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They Oda know better Part II

Rebecca West
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Joined: Nov 28 2001

From here.


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Caissa
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The Liberals tabled a foreign affairs committee report in the House of Commons Thursday that opens the door to possible sanctions against the international co-operation minister for possibly breaching parliamentary privilege.

The move comes after the committee sent a request Wednesday night to Speaker Peter Milliken to investigate Bev Oda for misleading the committee last December over the cancellation of funding for the aid agency Kairos.



Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2011/02/17/oda-parliament.html#ixzz1EFBQ6cHG

 


NorthReport
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Would firing Bev Oda win any votes for Harper? Laughing

NIK NANOS is on Mr. Harper's side. "Fire the minister? I think 'not'," he says.

The president of Nanos Research doesn't see any upside for the Prime Minister in dismissing Ms. Oda. Rather, her firing would be viewed as an admission of two mistakes.

"First, that perhaps the minister appointed was not up for the job," he says. "Second, that a mistake was made in a ministerial decision."

Besides, Mr. Nanos argues, it's unlikely Mr. Harper believes "the decision itself was a mistake."

"Hence, any displeasure on his part is likely due to the process and not the outcome," Mr. Nanos says, adding that had she approved the application "that would more likely put her in the cross-hairs of the Prime Minister."

The pollster says these sorts of events merely reinforce existing attitudes Canadians have about the Prime Minister.

 

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/would-firin...


Lens Solution
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Sean in Ottawa wrote:

this is a moment the opposition parties should come to agree and collectively buy an ad decrying Con attacks on rule of law and democracy-- then they can go back to pounding each other. This would be credible and it would look good and most of all it would have an impression on people that his goes beyond the usual partisanship into a whole new type of nastiness.

Interesting idea.

 


JKR
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NorthReport wrote:
Would firing Bev Oda win any votes for Harper?  Laughing

Would letting the government get away with their disgusting behavior win any votes for the opposition?


JKR
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I think we should start doing a better job teaching ethics in our society. This isn't about votes, this is about integrity.

If we lived in an ethical society, there would be no questions concerning these kinds of acts of duplicity.

Having an election called over this issue would be a great way for society to consider an ethical question. The process itself would likely make Canada a more ethical society.

Let's have an election over the question:

Is it accpetable for the Government to lie to Parliament?


NorthReport
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It's about power - who has it, and who doesn't. Harper obviously has it and has been wielding it successfully so far.

Tempest in the teapot here, and it will blow over soon.

Kinda reminds me of our discussions about an election this year - As Ken so accurately put it, Harper, and Harper alone will decide whether or not we go to the polls.


JKR
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NorthReport wrote:

It's about power - who has it, and who doesn't. Harper obviously has it and has been wielding it successfully so far.

Is this the first draft of the Conservative's campaign slogan for the election?

It's kind of dated. It was used in Germany almost three quarters of a century ago.

The Conservatives can use those old NAZI posters. All you have to do is substitute the letters "arp" with the letters "itl".


JKR
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NorthReport wrote:

Tempest in the teapot here, and it will blow over soon.

Speaking of slogans, wasn't this the slogan used by the opposition in Germany?


JKR
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NorthReport wrote:

As Ken so accurately put it, Harper, and Harper alone will decide whether or not we go to the polls.

Zieg Heil.


Life, the unive...
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NorthReport wrote:

It's about power - who has it, and who doesn't. Harper obviously has it and has been wielding it successfully so far.

Tempest in the teapot here, and it will blow over soon.

Kinda reminds me of our discussions about an election this year - As Ken so accurately put it, Harper, and Harper alone will decide whether or not we go to the polls.

 

Please explain than why with such a weak opposition Harper has only on occassion creeped over 40%.  Harper is not all that successful and he is vulnerable because Canadians don't really like him and have this little voice in the back of their heads telling them they could do better. He has zero in terms of a legislative track record.  All he has been good at is being a bully, but you know what eventually the kids take on the bully and almost always beat him.


NorthReport
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We have seen what has gone since Reagan took power. I don't like it but it is reality.

How long has it been now since such an unpopular guy has been PM. I think it is more than 5 years now that I have been hearing this nonsense. The official opposition has basically kept this guy in power because they mainly agree with his right-wing policies. The kids, as you put it, are not in any way united, and so they don't stand a chance.


Life, the unive...
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Nice dodge.   I did not only say official opposition.


NorthReport
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Ignatieff had his chance with a coalition government and the Liberals blew it plain and simple. You only get a few kicks at the can.


WFPD
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NorthReport wrote:
The official opposition has basically kept this guy in power because they mainly agree with his right-wing policies. 

The Liberals certainly do. Remember their plan to eliminate child poverty? How many Chretien majority governments did it take to increase child poverty?

 


NorthReport
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Feb. 18, 2011


NorthReport
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JKR
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Hebert makes a great observation:

Quote:

If Harper was the leader of the official opposition, he would already be taking steps to withdraw the confidence of the House from the government.


Rebecca West
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JKR wrote:

NorthReport wrote:

Tempest in the teapot here, and it will blow over soon.

Speaking of slogans, wasn't this the slogan used by the opposition in Germany?

JKR wrote:

Zeig heil

JKR, inferring that NR is a nazi is an ad hominen attack of the worst kind and violates babble policy.  You are warned.


Sean in Ottawa
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Hi Rebecca, I totally support responding to attacks-- I just wanted to suggest that in this case I did not read it that way at all. I thought JKR's comment was about the situation not the poster.

The Zieg Heil comment followed a statement that Harper alone would decide when there was an election -- I don't think NR was supporting that fact so much as bemoaning it-- and the Nazi reference from JKR was meant to a public figure (Harper) not a poster here and I thought that intent was clear in post 7. To that end I think JKR was actually agreeing with NR at least mostly and their difference was about how far this issue would go which seems like a fair disagreement rather than an attack.

Who knows maybe I got it wrong, but I thought those two were involved in a mostly agreed point only with the difference that NR was more pessimistic about whether people would wake up and pay attention.And perhaps some disagreement about how serious things became-- I'd be surprised if either thought the other was being Nazi-like.

I don't mean to challenge your intention here so much as point out that there is a fair alternate interpretation for those comments at least as I took them. Perhaps ask NR if he took it that way and JKR if he meant it that way?


Caissa
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Regardless, I don't think that phrase should be used on Babble even when spelled incorrectly.


Rebecca West
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Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Hi Rebecca, I totally support responding to attacks-- I just wanted to suggest that in this case I did not read it that way at all. I thought JKR's comment was about the situation not the poster.

Upon re-reading, you're right Sean.  My apologies to JKR.

However, comparing the Harper gov't, or Harper, to the nazis does a disservice to those who suffered horribly under the nazis.  Please use more thought when making such comparisons, even if they're intended to be tongue-in-cheek.

Thanks


JKR
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The point I was trying to make was that authoritarianism is an evil that must not be tolerated.

I reacted to a post where someone mentioned that Harper was successful at weilding power. One of the main messages sold to us by the Conservatives is that people should support Harper, eventhough everyone knows he acts unethically,  because he has "the trains running on time".  We keep hearing that eventhough Harper is undemocratic, he is the best choice for PM because he is the best manager. Even Conservatives politicians, bureaucrats, and other insiders freely admit he has them frightened of speaking out. Conservatives admit his own Cabinet has been intimidated into silence. This sounds to me almost like many of us are now more likely to accept the ethos of "might is right."

In my previous posts my main criticism wasn't against the Conservatives. I don't think they are in any way shape or form like the NAZI's. My critisism is with the acceptance of authoritarianism.

NAZI Germany is the best lesson we have of how a modern pluralistic liberal democratic society slides toward authoritarianism. If we start condoning smaller acts of authoritarianism now, it will make it more difficult in the future to stop larger and larger acts of authoritarianism.

After seeing so many people ignore and even condone Oda's and Harper's actions, I'm beginning to wonder how democratic and liberty loving Canadians really are.  If people don't stand up for liberty and democracy now, all that separates us from a slide toward facsism may be a major economic downturn or another major act of terrorism like 911. People should never forget how easy it was for GW Bush to start an illegal war in Iraq in the wake of 911. And how easy it was to pass the Patriot Act.


JKR
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Caissa wrote:

Regardless, I don't think that phrase should be used on Babble even when spelled incorrectly.

I think that phrase is apt, even if spelled incorrectly, in response to:

Quote:

Harper, and Harper alone will decide whether or not we go to the polls.

The fact is that without a majority, Harper can't dictate whether or not we go to the polls.


Caissa
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Rebecca west wrote:
comparing the Harper gov't, or Harper, to the nazis does a disservice to those who suffered horribly under the nazis. 

 

I concur.


NorthReport
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Harper will decide whether or not we have an election.  He can go to GG and ask for one, or if it looks like the opposition parties are going to defeat his government, and he doesn't an election, he is quite capable of offering a concession to just one of the opposition parties, and that's all it will take for him to stay in power. Why do you think he has remained in power for more than 5 years? It has worked for him every time. And seriously, with their dismal polling numbers, do you really think the Liberals want an election now? And who is going to believe what the Liberals say anyway?

 

JKR wrote:

The fact is that without a majority, Harper can't dictate whether or not we go to the polls.


Northern Shoveler
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JKR wrote:

The point I was trying to make was that authoritarianism is an evil that must not be tolerated.

I reacted to a post where someone mentioned that Harper was successful at weilding power. One of the main messages sold to us by the Conservatives is that people should support Harper, eventhough everyone knows he acts unethically,  because he has "the trains running on time".  

...

NAZI Germany is the best lesson we have of how a modern pluralistic liberal democratic society slides toward authoritarianism. If we start condoning smaller acts of authoritarianism now, it will make it more difficult in the future to stop larger and larger acts of authoritarianism.

I agree with your sentiment and think your "keep the trains running on time" is the best part.  Harper is more like an El Duce figure with delusions of grandeur while accepting his rightful place in the axis. German analogies should at least be saved for the head of the alliance not the head waiter.

 


NorthReport
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Joined: Jul 6 2008

 

 Very well said.

Quote:
As it did over the census, the Liberal opposition has turned to the social media to put pressure on the Conservatives. Given the alleged seriousness of the offence, one would think the party would turn its mind to putting its money where its mouth is in Parliament rather than on Facebook and Twitter.

If Harper was the leader of the official opposition, he would already be taking steps to withdraw the confidence of the House from the government.
...
The testimony that triggered the 2005 opposition siege of Martin's minority government did not involve the Liberal leader or his ministers directly. It surfaced as the result of an inquiry set in motion by the prime minister himself and only a few months before its definitive conclusions were scheduled to be delivered to the public.

Still Harper made a strong case that the issue of the character of the government was one of such importance that it deserved to be put to voters at the earliest opportunity.

What was true then is as true now. The Prime Minister - by virtue of his role and his authority - defines the culture of his government and Canadians deserve to decide whether a culture of ministerial deceit is what they expect from a party that came to power promising to restore the integrity of an abused system.

- And unfortunately, the fact that the Libs are treating Oda's forgery as just another momentary scandal rather than linking it in any meaningful way to the broader question of whether or not the Cons can be left in office - including by publicly stating a willingness to work with other parties to achieve change - only figures to give force to criticisms like John Ibbitson's that the issue is one of "nit-picking" rather than the fitness for office of the Harper Cons.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://accidentaldeliberations.blogspot.com/2011/02/friday-afternoon-lin...


bagkitty
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Joined: Aug 27 2008

Perhaps it is the Roy Orbison images being used above that got me thinking about it, but what is it with the Conservative benches and big 'ole sunglasses? It is more than a little off-putting, and it is not  just Ms. Oda (I believe Rona Ambrose has a tendency to hide herself behind saucer sized darkened lenses too).

parl.gc.ca informs me that:

Quote:
While there is no Standing Order setting down a dress code for Members participating in debate, Speakers have ruled that to be recognized to speak, tradition and practice require all Members, male or female, to dress in contemporary business attire. The contemporary practice and unwritten rule require, therefore, that male Members wear a jacket and tie as standard dress.

--------------------

Although to be fair (damn I hate being fair) there is the possibility that she has been advised to wear sunglasses for medical reasons... I remember a reference to a Montreal area MP being told to wear them after eye surgery last year to protect herself against the glaring lights that are required for the television cameras to work properly.

Still, the "optics" are unfortunate... brings to mind used cars salesmen and the like.


Caissa
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Joined: Jun 14 2006

Opposition MPs attempted to link the Prime Minister's Office to controversy over an altered foreign aid document, as they wrapped up a week of attacks against the government.

MPs took up most of question period Friday to focus on the decision to alter a document signed by International Co-operation Minister Bev Oda that denied funding for Canadian foreign aid agency Kairos.



Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/politics/story/2011/02/18/pol-oda-pmo.html#ixzz1ELIXSmhl


Boom Boom
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Joined: Dec 29 2004

Oda had eye surgery recently - either this week or last.


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