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quebec and the federation 2

Wilf Day
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Joined: Oct 31 2002

Good discussion.


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Wilf Day
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Joined: Oct 31 2002

flight from kamakura wrote:
the pro-independence forces have to be somewhat disappointed that albertans didn't immediately confirm that they were the insane francophobic troglodyte maniacs that we all assume them to be.

alan smithee wrote:
Look at Alberta..It's hopelessly right wing . . .The provinces are much too polarized in public opinion and politics, uniting this country is an impossible task.

Which is one reason I keep posting (do the French media ever notice this point?) that, if every vote counted equally, Alberta voters would have elected 19 Conservative MPs, 5 NDP, 3 Liberals and a Green: a second NDP from Edmonton such as Ray Martin, an NDP from Calgary such as past Labour Council president Collin Anderson, and a couple more NDP from the rest of Alberta such as Lethbridge professor Mark Sandilands and Metis lawyer Jennifer Villebrun from Peace River. A Liberal from Calgary such as lawyer (and past school board chair) Jennifer Pollock, a Liberal from Edmonton such as Mary McDonald (a lawyer and university professor like her old boss Anne McLellan), and a Liberal from the rest of Alberta such as Norm Boucher, Mayor of Medicine Hat. And a Green from Calgary such as democracy and human rights expert Heather MacIntosh. The real face of Alberta!

alan smithee wrote:
Without drifting from the thread,I'd like to know what we have learned from our current first takes all electoral system.

There's something wrong when a government is elected with less than 40% of the vote is given absolute power.

No more majority governments without atl east 51% of the vote.

Coalition governments where as all the parties have a say...as well as a law that states MP's cannot cross the floor after elections...

The Harper government has proven that the system is broken and it needs to be fixed.  

Well said.


Winston
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Joined: Feb 17 2007

Who is "flight from alan smithee"?  Wink


lagatta
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Joined: Apr 17 2002

Rebecca, as per other post asking me not to swear at someone, in principle I certainly agree. However, unfortunately the moderators do not deal with anti-QuébécoisE comments as severely as they do other bigoted comments. This is, of course, extremely frustrating.


flight from kamakura
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Joined: Nov 24 2006

quite droll that, i should say.


Wilf Day
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Joined: Oct 31 2002

Winston wrote:

Who is "flight from alan smithee"?  Wink

Oops. Corrected.


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

@ lagatta

Really? I don't think I have ever seen anyone reprimanded for making gross generalizations or  bashing Ontario or any other part of Canada. 

I think many people  believe issues that concern them are not given the same respect and defense as other issues.

Whether or not there might be some truth to it, taking it to the level of comparing notes is a pointless exercise, IMO. For one thing, it might be a bit galling for people who have a slightly different perspective on things.

 

 

 

 


Catchfire
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Joined: Apr 16 2003

Well, I've always hoped that the right to self-determination would become one of babble's fundamental principles, which of course would include accepting Quebec's sovereignty as an assumed starting point. This is incredibly hard to enforce, since I remain baffled at the rest of Canada's hardwired inability to respect this very simple claim, inextricable from basic progressive ideology (not to mention the prospects of the NDP's long-term success in the province). In that sense I absolutely sympathize with lagatta's frustration--there are few posters I can think of with so long and determined a history of standing up for Quebec's rights and educating those willing to listen on babble. She certainly predates me, and when she writes on Quebec I always make a point to listen. It would be nice if everyone here gave her the same respect.


lagatta
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Joined: Apr 17 2002

I do apologise for swearing - I try to be polite and poised when posting - just lost my temper at one of those "Québec is nothing special" posters.


Wilf Day
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Joined: Oct 31 2002

Catchfire wrote:
In that sense I absolutely sympathize with lagatta's frustration--there are few posters I can think of with so long and determined a history of standing up for Quebec's rights and educating those willing to listen on babble. She certainly predates me, and when she writes on Quebec I always make a point to listen. It would be nice if everyone here gave her the same respect.

Agreed 110%. It would also be nice if she posted more often; we need her.


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

Who has said anything about not accepting Quebec sovreignty? 

And for that matter in what way have you moderators not taken enforcement of those principles as seriously as other forms of discrimination?

Never mind that bringing up that the issue of unfair application of principles has absolutely no relation to telling someone to fuck off. 

I think general claims that one is more hard-done-by than others are usually pointless and counter-productive.

Believe it or not CF, I was, among other things, defending the moderators.

 


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

@ lagatta

Cross posted with you. Actually, I couldn't tell who you were talking to with that comment in the last thread, but I am interested in hearing what offended you, and what you mean by "Quebec is nothing special".

 


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

Contrary to Wilf's enthusiasm for this discussion, I don't think we're ready for it. Nothing good will come of this. The NDP has at long last given at least lip-service to the principles expressed in the Sherbrooke Declaration - and even Stephen Harper, smarter than most, sponsored a motion saying the "Québécois" (whom he refused to define) are a nation. Until babblers, or babble policy, are prepared to do at least this much, profanity will be inevitable.


lagatta
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Joined: Apr 17 2002

Wilf, if I don't post more often, it is simply because I can't really access rabble (get logged off all the time) and certainly can't participate, from my home computer. I'm posting from a local library. I'll have a new computer soon, and then will be able to post more often.

 

6079_Smith-W, I know we shouldn't use strong language on web boards, and apologised. But I strongly disagree with what you say, as a sense of endemic unfairness can and often does cause people on boards and in real life to lose their tempers!

 

And finally, I agree with the comment by Unionist. This does not necessarily mean favouring an independent Québec, or not being able to argue that staying in Confederation would be a better choice for all concerned - it does mean recognising that we are a nation, and not merely one among many distinct or distinctive regions.


flight from kamakura
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Joined: Nov 24 2006

more than that, i feel like a lot of the people posting are basically just winging it, intuiting the fantasy quebec that anglo canada has developed as a sort of foil for their own 'serious' views.  western canadians are, by far, the worst for this, but they have plenty of support in the non-nonsense media.  even today, there's an opinion piece on quebec's student movement calling them "spoiled brats".  they're just offensively clueless about basic quebec - the social contract that orders party competition and political discourse, the axis around which issues are contested and resolutions sought, the broad consensus on political aspirations and fundamental communal values.  when i first started the thread on quebec and the federation, i was hoping that we could discuss quebec's federal profile within that context, a thread both edifying and gratifying.  instead, i'm finding that it's people talking at each other, a depressing call-and-response loop virtually devoid of information, chasing away posters who might contribute something interesting (sean in ottawa, excepted, somehow).

the die cast (that is, thread started), one hopes that we kick it up a notch for this one.


flight from kamakura
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Joined: Nov 24 2006

that said, i'm off to get drunk on mint juleps and eat cold fried chicken in the park, cinco de derby.  so take that for whatever it's worth.


lagatta
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Joined: Apr 17 2002

That sounds like fun!


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

lagatta wrote:

6079_Smith-W, I know we shouldn't use strong language on web boards, and apologised. But I strongly disagree with what you say, as a sense of endemic unfairness can and often does cause people on boards and in real life to lose their tempers!

Please tell me what you mean then, lagatta. 

Truth is, there are things in this conversation which bothered me from the start, some which I did not mention (like calling people troglodytes, even in jest, because really, it is half-jest), and equating other parts of Canada with the actions of our federal government, and other mistaken assumptions about political awareness and outcomes of elections  which I did point out. 

I'm not surprised at all that a conversation like this is going to see us pushing each others' buttons because in some things we have very different perspectives in different parts of this country.

But I disagree with unionist that we are not ready for anything. If not now, when? 

And again, had I not cross posted I would not have mentioned the swearing again. It was not my intention to rub it in.

(edit)

And regarding endemic unfairness I don't mean to say that it does not exist. We all know it does, and I am not trying to belittle what you consider unfair.

But I don't think presenting it in a general way is going to do much. You could ask 10 people here about how things are unfair, and who gets special consideration, and you would get 10 different answers. 


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

flight from kamakura wrote:

that said, i'm off to get drunk on mint juleps and eat cold fried chicken in the park, cinco de derby.  so take that for whatever it's worth.

¡¡Feliz Cinco de Mayo!!



Wilf Day
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Joined: Oct 31 2002

lagatta wrote:
This does not necessarily mean favouring an independent Québec, or not being able to argue that staying in Confederation would be a better choice for all concerned - it does mean recognising that we are a nation, and not merely one among many distinct or distinctive regions.

flight from kamakura wrote:

when i first started the thread on quebec and the federation, i was hoping that we could discuss quebec's federal profile within that context, a thread both edifying and gratifying.

I go back too far, I guess. I remember when Pearson took great pride in 1965 in recruiting the "Three Wise Men" -- Marchand, Pelletier and Trudeau -- (les trois colombes (three doves) in French) -- and the English-Canadian media told the ROC all about them, educating us all about the Asbestos strike and many other things.

I contrast that to the Orange Crush of May 2, 2011, when the English-language media introduced us to the "McGill Four" and "Vegas." At the time, practically nothing about comparable stars like Romeo Saganash, Françoise Boivin, Alexandre Boulerice, Nycole Turmel, Guy Caron, Anne-Marie Day, or Pierre Nantel, let alone the famous Alexandrine Latendresse or the remarkable Sadia Groguhé, Hoang Mai, Djaouida Sellah, Anne Minh-Thu Quach, and Pauline Ayala.

What did our incredible PR team do about this, after pulling off a brilliant election campaign? Nada. Nichts. Bugger-all. Don't just blame people in the ROC if they don't understand what's going on in Quebec. The NDP isn't doing enough to help them understand.


Catchfire
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Joined: Apr 16 2003

@Unionist: Agreed!

Winston, I was responding to lagatta, not you or your post. Apologies for not making that clear. 


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

@ CF

No problem, and sorry for being hypersensitive.

I do think it is worth it to take a deep breath and keep talking, though.

 

 

 


alan smithee
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Joined: Jan 7 2010

With the students agreeing to end the strike,what's next?

Will the Occupy demonstrations take centre stage?

Or will the marijuana march become a daily event? (I wish)

Will Charest dodge a bullet or will the PQ pick up the ball and claim victory next election?

Will the student's agreement mean the PLQ will be ready for an election this Fall?

Hopefully something will follow up from the student demos.


Boom Boom
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Joined: Dec 29 2004

CBC reported there was a demo today outside the PLQ meeting against proposed 'fracking' - and demos against Plan Nord continue, and of course the Innu and Alliance Romaine continue the struggle against Hydro Quebec and the Romaine River hydro project. So whether the student demos end or not, there are still going to be a lot of anti-government protests in Quebec.


alan smithee
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Joined: Jan 7 2010

I think the student protests have shown that wide spread daily protests can work.

I don't know the terms of the agreement but at the very least,the protests must have been somewhat successful.

There's a myriad of issues to protest but annual protests or protests that take place once in a while clearly do not work.

I hope the Quebec Liberals don't take the student agreement as a victory they can pat themselves on the back for.

I hope this is just the first round of many fights ahead.


RevolutionPlease
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Joined: Oct 15 2007
There's a lot of complaints to go around. I'm not sure why Quebec gets special treatment?

RevolutionPlease
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Joined: Oct 15 2007
And this is very important for the NDP to discuss. They got "lucky" in Quebec. How will they reconcile this in the "rest of canada"?

alan smithee
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Joined: Jan 7 2010

Seeing that  the NDP is still enjoying success in Quebec hardly makes them 'Lucky'

And why would they have to 'reconcile' this fact with the ROC?


RevolutionPlease
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Joined: Oct 15 2007
Sure it does. The Big Q is gonna come up. What is the NDP answer? I'm no slave to Quebec demands. The ROC NDP needs to represent. And this is a big political game my friends. You know the narrative is coming...

alan smithee
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Joined: Jan 7 2010

Maybe the ROC should 'reconcile' with Quebec for the Tories success.


Wilf Day
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Joined: Oct 31 2002

RevolutionPlease wrote:
Sure it does. The Big Q is gonna come up. What is the NDP answer? I'm no slave to Quebec demands. The ROC NDP needs to represent. And this is a big political game my friends. You know the narrative is coming...

What on earth are you on about? Are you drunk? Please get off this site until you can talk sense.


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