celebrity stuff very much; as little as possible.

You and your puir aggrieved men.

Debater

Jennifer Lawrence is an Oscar winner and star of 'The Hunger Games' movies.

She was one of the celebrities whose phone was hacked for nude pics last year.

I didn't know that Noah Richler had waded into this, though.

And I was kind of surprised that Richler was allowed by Mulcair to run for the NDP considering his controversial comments about Quebec.  Luckily for Mulcair, I think the Richler comments were only a 1-day story in the Quebec papers during the election.

terrytowel

Noah Richler ran in St. Pauls and there was no way he was going to beat Carolyn Bennett.

Debater

The NDP usually finishes 3rd in St. Paul's both federally & provincially, so yes, it was always going to be challenging for Noah Richler to win.

However, earlier in the campaign when the NDP had some temporary momentum in Ontario because of the Notley Alberta bump, it looked like Richler had some momentum and most reports say he & his team did a lot of canvassing and had a lot more NDP signs up than usual.

He ended up finishing 3rd, but for a while when Bennett & the Liberals were off to a slow start, it looked like he could improve the NDP score.

Sean in Ottawa

quizzical wrote:

REB has been named deputy caucus chair i see. i don't know what  it means just know she was.

I think it means that she is earning greater trust, experience and opportunity in the party. This is a good thing. One day she might be a good choice for leader. Just not now.

quizzical

lol, i get they must trust her. i just don't know what deputy caucus chair means. is it a deputy leader? if not why is there a chair when there is a leader or a deputy leader?

Debater

The Caucus Chair is a different position from Deputy Leader.

For example, in the Liberals, the Caucus Chair is Francis Scarpaleggia (Lac. St. Louis, QC).

Meanwhile, the Liberal Deputy Leader is Ralph Goodale.

Sean in Ottawa

quizzical wrote:

lol, i get they must trust her. i just don't know what deputy caucus chair means. is it a deputy leader? if not why is there a chair when there is a leader or a deputy leader?

Caucus chair is a much lower position formally. And yes there is trust in her but not a suggestion that she is ready for the top position. I think the fact she is Caucus Chair is an indication of a realization that she  will have growing importance in the aprty over time. And this is a good thing that does not need to be rushed to the point of failure.

Aristotleded24

jjuares wrote:
The NDP had a telephone townhall the other day. I participated ( listened in mostly). Only one person hinted that Mulcair should go while almost all others said he should stay. Many of the callers were from BC.

And since the BC NDP is a very effective organization and knows how to be effective and win, I suppose we should take their suggestion to heart?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

I was just thinking that a combo of REB as leader and Nathan Cullen as deputy leader could be quite effective.

B.C. has generally been a strong NDP area(since the Seventies, often stronger than Saskatchewan, ironically).

Worth considering.

lagatta

Yes, I read the story about the phone hacking, but unless I happen to be on a plane or something, I don't watch Hollywood movies, and have little interest in US popular culture. My point was Richler on, or rather against, Québec.

Stockholm

There is an old saying that a "gaffe" is when someone tells the truth. I read what Noah Richler said and I don't see what the problem is. A poll indicated that 20% of quebecers are racist (I suspect about the percentage of people are racist in English Canada) and he basically said that people who are racist are racist. He also said that many people in English Canada can easily imagine a Canada with ought Quebec which unfortunately is also true.

lagatta

Oh dear. If he'd said that about just about any other group, it would have been unacceptable. Of course there are racists among us. There are racists among you too, probably about the same percentage. But yours include anti-francophone and anti-Québec racists. And no, that doesn't work both ways, any more than misogyny or racism against people of colour or Indigenous nations does.

Having francophobes like Richler among the NDPs slate of candidates is heaven-sent for the Bloc. Yes, they are in the doldrums but do note that they did increase their vote.

Sean in Ottawa

Stockholm wrote:
There is an old saying that a "gaffe" is when someone tells the truth. I read what Noah Richler said and I don't see what the problem is. A poll indicated that 20% of quebecers are racist (I suspect about the percentage of people are racist in English Canada) and he basically said that people who are racist are racist. He also said that many people in English Canada can easily imagine a Canada with ought Quebec which unfortunately is also true.

If you are going to report what someone says make it accurate.

"The media outlet also highlighted now-deleted comments Richler made just prior to the April 2014 Quebec election, in which he says the rest of Canada can imagine, “without any pain,” life without today’s Quebec.

Richler sent La Presse a statement apologizing to Quebecers who were offended by his Facebook comments."

First he stated not that Canada can imagine Quebec gone but that it woul not cause any pain. As well this was not qualified as many (which any number over a few could qualify).

He also apologized.

You defend him suggesting no apology needed.

I know you having recently told me not to let the door hit my ass on the way out of the NDP and you might think this kind of suggestion for Quebec is somehow just ordinary discussion and debate but it isn't. Your attitude, in fact, is part of the problem with the NDP. On this site you are almost the NDP version of Pondering, defending NDP figures even after they have already admitted wrong.

To now say that Canada can percieve Quebec gone without pain is true, as you have here, is hateful and extreme. To say it in the light of the last person admitting it was wrong is even worse. To say it on a progressive website is plain stupid. If you really want your beloved NDP to do well no matter how screwed up it is, perhaps you can put your hatred of Quebec back in your pocket.

Stockholm

Oh for God's sake you are getting totally unhinged here. All I said is that there are MANY PEOPLE in English Canada who are oblivious to Quebec separating. I never sasid that i feel that way or that people ought to feel that way - its just a fact to state that it is a sentiment that exists. I can also understand how at the height of debate over Pauline Mariois blatantly racist Charter of Quebec Values - when it seemed that she was tapping into a widely held sentiment in Quebec - its easy for people to think "who needs all these xenophobic racists in Quebec who just want to trample all over minority right - let them separate and form their own Front Nationale inspired country based on ethnic nationalism".

I also remember how after Quebec gave Mulroney his majority in 1988 and allowed him to ram free trade with the US down our throats - there was no shortage of people from the progressive left in English Canada musing about how maybe we would be better off without Quebec.

Sean in Ottawa

Stockholm wrote:

Oh for God's sake you are getting totally unhinged here. All I said is that there are MANY PEOPLE in English Canada who are oblivious to Quebec separating. I never sasid that i feel that way or that people ought to feel that way - its just a fact to state that it is a sentiment that exists. I can also understand how at the height of debate over Pauline Mariois blatantly racist Charter of Quebec Values - when it seemed that she was tapping into a widely held sentiment in Quebec - its easy for people to think "who needs all these xenophobic racists in Quebec who just want to trample all over minority right - let them separate and form their own Front Nationale inspired country based on ethnic nationalism".

I also remember how after Quebec gave Mulroney his majority in 1988 and allowed him to ram free trade with the US down our throats - there was no shortage of people from the progressive left in English Canada musing about how maybe we would be better off without Quebec.

Try again. You defended Noah Richler and then tried to modify what he said to make it more okay. This is about what you are defending -- not what you pretended it to be.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

lagatta wrote:

Oh dear. If he'd said that about just about any other group, it would have been unacceptable. Of course there are racists among us. There are racists among you too, probably about the same percentage. But yours include anti-francophone and anti-Québec racists. And no, that doesn't work both ways, any more than misogyny or racism against people of colour or Indigenous nations does.

So you conflate Anglos as the ruling class and therefore all the anti-anglo bile is okay. Please see Unionist comments about the west east pipeline. Guess what I think that SNC Lavelin and the Powercorp are every bit as bad Howe Street mining companies or Calgary oil companies. I don't care which fucking language the capitalists do business in it does not make me part of the problem for the people of Quebec because I speak the same language as one side of the traditional oppresors of the Quebec people. The other half spoke French and wore black robes.

lagatta

The dominant nation is not the same thing as the ruling class. Obviously most anglophones are working class, as are most francophones. That was a very odd reading.

And Indigenous peoples have not endured only national oppression, like francophones, but genocide. The only truly genocidal act against francophones of (mostly) European ancestry, unless i'm mistaken, was le Grand dérangement (deportation of the Acadians).

And of course the Church was complicit in the national oppression of the Québec people, in return for assurance of its power. That is one of the main reasons there was such a revolt against it here in mid-20th Century.

Did you deliberately misread what I wrote? Or do you deny the existence of national oppression?

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I disagree with your dominant nation bullshit. BC, one of the other provinces in our Federation, has never dominated Quebec or its francophone majority. The Central Canadian elite both English and French have dominated us all, since before Confederation.

As for the ethnic cleansing of Acadia my maternal ancestors arrived in Acadia in 1626 and by the 1750's I personally had hundreds of ancestors who were deported and others who fled to the woods around Memramcook. My mother, who taught me about the Grand Dérangement, never blamed Anglos for it so frankly your angst over Acadians is misplaced and to me a slap in the face by someone who thinks that language is a dividing line amongst Canadians. By the way most young Acadians speak Chiac and having spent many summers in Shediac I have heard lots of stories of arrogant Quebecois treating them like lower class people.

So lets leave aside the dominant nation bullshit and get back to being class allies against the bosses no matter whether they speak English or French.

lagatta

Oh dear.

Pages