Wish Lists

Canapathy
recent-rabble-rouser
Member: 18392
Joined: Sep 15 2009

Is the current NDP vision or plan for the future adequate or detailed enough for you?  What would you like to see changed or added to the list?

I'd like to see the party use some of its resources to educate Canadians on our lack of democracy and the benefits of proportional rep.

From Fair Vote Canada:

If people voted the same way on Oct 14, 2008 but the results tabulated using a proportional voting system, Parliament would have looked something like this:

-Cons, 38% of popular vote: 117 seats (not 143)
-Grits, 26% of popular vote: 81 seats (not 77)
-Dippers, 18% of popular vote: 57 seats (not 37)
-Bloc, 10% of popular vote: 28 seats (not 49)
-Green, 7% of popular vote: 23 seats (not 0)

The resulting government likley would have been a majority coalition led by the Liberals, with support from the NDP and Greens.

Of course people vote strategically under our current winner take all, first past the post system so it is possible that the NDP would grab some of the Liberal vote.  Though they may also loose some support to the Greens.


Comments

janfromthebruce
rabble-rouser-machine
Member: 15090
Joined: Apr 24 2007

Actually, Canapathy one would see an actual shift in voting behaviour as some folks do strategic voting in that they prefer another party but vote otherwise as they feel their vote does not count when it is caste.

A while ago an MA student did their masters on this and noted that their are a lot of NDP leaning liberal voters who would vote NDP and not liberal if we had a proportional voting system. It is for this reason that both the Liberals and conservatives do not entertain electorial reform, or if they must would go with STV, thinking that works best for them -keep the two old line parties and the power elites who support them forever in power.

I would also suspect that the Green vote would go up to; however, at the time of this thesis, GREENS weren't really anywhere on the electorial map.


skeiseid
rabble-rouser
Member: 15212
Joined: Jun 6 2007

It is a mistake to believe that STV would result in maintining the status quo -- old-line party-wise.

STV can provide a significant degree of proportionality while also affording voters the much-needed opportunity of choosing the best candidates for the job -- real voter choice.

It ain't necessarily the optimal system but it's a lot better than most flavours of MMP -- the NDPs policy "answer".

What the NDP needs to promise is to accomplish electoral reform with a process of investigation, deliberation and choice.


Boom Boom
\,,/ rabble-rouser-l33t \,,/
Member: 8791
Joined: Dec 29 2004

Darn. I was hoping this thread was about personal wishes. My wish is for world peace.Smile


skeiseid
rabble-rouser
Member: 15212
Joined: Jun 6 2007

I'm for that!

Sneakers reference?


janfromthebruce
rabble-rouser-machine
Member: 15090
Joined: Apr 24 2007

Me too and I want to be Ms. USA!! Cool


remind
\,,/ rabble-rouser-l33t \,,/
Member: 7289
Joined: Jun 25 2004

I would wish for the media to actually have some morals and accountability, we might get a long way towards to peace and fair voting if such was the case.

 


Unionist
\,,/ rabble-rouser-l33t \,,/
Member: 12323
Joined: Dec 11 2005

janfromthebruce wrote:

Me too and I want to be Ms. USA!! Cool

So do I!!!


500_Apples
rabble-rouser-machine
Member: 13684
Joined: Jun 3 2006

I wish that before the next leader's debate, some enterprising waiter spikes the coffee with truth serum.


Canapathy
recent-rabble-rouser
Member: 18392
Joined: Sep 15 2009

I'm not a fan of STV but prefer it over FPTP.  

Since, PR would obviously benefit the NDP and Jack promised to make support for PR a prerequisite to gaining his support, why has it dropped off the radar?

Some say Canadians don't care, which is true but mostly because they don't understand PR.  Actually, most Canadians don't understand our current FPTP system either.  Sure there are a lot of issues that Canadians don't understand and should be educated about but few will have such a positive impact on the party as PR will.

I get semi-frequent ten percenters from Jack in my mailbox, why not use some of those to start telling people that their vote likely doesn't create any representation for them in Ottawa?


skeiseid
rabble-rouser
Member: 15212
Joined: Jun 6 2007

If the NDP made made its support for one of the "major" parties conditional on effecting (not just investigating) electoral reform I would vote for the NDP regardless of the candidate they ran in my riding (that's a big compromise for me).

Really and truly I'd only accept MMP as a "starter system" and provided that there was a review complete with broad discussion and deliberation in the near future.

What's not to like about STV?


Canapathy
recent-rabble-rouser
Member: 18392
Joined: Sep 15 2009

skeiseid wrote:
If the NDP made made its support for one of the "major" parties conditional on effecting (not just investigating) electoral reform I would vote for the NDP regardless of the candidate they ran in my riding (that's a big compromise for me).

What if the NDP candidate had absolutely no chance of winning your riding, wouldn't you just be wasting your vote?


skeiseid wrote:
Really and truly I'd only accept MMP as a "starter system" and provided that there was a review complete with broad discussion and deliberation in the near future.

I like MMP. I think a country as geographically large and regionally diverse needs local representation, but with a proportional parliament in Ottawa.

 

skeiseid wrote:
What's not to like about STV?

I guess I'd have to be more specific since STV is actually a family of voting systems. I don't like the idea of STV being used to determine 1 winner of a riding and then creating parliament based on the sum of the riding winners. I'm less opposed to larger multi-member districts with STV being used to decide the 5 or 10 members that would represent the district. However, in Canada I think MMP does a better job of creating local representation but with a proportional parliament.

I think STV (Droop Quota) would be a great way to determine the local riding winner under a MMP system though.


Snert
rabble-rouser-supreme
Member: 16695
Joined: Nov 4 2008

Nobody's wishing for more wishes??  Wasn't anyone ever six years old?


bagkitty
rabble-rouser-machine
Member: 16443
Joined: Aug 27 2008

Unionist wrote:

janfromthebruce wrote:

Me too and I want to be Ms. USA!! Cool

So do I!!!

.

 

You realize if this is granted, you both will have to have been colonized in the first place? Careful what you wish for.


skeiseid
rabble-rouser
Member: 15212
Joined: Jun 6 2007

Canapathy wrote:

I guess I'd have to be more specific since STV is actually a family of voting systems. I don't like the idea of STV being used to determine 1 winner of a riding and then creating parliament based on the sum of the riding winners. I'm less opposed to larger multi-member districts with STV being used to decide the 5 or 10 members that would represent the district. However, in Canada I think MMP does a better job of creating local representation but with a proportional parliament.

Actually, you have it exactly backwards; MMP is a very large and diverse family of systems.

STV is quite simple and straightforward, easy to design and very rich in desirable features. STV is inherently a multi-member-per-district system.


skeiseid
rabble-rouser
Member: 15212
Joined: Jun 6 2007

Snert wrote:

Nobody's wishing for more wishes??  Wasn't anyone ever six years old?

Holy smokes! You mean there are no rules?


Mr.Canada_ts
rabble-rouser
Member: 18399
Joined: Sep 16 2009

Unfortunately a majority of people in Canada want to keep FPP system we now have in place.  I don't see that changing anytime soon.


skeiseid
rabble-rouser
Member: 15212
Joined: Jun 6 2007

Mr.Canada_ts wrote:

Unfortunately a majority of people in Canada want to keep FPP system we now have in place.  I don't see that changing anytime soon.

That's a misaprehension too. Not enough Canadians are versed enough to know what they want. But you're right about the timeframe for change.


Canapathy
recent-rabble-rouser
Member: 18392
Joined: Sep 15 2009

skeiseid wrote:
Actually, you have it exactly backwards; MMP is a very large and diverse family of systems.

STV is quite simple and straightforward, easy to design and very rich in desirable features. STV is inherently a multi-member-per-district system.



STV has variants and can be applied in different ways...look it up.

For example Instant Runoff is the STV system using Droop Quota with 1 seat.

I would be opposed to using STV to determine the winner of each current riding and then simply send the winners to Ottawa...though that would still be a very slight improvement over what we have now.

I also don't like the idea of replacing our current ridings with multi-meber super ridings that are much larger in area.  Though it would be better than what we have now.  As the area of the riding grows local areas lose representation.  Canada is large and sparesly populated, some current single member ridings are already massive in area, creating even larger ridings could mean that representatives are completely out of touch with large portions of the district.


Boom Boom
\,,/ rabble-rouser-l33t \,,/
Member: 8791
Joined: Dec 29 2004

skeiseid wrote:

I'm for that!

Sneakers reference?

No - it's from Miss Congeniality. Kiss


janfromthebruce
rabble-rouser-machine
Member: 15090
Joined: Apr 24 2007

I agree with the loss of representation. I know that as a school trustee, and sometimes there is "noise" in changing how we are elected or even appointed (yikes), and it is always about loss of the local and accountability.


skeiseid
rabble-rouser
Member: 15212
Joined: Jun 6 2007

Wikipedia isn't always the best source of information and in this case it's somewhat misleading.

Try the proceedings of the BC and Ontario Citizens' Assemblies or Farrell.

STV, while poorly named, is always assumed to be a multi-member-district system that uses the single transferrable method of tallying votes as aggregations of list votes. By rights what we generally call "STV" is a system that could use any other method of aggregating list votes and still work the way "STV" is intended. I admit it might be confusing. But in common usage, STV is just one particular system.

Technically, stv is a method of counting list votes as aggregates rankings.

 

 

.


Daniel Grice
rabble-rouser
Member: 8985
Joined: Jan 23 2005

Multimember STV is great but more suited to provincial or municipal politics. (In Ireland and Malta, they don't have a "provincial level")

It is good when you want to encourage local concerns to be raised and have regional politicians competing against each other for local support.

While is could work federally, federal politics shouldn't be "local" in the same sense that a provincial or municipal election would be and it makes it much harder for voters to differentiate between politicians.  It would probably only work federally with a small DM (1, 2 or 3 DM) tops due to our geography, and another mechanism would be needed to enhance proportionality.

Federally, you are much more voting for an ideology - foreign policy, national policies -- and any local initiatives are probably unconstitutional which really defeats one of the central benefits of STV in that it delivers effective local representation.

MMP could have some advantages, (particularly if it was AV+), but of course it probably would mean the same parliament we have now, with a few more list NDP, and Greens predominantly winning the list seats.

A parallel system, where you have a small governing council elected via strict PR, put the party leaders and cabinet in one room, and have local politicians serving as much more independent voices for their community would probably be ideal..

Other WISHES..

 

AN END TO THE WAT ON DRUGS

HIGH SPEED LIGHTRAIL IN URBAN CONNECTS

Allowing inexpensive mid speed electrics and light flex diesel vehicles onto the roads.

Protecting farmland

Better density legislation in developments.

...lots more.  But I should stop quoting my own platform..

 


skeiseid
rabble-rouser
Member: 15212
Joined: Jun 6 2007

Boom Boom wrote:

[quote=skeiseid

I'm for that!

Sneakers reference?

No - it's from Miss Congeniality. Kiss

But Sneakers too!

When the team hands over the decryption device they each ask for rewards from the government types...

Whistler: I want peace on earth and goodwill toward men.
Bernard Abbott: Oh, this is ridiculous.
Martin Bishop: He's serious.
Whistler: I want peace on earth and goodwill toward men.
Bernard Abbott: We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Martin Bishop: You're just gonna have to try.
Bernard Abbott: All right, I'll see what I can do.
Whistler: Thank you very much. That's all I ask.


Canapathy
recent-rabble-rouser
Member: 18392
Joined: Sep 15 2009

Daniel Grice wrote:
MMP could have some advantages, (particularly if it was AV+), but of course it probably would mean the same parliament we have now, with a few more list NDP, and Greens predominantly winning the list seats.
Even if the parliament resulting parliament was similar to what we have now, there would be a couple major differences. 

1) The likelihood of winning a majority would be slim so it would all but eliminate snap elections when parties feel they have a shot at a false majority government.  Which in turn could lead to som actual cooperation amongst the parties on mutually supported issues.

2) The resulting parliament would be what Canadians actually voted for.  Every vote is equal, the results are not distorted and there is no need to vote strategically. 


skeiseid
rabble-rouser
Member: 15212
Joined: Jun 6 2007

Canapathy wrote:

Daniel Grice wrote:
MMP could have some advantages, (particularly if it was AV+), but of course it probably would mean the same parliament we have now, with a few more list NDP, and Greens predominantly winning the list seats.
Even if the parliament resulting parliament was similar to what we have now, there would be a couple major differences. 

1) The likelihood of winning a majority would be slim so it would all but eliminate snap elections when parties feel they have a shot at a false majority government.  Which in turn could lead to som actual cooperation amongst the parties on mutually supported issues.

2) The resulting parliament would be what Canadians actually voted for.  Every vote is equal, the results are not distorted and there is no need to vote strategically. 

You should know that participants on babble have thrashed electoral reform to death through two Assemblies and referenda and longer. We never reached a consensus. babble's full of discussion after discussion after discussion.

Many of us are still passionate. Did you take a look at the references I mentioned?


Boom Boom
\,,/ rabble-rouser-l33t \,,/
Member: 8791
Joined: Dec 29 2004

 

Quote:
But Sneakers too!
When the team hands over the decryption device they each ask for rewards from the government types...
Whistler: I want peace on earth and goodwill toward men.

 


Yeah, I saw Sneakers a couple of times, but it was Miss Congeniality - near the end of the show (as in Sneakers) when the Sandra Bullock character says (after her tearful and humourous acceptance speech as 'Miss Congeniality') "But I really want world peace, too" or something close to that, which is what I remembered when I posted earlier. The Sneakers reference didn't hit me until I saw your post. Sneakers came out a long time ago, didn't it? I mean, Robert Redford actually looked young in that movie, he's almost a fossil nowadays.


skeiseid
rabble-rouser
Member: 15212
Joined: Jun 6 2007

Sneakers (1992)

Miss Congeniality (2000)

 

 


Canapathy
recent-rabble-rouser
Member: 18392
Joined: Sep 15 2009

skeiseid wrote:
You should know that participants on babble have thrashed electoral reform to death through two Assemblies and referenda and longer. We never reached a consensus. babble's full of discussion after discussion after discussion.

Many of us are still passionate. Did you take a look at the references I mentioned?

I'm very familiar with the citizens assembly process that took place in Ontario and BC along with the systems they recommended and ultimately voted on.

At this point the type of PR system is far less important than recognizing that we need it.  It is important for democracy and would be very beneficial for the NDP and Green parties. 

In my opinion the NDP, Green along with all of the tiny fringe parties should be educating their followers about PR and the benefits and then encouraging them to spread the word.  The process will be slow but better late than never.  


Canapathy
recent-rabble-rouser
Member: 18392
Joined: Sep 15 2009

Daniel Grice wrote:
Other WISHES..

AN END TO THE WAT ON DRUGS

HIGH SPEED LIGHTRAIL IN URBAN CONNECTS

Allowing inexpensive mid speed electrics and light flex diesel vehicles onto the roads.

Protecting farmland

Better density legislation in developments.

...lots more.  But I should stop quoting my own platform..

Great ideas and don't stop this is a Wish List thread though it has been mostly a discussion on PR and bad movies.

The NDP talks about a Green Collar Jobs fund in their platform.  I'd really like to see that tied into rapid rail transit, building retrofits and renewable energy + smart grid development. 

Rail transit helps protect farm land as well.  Car traffic between cities promotes sprawl development of services along the connecting highway.  Cars can stop anywhere so it makes sense.  Rail promotes higher density development near stops.

Like energy generation I'd like to see a lot more agricultural products produced in a distributed manner rather than in massive industrial monocultures.


skeiseid
rabble-rouser
Member: 15212
Joined: Jun 6 2007

Canapathy wrote:

skeiseid wrote:
You should know that participants on babble have thrashed electoral reform to death through two Assemblies and referenda and longer. We never reached a consensus. babble's full of discussion after discussion after discussion.

Many of us are still passionate. Did you take a look at the references I mentioned?

I'm very familiar with the citizens assembly process that took place in Ontario and BC along with the systems they recommended and ultimately voted on.

At this point the type of PR system is far less important than recognizing that we need it.  It is important for democracy and would be very beneficial for the NDP and Green parties. 

In my opinion the NDP, Green along with all of the tiny fringe parties should be educating their followers about PR and the benefits and then encouraging them to spread the word.  The process will be slow but better late than never.  

At the conclusion of the Ontario Assembly I wrote to the Minister for Democratic Renewal (or whatever it was called) to suggest that the referendum question be a two-parter -- that the first question would ask if Ontarians wanted a change from FPTP and the second to ask if that change should be to OCA-MMP. My suggestion was not taken up.

So, we wasted an opportunity and the Premier now claims that Ontarians have spoken and we want FPTP. Actually, we know nothing of the kind. This puts the cause two giant steps backwards.

The NDP policy states it would implement MMP. You would say they should change that to "PR" I trust? 

For myself, I think that PR is not enough. But as a stepping stone to something adequate with a definite upgrade path.. I would agree with you. Here, and during the OCA, I advocated investigating (and learning about) electoral reform via an exploration of what we want and need from our representative democracy -- arriving at a consensus about a suitable electoral system by coming to an agreement about our democratic values. I still think that's a good idea. But that hasn't flown there or here. [sigh]

So I attended all the public meetings of the OCA as a "participating" observer. Were you there? Maybe I saw you?


Canapathy
recent-rabble-rouser
Member: 18392
Joined: Sep 15 2009

skeiseid wrote:
The NDP policy states it would implement MMP. You would say they should change that to "PR" I trust? 

I think the NDP, Greens and their followers have to get the word out that we need some form of Proportional Rep.  If and when an appetite for something fair and democratic is created then we can discuss the best system for Canada. 

First let people know there is a problem...second go through the process of solving it.  Now this leads to my thread on how to get a message of any kind across.


skeiseid
rabble-rouser
Member: 15212
Joined: Jun 6 2007

I intend to write to Jack soon and tell him to be less denominational about particular systems.

Please feel free to add your voice to mine.

I've been on about the getting the message out for a while.

So you weren't at the OCA meetings? Too bad. There weren't many of us. Or the press...


Canapathy
recent-rabble-rouser
Member: 18392
Joined: Sep 15 2009

I wasn't present at the OCA meetings but was part of my local FVC group.  We had a few largely unproductive meetings, handed out flyers, wrote letters and visited debates.  We also raised a few bucks to advertise locally. 

I suppose it was nice to be involved but it also increased the sense of futility associated with the issue. 

I've written all of the provincial and federal candidates within 100km of my house on this issue.  I've also written all of the party leaders..except Iggy, but he's fairly new. 

Throughout the process I was amazed at the diverse opposition I enountered.  Some opposed it because they believed McGuinty was trying to ram some new system down their throats that must be beneficial to the Ontario Liberals.  Some opposed it because we've had FPTP for a long time so it must be fine.  Most simply didn't understand so they we're voting no by default. 

One guy I encountered completely understood FPTP and MMP yet still opposed it, but not for political reasons.  He told me that he knows that FPTP doesn't treat votes equally but he didn't think all votes should be equal.  In his opinion, if someone did not vote for one of the major parties then it should be wasted.  I had to agree that FPTP was the perfect system for his beliefs.


skeiseid
rabble-rouser
Member: 15212
Joined: Jun 6 2007

I remember a guy at one of the public consultation meetings.

He got up and made all the arguments one would make to support STV instead of MMP as a new system... and then concluded with the statement, "And that's why I recommend we choose MMP.

It was an eye-opener. And not atypical of what I heard.

First hand involvement in the OCA was very educational.


Login or register to post comments