What is it gonna take for the Liberals to change their leader?

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NorthReport
Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Is it enough for all of these clowns?

I don't think that the Westminster system ensures the same kind of "cult of personality" that electoral systems that directly choose the President (or similar) do.  But are you actually suggesting two-term limits for MPs and party leaders?

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dp

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Millennials seem quite unhappy with the price of housing in Canada and want the federal government to help them

The federal government used to have a co-op housing program that worked quite well and they need to bring it back How rich do the rich people in this country have to be before the government steps in to address the huge inequality between the rich and the poor?

NorthReport

Trans Mountain decision is good, but we still have a long way to go

http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/david-suzuki/2018/09/trans-mountain-decision-good-we-still-have-far-go

NorthReport

How many times is this project going to be announced?

Is the media that hard up for news that they have to repeat a report on a do nothing announcement. It will be news when the shovels are in the ground and also when the first transit passengers use the system

https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/vaughn-palmer-costs-of-metro-transit-plans-soar-with-no-word-of-explanation

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

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Millennials seem quite unhappy with the price of housing in Canada and want the federal government to help them

Isn't Canada larger in terms of land than the U.S.?  And yes, I know we can't just build more homes on Baffin Island, but couldn't we build lots more homes on totally cheap land that hasn't been developed yet, maybe using some of our surplus softwood and such?  Would these millenials want those homes, even if they're not in the Distillery District or whatever, so long as they were way cheaper than the Distillery District, or whatever?  Four walls and a roof... sounds like a home to me.

 

JKR

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
Millennials seem quite unhappy with the price of housing in Canada and want the federal government to help them

Isn't Canada larger in terms of land than the U.S.?  And yes, I know we can't just build more homes on Baffin Island, but couldn't we build lots more homes on totally cheap land that hasn't been developed yet, maybe using some of our surplus softwood and such?  Would these millenials want those homes, even if they're not in the Distillery District or whatever, so long as they were way cheaper than the Distillery District, or whatever?  Four walls and a roof... sounds like a home to me.

 

If most of the jobs are in the Distillery District, most millennials might understandably not want to commute for over 3 hours a day just to get to and from work.

gadar

NorthReport wrote:

How many times is this project going to be announced?

Is the media that hard up for news that they have to repeat a report on a do nothing announcement. It will be news when the shovels are in the ground and also when the first transit passengers use the system

https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/vaughn-palmer-costs-of-metro-transit-plans-soar-with-no-word-of-explanation

Shovels are in ground for Surrey LRT. I believe they have been working on roadwork and there was even a big brouhaha about a road being built through a park because of the LRT.

But Liberals should get a new leader anyway.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

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If most of the jobs are in the Distillery District,

What does "most of the jobs" mean in the context of a country the size of Canada?

JKR

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
If most of the jobs are in the Distillery District,

What does "most of the jobs" mean in the context of a country the size of Canada?

I think it means that most job openings in Canada are in a very tiny amount of its geography.

JKR

NorthReport wrote:

How many times is this project going to be announced?

Is the media that hard up for news that they have to repeat a report on a do nothing announcement. It will be news when the shovels are in the ground and also when the first transit passengers use the system

https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/vaughn-palmer-costs-of-metro-transit-plans-soar-with-no-word-of-explanation

Horgan and the mayors should tell Trudeau to stop dragging them to these announcements!!!

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Petro Politics and Trudeau’s sordid pipeline deal

https://thetyee.ca/Analysis/2018/09/05/Petro-Politics-Pipeline-Deal/

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Well the majority of people in the province of British Columbia now think Trudeau needs to be replaced.

https://researchco.ca/2019/03/26/trudeau-and-liberals/

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

The Liberals need to just dissolve themselves as a party.  There's no real reason for them to continue to exist, and nothing important would be lost if they vanished from the Canadian political scene.

WWWTT

Ken Burch wrote:

The Liberals need to just dissolve themselves as a party.  There's no real reason for them to continue to exist, and nothing important would be lost if they vanished from the Canadian political scene.

The liberals are central to Canadian imperialism. 

I get your point Ken Burch! It’s valid and you need to mention it. 

2015 federal election and leading up to it, it was displayed by the icm that the liberals had to be resurrected to maintain imperialism in Canada. Tom Mulcair suggestions of any sort of corporate tax cuts were way too offensive for the corporate masters to tolerate!

The only place the liberals are going to is opposition. If the icm and the corporations have anything to say about it. 

JKR

Ken Burch wrote:

The Liberals need to just dissolve themselves as a party.  There's no real reason for them to continue to exist, and nothing important would be lost if they vanished from the Canadian political scene.

When’s that going to happen and what should we do in the meantime?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

JKR wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

The Liberals need to just dissolve themselves as a party.  There's no real reason for them to continue to exist, and nothing important would be lost if they vanished from the Canadian political scene.

When’s that going to happen and what should we do in the meantime?

I didn't say I expected it to happen-just that it should.  Can you think of any valid reason for the Liberal Party to continue to exist?  It's not as though we couldn't create something better, a non-corrupt, non-arrogant, non-elitist party to fill the space it currently takes up in Canadian politics.  There's nothing indispensible about the LPC as currently constituted.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

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It's not as though we couldn't create something better, a non-corrupt, non-arrogant, non-elitist party to fill the space it currently takes up in Canadian politics.

If the Liberal party is to be replaced, I don't think "we" will be the ones to do it.  Liberal voters/supporters/members will be.

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Can you think of any valid reason for the Liberal Party to continue to exist?

If it has even ONE supporter then yes, I can.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

 

If the Liberal party is to be replaced, I don't think "we" will be the ones to do it.  Liberal voters/supporters/members will be.

Well yeah, that goes without saying.  Not sure why what I said bothers you.  I don't actually expect the LPC to vanish.  That said, what's so terrible about arguing that its existence serves no real purpose?  No harm is done to anyone in simply saying that-and it's not as though LPC supporters haven't spent every day since 1961 arguing that the NDP should simply dissolve itself and hand over its votes to their party simply because, as they see it, the LPC is entitled to the votes of all non-Conservatives.

I was expressing an opinion about a party-I didn't say that everybody who supports that party should be lined up and shot or anything.  It was fair comment.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

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That said, what's so terrible about arguing that its existence serves no real purpose?

It's not terrible.  It just wrongly suggests that political parties have to "serve a purpose" above and beyond representing those who choose to support them.  As long as voters support them, they're serving their purpose.

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and it's not as though LPC supporters haven't spent every day since 1961 arguing that the NDP should simply dissolve itself and hand over its votes to their party simply because, as they see it, the LPC is entitled to the votes of all non-Conservatives.

You and they are wrong for exactly the same reason.

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I was expressing an opinion about a party-I didn't say that everybody who supports that party should be lined up and shot or anything.  It was fair comment.

I didn't say it was unfair, Ken, so you can put the sackcloth back on the hangar.

NorthReport

What's nice about the Alberta election is that for all intents and purposes, there is no Liberal party involved, and voters can clearly see the basic differences between the UCP and the NDP. 

There will be no significant changes in Ottawa until all NDPers realize the Liberals are the main hindrance to the NDP  forming government.  

bekayne

NorthReport wrote:

What's nice about the Alberta election is that for all intents and purposes, there is no Liberal party involved, and voters can clearly see the basic differences between the UCP and the NDP. 

There will be no significant changes in Ottawa until all NDPers realize the Liberals are the main hindrance to the NDP  orming government.  

Like Saskatchewan

Pogo Pogo's picture

bekayne wrote:

NorthReport wrote:

There will be no significant changes in Ottawa until all NDPers realize the Liberals are the main hindrance to the NDP  orming government.  

Like Saskatchewan

Isn't the Saskatchewan NDP the main hinderance to the NDP forming government.  

NorthReport

Ha!

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

NorthReport wrote:

What's nice about the Alberta election is that for all intents and purposes, there is no Liberal party involved, and voters can clearly see the basic differences between the UCP and the NDP. 

There will be no significant changes in Ottawa until all NDPers realize the Liberals are the main hindrance to the NDP  forming government.  

We also need to campaign against the Cons, though-it's not as if it helps the NDP for people like Ford or Kenney get into power.

NorthReport

 

Yeah, right.

Ken Burch wrote:

NorthReport wrote:

What's nice about the Alberta election is that for all intents and purposes, there is no Liberal party involved, and voters can clearly see the basic differences between the UCP and the NDP. 

There will be no significant changes in Ottawa until all NDPers realize the Liberals are the main hindrance to the NDP  forming government.  

We also need to campaign against the Cons, though-it's not as if it helps the NDP for people like Ford or Kenney get into power.

JKR

Ken Burch wrote:

JKR wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

The Liberals need to just dissolve themselves as a party.  There's no real reason for them to continue to exist, and nothing important would be lost if they vanished from the Canadian political scene.

When’s that going to happen and what should we do in the meantime?

I didn't say I expected it to happen-just that it should.  Can you think of any valid reason for the Liberal Party to continue to exist?  It's not as though we couldn't create something better, a non-corrupt, non-arrogant, non-elitist party to fill the space it currently takes up in Canadian politics.  There's nothing indispensible about the LPC as currently constituted.

I agree with the gist of what Magoo stated; that a valid reason for the existence of the Liberal Party is that they are supported by many people. I think many Canadians are “centrists” so it makes sense that a party like the Liberals exists. I think what Canada really needs is a political system with much more consensus and cooperation between people from different political stripes and much less tribalism. We also need much more political, economic, and, social equality that would probably create the conditions for a system based more on consensus. 

NorthReport

Meanwhile back in the real world where it is and always has been the rich against the poor we need one honest political party that is going to addresss the wealth distribution  We know the Conservatives are the enemy We don’t need lying and deceiving Liberals who play mind games with the poor and the sooner we are rid of them the better

Unionist

NorthReport wrote:

We don’t need lying and deceiving Liberals who play mind games with the poor and the sooner we are rid of them the better

Sadly, that could be a quote from Andrew Scheer or Stephen Harper.

JKR wrote:

I think what Canada really needs is a political system with much more consensus and cooperation between people from different political stripes and much less tribalism. We also need much more political, economic, and, social equality that would probably create the conditions for a system based more on consensus. 

I agree with the first sentence. As for the second one - I suspect cause and effect are reversed - but more importantly, mass movements based on consensus, unity, and concrete action are needed to realize that dream of equality.

Sean in Ottawa

Ken Burch wrote:

The Liberals need to just dissolve themselves as a party.  There's no real reason for them to continue to exist, and nothing important would be lost if they vanished from the Canadian political scene.

This would lead directly to the destruction of the NDP. Be careful what you wish for!

The Liberal in the country, you may say are like Conservatives but they detest them. Liberals would join and swamp the NDP and effectively the NDP would become a new Liberal party faster than you can say Thomas Mulcair. The NDP is the party that would cease to exist.

For the Liberals to cease to exist you would need the Conservatives to eat off more of their right flank than is possible under the present culture of the Conservative party. You would need the NDP to eat off their left flank and you would need the Liberals to wither during a period where the political territory they have is consumed by other parties (including perhaps the Greens).  This would allow the Centre to hold its ideas while people moved to the ideas of the left and right. If the centre suddenly had no party then it would change the other parties by moving to them.

Rather than the Liberal party disbanding, what we want is the people to become attracted to and convinced to support actual social democratic values and reject neo Liberal ones. Liberal scandals and poor leadership can help this along but it has to be a process of cultural change. Otherwise the new NDP would simply provide a home for a vision of the country and politics that the Liberals now hold.

Presently the NDP is constantly in danger of becoming another Liberal party without even requiring the disbanding or complete destruction of the Liberals.

The important question is can a progressive social democratic NDP emerge in the context of a decline of the Liberal party and how do we make that happen?

 

Sean in Ottawa

NorthReport wrote:

There will be no significant changes in Ottawa until all NDPers realize the Liberals are the main hindrance to the NDP  forming government.  

Sorry -- I disagree that this would  make a meaningful difference. Yes, NDP voters must realize this but the more important change is the political cultural one where people are convinced of social democratic values. Otherwise, we are only talking about political party labels and the NDP will become the slightly left o centre option and the Conservatives the slightly right one. You need the people to change their political philosophy in order to allow a change -- once this is done then you need them to back a party. Providing a party without this change means that party will adapt to the political view of the population.

Sean in Ottawa

NorthReport wrote:

Meanwhile back in the real world where it is and always has been the rich against the poor we need one honest political party that is going to addresss the wealth distribution  We know the Conservatives are the enemy We don’t need lying and deceiving Liberals who play mind games with the poor and the sooner we are rid of them the better

The problem is that you assume that a party can make the change. What must be done is that neoLiberal values must be defeated whether they are in the Conservative party or the Liberal party. This does nto come by suggesting falsely that these two parties are identical (that is patently obviously untrue) but that both brands result in bad government. You need people to come to the ideas of the left.

If this were done and these ideas truly took over even the Liberal party -- why would we care? What's in a name? If neo-Liberal ideas take over the NDP how are we ahead?

We have to win the cultural political battle before we can engage in the partisan battle with any success.

Frankly, this is why organizations like the Broadbent foundation were created. The idea is that we have to change the popular ideas before we can elect better ones under any banner.

NorthReport

No disagreement there Sean.

NorthReport

Liberals would have trouble dumping Trudeau as leader even if they wanted to do this

 

Perhaps most discouraging for Trudeau is that the Liberals are trailing the Conservatives with women and young adults—two groups that supported the Liberals in 2015.

It raises the question whether the prime minister should even lead his party into the next election.

But it won't be that easy for disaffected Liberals to dislodge him.

That's because according to the Liberal Party of Canada constitution, there are only four things that can trigger a leadership contest:

* due to incapacity, Trudeau ceases to be recognized by the Governor-General as the party leader in the House of Commons;

* the leader dies;

* the leader is not endorsed in a leadership endorsement ballot at or prior to the first national convention after a general election;

* or the national board of the party declares that the results of a leadership vote are invalid.

The caucus can't vote to replace him. And the party executive can't pass a resolution to dump him.

So if Trudeau doesn't voluntarily resign, he will be leading the Liberals into the next general election on October 21.

https://www.straight.com/news/1220501/liberals-would-have-trouble-dumping-trudeau-leader-even-if-they-wanted-do

NorthReport

My, how things can quickly change in politics. 

Not that long ago there was some talk about replacing the NDP's Jagmeet Singh, which has basically died, and now the talk is about replacing the Liberal's Justin Trudeau.

Sean in Ottawa

NorthReport wrote:

My, how things can quickly change in politics. 

Not that long ago there was some talk about replacing the NDP's Jagmeet Singh, which has basically died, and now the talk is about replacing the Liberal's Justin Trudeau.

Yep -- you know what they say about a week in politics. NDP now trending above Mulcair's election result out of Quebec. Now the party has to do serious work in Quebec to draw even there. Tough job but possible maybe.

bekayne

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

NorthReport wrote:

My, how things can quickly change in politics. 

Not that long ago there was some talk about replacing the NDP's Jagmeet Singh, which has basically died, and now the talk is about replacing the Liberal's Justin Trudeau.

Yep -- you know what they say about a week in politics. NDP now trending above Mulcair's election result out of Quebec. Now the party has to do serious work in Quebec to draw even there. Tough job but possible maybe.

25.4%? Which polls show that?

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