Wife of former leader Stephane Dion lambastes Liberal party on Facebook
November 21, 2009 - 6:46pm
By The Canadian Press
MONTREAL - The outspoken wife of former Liberal leader Stephane Dion has some scathing criticism for the party and current leader Michael Ignatieff.
Janine Krieber wrote on the popular social networking site Facebook that the party is in full collapse.
She warns the Liberals will pay for refusing to endorse the historic left-wing coalition between the Grits, NDP and Bloc Quebecois that almost toppled the Tories last December.
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/091121/national/liberals_krieber_face...
THe Globe has a copy of the note. I am going to post the english translation but they have the french too for you french babblers.
The Liberal Party is falling apart, and will not recover. Like all liberal parties in Europe, it will become a weakling at the mercy of ephemeral coalitions. By refusing the historic coalition that would have placed it at the helm of the left, it will be punished by history.
Anyway, I became convinced of it the moment that Paul Martin treated Jean Chrétien so cavalierly. The party died at that moment. If the Toronto elites had been more in tune, humble and realist, Stéphane would have been willing to take all the time and absord all the hits needed to rebuild the party. But they couldn't swallow the 26%, and now we are at 23%.
The time for choices is now. I don't want to see the Conservatives continue to change my country. They are, slowly, like any dictatorship, changing the world. Torture doesn't exist, corruption is a fabrication. Do we really have the right leader to discuss these questions? Can someone really write these insanities and lead us to believe that he simply changed his mind? In order to justify violence, he must have engaged in serious thought. Otherwise, it's very dangerous. How can we be sure that he won't change his mind one more time?
The party grassroots had understood all of that, and the average citizen is starting to understand it too. Ignatieff's supporters have not done their homework. They did not read his books, consult his colleagues. They were satisfied that he could be charming at cocktails. Some of them are outraged now. I am hearing: Why did no one say it? We told you loud and clear, you didn't listen.
I am starting a serious reflection. I will not give my voice to a party that will end up in the trashcan of history. I am looking around me, and certain things are attractive. Like a dedicated party that doesn't challenge its leader at every hiccup in the polls. A party where the rule would be the principle of pleasure, and not assassination. A party where work ethic and competence would be respected and where smiles would be real.
Maybe I'm not dreaming.
"La présidente."
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blogs/bureau-blog/dions-wife-goes-rogue/a...
The Globe and Mail online "Bureau Blog" has the entire text of her note here. The last paragraph (I'm giving you the Globe's translation of it) is quizzical and most interesting of all:
I am starting a serious reflection. I will not give my voice to a party that will end up in the trashcan of history. I am looking around me, and certain things are attractive. Like a dedicated party that doesn't challenge its leader at every hiccup in the polls. A party where the rule would be the principle of pleasure, and not assassination. A party where work ethic and competence would be respected and where smiles would be real.
Maybe I'm not dreaming.
We cross-posted there, jimmyjim. Thanks for posting the entire thing.
I wonder how long it'll before someone suggests that the NDP recruit Janine Krieber as a candidate.
I figured as much ottawaobserver breaking news is always fun to post. I hope you are spreading the word on the blogs as well.
Why does she refer to herself as "la présidente"?
The marijuana party?
Why does she refer to herself as "la présidente"?
She did it earlier in the note as well, in quotation marks. I think it was a funny name she gave herself, maybe when she was the "leader's wife" instead of being able to speak her own mind.
I wonder how long it'll before someone suggests that the NDP recruit Janine Krieber as a candidate.
I read the closing paragraph as basically an invitation for the NDP to do just that.
It makes me wonder as well whether there's been some discussion re Dion himself crossing the floor.
Just remember, the NDP wouldn't take floor-crossers. The individual would have to resign from their own caucus, sit as an independent, join the party, and announce their interest in running for the NDP nomination in the next election. But they wouldn't be able to join the caucus.
It makes me wonder as well whether there's been some discussion re Dion himself crossing the floor.
I remember Jack praising Dion during the Liberal leadership race as a decent guy, therefore unlikely to win the Liberal race. If Dion did cross, that would be MAJOR part of a MAJOR transformation of the party system, such as the NDP topping the Liberals in seat standings and votes after the next election. WOW
She might mean the Green Party too, or something municipal. Who really knows.
I also notice Warren Kinsella has bowed out or got the boot, not sure which. Not that it matters, as he usually does more harm than good to whoever he is promoting, which is usually himself.
Yeah, too bad about that. I think he got out of town before he could get the boot. Ezra Levant claimed he got fired, but Warren was on Twitter this morning denying it. I'm sure this is good for another round of mutual lawsuits. What happens when you let big babies get law degrees.
In fairness to Warren, though, he wanted to go to the polls long ago. Probably if Iggy had followed his advice back then, they'd at at least have had a fighting chance to eek out a minority.
Hey Peter, you're doing one hell of a job since you took over. How many points are the Liberals going to sink in the polls next week!
And then there's a son of this city -- Stephane Dion.
A man with whom I have fundamental disagreements about how Canada should build and renew itself.
But also a man who is, if I may say so across the partisan divide, distinct from his principal opponents in being a committed Canadian and a man of principle and conviction.
And therefore almost certain not to be elected leader of the Liberal party.
Jack Layton's keynote address to NDP convention in Quebec
http://archive.ndp.ca/page/4283
Hey Peter, you're doing one hell of a job since you took over. How many points are the Liberals going to sink in the polls next week!
Whoa, I got confused there for a second NR ... for a minute there I thought you meant Peter Cassidy. ;-)
But it sure was a tough week for Peter Donolo, wasn't it.
My parents always taught me to be very suspicious of false Gods and prophets.
There might be principled people in the grass roots of the Liberal Party of Canada. But surely every M.P., every functionary, and certainly every leader past and present knows exactly what the Liberal Party has been about since Confederation.
They have made their deal with the devil, they are tainted, they have demonstrated, at best, a certain plasticity of principle-- if indeed they have any.
How many of these Liberals should we admit to the NDP?
None is too many.
Hey Peter, you're doing one hell of a job since you took over. How many points are the Liberals going to sink in the polls next week!
One.
Why don't we leave it up to the members in those ridings, Tommy. We're probably jumping well out ahead of the story here, anyway. But there are a couple of good MPs in that caucus. No point being spiteful out of revenge. A year ago we were prepared to enter into a coalition with some of them.
Waddaya mean "we". I sure as hell wasn't.
As Dion's wife points out, and as events have shown, the coalition was nothing but a lifeline thrown to a drowning Liberal Party. I'm glad Harper and Micheal Jean stopped us from committing that blunder.
Anyways, that's all water under the bridge. I notice all the Liberals are tweeting like mad about how great it is that their party has independently-minded women who speak their mind. I predict this will last until she announces a switch, when they will suddenly turn on her like a pack of wolves.
I think Warren Kinsella will be spending part of his time helping John Tory in the mayoral race of Toronto.
Based on looking at the House of Commons videos on CPAC, I think "président(e)" has a slightly different meaning than the English word, president. I'm guessing the French version can include a leader such as Speaker of the House of Commons. Chauffeur is another word that has different meanings in French and English. In French, it's a driver; in English, it's a limo-driver or someone who drives another person around.
I think Warren Kinsella will be spending part of his time helping John Tory in the mayoral race of Toronto.
He says on his website that because the next federal election is not likely to be for at least six months, he is focusing his attention on the municipal and provincial politics. Two problems with this explanation: 1) the next municipal and provincial elections are even further away and 2) it just seems a little too co-incidental with the house-cleaning in the OLO and the ascendancy of Donolo and his new team, n'est-ce pas?
Ironically, Kinsella's bare-knuckle style is something the Liberals need right now. It worked wonders for Chretien, and it's probably no accident that the Liberal party suffered from a lack of killer instinct (not to mention basic political communication skills) when those of the Kinsella school found themselves in exile in the Martin interregnum.
Liberals will have to be dragged kicking and screaming to their grave. Just think of all those padded government contracts that screw Joe and Jane taxpayer, and the only reason that most of those Liberals are involved in politics for in the first place.
Experience has shown us that the best thing to do in politics to a Liberal when they are down, is to kick them again and again for good riddance.
Charming. You have done that? "experience has shown us"
Experience has shown us that the best thing to do in politics to a Liberal when they are down, is to kick them again and again for good riddance.
Kinsella's bare-knuckle style is something the Liberals need right now. It worked wonders for Chretien, and it's probably no accident that the Liberal party suffered from a lack of killer instinct (not to mention basic political communication skills) when those of the Kinsella school found themselves in exile in the Martin interregnum.
Not sure I agree with you. It's been his tactics they've been using since September. Basically it's been a lot of noise and fury, but missing the big issues of the day. I think it's a good part of why they're in this mess. You can't scream patronage against the Conservatives when you're the party of the sponsorship scandal.
Warren is now a right-wing Liberal, and doesn't disagree with much of the policy thrust of the Conservative government, so they're not going to do anything really progressive on climate change, EI, foreign policy, income support, or the pension system. His analysis was that the Conservatives would defeat themselves and the Liberals just had to wait for that to happen and become the government-in-waiting by default. It hasn't worked out that way, because people needed to hear something more from the Liberals.
Warren is still fighting the last election and trying to relive the good old days. I'm not sure he has the recipe for what would turn the ship around now. His financial interests are too vested in the status quo.
Kinsella spends too much time in the blogosphere arguing with, and litigating against, pure idiots. He's out of touch with the real world. He has the Liberals making the exact same error Joe Clark made trying to outflank the loonie right from the right. It won't work and it's stupid and, as it did Joe Clark, will cost them the broad middle.
It makes me wonder as well whether there's been some discussion re Dion himself crossing the floor.
I remember Jack praising Dion during the Liberal leadership race as a decent guy, therefore unlikely to win the Liberal race. If Dion did cross, that would be MAJOR part of a MAJOR transformation of the party system, such as the NDP topping the Liberals in seat standings and votes after the next election. WOW
I posted this story because I think Janine makes some good points and it's time for the Liberals to start having some important discussions about their identity and their future and hear some tough talk about their behavior.
But it's also important to be realistic about certain things as sometimes on this board realism tends to get lost. Janine is unlikely to run for any other party for 2 reasons: 1) She is married to Dion and he is likely to stay Liberal and I don't think she would want to run for a different party than her husband, and 2) I don't think she is interested in seeking elected office anyway.
As for Dion, it is unlikely he will switch to the NDP either as he considers himself a committed Liberal. He also occupies a safe seat that is unlikely to go NDP even if he did want to switch.
Fuck you Debator.
You post the most unrealistic crap of anybody here here, bar none.
It makes me wonder as well whether there's been some discussion re Dion himself crossing the floor.
I remember Jack praising Dion during the Liberal leadership race as a decent guy, therefore unlikely to win the Liberal race. If Dion did cross, that would be MAJOR part of a MAJOR transformation of the party system, such as the NDP topping the Liberals in seat standings and votes after the next election. WOW
I posted this story because I think Janine makes some good points and it's time for the Liberals to start having some important discussions about their identity and their future and hear some tough talk about their behavior.
But it's also important to be realistic about certain things as sometimes on this board realism tends to get lost. Janine is unlikely to run for any other party for 2 reasons: 1) She is married to Dion and he is likely to stay Liberal and I don't think she would want to run for a different party than her husband, and 2) I don't think she is interested in seeking elected office anyway.
As for Dion, it is unlikely he will switch to the NDP either as he considers himself a committed Liberal. He also occupies a safe seat that is unlikely to go NDP even if he did want to switch.
Wow, just when you think things can't get any worse for the Libs, another bombshell hits! This reminds me of another incident from the 2006 Lib leadership campaign - didn't Irwin Cotler's wife either quit or threaten to quit the party when Iggy made his "war crime" comment on the Israeli Gaza bombings (one of the few courageous and correct statements Iggy has ever made, and naturally, he retracted it shortly thereafter).
It would be just incredible if Dion crossed the floor to the NDP - he'd have to sit as an independent and vote with the NDP MPs until a by-election or general election to allow him to formally join the caucus. Apparently Mulcair absolutely despises Dion and that's one of the reasons he ran for the NDP - would love to be a fly on the wall at that first caucus meeting! I don't think it will really happen though, this is more likely a prelude to Dion's retirement from politics.
This is the first big test for the Donolo regime - there is no way Dion or Iggy can avoid making a public statement on JK's blog posting. I'm sure Donolo will want Dion to say something like "that's her view, I don't share it, I'm behind Ignatieff all the way" but I don't think Dion would debase himself in that way, it would have zero credibility as he has always said Janine is his main political adviser and strategist. Plus Iggy basically knifed Dion during the coalition crisis and I'm sure Dion has waited for payback time.
This is really getting like the John Turner leadership rebellions of the '80s - I love it!
Dion is unlikely to publicly disagree with his wife. I have a hard time assuming that he was not aware of the post before she hit send--
I am inclined to think that he will resign shortly. I suspect there will be no dramatic floor crossings for either of them and any support they might offer the NDP or the Liberals whichever they decide may be private.
That she has expressed concern about the direction of the Liberal Party may have been calculated as something that he could not and would not do. It mat be that there will be nothing more to it than this-- of course the embarassment is significant to the party and the loss on the environmental and left side of the party in Quebec will have a cost.
If the Liberals try to move to the right without trying to guard their left, it will be a gamble but it would not be a certain loss. The breaking with the left might allow Ignatief to chew off some of Harper's more moderate supporters. The idea may be that the NDP would always support the Liberals first in a governing arrangement-- and coalitions are off the table-- we would be talking of an accord at best. If the strategy works a bigger NDP with a Liberal party that has taken as much as it lost from the Cons would be in a stronger position. Of course the strategy could fail with the losses to the NDP not being replaced by gains from the Cons. It is also possible the Liberals could lose 3-4 points to the NDP and another 5-8 to the Cons and fall to a rump with few if any seats. For the NDP, this result could give the party a boost in the popular vote and practically no increase in seats-- some losses to the Cons where the Liberals bled away together with a few wins from the Liberals. Longer term, the NDP could make gains but in the short term, the result could be quite negative.
In any case, there are a lot of possible outcomes here, unfortunately most of them lead to a Con majority, one that might last a while, even a future leadership change in the Con party. If Harper is able to pass the torch to another Con leader in the future, it is possible that this party will govern Canada long enough to remake it in its own image. I am not a Liberal supporter but I would hold back on the glee here, the country may be in for a very rough ride as this transition happens. As well, mid way it could reverse itself and the Liberals could be reborn-- we may pay the price of a death of the Liberal party in a long Con reign only to see the buggers get reborn before the NDP ever take power. Too many variables to assume this will go well in the end.
I remember Jack praising Dion during the Liberal leadership race as a decent guy, therefore unlikely to win the Liberal race. If Dion did cross, that would be MAJOR part of a MAJOR transformation of the party system, such as the NDP topping the Liberals in seat standings and votes after the next election. WOW
Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Dion doesn't bring much to the party, so to speak. If he changes parties that's an embarassment for the Liberals but not a huge gain for the NDP.
Yogi Berra once said: "It ain't over till it's over", but Me & Boo Boo don't think that Ms. Krieber's 'dinger' will spark a rally, in these late innings.
Fuck you Debator.
There's no need to use that type of verbally abusive language towards another poster. I have never used that language towards you.
That type of response almost calls for a complaint to a moderator.
Guy couldn't even spell your name right. I like your presence Debater even though I'm pretty partisan NDP.
Meh, interweb.
C'est la vie.
I actually think that enigmatic reference in her last paragraph of "looking elsewhere" could really only be the NDP. Not because I would characterise it that way, because it would be consistent with the way someone who has been through what she has would say. It doesn't all fit for the Greens, or municipal politics.
But I don't think it indicates in any way what she might actually DO- even less what Dion might. His declare intention to re-offer is obviously not because he loves the status quo. He can stay as long as she only lets fly on rare occassions- and thats what it is so far.
Its mostly "just" more bad new for the Libs. [And lots more of that kind waiting in the wings.]
Liberals will have to be dragged kicking and screaming to their grave. Just think of all those padded government contracts that screw Joe and Jane taxpayer, and the only reason that most of those Liberals are involved in politics for in the first place.
Experience has shown us that the best thing to do in politics to a Liberal when they are down, is to kick them again and again for good riddance.
This sounds a lot like the stuff you would see on a forum at Fox News - not on a progressive web forum.
Harper and his band of neo-cons have truly changed political discourse in Canada. This kind of Republican Party teabag vulgarity should not be a part of progressive political discourse.
Yea, it's so much better when you screw over the people that you're polite about it.
Mcleans wonderful new addition spews forth:
That Krieber manifesto, short version
http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/11/22/that-krieber-manifesto-short-version/
Yea, it's so much better when you screw over the people that you're polite about it.
Aye.
I'm not sure a few years of Harper have as much influence on the current political situation, and it's style, than the party that untill recently was Canada's Natural Governing Party.
Forever, the Liberals have been utilizing the bait and switch, and moved to the right so far that bait and switch doesn't work with enough people anymore. So, people either don't vote, or vote for the real McHarper.
And who stole 50 billion from Canadian Workers? Well, it was both Martin and Chretien, so the idea that there's two camps in the Liberal Party, one right wing and the other left or progressive is absolute malarky. There's two camps alright, one unabashedly right wing, and one crypto right wing.
And it has always been so.
quote: "And it has always been so."
The Liberal movement to the right has resulted from a polling chase as the Cons rode out of the west using the same techniques as the Republicans since the late 70s. Lower taxes. It reversed the earlier trend dating from the 30s "the CCFers are Liberals in a hurry", that lasted up until the moment when the Chicago School introduced the corporate pursuit of loweer tax regimes and globalization came to be.
And it's all been a chase after votes. Perhaps the voter should realize the error of his/her ways? Wish to hell Naomi Klein would say it out loud rather than playing the political game.
And who stole 50 billion from Canadian Workers? Well, it was both Martin and Chretien, so the idea that there's two camps in the Liberal Party, one right wing and the other left or progressive is absolute malarky. There's two camps alright, one unabashedly right wing, and one crypto right wing.
And it has always been so.
I only half agree with this-- as a description of who is running the party, I'd have to agree completely. But in terms of supporters-- the voting and membership base not at all and that is where the current news fits in. There are many people in the party to the left of this very right wing leadership and some of them from time to time even get elected as MPs-- even Dion may be one. That the structure of the party and its direction is a fraud risks the consequences of exposure of this reality. It is a core desire on the part of many New Dems to have those Liberals move to the NDP vaulting them over the carcass of a dying Liberal party.
Many people on Babble show more hatred for the Liberals at times than the Cons for the same reason. The Cons do not pretend to reach out to people who share a progressive vision of the country. The Liberals all to often rhetorically take the same space as the NDP with more resources and no real committment and conviction. It can never be a real contest of ideas as long as the stalking horse (Liberals) out-does the real thing in debates about many issues that matter. Many of us instinctively feel that if the Liberals' record, intentions and inclinations were really understood that party would have no constituency and faced with an honest run-off between the right wing vision of Canada and the NDP-- the NDP would win. I don't assume the latter but do agree the NDP COULD win in such a circumstance. The danger of the Liberals is not just that they are a fraud but that this fraud succeeds and absorbs resources and support that it never serves.
I can imagine another scenario, which would likely be reading an awful lot into what Ms. Krieber wrote, but it does sound like she's hinting at an alternate party. Her last paragraph, among other things, says "certain things are attractive. Like a dedicated party that doesn't challenge its leader at every hiccup in the polls."
Well people have called up notions of the NDP or even the Greens. Perhaps there'd be an idea for a brand new party. When you consider how Dion won his place leading the Liberals in the first place, and then that he managed to put together the whole coalition option, one thing is pretty clear, he's good at negotiating a certain sort of collaboration.
What if he were to negotiate not a combination of the NDP and Greens but rather convinced both of those parties to become part of an entirely new party? That would ease certain conflicts each might have if they were just to come together on their own, since it would be in service of a new third option. It would also create space for a new leader that didn't have to be a choice between Layton, May, or Dion (and we've seen both Layton and May publicly praise Dion). Finally, it would enable both the NDP and the Greens to leave behind some of the baggage they've been stereotyped as carrying, which seems to prevent them from garnering more votes. This scenario could however, still allow the new party to gain the combined support each would bring (which would altogether be greater than the current Liberal level of support--according to recent polls).
Anyway, it's fun to speculate, even if that isn't a very likely outcome.
Also at times people refer to something attractive that does not exist, and will not exist. There is no intent implied in the post. She may also be referring to a new Liberal party under new leadership without the problems of this current one. Her post needs more context and she will have the time to consider what she really wants to say before providing that.
Also at times people refer to something attractive that does not exist, and will not exist. There is no intent implied in the post. She may also be referring to a new Liberal party under new leadership without the problems of this current one. Her post needs more context and she will have the time to consider what she really wants to say before providing that.
That's a huge stretch. She says that she's looking around her, and seeing some things that please her. She's not hypothetically looking around her and hypothetically seeing things. Hell, the last line of her post, "Je ne rêve peut-être pas - I might not be dreaming" out and out refutes any possibility that she's speaking in the hypothetical.
she may be speaking about new leadership for the Liberals-- everyone else is -- why not her?
That is not any more hypothetical than anything else
You think she wants to revive a party that she caracterises as on the verge of being relegated to the ash heaps of history?
I agree with Chajusong, the way her closing paragraph is worded it is not like she is talking about a hypothetical dream. She says maybe I'm not dreaming - as in "maybe what I'm looking for is right there before my eyes" and quite frankly the words she uses to describe what she wants is a pretty apt description of the NDP
Read her words carefully - "I am looking around me, and certain things are attractive (i.e. they exist right now). Like a dedicated party that doesn't challenge its leader at every hiccup in the polls (sounds like the NDP). A party where the rule would be the principle of pleasure, and not assassination (sounds more or less like the NDP). A party where work ethic and competence would be respected and where smiles would be real. (sounds like the NDP)
Maybe I'm not dreaming.(your not, visit ndp.ca)
I heard Francoise Boivin give a speech about her move from the Liberals to the NDP and she said that one of the best things about being in the NDP was waking up in the morning and NOT having 20 knives stuck in her back!
Well people have called up notions of the NDP or even the Greens. Perhaps there'd be an idea for a brand new party. When you consider how Dion won his place leading the Liberals in the first place, and then that he managed to put together the whole coalition option, one thing is pretty clear, he's good at negotiating a certain sort of collaboration.
What if he were to negotiate not a combination of the NDP and Greens but rather convinced both of those parties to become part of an entirely new party? That would ease certain conflicts each might have if they were just to come together on their own, since it would be in service of a new third option. It would also create space for a new leader that didn't have to be a choice between Layton, May, or Dion (and we've seen both Layton and May publicly praise Dion). Finally, it would enable both the NDP and the Greens to leave behind some of the baggage they've been stereotyped as carrying, which seems to prevent them from garnering more votes. This scenario could however, still allow the new party to gain the combined support each would bring (which would altogether be greater than the current Liberal level of support--according to recent polls).
I couldn't resist - and the name of the new party will be called the "new Liberal Party". Considering it is the liberal brand that is damaged, through all dense associations with corporate Canada and making empty promises to get elected. And considering that the Greens haven't got one elected MP, and considering that in the last election Layton was way more popular a leader than either May or Dion why would the NDP party joined this trojan horse???
Sure sounds desperate, for sure. finally the NDP is getting the respect and media coverage it disserves - thanks NDP - you make this social democrat proud!
It is a possible reading-- but not the only one. You are assuming more care in her writing than may be there. She also thought those things about her husband's leadership at one time and may be referring to that choice the Liberals had.
The inclination to see the NDP in every positive description of what the Liberals could be is natural- for New Dems- but not as obvious for others.
Before your eyes is the NDP fair enough-- before her eyes may be a new leadership for the Liberals. She could just as easily be thinking about Leblanc as leader- especially since he is not part of one camp in spite of having gone to Ignatieff.
I think it is possible that she is speaking of the NDP-- maybe even likely-- but it is not certain and we need to be careful here.
I'm not trying to put words in her mouth and only Mme. Krieber knows exactly what she meant to say. But the way i read her words, it sounded like she was referring to seeing something around NOW, not something that she wistfully would like to see in the future.
It makes me wonder as well whether there's been some discussion re Dion himself crossing the floor.
I remember Jack praising Dion during the Liberal leadership race as a decent guy, therefore unlikely to win the Liberal race. If Dion did cross, that would be MAJOR part of a MAJOR transformation of the party system, such as the NDP topping the Liberals in seat standings and votes after the next election. WOW
I posted this story because I think Janine makes some good points and it's time for the Liberals to start having some important discussions about their identity and their future and hear some tough talk about their behavior.
But it's also important to be realistic about certain things as sometimes on this board realism tends to get lost. Janine is unlikely to run for any other party for 2 reasons: 1) She is married to Dion and he is likely to stay Liberal and I don't think she would want to run for a different party than her husband, and 2) I don't think she is interested in seeking elected office anyway.
As for Dion, it is unlikely he will switch to the NDP either as he considers himself a committed Liberal. He also occupies a safe seat that is unlikely to go NDP even if he did want to switch.
As often. Debater you make good points. But I think the discussion of Dion or other Liberals crossing the floor to the NDP is significant, just as when there was some talk of Sheila possibly crossing. It indicates a possible realingment of the parties. I'm sure you noted the reference to Martin dissing Chretien and we know what that and stabbing Sheila meant for the Liberals. I think we may be seeing Act two of that shift with Dion getting dumped t and the internal conflict raging on
NorthReport that was an unprovoked and gratuitous attack. Don't do that again.
It makes me wonder as well whether there's been some discussion re Dion himself crossing the floor.
I remember Jack praising Dion during the Liberal leadership race as a decent guy, therefore unlikely to win the Liberal race. If Dion did cross, that would be MAJOR part of a MAJOR transformation of the party system, such as the NDP topping the Liberals in seat standings and votes after the next election. WOW
I posted this story because I think Janine makes some good points and it's time for the Liberals to start having some important discussions about their identity and their future and hear some tough talk about their behavior.
But it's also important to be realistic about certain things as sometimes on this board realism tends to get lost. Janine is unlikely to run for any other party for 2 reasons: 1) She is married to Dion and he is likely to stay Liberal and I don't think she would want to run for a different party than her husband, and 2) I don't think she is interested in seeking elected office anyway.
As for Dion, it is unlikely he will switch to the NDP either as he considers himself a committed Liberal. He also occupies a safe seat that is unlikely to go NDP even if he did want to switch.
As often. Debater you make good points. But I think the discussion of Dion or other Liberals crossing the floor to the NDP is significant, just as when there was some talk of Sheila possibly crossing. It indicates a possible realingment of the parties. I'm sure you noted the reference to Martin dissing Chretien and we know what that and stabbing Sheila meant for the Liberals. I think we may be seeing Act two of that shift with Dion getting dumped t and the internal conflict raging on
Yes, as I think you and I talked about earlier this year, I did not like the way Sheila Copps was treated by Paul Martin and it was what lead me to leave the Liberal Party in 2004 and support the NDP in that year's election.
I agree with Janine's point that the left of centre Liberals in the party have been treated badly by the Martin camp and now the Ignatieff camp and that it is time the Liberals stop doing it or they may lose some of those Liberal-NDP voters to the NDP.
But just as Sheila Copps turned out to be loyal to the Liberal Party even though she was treated badly and decided not to join the NDP, I also think it is unlikely that Dion will join the NDP either. He is also committed to the Liberal Party even though he hasn't been treated as respectfully as he should have been.
Fruit of the poisoned tree should all hang together, anyway.
A bit of background
Janine Krieber: l'atout du chef
http://www.cyberpresse.ca/actualites/elections-federales-2009/partis/par...
La femme de Stéphane Dion critique Ignatieff sur Facebook
Janine Krieber, dans un statut Facebook rapidement supprimé, s'interroge sur la capacité de Michael Ignatieff à sortir le Parti libéral de la crise profonde qu'il traverse.
http://www.cyberpresse.ca/actualites/elections-federales-2009/partis/par...
Janine Krieber is a terrorism and international security expert. I wonder if she supports the so-called "Afghan mission."
she may be speaking about new leadership for the Liberals-- everyone else is -- why not her?
That is not any more hypothetical than anything else
I don't think that is a reasonable interpretation - she clearly says in her blog post that the Liberal party is falling apart and won't recover from the current crisis. That means she is talking about a different party and hints strongly that that party already exists. Could be the NDP, could be the Greens, knowing that May and Dion had the infamous "deal" in the 2008 election. Given the Greens are non-existent in Quebec, I'm thinking the NDP is the more likely reference from JK's post, but only she knows for sure.
I agree Dion won't cross the floor to the NDP but I think his position in caucus will be untenable unless he publicly disavows JK's statement, which is something he's very unlikely to do. It's unimaginable that she would post something of this nature unless she felt that Dion shared her opinion.
My guess is that Dion will disavow as quietly as possible. Apparently he had a part in the post being removed, so it is not at all clear what his role in its initial posting was. I would imagine a statement that the post did not match his views with as little clarification as possible will come out from the Dion camp sometime soon.
For the most part the theatrics are mostly energy candy for NDP political junkies. Having gone down this road over and over again, I am waiting for something of more substance to happen before I get too excited. Looking at the death of parties in the past, it requires a combination of hatred, incompetence and ridicule for a party to shed core support. I don't see that yet.
she may be speaking about new leadership for the Liberals-- everyone else is -- why not her?
That is not any more hypothetical than anything else
I don't think that is a reasonable interpretation - she clearly says in her blog post that the Liberal party is falling apart and won't recover from the current crisis. That means she is talking about a different party and hints strongly that that party already exists. Could be the NDP, could be the Greens, knowing that May and Dion had the infamous "deal" in the 2008 election. Given the Greens are non-existent in Quebec, I'm thinking the NDP is the more likely reference from JK's post, but only she knows for sure.
I agree Dion won't cross the floor to the NDP but I think his position in caucus will be untenable unless he publicly disavows JK's statement, which is something he's very unlikely to do. It's unimaginable that she would post something of this nature unless she felt that Dion shared her opinion.
According to most of the reports that came out today, Dion did not want her to post it and did not agree with it.
...not truly because he disagrees, I'd bet, but because of the tempest in a teapot it was bound to create.
Fuck you Debator.
You post the most unrealistic crap of anybody here here, bar none.
This is so unnecessary. If you find yourself attacking someone like this regularly, then either step back from the keyboard, or ignore their posts.
...Looking at the death of parties in the past, it requires a combination of hatred, incompetence and ridicule for a party to shed core support. I don't see that yet.
This is an important point and the reason parties usually don't die from the opposition benches but usually from government. If a party survives being thrown out of government it is unlikley it will become extinct. The above explains in part why it is parties being thrown out of office that are most at risk. Hard to hate an opposition party-- usually when it is no longer useful you just don't think about it which gives it time to recover.
In the case of the Liberals they are unlikely to go away-- their big risk comes from being passed by the NDP-- this would not kill them but it could relegate them to a third party status that they may not escape. The perfect storm would be for the party to fall behind the NDP and then have an unsuccessful leadership change. So if Ignatieff lead the Liberals to a collapse -- they will likely have one more chance to recover-- the next leader. If that leader is a dud then the party will be done for a generation. In the past the Liberals rarely have had multiple dud leaders in a row.
Personally, think it was all Liberal smoke and mirrors to give the pretense there is a nice, and a left, side to the Liberal Party that needs to be gotten back to.
And to increase their public political media presence, while also taking the heat off of Ignatieff and refocusing te knives elsewhere...
A couple of days from now the Liberals will have a press conference, or a photo op, assuring everyone they have gotten their act together now and are moving in the right direction.
Well, he said that he had a strategy that involved one of the parties currently in the House polling around ten per cent. He may hitn that target yet, but with his own party.
According to most of the Liberal reports you mean.
she may be speaking about new leadership for the Liberals-- everyone else is -- why not her?
That is not any more hypothetical than anything else
I don't think that is a reasonable interpretation - she clearly says in her blog post that the Liberal party is falling apart and won't recover from the current crisis. That means she is talking about a different party and hints strongly that that party already exists. Could be the NDP, could be the Greens, knowing that May and Dion had the infamous "deal" in the 2008 election. Given the Greens are non-existent in Quebec, I'm thinking the NDP is the more likely reference from JK's post, but only she knows for sure.
I agree Dion won't cross the floor to the NDP but I think his position in caucus will be untenable unless he publicly disavows JK's statement, which is something he's very unlikely to do. It's unimaginable that she would post something of this nature unless she felt that Dion shared her opinion.
According to most of the reports that came out today, Dion did not want her to post it and did not agree with it.
According to most reports I heard over the weekend this is just another political disaster for the Liberals. It is now just one problem after another coming in constantly for Ignatieff with no letup.
Family spat spells more PR misery for Liberals
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/dions-wife-goes-rogue-famil...
This is big news and sure to do lasting damage to the Liberals. The reason being is Krieber is saying what a sizeable portion of the voting public have been observing and thinking ever since Chretien was ousted in a coup by Martin, years ago.
As long as you have the Martinites such as Reid, Zed, Ignatieff etc. in control the Liberals might as well join the Conservatives because they are as right-wing as Harper and it's painfully obvious to see.
Les indiscrétions de Mme Dion
Changement d'allégeance?Janine Krieber, dit amorcer une «réflexion sérieuse» et songe ouvertement à changer de parti.
«Je ne veux pas donner ma voix à un parti qui risque de finir dans les poubelles de l'histoire», affirme-t-elle.
Elle souhaite plutôt appuyer une formation qui ne conteste pas son chef à chaque soubresaut dans les sondages, et au sein duquel l'éthique de travail et la compétence sont respectées. Elle conclut en ajoutant: «Je ne rêve peut-être pas.»
Selon Françoise Boivin, ex-députée libérale passée au NPD, cet épisode témoigne du «vent de panique» qui s'est installé au PLC avec la succession de sondages défavorables depuis le mois de septembre. Mais elle assure que sa formation accueillera à bras ouverts les libéraux qui auront déchanté.
«Quand elle a dit qu'elle cherche un parti où l'on ne mange pas les chefs de l'intérieur, on s'est sentis agréablement visés», a indiqué Mme Boivin.
http://www.cyberpresse.ca/actualites/quebec-canada/politique-canadienne/...
Chantal Hébert just posted on her blog that the Greens are announcing a new Deputy Leader for Québec in Montréal tomorrow, and she hinted that it'll be Dion. That's disappointing...
Please provide a link
GIYF
Mais j’en connais un qui va dévoiler demain à Montréal l’identité d’un nouveau chef-adjoint pour le Québec :
Avis de conférence de presse: Le Parti vert du Canada présente son nouveau chef-adjoint pour le Québec
If this is true it will confirm that Dion is prone to make bad choices. Why would someone want to go from leader of a political party into complete political oblivion
I think Hebert's just teasing and the Green announcement is most likely coincidental. But regardless, I imagine the benefit Dion would bring to either the Greens or the NDP would be marginal compared to the damage his departure would inflict upon the Liberals. It would be a catastrophe.
Dion does not bring benefits. He is a locomotive looking for a place to derail. This likeable guy is a political trainwreck. No matter what party he goes to that party will inheret a person that has no political instincts. He will create some discomfort for the LPC by leaving, but Dion adds nothing to any parties portfolio. Dion has the unique ability to cause damage to a party he is leaving and damage to the party he arrives at.
Perhaps he is leaving electoral politics. I cannot see him having the strength to be in a party like the NDP. It would require stepping down and running under the banner. I cannot see him stepping down and helping the NDP with policy.
However I can see him stepping down leaving electoral politics and attempting to work as a policy advisor to the Green Party.
Not that anything will come of it in the short or long run.
I view this as the 2nd least amount of damage Dion can do.
The least amount of damage would be to resign and leave politics in its entirety. This wouldn't hurt the LPC or anyone else.
I also wonder how Dion is going to pay off his leadership debt?
Janine Krieber's letter a last gasp as the door shuts on the Liberal left
I'm laughing because what Liberal left is he talking about.
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/11/23/...
I can see a scenario where Dion packs it in and Ms Krieber decides to seek a nominaton or move to support another party. I don't know about anyone else, but I have never found my spouse to simply be an echo chamber for my views, so I think it is totally sexist to think that Ms Krieber might not have a few thoughts of her own on political matters.
Krieber has obviously touched a nerve with more than a few Liberals.
Liberals awake to new nadir
problems lie at the root of the party's misfortunes: first, weak and divided leadership has made it difficult for the Liberals to re-establish a party machine in French Quebec, in Ontario outside the big cities, in the Lower Mainland of British Columbia, and in winnable Prairie cities such as Regina and Winnipeg.
As a result, the old fissures in the party are re-emerging: the Bob Rae camp chafing at Mr. Ignatieff's alleged ineptitude, the regional wings lacerating the Toronto-centric leader's office.
Second, the Liberals don't stand for anything. Mr. Dion courageously trumpeted an environmental agenda that most voters didn't buy or didn't care about. Mr. Ignatieff, in contrast, speaks of fighting global warming, of reining in the deficit, of making Canada more competitive in global markets.
The Conservatives mouth the same platitudes, but at least they have budgets and legislation to put flesh on the bones of their priorities, which also include an emphasis on law-and-order and a new kind of red-meat patriotism - celebrating the armed forces and offering a robust new definition of citizenship to immigrants hoping to gain it - that the Liberals are unable to respond to.
Meanwhile, Prime Minister Stephen Harper has been to India and is soon on his way to China, in part to persuade new Canadians that a Conservative government shares their values and values their votes, threatening a core element of what is left of the Liberal base.
Peter Donolo, Mr. Ignatieff's newly minted chief of staff, no doubt tells himself: here is where we are at; the trajectory can only go up.
It will only go up marginally, however, unless the latest Liberal Leader can conjure a convincing picture of Canada under his leadership - one specific enough for us to imagine it, and to be engaged by it.
For now, people shake their heads over drinks in bars, and share quietly with each other the sentiments Ms. Kreiber shouted out loud.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blogs/bureau-blog/liberals-awake-to-new-n...
That is a fair point, but Dion has indicated that she was his most trusted political advisor which suggests that their views were somewhat aligned (at one time).
I'm laughing because what Liberal left is he talking about.
Well, one advantage the left caucus of the Liberal Party has is that they can all still meet if martial law is declared.
I'm laughing because what Liberal left is he talking about.
Well, one advantage the left caucus of the Liberal Party has is that they can all still meet if martial law is declared.
you mean they can all meet under the same culvert?
Dion was replaced because he brought the party down to 26%. Iggy brought it down to 23%. So, when will Iggy be replaced?
Boom Boom good one LOL. Good for the goose, good for the gander.
Dion's pledging loyalty to Ignatieff. Or more accurately, Iggy is vouching for Dion's pledge. ("I just spoke to Stephane," yadda yadda.)
NDP Leader Jack Layton, meanwhile, dodged questions about whether Krieber has made any overtures about joining his party.
"Well, of course we're watching the conflicts that are going on in the Liberal party. It's kind of hard to avoid. But I'm paying attention to our own party," he said.
"So far, our members and their spouses too, I guess ... seem to be working as a team and we're going to pay attention to that objective."
http://www.am1150.ca/news/14/1027024
Wouldn't you love to be listening to the dinner conversation at the Dion-Krieber residence tonite.
How do you know there is any conversation?
Dion's pledging loyalty to Ignatieff. Or more accurately, Iggy is vouching for Dion's pledge. ("I just spoke to Stephane," yadda yadda.)
NDP Leader Jack Layton, meanwhile, dodged questions about whether Krieber has made any overtures about joining his party.
"Well, of course we're watching the conflicts that are going on in the Liberal party. It's kind of hard to avoid. But I'm paying attention to our own party," he said.
"So far, our members and their spouses too, I guess ... seem to be working as a team and we're going to pay attention to that objective."
http://www.am1150.ca/news/14/1027024
Why do the Dion spokesperson-Iggy comments remind me so much of a General Manager of a sports team the day before they trade their player they have so much faith in?
How do you know there is any conversation?
If it is anything like my household someone is quitely slamming around the pots in the kitchen and then almost dropping the plate on the table while they stare off into space. Not that I have ever had that happen to me mind
you mean they can all meet under the same culvert?
Phone booth. The new kind.
They don't even call it the "left" caucus, they call it the nano-caucus.
I'm curious why the remarks were yanked so quickly from the Facebook page.
But then again, perhaps they weren't. Possibly they had been up there for quite some time, but someone only noticed it recently.
Or maybe either Scott Reid or Paul Zed obtained her Facebook page code, and removed it. Nothing would surprise me coming from either of those two.
Yea, it's so much better when you screw over the people that you're polite about it.
Hatred towards people you disagree with is also a political decision.
Basic human decency is still important in politics, even in our age of cynical wedge issues and hyper-partisanship. One of the things that differentiates the NDP from the Conservatives is the higher level of civility in the NDP. You can tell a lot about a party by its level of civility. The Conservatives have perfected the art of personal destruction. It's hard to believe there was once a time when Broadbent, Trudeau, and Clark would publicly show respect for each other. This mutual respect helped people believe in the political process and the possibilities of collective action. But the advent of the Reform Party changed all that. The neo-CONS have brought a much greater level of meaness to our political landscape.
But most Canadians have continued to shun the politics of personal destruction. If there's one thing that's kept Harper from a majority, it's been his crude partisanship. In contrast to the neo-CONS, the NDP should show Canadians that the NDP acts in the interests of all Canadians.
This requires treating all Canadians with civility, be they NDP, BQ, Liberal, or Conservative.
I'm curious why the remarks were yanked so quickly from the Facebook page.
But then again, perhaps they weren't. Possibly they had been up there for quite some time, but someone only noticed it recently.
In the note, time stamped 4:16 p.m. Friday
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/outspoken-wife-of-stphane-d...
JKR, I think you are right. Extreme partisanship is never attractive, even if it is in the service of righting old wrongs.
I think a constant campaign in the House of civility would dovetail nicely with Jack's "lets get back to work" campaign. It conveys a certain maturity and confidence that has the added benefit of infuriating ones opponents.
Dion was replaced because he brought the party down to 26%. Iggy brought it down to 23%. So, when will Iggy be replaced?
Actually, the lowest the Liberals polled with Dion as leader was 21% when they were tied with the NDP.
Actually, the lowest the Liberals polled with Dion as leader was 21% when they were tied with the NDP.
Odd how the media never quote the most devasting line:
(Does "une pauvre petite chose" really translate only as "weakling?" It sounds even more scathing to me.)
Which leads to what everyone quotes:
("certain things are attractive?" That could be hypothetical, but she wrote "il y a certaines choses qui me plaisent." "There are certain things . . ." Also "where smiles would be real" seems milder than the bitter "les sourires ne seraient pas factices" -- "smiles would not be fake.")
Back to the main point: "Like all liberal parties in Europe, it will become a weakling at the mercy of ephemeral coalitions. By refusing the historic coalition that would have placed it at the helm of the left, it will be punished by history." Her father was Austrian; she and Dion completed their respective Doctoral degrees at Sciences-Po in Paris. She is predicting the long-overdue collapse of centrism in Canada, and she considers herself a woman of the left, perhaps like those other Sciences-Po alumnae Simone Veil, Ségolène Royal, and Martine Aubry.
This is not a trivial statement, and cannot be so easily erased.
She sounds to me like the person that should be leading the LPC, not Iggy.
From the sounds of it, she's too smart for that job, hopefully she acts on her obvious desire to work together with others at building a real alternative to the two corrupt old rightwing establishment parties.
I'm curious why the remarks were yanked so quickly from the Facebook page.
But then again, perhaps they weren't. Possibly they had been up there for quite some time, but someone only noticed it recently.
If her profile is the one that still exists, she was posting to a rather tight circle of a couple of dozen close friends. The intimacy rather changes the context, don't you think?
It adds to the sincerity of her words, and raises another question: did one of her tight circle betray her by copying and forwarding her post? Or did she give permission?
Yet another irked Liberal
Dion's wife isn't the only one aghast at party's current mess
http://www.nationalpost.com/todays-paper/story.html?id=2258233
Wilf: "It adds to the sincerity of her words, and raises another question: did one of her tight circle betray her by copying and forwarding her post? Or did she give permission?"
One is reminded of the Paris intrigues that Voltaire and his Emilie had to brave... remarks by one or the other being revealed by friends. It speaks to the "French fact" in Canada ("francophone culture as a distinct component of Canadian society" from the Canadian Oxford Dictionary. At least, you have to love the openess of thought within the Dion family. :D
False alarm. The new deputy is Jacques Rivard a former CBC reporter.
I missed that post yesterday. Why on earth would Hebert give such a rumour any credibility at all?
This was long overdue since the previous Deputy Leader had dissapeared from even being heard from by Greens.
I wouldn't completely rule out Dion moving to the Greens as an in you face departure. But if it were to happen, the fanfare would be HUGE. No Blair Wilson this time. It would not be presaged with a "oh by the way, we're announcing the new Deputy Leader tommorow.
Closing for length.