"Bold" economic policies for the ONDP
Unionist wrote in another thread:
At the same time, it should include a few democratic reforms, like abolishing separate schools, without any big fuss.
Any other party that dares to challenge the NDP on this and make a big deal out of it will be rejected by the voters, who only care about the economy, their jobs, and their livelihood!!
The timing is perfect. It's now or never.
So what are these "bold" economic policies the ONDP should implement, that are supposedly being lost to an "unimportant" and "divisive" debate on separate school funding? How can the NDP outdo the bold, progressive, dynamic "Get Orange" campaign of 2007, which was hijacked by John Tory and Dalton McGuinty blabbering on about school funding?
Comments
Doug, pay no attention to genstrike. For him, there is no federal government to screw up everything since Mulroney. Everything Brian Baloney through the Shawinigan strangler and Pauly Pockets did to the provinces since the 1980s is inconsequential for our rabid anti-NDP'ers. When in doubt, simply blame any and all provincial NDP governments for being the most fiscally responsible party of all
Fidel, pull your head out of your ass before you try to read what I write.
Seriously.
genstrike demands universal PSE for Manitoba and the ONDP's platform only - and unionist prescribes Quebec's half-baked $7 dollar daycare for Ontario and flouting NAFTA with public auto regardless - but both of you are in favour of firing some number of separate school workers during a recession and refuse to support an equitable funding formula for public schools in a province neither of you reside in. As foghorn leghorn would say, you two are more confused than polecats in a hen house.
Read what I wrote. I never said that the ONDP should put universal PSE for Manitoba in their platform. I said that universal PSE could be one of those "bold economic policies for the ONDP". And I was trying to point out how little it would actually cost compared to how much people think it costs and how much money people could find in the budget. I only used Manitoba as an example of how little it would actually cost compared to how much people think it costs, because I am familiar with the Manitoba numbers and not familiar with the Ontario numbers. But I'm sure that simply by reversing some Harris tax cuts you could easily find the money. Of course, that would imply that the provincial government has some responsibility over something, which Fidel vehemently disagrees with because he is afraid of having to defend the failures of NDP provincial governments.
Regarding public auto insurance, I guess if the ONDP doesn't promise it this time around they won't be breaking promises when they don't deliver. Ah, the wonders of lowered expectations.
And I never said I wanted to fire people. That is just some stupid shit you're making up.
I wish you would educate yourself on the issues you apparently feel so strongly about. Tuition fees actually represent a small portion of the total cost of funding PSE. And you're talking billions of dollars pulled from PSE by the feds since 1995.. Universities and colleges have to charge tuition fees as a result of the reduced federal funding since 1995. They have no choice, and no province, with the exception of Alberta perhaps, could possibly afford to fully fund PSE.
I wish you would educate yourself on the issues you apparently feel so strongly about. Tuition fees actually represent a small portion of the total cost of funding PSE.
I know that. But I know that if students pay $X, than it will only cost the government $X more to eliminate tuition completely. It's basic math.
They've had tuition fees before 1995, and provinces can easily afford to fully fund PSE. They just don't want to. For example, it would only take around 2% of the Manitoba budget to replace tuition fees. How about you educate yourself on the issue, because I obviously know a hell of a lot more about this one than you do.
And if you think that provincial governments had nothing to do with this whole neoliberal bullshit floating around for the past decade, than you obviously don't remember Mike Harris or his Manitoba counterpart, Gary Filmon.
I wish you would educate yourself on the issues you apparently feel so strongly about. Tuition fees actually represent a small portion of the total cost of funding PSE.
I know that. But I know that if students pay $X, than it will only cost the government $X more to eliminate tuition completely. It's basic math.
I was never good at math. Can you explain in a little more detail, please?
What's your source on the 2%, and wouldnt it have to come from somewhere? It's not that I dont trust your facts, it's just that I dont trust your impeccable source.
I wish you would educate yourself on the issues you apparently feel so strongly about. Tuition fees actually represent a small portion of the total cost of funding PSE.
I know that. But I know that if students pay $X, than it will only cost the government $X more to eliminate tuition completely. It's basic math.
I was never good at math. Can you explain in a little more detail, please?
If you add up all the money that students pay in tuition, that is how much it will cost the government to eliminate tuition. It's as simple as that.
What's your source on the 2%, and wouldnt it have to come from somewhere? It's not that I dont trust your facts, it's just that I dont trust your impeccable source.
I multiplied the number of students in Manitoba by the average tuition, and came up with less than $200 million (I think it was closer to $150 million). I rounded up just to be on the safe side.
I looked at the Manitoba budget, and it was $12.2 billion last year. $200 million is 2% of $10 billion, so it would be a number less than 2% in order to eliminate tuition completely.
These are just rough, back of the envelope calculations, but I'm rounding up a lot whenever possible, so if anything, I'm on the high side. In fact, it would probably be closer to 1.5% or 1%, considering how much I rounded up.
As for where it can come from, in Manitoba we can just reverse some of the Doer tax cuts. If that 2% ratio also holds for Ontario, you could reverse a small fraction of Mike Harris' tax cuts and you would have more than enough.
Bookish Agrarian understands that we are in one huge financial pickle. He's trying to inject economic reality here.
Sorry about that... I was just challenging the notion that universal PSE is too expensive for a "bold" economic program. I'm mostly familiar with the Manitoba numbers, but I can only assume that they would be proportional for Ontario.
genstrike demands universal PSE for Manitoba and the ONDP's platform only - and unionist prescribes Quebec's half-baked $7 dollar daycare for Ontario and flouting NAFTA with public auto regardless - but both of you are in favour of firing some number of separate school workers during a recession and refuse to support an equitable funding formula for public schools in a province neither of you reside in.
Running around in a panic shouting "the sky is falling". I want the public school teachers fired and replaced by Catholics (with valid baptismal certificates), and the fired teachers will staff the new Ontario anti-Nafta Public Auto Insurance Offices. All schools will be closed by way of celebration, making funding formulae, equitable or no, redundant. You give me no credit for creativity.
If you add up all the money that students pay in tuition, that is how much it will cost the government to eliminate tuition. It's as simple as that.
But your over-simplified scenario implies that all of the other costs of PSE not covered by tuition fees are being fully funded by both levels of government, and that just isnt true. And you're talking liberal amounts here, billions of dollars pared back by Ottawa since, and it was 1993 actually.
So the total amount of money provinces would have to rob from their provincial budgets to cover PSE tuition fees, as you suggest might be done, still wouldnt cover the total cost of PSE shortfalls experienced by colleges and universities across Canada. Campuses and school buildings across Canada are falling apart and are underequipped today due to a lack of adequate total funding. Canada's universities actually have deferred funding costs to the tune of several billion dollars.
And there's only one other source universities can turn to for revenues, and that's to raise tuition fees liberally.
Education and Canada's Future: Canadian Alliance of Student Associations (2007)
The CASA report makes liberal mention of federal cutbacks to PSE to the tune of several billion dollars since 1993 and that provinces are unable to make up that shortfall still. What's needed is dedicated federal funding for PSE. So while youre doing hand-stands and backflips to deflect blame from our old line parties in Ottawa for deliberally thieving several billion dollars from total PSE funding since 1993 and never replacing it, student associations across the country have identified the culprits. And not so strangely, Gary Doer's name is never mentioned.
So is it time to rename this thread "Gary Doer is great...the NDP is totally powerless to do anything radical or even progressive.
I'm not saying these are not good ideas. I even like a few of genstrike's suggestions sans cat in the hat proposal for universal PSE. I even like Quebec's $7 dollar a day daycare. It's a start and forcing the issue I suppose.
And I think higher education should be freely accessible by every Canadian with academic merit. And that's another issue to be considered with freely accessible PSE as well. In some countries with no tuition fees, academic merit for entrance to universities tends to be a little higher. But if countries like Turkey and Poland can provide universallly accessible PSE, then surely we can.
Ontario's economy needs major injections of cash for modern and green infrastructure and investing in people. That much we have admitted in this thread. And manufacturing has been in recession in Ontario for a few years running and now affecting the loss of associated jobs in surrounding industries. Where should the money come from in a recession? I think what's needed is some level of cooperation from the feds if terribly bold economic reform in Ontario is to happen
I am so pleased to see an ONDP thread on the Economy. There is some good debate and good ideas. The moratorium on plant closures... now there is something bold. Just go a step further, beyond the idea. How, why, How again, and could it work???? How do you determine the good from the bad. I do know of HUNDREDS , HUNDREDS of manufacturers that announced the closures of Cdn operations, shortly after purchase.
How do you sort out these from the bankruptcies, and the "orchestrated" bankruptcies??
Good questions, madmax - the first thing is to embrace the concept, give government the authority, then establish criteria. Have a vast movement of expert input and public consultations. Involve the victims in the solutions. Let the ONDP do that, and a few other bold things as well.
Or, try the Gary Doer formula.
And there are lots of conservative-minded voters in Manitoba who appreciate their low cost of living and the fact that NDP governments are the most fiscally responsible of all. Just sayin'
That's simple. It amounts to giving a big subsidy to students from higher-income families who disproportionately attend PSE. Lower tuition will only make a marginal difference to this because the other costs associated with PSE are larger when you combine books, transportation, food and housing. The opportunity cost involved in not working or at least not working as much is also important. Also, the most important barriers to post-secondary education are put in place earlier in life. Poor children don't do as well in elementary school and this effect persists through high school. Poorer children also aren't as encouraged/forced to aim for PSE by their parents.
So, if we have some extra money to put into education, we can blow it on lowering tuition and help a lot of people who probably don't need the help. Alternatively, we can be more cost-effective in opening up opportunities for PSE for students of working-class families and also for adults desiring to or being forced to make a career change.
Ask the guys at Zanon tile how well expropriation is working for them. There are plenty of examples where workers have been able to take over their factories and go right on producing. And if a little retooling is necessary, then we can look at the above credit unions.
I'm not saying it can't happen, just that the opportunities for it are likely limited to a small portion of the factories in trouble.
Right, whatever we do, don't piss off any capitalists?
Not needlessly while we're all still dependent on them for investment. This isn't the sort of relationship in our economy that we can change overnight.
It doesn't work out that way. Since a lot of the costs of hiring on extra workers don't vary per worker regardless of how much or little they work, it pays employers to try to find ways of doing without instead of hiring on extra workers if the legal limit on hours is cut back. The employment-hours gained by new employees never equal the employment-hours lost from existing employees. So this makes reduced hours a great way of capturing more of the benefits of productivity for workers as leisure rather than pay, but it's not such a great way of redistributing employment.
I thoroughly agree. But on the whole this doesn't create a whole lot of employment and neither the private or public sectors in the province are ready to adjust that quickly. There's also a question of individual preference. Some people just want to work more and I don't see any reason not to accommodate them to some extent.
That's simple. It amounts to giving a big subsidy to students from higher-income families who disproportionately attend PSE. Lower tuition will only make a marginal difference to this because the other costs associated with PSE are larger when you combine books, transportation, food and housing. The opportunity cost involved in not working or at least not working as much is also important. Also, the most important barriers to post-secondary education are put in place earlier in life. Poor children don't do as well in elementary school and this effect persists through high school. Poorer children also aren't as encouraged/forced to aim for PSE by their parents.
Not that I want to take over this thread with tuition issues, but...
Sorry, this is the kind of argument that neoliberal hacks like Bob Rae and Alex Usher disingenuously push in order to sucker progressives into supporting regressive policies like high tuition.
Hugh MacKenzie from the CCPA (damn it, the link isn't working) pretty much demolished this argument by showing that subsidizing tuition is a net transfer from the rich to the poor. Tuition fees themselves are regressive, the less money you make the higher the percent you have to spend on tuition. Subsidized tuition is progressive because it is supported by progressive taxation, and even after years of neoliberalism and increasing tuition fees, it is still a net transfer from the rich to the poor. Yes, people from upper-class backgrounds are a little overrepresented (although university is far from a haven of the rich, although some people want to make it that way), but they also pay more into the system due to their tax rates. The upper class pays a higher proportion than the proportion of students from the upper class who attend, and the lower class pays less than the proportion of lower class students who attend, so it's definitely progressive. Unfortunately, this system is under attack by the very same people who claim to want to help low-income students by raising their tuition then giving them a bursary.
Also, in various surveys, a majority of people have cited cost as the main reason they didn't go to university. And there are a lot of people with financial problems who have difficulty getting bursaries, or who don't know how to navigate the bursary system, and thus stay away from university.
I agree that eliminating tuition isn't the only thing that has to be done (you do lose a lot of earning potential for a few years, so some people would need programs like living allowances and such, and I know how expensive textbooks are), but ask any student who is having trouble making their January tuition payment, and they will agree that eliminating tuition would help them a lot.
So, if we have some extra money to put into education, we can blow it on lowering tuition and help a lot of people who probably don't need the help. Alternatively, we can be more cost-effective in opening up opportunities for PSE for students of working-class families and also for adults desiring to or being forced to make a career change.
So, if this argument is taken to its logical conclusion, you would oppose any sort of universal social programs because some people who use them don't need the help. Would you support bringing in tuition fees for elementary and high school, but give out bursaries to poor families? How about two-tier healthcare, as the rich don't need the help paying for it? Maybe we can bring back means tests too.
Sadly, tuition these days is higher than it has been since at least the 40s, and shows no signs of going down in the near future. Wanting to keep it that high is not a progressive position. Would you at least support cutting tuition to the levels it was at 20, 30, or 40 years ago, when my premier took out a student loan and had such difficulty paying it off that they had to garnish his salary when he was a cabinet minister?
"And there are lots of conservative-minded voters in Manitoba who appreciate their low cost of living and the fact that NDP governments are the most fiscally responsible of all. Just sayin'."
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Bears repeating, Fidel. And the great unread were polled to make sure that that was their first concern.
B ut the NDP in Saskatchewan have historically been re-elected to bring about re-balancing of the books. Go figure their fate. Ah for the return of C.B. Macpherson to explain the fate of his Agrarian Socialism.Great theory but temporally challenged.
This is funny...a thread about really bold policies that NDP should be doing turns into a thread about Gary Doer.
It's even funnier that our two old line parties never really identified their policies as "neoliberal" over the last 30 years. And now we have political conservatives like Baird mentioning Keynes in every second sentence.
Here's a bold policy: NDP provincial governments should team up and introduce their very own trade & investment management agreement (TILMA) only these inter-provincial agreements will focus on labour rights and job generation. Such agreements will make the provincial labour force more competitive and secure rather than trade and investment. The underlying philosophy will be that if you invest in the skills, abilities, and security of a work force, the stability and enhanced quality of the workforce will provide the secure base needed for new business to flourish and jobs to be created. As such, NDP interprovincial agreements will further entrench labour rights because they will be locked into interprovincial agreements. The agreements will also secure made in Canada (or involved provinces) legislation as such policy lends stability and predictability in the local economies. Contrary to TILMA, these agreements will promote protection and investment in environmental and healthcare legislation because workers are more desirable and productive when they are healthy and live in healthy, sustainable environments. These agreements will entrench greater investment in our education systems and will hopefully lead to free post-secondary education and a universal childcare system. I think it would be very bold of provincial NDP parties to offer an interprovincial plan to boost job creation and to enhance and entrench labour rights.
Also, in various surveys, a majority of people have cited cost as the main reason they didn't go to university. And there are a lot of people with financial problems who have difficulty getting bursaries, or who don't know how to navigate the bursary system, and thus stay away from university.
And again, even after the massive hikes over the last 15 years, tuition is among the least of these costs. We should attack the biggest parts of the problem first.
Sure it would help. But if you lower tuition you're helping the students who drive to school in a BMW too and this is perhaps not the most efficient use of resources.
Universal programs are always the ideal, but they can't just be willed into existence without the means to pay for them. When resources are limited, you go with what's most cost-effective.
Sadly, tuition these days is higher than it has been since at least the 40s, and shows no signs of going down in the near future. Wanting to keep it that high is not a progressive position. Would you at least support cutting tuition to the levels it was at 20, 30, or 40 years ago, when my premier took out a student loan and had such difficulty paying it off that they had to garnish his salary when he was a cabinet minister?
Ontario doesn't have the money to eliminate (or hugely reduce) tuition without raising taxes by a good chunk. Certainly not while addressing the other barriers to PSE as well. Public opinion might not be as tax-phobic as it used to be, but I think it's still worth being cautious on the subject. We also have a lot of other things to pay for beside PSE. Renewing infrastructure, expanding public transit, reforming social assistance to reduce poverty and as always, health care are all on the next Ontario government's plate. I don't think myself that it's politically possible to do in one step.
So, if I'm the Minister of Colleges and Universities, here's the sort of things I'd want to try and get money for. A tuition freeze (or at least holding tuition to inflation) at Ontario universities while reducing tuition at community colleges. Re-regulation of tuition for professional and graduate programs. Increased means-tested grants for living expenses, books and child care. An expanded Second Career program. That's both realistic and progressive.
And what's wrong with raising taxes (on corporations and the wealthy)? Don't social democrats believe in a more progressive tax system?
You won't be getting any progressive and encompassing job creation programs without increasing taxes.
Or are you of the belief that we should try to lure investment with "competitive" taxes, etc.?
Take money from individuals to pay for social needs!?
LP, are you trying to blaze some new treacherous trail for the ONDP?
Surely they need to get elected on a Liberal platform first; then govern for a few terms like Tories; and then, maybe, bring out the real agenda.
That's what Ed Broadbent meant, I think, when he spoke of a "very comprehensive view of social democracy".
ETA: On a serious note, I liked Lost in Bruce County's approach.
It's time for the NDP to be bold: we can no longer afford Jack Layton and Paul Summerville's "no new taxes" pledge (at least he didn't say "read my lips") of 2006.
Summerville was onside for one year of dalliance. But wouldn't it be something just to be able to hold the line on tax cuts? The emergency stimulation budgeting and Keynesian theory certainly does not support tax cuts at this time. However, the great unread are not into Keynes much. How do you get them onside, LP?
However, the great unread are not into Keynes much. How do you get them onside, LP?
An honest, ethical daily newspaper. /pipe dreaming
I think it's not a good idea to piegon-hole one country's social democrat model for taxation as a cookie cutter model for all. Sweden began taxing corporations at low rates and then Ireland and so on. But those tend to be small countries trying to compete with larger ones. Low corporate versus high consumption taxation has worked for Nordic countries. But that's not necessarily a good model for Canada to follow, unless if wanting to copy Norway's sovereign wealth fund for oil exports.
The Liberals, as Liberals will do, have tried to copy the Nordic race to the bottom with reducing statutory corporate tax rates from 28% in 2000 to 21% in 2006. And during that time Canada experienced a net decrease in FDI. The NDP isnt sold on corporate tax races to the bottom except where small provincial economies are concerned and competing within Canada.
If the feds increased overall taxation across Canada to just the OECD average as a percentage of GDP (as it was pre-global meltdown of financial capitalism), then add ~ $35 billion more to federal revenues.
And if Ottawa was to raise overall taxation to the EU-15 average(again, p-md), then ~ $75 billion more federal revenues could be realized.
The NDP realizes Canada has leeway on overall taxation as well as in regard to taxing natural resource exports in a time of dangerous climate change. I think governments would be justified in raising taxes on oil and natural gas exports. And most importantly, Ottawa needs to renegotiate the dumbest free trade deal in world history, NAFTA, as Jack Layton has stated several times. The Liberals really got taken to the cleaners with that one, and so did all Canadians.
Fidel, I agree with you here and your proposal was rationally stated. I am glad you moved beyond glib commentary. Bravo!
______________________________________________________________________________________ Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!
"It's time for the NDP to be bold: we can no longer afford Jack Layton and Paul Summerville's "no new taxes" pledge (at least he didn't say "read my lips") of 2006. "
It made sense to pledge not to raise taxes in 2006 because at that time there was a gigantic surplus at the federal level and plenty of money to spend on new programs. There is a a time and a place for everything and promising to raise taxes when the federal government has a ten billion dollar surplus doesn't make sense. Now we are in a totally different situation.
Sure it would help. But if you lower tuition you're helping the students who drive to school in a BMW too and this is perhaps not the most efficient use of resources.
And if you give out free healthcare, you're helping people who drive to the hospital in a BMW. And if you give out free K-12, you're helping people who drive their kids to school in a BMW. How is this any less efficient than giving out free PSE?
If we can all agree that education is really really important, I don't see why it shouldn't be made into a universal program, along with other really really important things like healthcare and K-12.
I have proposed a means to pay for it. Reverse a small fraction of Mike Harris' tax cuts. Raise taxes on the rich. It's really not as expensive as a lot of people think it is. Tons of other countries can pull it off, even countries with fractions of our GDP per capita. Cuba can do it, and they have what, 1/8, 1/10 of our per capita GDP?
And if the level of government responsible can't will a social program into existence, who can? Tommy Douglas didn't wait for the magical healthcare faries to come and deliver universal healthcare (or maybe he did, that's why it took him 15 years to get around to it)
Oh, and we can't possibly raise taxes, Mike Harris would be pissed!
Here's another bold policy: reverse everything Mike Harris has ever done within one year of getting elected. Instead of having to deal with his policies which continue to impact the province, make him nothing more than a bad memory. Then the province might actually have the resources to do what they used to do.
Okay, so you support essentially keeping tuition fees at the whatever level that Mike Harris and Dalton McGuinty left them at. Ergo, you essentially support Harris and McGuinty's policies on tuition. That isn't bold and progressive, that's a certain Manitoba premier who shall remain nameless.
This is what I hate about pretty much every parliamentary leftist in the country. All our demands are too much and too risky for them, but they still think they are entitled to our support. So it's no surprise that whenever someone comes along with a reasonable, socialist demand that is a reality in many other countries (If Cuba can do it, there's no reason why a country with 8-10 times the per capita GDP can't), the "left" is just as quick to shoot it down as the right. Meanwhile, while the "left" is afraid to move the province more than a quarter of an inch to the left, whenever the right gets in they shove it a foot to the right.
Here's a bold policy: Don't be Gary Doer or Bob Rae.
Paul Martin, arguably the most rightwing Finance Minister in Canadian history, made the tax system much more regressive and massively gutted social programs. The NDP, including Layton, has rightly blasted the Liberals (and the Tories) for that. So if the tax system was so unfair, why wouldn't the NDP support an increase in taxes on corporations and the wealthy?
Paul Martin, arguably the most rightwing Finance Minister in Canadian history, made the tax system much more regressive and massively gutted social programs. The NDP, including Layton, has rightly blasted the Liberals (and the Tories) for that. So if the tax system was so unfair, why wouldn't the NDP support an increase in taxes on corporations and the wealthy?
Because the NDP loves to cry about what the right does at the time, but doesn't actually oppose what they do to the point of wanting to reverse them when they get the chance.
It has to be either a lack of principle or a lack of courage.
I know student loan debtors dont need constant reminding of it, but dont forget the federal Liberals who gutted and ransacked and pillaged and raided several billion dollars from PSE funding in the 1990s.
I agree with GenStrike that PSE should be free. Most middle class students can't afford PSE and either take on huge loans or fall through the cracks because they are not poor enough to qualify for bursaries and grants targeted at low income families and they are not wealthy enough to get a loan. While it is true that the cost of living exceeds the cost of tuition, every bit helps. Besides, whose to say a universal PSE program wouldn't also include some funding for living expenses. Additionally, PSE institutions could invest in all programs equally if they relied completely on government funding and were no longer driven out of necessity to get private funding for research and development.
Fidel, I agree with you here and your proposal was rationally stated. I am glad you moved beyond glib commentary. Bravo!
If the NDP decided to campaign for an all secular public school system tomorrow, I would still vote NDP no question about it. I'm just worried that it would lose what support we've gained in Northern Ontario since Rae's government. I know of one couple who were long-time NDP supporters who were put off the NDP over the SSM issue. I tried to reason with them, but he's an old line Catholic. Good people but very rigid in their beliefs.
Well Fidel, one should not think of the north as a monolithic catholic area. I can tell you that if you talk to any Public school trustee from the north, they are very strong "one school system supporters." This goes for both English and French speaking public school trustees. In fact, French speaking public school trustees are even more "vocal" than their English counterparts.
I understand your concerns and appreciate your honesty here.
______________________________________________________________________________________ Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!
LP:
"Paul Martin, arguably the most rightwing Finance Minister in Canadian history, made the tax system much more regressive and massively gutted social programs. The NDP, including Layton, has rightly blasted the Liberals (and the Tories) for that. So if the tax system was so unfair, why wouldn't the NDP support an increase in taxes on corporations and the wealthy?"
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Unfortunately, New Democrat leaders do not explain to followers that with "Supercapitalism: The Transformation of Business, Democracy, and Everyday Life" (Robert B.Reich) came the ability of the corporation to move to wherever grass was greenest. It was the single most powerful finding of the Chicago School allowing the neo-conservatives to achieve power.
Since Ronnie Raygun, lower taxes has been the winning mantra for conservatives...and of course, Paul Martin had to keep ahead of the crowd rising up in the West.All small c ers were acting from the same economic reasoning, not out of hatred for other classes.
Unfortunately, if taxes are raised anywhere, these days, the corporation or the individual voter hunts elsewhere. Sometimes hand in hand, because the individual whose savings are dependent on the health of that corporation, can suffer. Look at the fallout in the economic collapse we're experiencing. Twenty or 30 per cent declines across the board.
The corporate and financial world has us by the short one, LP. That's where we have to break free. Natiionalization. Starting with the banks. And at this very moment when we should be putting that forward, in revolutionary financial terms, we talk about raising taxes????
And the virtues of a single school system?
Well, people read fantasy to escape the real world too.
If the NDP decided to campaign for an all secular public school system tomorrow, I would still vote NDP no question about it. I'm just worried that it would lose what support we've gained in Northern Ontario since Rae's government. I know of one couple who were long-time NDP supporters who were put off the NDP over the SSM issue. I tried to reason with them, but he's an old line Catholic. Good people but very rigid in their beliefs.
Many of our supporters, indeed many of our "old line" Catholic supporters were against equal rights for same sex couples. Sometimes a sacrifice in our principles and sacrificing the quality of life of the most vulnerable groups in our support base (ie children & youth) is not worth the votes we get in return. I've met many same-sex couples who refuse to vote for the NDP - they blame us and Mr. Rae for the 1994 defeat of bill 167 - a bill that would have given spousal rights to same-sex couples. So I guess you win some and you lose some, what's important is that you never lose sight of yourself and your principles.
I should have said 100% free for everybody. Ideally, it might be good but that is too large a shift at once. I'd like to begin with it being free for the neediest students who might otherwise choose not to attend and those that do choose to attend but are faced with horrible debt obligations after versus those that don't.
So, "bold"ly speaking, how long do you think it would take to phase in?
Free tuition for everyone!
A few years ago I reviewed the research and free tuition is the way to go: Students who entered on free tuition, who would not have been able to go otherwise, were doing quite well. The research is clear that's the way to go. However, economic constraints have been allowed to dictate otherwise.
I know of one couple who were long-time NDP supporters who were put off the NDP over the SSM issue. I tried to reason with them, but he's an old line Catholic.
When you say "I tried to reason with them" - what do you mean? That they should continue supporting the NDP? Or that they should accept SSM?
Here's a bold policy: NDP provincial governments should team up and introduce their very own trade & investment management agreement (TILMA) only these inter-provincial agreements will focus on labour rights and job generation. Such agreements will make the provincial labour force more competitive and secure rather than trade and investment. The underlying philosophy will be that if you invest in the skills, abilities, and security of a work force, the stability and enhanced quality of the workforce will provide the secure base needed for new business to flourish and jobs to be created. As such, NDP interprovincial agreements will further entrench labour rights because they will be locked into interprovincial agreements. The agreements will also secure made in Canada (or involved provinces) legislation as such policy lends stability and predictability in the local economies. Contrary to TILMA, these agreements will promote protection and investment in environmental and healthcare legislation because workers are more desirable and productive when they are healthy and live in healthy, sustainable environments. These agreements will entrench greater investment in our education systems and will hopefully lead to free post-secondary education and a universal childcare system. I think it would be very bold of provincial NDP parties to offer an interprovincial plan to boost job creation and to enhance and entrench labour rights.
That sounds like a great idea to me.
And what's wrong with raising taxes (on corporations and the wealthy)? Don't social democrats believe in a more progressive tax system?
It's hard to sell to the public when you're trying to win an election.
I'd like to see free PSE too, and clearly we'd need to raise taxes to do so. So how do we sell this idea to a public who is resistant to raising taxes?
Babblers ask "what's wrong with raising taxes?" or "what's the case for continued funding of a Catholic system?" I feel like it would be a lot more useful and productive to outline "here's how we can successfully pitch raising taxes (for free PSE) in an election" or, "here's how to pitch one public school system without having our unfree press make the whole election about school funding to the detriment of all the other issues". Asking "what's wrong with doing this?" or "why not do this?" is not the same as making the case for doing it.
If you can't understand that raising taxes is going to be a hard sell (and plan accordingly in order to make the sale) then you're not going to get very far in pitching free PSE.
Cuba's not a puppet state of the empire. So they can do stuff in ways that we can't. Our media is controlled by people who want low taxes (on corporations and on the wealthy) and they're the ones who tell us who we should vote for (red or blue).
So, "bold"ly speaking, how long do you think it would take to phase in?
As long as it will take for Canadians to learn that taxes aren't the boogeyman.
eta: I see you're of the same mind but that tax increase is the hard sell not free PSE.
With Andrea Horwath as the new leader, and with Ontarians "needing us now more than ever" (Howard Hampton), what kind of bold dynamic progressive economic policies should we be expecting?
And what's wrong with raising taxes (on corporations and the wealthy)? Don't social democrats believe in a more progressive tax system?
You won't be getting any progressive and encompassing job creation programs without increasing taxes.
Or are you of the belief that we should try to lure investment with "competitive" taxes, etc.?
And what about the "race to the bottom" competition between provinces for lower corporate taxes? Obviously if one province has higher corporate taxes than the one next to it, guess where businesses move to? Smaller provincial economies cant set the tax pace, and larger provinces like Ontario have been hemorrhaging jobs since turn of the decade. And with the national economy tanking the way it is, I dont think any province is about to put themselves at a disadvantage.
What we need are higher overall federal tax revenues, including across the board corporate taxation - and raised to at least the OECD average as a percentage of GDP. Interprovincial competition for maintaining and keeping jobs is avoided in this way. Raising overall federal tax revenues in concert should mean $35 billion more every year for program spending. We need strong central government - something that's been really lacking over the last three decades.
Here's a bold policy: Don't be Gary Doer or Bob Rae.
I couldn't have expressed your exposure of Fidel's "social-democratic" leanings more succinctly. BTW, you forgot cost of living adjustments for all non-executive jobs. 
Why these private organizations and not the state?
Richter and genstrike are basically saying the race to the bottom doesnt exist, and they couldnt be more wrong. One can only assume that as far as those two are concerned, twelve years of federal Liberal rule were wonderful years filled with very neoliberal trade deals with associated restrictions on provincial authority to expand public sector economy and social transfers to provinces gutted to the tune of tens of billions of dollars.
You don't seem to get the fact that the NDP is one of the left fronts of the bourgeois-capitalist state order. There are two kinds of progressive reforms: ones that buy out the working class, and ones that strengthen their opposition to the system. "Social-democrats" are always for the former, with unintended help from wavering class-strugglists; consistent class-strugglists are always for the latter.
So what are you trying to say, really? You dont seem to understand how NAFTA works, or that Canada's, as in federal government, spending on social programs is ranked 25th out of 30 capitalist countries. All of those capitalist countries spending more than us on social programs have strong central governments with social democrats either in strong opposition or in federal power for long stretches at a time. They arent niggling with federal Liberal governments over enough funding for daycare or PSE or a bloody national drug plan.
I'm curious to know at what point do either of genstrike or Richter dare lay blame on Canada's rightwing federal Liberals effin things up in their colonial adminstrative role in Ottawa over twelve years? What does it take to weaken their resolve not to criticize federal Liberals, those Libranos and LIEberals for having governed so far to the right, and having inserted themselves so far in corporate America's pockets for twelve years that they had ta have air pumped to 'em!
I know this is late, but just a quick comment on TIMLA, and I hate to bring it up but frequently interprovincial agreements are lobbied against by building trade unions. In the construction world Quebec has higher health and safety and training standards so when Ontario contractors weren't allowed to bid on Quebec projects unless their workers were trained to the same level, the builidng trades did not clamour for more training, they just complained about unfair trade and essentially supported a run to the bottom.
Here's a start: FREE post-secondary education. Not a tuition freeze or 10% reduction, but no tuition. This was suggested by Cheri DiNovo at one of the Ginger Project meetings.
We need federal power or not much changes provincially. Provincial governments are still forced to fund program spending by inequitable equalization formula and reduced federal transfers since 1995. Provincial governments have no real power over the national economy and are reduced to tweaking taxes and allocating and re-allocating scarce funding, and fear of NAFTA reprisals when contemplating pubic sector expansions. And some provincial premiers from BC, Alberta, Ontario and Quebec have even been working to arrange NAFTA-lite deals like TILMA behind closed doors on behalf of the Can-Am corporatocracy in recent months.
me too
How about a massive public employment program for Ontario somewhat akin to the New Deal's WPA which would build needed industries, affordable housing, mass transit systems, etc. Such a program could be subsidized by substantial increase in taxes on the wealthy (times are too bold for the Jack Layton and Paul Summerville's "no new taxes" pledge of 2006).
[Snarky remarks removed]
Building mass transit would be a good idea for sure.
Here's one way to spead investmest in areas outside of the urban cores.
Invest in on-farm environmental goods and services. Right now any work of an environmental nature that needs to be done is cost shared with farmers. Most farmers have no ability to recoup those costs from the marketplace and many are working off farm jobs just to pay the basic bills. That means a lot of potential projects are not occurring. Skip giving money to the banks. Go directly to the source and pay farmers for doing this work. This will mean many, many people from contractors to manufactures will receive work as this money will simply flow through farmers to those carrying out the work. Thousands upon thousands of employment hours could be created. Those workers will then be paying income tax which will help pay for the funding in the first place.
I've held back, because Ontario isn't my province, but since I'm in the OP, here goes:
1. Moratorium on plant closures over a certain size TBD. If you don't want to operate the plant, do something else, but leave the infrastructure in trust of the provincial government.
2. $7 per day publicly-delivered childcare, and build the necessary infrastructure. Not only creates lots of jobs, but frees parents to participate in the workforce.
3. Savings from abolition of Catholic school funding to be reinvested, dollar for dollar, in vocational "green jobs" skills delivery.
4. Public auto insurance (remember that?).
5. What LP said about FDR.
6. Buy Canadian, Buy Ontario, Buy Municipal policies for all public investment, based on feasibility.
Fidel, you're just making up excuses for the inevitable failure of any provincial NDP government to live up to the expectations of the people who elect it.
I also don't live in Ontario, but here is my proposal for any NDP government that is listening (Gary Doer, I'm looking in your direction):
Free post-secondary education
Some sort of public bank in to support the creation of worker co-ops by providing them with a source of capital for start-ups or retooling
Expropiration law allowing workers to take control over failing plants and operate them as a co-op
Reduce working hours to 32 hours a week with no reduction in pay (three day weekend!)
Public infrastructure projects - not just building highways, but also small-scale stuff aimed at fixing up communities. Especially impoverished FN communities. And it goes without saying that none of this will be a P3
and that's just what I can think of in five minutes
A 32 hour workweek with no loss in pay or benefits. This would increase employment as it would distribute work to more people.
Sam Gindin has suggested that trade unionists should call for a ban on overtime on the grounds that no trade unionist can defend wirking overtime when fellow workers can't find jobs.
Instead of forcing 'green' energy projects on communities that don't want them invest on individual scale generation.
Mega projects create mega problems, and frankly are often eyesores if nothing else. However, the real solution to energy issues in individual generation. Those generating with solar or wind can do it on a smaller, more community acceptable way. Allowing power inversion so that indiviudal producers can feed their surplus energy back into the grid would promote conservation (watching the dial run backwards is a pretty big incentive), create jobs, technology growth and return the government investment back into the economy in a much better and more direct way than corporate shareholder dividends. (Most current 'green' energy production is being done by the private sector and public power is being relegated to the older technologies).
Not only would this be a good idea it would serve as a wedge issue against the Liberals.
So who has the boldest economic platform of the leadership candidates?
I also don't live in Ontario, but here is my proposal for any NDP government that is listening (Gary Doer, I'm looking in your direction):
Free post-secondary education
Very expensive and not necessarily that progressive. I prefer indexing tuition to inflation and providing more student grants toward tuition and living expenses. Money has to go into creating places as well, especially for people needing to make career changes. Expanding Second Career would be a fine idea.
A good idea, especially with private finance frozen up as it is. This is probably better done working with the credit union movement than by creating a whole new organization, however.
Expropiration law allowing workers to take control over failing plants and operate them as a co-op
It sounds good at first but it's not likely to be very effective, for the reason that most plants exist because they're part of some large organization's supply chain. The provincial government can expropriate the plant but it cannot expropriate the intellectual property that the plant uses (designs, patents, etc). So, a plant that becomes orphaned in this way can't produce what it used to because it might not have access to the necessary supplies, cannot legally produce the products it used to and has no market to sell to. It also discourages anyone who might want to invest in new facilities in the province.
Essentially mandates a 20% pay rise instantaneously. Perhaps not the smartest thing to do in a recession. It also generates less employment than you might think because the fixed costs of adding an employee don't change (benefits, training, etc). The public sector would have a hard time adjusting to it too. If you think there's a shortage of nurses and doctors now, just wait until they only work 32 hours a week.
No, I think we need to more gently nudge ourselves in the right direction. Increase the statutory vacation to three weeks and look at reducing the number of hours it takes before overtime pay kicks in.
Public infrastructure projects - not just building highways, but also small-scale stuff aimed at fixing up communities. Especially impoverished FN communities. And it goes without saying that none of this will be a P3
Definitely needed, though a lot of this depends on finally accessing federal money that's been promised but so far not delivered. I think we also have to be strategic about it, building infrastructure that supports the transition to an environmentally sustainable economy.
I support the ONDP's five point plan to resuscitate Canada's largest provincial economy from a present near-death experience
I also don't live in Ontario, but here is my proposal for any NDP government that is listening (Gary Doer, I'm looking in your direction):
Free post-secondary education
Very expensive and not necessarily that progressive. I prefer indexing tuition to inflation and providing more student grants toward tuition and living expenses. Money has to go into creating places as well, especially for people needing to make career changes. Expanding Second Career would be a fine idea.
How is free education for all not progressive?
And I think it is a lot less expensive than people realize. There's about a million students in Canada paying about 5 thousand each. That's five billion dollars. I'm sure we can find $5 billion in a $240 billion budget. How about that $18 billion that goes to those people who kill people?
And provincial governments can do it as well. My government over the past ten years could have spent $200 million a year to completely eliminate tuition. Instead, they decided to give away $800 million in tax cuts which benefit primarily the rich. And it's an NDP government. I don't think you would like to argue that tax cuts for the rich are more progressive than free education for all, would you?
A good idea, especially with private finance frozen up as it is. This is probably better done working with the credit union movement than by creating a whole new organization, however.
All right, I might give you that one, provided these credit unions have policies in place to benefit start-up worker co-ops
Expropiration law allowing workers to take control over failing plants and operate them as a co-op
It sounds good at first but it's not likely to be very effective, for the reason that most plants exist because they're part of some large organization's supply chain. The provincial government can expropriate the plant but it cannot expropriate the intellectual property that the plant uses (designs, patents, etc). So, a plant that becomes orphaned in this way can't produce what it used to because it might not have access to the necessary supplies, cannot legally produce the products it used to and has no market to sell to.
Ask the guys at Zanon tile how well expropriation is working for them. There are plenty of examples where workers have been able to take over their factories and go right on producing. And if a little retooling is necessary, then we can look at the above credit unions.
Right, whatever we do, don't piss off any capitalists?
Essentially mandates a 20% pay rise instantaneously. Perhaps not the smartest thing to do in a recession. It also generates less employment than you might think because the fixed costs of adding an employee don't change (benefits, training, etc). The public sector would have a hard time adjusting to it too. If you think there's a shortage of nurses and doctors now, just wait until they only work 32 hours a week.
No, I think we need to more gently nudge ourselves in the right direction. Increase the statutory vacation to three weeks and look at reducing the number of hours it takes before overtime pay kicks in.
We're overproducing, destroying the environment, people are losing jobs, and you don't think it is a good idea to take a step back and have some people work less so others can work at all?
Also, there would be a lot of social and environmental benefits to reducing working hours. Less stress-related illnesses, parents able to spend more time with their families, people reducing the amount of time they spend burning gas commuting to work by 20%, more time for social development and takaing care of our own needs...
Unemployment is there for a reason. It's called the reserve army of labour. We can get rid of it. Or is that too "bold" of an economic policy for the NDP?
But here's my bold, one-point plan to end this economic crisis and prevent any further economic crisis: We all neet to tighten our belts... around the necks of capitalists!