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Catholic school funding 5

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Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005
Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

I love this story:

Jobless, non-religious teachers turn to Catholicism in attempt for employment

With the Vatican falling on hard times, this may be just the kind of good-news story they need!


lepidoptera
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Joined: Jan 25 2010

It's interesting how "goofy" this all is.

- Children must be Catholic (supported by a baptismal cert) to attend Catholic elementary schools ( unless they are lucky enough to apply to an under enrolled school where they will accepted regardless of their religion because of the holy enrolment grant that comes with them)

- Teachers at that school must be Catholic supported by a  baptismal cert and/or faith portfolio

-  in high school, all children must be accepted regardless of religion, but teachers in those Cath high school must be Catholic.

- to run as a Catholic trustee you must legally be Catholic, supported by nothing but a check mark in the right box

- therefore...your non catholic children could legally be attending a Cath high school but you can't run for a position on the board because you are not Catholic unless of course you lie about being catholic...but then you could be forgiven for lying...next Sunday.....what!

- we should all run for a position on the catholic school board, on a one school system platform, in the up coming municipal election and really mess with them....here's the how to manual  http://cripeweb.org:80/A_run_for_the_Catholic_Board_1.html

 


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005
janfromthebruce
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Joined: Apr 24 2007

good!


MCsquared
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Joined: Jul 17 2010

Ontario has been there done that got the T-shirt. Move on nothing to see here.


M. Spector
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Joined: Feb 19 2005

MCsquared wrote:

Ontario has been there done that got the T-shirt. Move on nothing to see here.

What the fuck is that supposed to mean?


MCsquared
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Joined: Jul 17 2010

It means that there has already been two Court cases on this matter, both have already gone to the Supreme Court of Canada and the constitutionality of Catholic school funding was upheld. And private religious school funding was denied on a constitutional basis. That is " what the fuck" it means.


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Unionist wrote:

Funding for Ontario Catholic schools under fire in court challenge

Reva Landau wrote:
Today, she argues, almost all education funding comes from general public funds - but should revert to the 1867 guarantees.

Her court challenge also says she is "forced to fund ... a particular religious education system which propagates policies of which she does not approve."

1867? Hey why not revert to the health care funding formula as per Constitution of 1867 while we're on a roll?

Why not reach back even further to, say, Greco-Roman funding rules for education and health care?

Better yet Hammurabi's code of ancient Babylon. Now we're cookin' with gas.


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

Fidel, the Church may need an expert witness.

 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Is this about money again per chance?


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005
Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

LOL - the author of that phony study is the same Professor David Johnson who did another "study" showing the harm done to children (especially, oh, the poor children) by teachers' strikes. In case the McGuinty Liberals, great champions of workers' rights, didn't go to a top-notch Catholic school and couldn't understand the good professor's subtle message, he spelled it out for them:

Quote:
School work stoppages lower the pass rate on EQAO assessments. The result is much larger in Grade 6 than in Grade 3, much larger on mathematics assessments than on reading and writing assessments and much larger in schools with students who tend to face more serious challenges achieving academic success. Impacts are likely to be similar across other provinces. Thus, this research shows very clearly that in elementary schools the most disadvantaged in society are those hurt most by work stoppages.

Measuring the impact of work stoppages, as done in this study, will provide sobering perspective to all parties in labour disputes in the education system as well as valuable information to government decisionmakers about when and whether to intervene in them.

Got any more two-bit phony scholars to prove the inestimable value of Catholic schools, Fidel?


OL12
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Joined: Nov 18 2008

Unionist wrote:
I love this story:

Jobless, non-religious teachers turn to Catholicism in attempt for employment

With the Vatican falling on hard times, this may be just the kind of good-news story they need!

Isn't it despicable that people have to resort to this in a modern democracy  -- especially one that likes to point out other countries failings.

Your rights are determined by the "colour" of your faith, with those of the preferred faith getting more even though they suffer no disadvantage that might warrant their special treatment.

I attended Church regularly when my kids were young (some people take personal responsibility for the spiritual education of their children rather than abdicating that responsibility to the state).  I actually considered conversion to Catholicism to get the kids into the local Catholic school in order to escape an extreme overcrowding situation at my local public school.  My non-Catholic/heathen kids were rejected, forcing us to pay for a private school for two years.  Our Catholic neighbours could escape that overcrowding situation for free by virtue of their superior rights and choices under Ontario law.

What other countries and jurisdictions favour one faith over all others in law?  Saudi Arabia? Israel? Indonesia? Pakistan? Afghanistan? ... and Ontario, Canada.

We should be proud, shouldn't we?


OL12
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Joined: Nov 18 2008

MCsquared wrote:
Ontario has been there done that got the T-shirt. Move on nothing to see here.

If you go back and look at the Supreme Court cases of the 1980s, you'll see they only ruled that Ontario had the authority to fund Catholic high schools, not that it was compelled to do so.  That's what the case was about.  They based their decision largely on the existence of a "constitutional compromise/deal" that saw denominational school rights granted to religious minorities in both Quebec and Ontario.  Quebec eliminated public funding for denominational schools over a decade ago, which means that the "deal" has now been ripped up by one of the parties.  Thus the legal basis for the Supreme Courts 1980s decisions no longer holds.  Conditions are ripe for another challenge.  The challenge for the justices of the Supreme Court will be to come up with another excuse for Ontario Catholics to have greater civil rights (in education) than anyone else.  They'll need to come up with a new excuse for non-fundamental and exclusively Catholic denominational school "rights" to trump everyone else's fundamental right to equality.


OL12
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Joined: Nov 18 2008

Fidel wrote:
Is this about money again per chance?

That is certainly a big part of it.  How can Ontario justify funding massive duplication and waste in the school system when it cannot properly fund our truly essential programs?

In Ontario, almost without exception, the smaller the school board and the more geographically dispersed its schools and students, the higher the per pupil funding. This pattern certainly holds in Ottawa:

School board funding for Ottawa school boards, 2012-13 Ministry figures (projected):

Source:  http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/funding/1213/funding12.pdf
 
School board           Total funding   Total enrolment   Cost per pupil
 
English public (EP)    $724,207,148    66,926            $10,821
 
English Catholic (EC)  $403,135,523    35,510            $11,352 (EP + $531)
 
French Catholic (FC)   $250,070,875    18,914            $13,221
 
French public (FP)     $162,860,654    10,887            $14,959 (FC + $1738)
 
Per pupil funding for the English Catholic, French Catholic, and French public school boards is respectively 4.9%, 22.2%, and 38.2% higher than for the English public board.  The smaller French public school board receives 13.1% more per pupil than its French Catholic counterpart.

This is not favouritism.  This is the Ministry of Education recognizing – right in the funding formula – that smaller school boards are unable to realize the same efficiencies and economies as their larger counterparts in the same area.  It is proof that our smaller school boards cost significantly more money to run.

Under one school system, the per pupil cost in each system would certainly be no higher than the lower cost on each of the English and the French sides.  Thus the savings from going to one school system in Ottawa on the English side alone total at least $531 x 35,510 English Catholic students = $18,855,810 per year.  On the French side, at least $1,738 x 10,887 French public students = $18,921,606 would be saved.

The total savings would actually be even higher, however, as the geographic densities of schools and students in the larger English and French boards are also not as high as they would be under one system.  The cost to deliver education of the same quality as now under one school system is certainly less than the current $10,821 on the English side (as even the English public board is not as efficient as it would be under one school system) and less than $13,221 on the French side.  The savings could be reinvested into improving education for all children.

Public-Catholic board mergers would also allow Ontario to neatly rationalize the hundreds of thousands of excess pupil places in Ontario schools – many of these in severely under enrolled schools that are less cost effective to operate than full schools.  While merging overlapping school boards, the successor boards could combine adjacent, under enrolled public and Catholic schools while cherry picking the best schools from each of the predecessor boards’ inventories.  The lower operating costs realized by shedding the oldest and most costly properties would provide a system wide savings that would last for decades.  It would also create more cost effective full schools in many communities where two more costly half empty schools existed previously.  The combination of under enrolled schools would also significantly reduce the prevalence of split grade classes as the splits in adjacent under enrolled schools were combined in one school.

Not all of the benefits of merging our school systems are financial.  By combining adjacent under enrolled schools, schools that now cannot achieve the critical mass for many programs and courses would do so, broadening academic opportunities for all students.  In its reports, People for Education consistently bemoans the disadvantages faced by smaller schools in terms of programming, but the fact is many of these disadvantages are a direct consequence of our school system’s crazy, unnecessarily fractured organization.

 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

First they came for our social programs. Then they attacked separate school funding. We wouldn't be talking about money and "Catholic school funding" had our corrupt stooges not handed off the remaining powers of money creation to private and foreign bankers by 1991.

We say "Catholic school funding" now, but the bastards really don't like public funding of any worthy cause. Feast your eyes on the teachers unions reports and on what GATS is all about over the long haul. The neolib bastards eventually want to end public funding of schools in general. 

Yes there is a dead rat under the floorboards long time in this country. The country has experienced a prolonged period of deindustrialization at a frenzied pace ever since.

And this just in from the absentee corporate landlords running Ontario into the ground report:

Oshawa loses 1000 manufacturing jobs to Michigan   (and 9 spinoff jobs for every manufacturing job to follow)

More job losses and potentially even more disgruntled voters.

Does anyone actually believe that stopping public funding of separate schools will somehow fix the whopping annual budget deficit in Ontario? Not a snowball's chance!


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

I have never supported the argument that we should eliminate public funding of religious schools to save money.

If getting rid of religious public schools cost more than leaving them be, it would still be worth it.

 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Unionist wrote:

I have never supported the argument that we should eliminate public funding of religious schools to save money.

Good, because you wouldn't have much of an argument with people like me who understand the deliberate attempts to strangle public funding in general for political reasons in this and other countries.

Unionist wrote:
If getting rid of religious public schools cost more than leaving them be, it would still be worth it.

I'm for leaving them be.  So whatever it is that's "worth it" must be good enough for you regardless of everything else that matters.

There are very many things that are broken in the province of Ontario besides a lack of school funding. So many issues and going concerns it's not even funny anymore.  Curious as to why youre so hot to trot on defunding something that actually does work. Is it down to something that a Church worker did to some kids 40 years ago? Is it because of that house/palace arrest of Galileo on the Church payroll way back when? What? Why should we defund a style of education that works and namely in the here and now, in your opinion?


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

No, it's because they teach hatred (of the rights of women, queers, "others", and just plain humans) and ignorance about how the world works. And, most importantly, because they preach and perpetuate the segregation of school-children on the basis of religion.


Geoff OB
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Joined: Aug 30 2009

Thanks for the informative post, OL12.  We need good information on exactly how and where we would save money by unifying the school system.  Whether we like it or not, in the current economic climate, economic arguments hold more sway than philosophical or moral arguments. 

The kind of information you've provided needs to be reiterated again and again in the literature distributed by 'one school system' advocates.  I believe it will carry more weight with a broader spectrum of the population.


janfromthebruce
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Joined: Apr 24 2007

The combination of under enrolled schools would also significantly reduce the prevalence of split grade classes as the splits in adjacent under enrolled schools were combined in one school.

Not all of the benefits of merging our school systems are financial.  By combining adjacent under enrolled schools, schools that now cannot achieve the critical mass for many programs and courses would do so, broadening academic opportunities for all students.  In its reports, People for Education consistently bemoans the disadvantages faced by smaller schools in terms of programming, but the fact is many of these disadvantages are a direct consequence of our school system’s crazy, unnecessarily fractured organization.

This is the reason I support the merger of the Catholic school system with the public school system - well resourced programming for students in the schools and classrooms - would generate more resources for all students, more diverse programming, actual teacher librarians, resources and programming for special education students and so on.

It would be better for the environment because the costs of operating duplicate, half-filled school buildings, and capital upgrade costs would be greatly reduced.

The cost of transportation would be be more efficient and reduced because students would not get bussed passed their "closest school".

Back office resources would be reduced.

And all those "savings" could be used in schools, programming, resources, and the "classroom". Instead of students,parents, and communities having to constantly fundraise for playground equipment, technology and so on for the classroom, we would be able to fund it.

And you know what, if a catholic or any religion wanted to use the facilities for education teachings for outside of the school day, the facilities could be offered for free, as long as those teachings didn't contravene human rights and the laws of the land.

It would be a win win.

 


Rebecca West
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Joined: Nov 28 2001

I cannot say this enough: no public funding for religion in schools.  We live in a secular society, where religion and spirituality are a matter of personal conscience and family tradition.  If parents want their particular religious practices to extend to their children's mainstream education, when by all means, pay for it.  Otherwise, continue to use the resources available at the temple, synagogue, mosque or church of your choice, where your children will presumably receive some form of religious education.

It's wrong to cherry-pick those parochial schools we deem worthy of funding because of their alignment with our views on society, human rights, etc.  No religion in publicly-funded schools. Period.


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Pinocchio McGuinty sux. Ask any teacher in Ontario.

Unionist wrote:
No, it's because they teach hatred (of the rights of women, queers, "others", and just plain humans) and ignorance about how the world works. And, most importantly, because they preach and perpetuate the segregation of school-children on the basis of religion.

Majority of Catholic teachers support gay-straight alliances in our schools and oppose bullying of any kind, and that includes bullying kids for their gender or sexual orientation. Catholic teachers are serious about this issue, and so I have no idea what you are on about with your seething anti-Catholic rhetoric as usual.

The only Canadians living in segregation today are whole nations of indigenous people still herded like so much cattle onto narrow strips of godforsaken land along your Queen's highways across the country. What's up with that?


toaster
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Joined: Sep 5 2011

Fidel wrote:

Pinocchio McGuinty sux. Ask any teacher in Ontario.

Unionist wrote:
No, it's because they teach hatred (of the rights of women, queers, "others", and just plain humans) and ignorance about how the world works. And, most importantly, because they preach and perpetuate the segregation of school-children on the basis of religion.

Majority of Catholic teachers support gay-straight alliances in our schools and oppose bullying of any kind, and that includes bullying kids for their gender or sexual orientation. Catholic teachers are serious about this issue, and so I have no idea what you are on about with your seething anti-Catholic rhetoric as usual.

The only Canadians living in segregation today are whole nations of indigenous people still herded like so much cattle onto narrow strips of godforsaken land along your Queen's highways across the country. What's up with that?

Why are you bringing bullying into this?  The original poster did not mention bullying at all.  They talked about hatred.  Catholic schools teach children that homosexuals acts are wrong.  The don't necessarily say that being "gay" is wrong, but that the act is wrong.  That is hatred.  They do not hire openly gay teachers (in my experience anyway) who are also Catholic.  So gay children in these schools have absolutely no roll-models.  They also explicitly advocate an anti-abortion position.  Why is it okay to do this under the guise of religion?  Can I create a religion that had a hatred to ethnic minorities, and teach that inter-racial marriage is wrong, get funding to open schools, and then teach this hatred to children?  No.  Human rights triumpth religion.  Period.


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

toaster wrote:

Why are you bringing bullying into this?

Because it's currently high on the education system's policy agenda in Ontario right now.

toaster wrote:
  Catholic schools teach children that homosexuals acts are wrong.  The don't necessarily say that being "gay" is wrong, but that the act is wrong.  That is hatred.

I think you are confused with what Catholic Church doctrine says and what is actually taught in Catholic schools. I am not aware of this hatred you claim is being taught in Ontario schools. I think you are stretching the truth just a little here. I attended Catholic school in the 1970s and 80s, and I don't remember any teacher dwelling on the subject. I do not remember being taught to hate anyone.

OTOH the Pinocchio McGuilty Liberal government hate all school children regardless of religious affiliation. Children and teachers alike are feeling the hatred daily. Pinocchio and his Liberals want to create an education system which hath no soul.


janfromthebruce
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Joined: Apr 24 2007

Except that secondary catholic schools rent buses and spend a day on the Ottawa Hill to protest against "abortion" - your tax dollars at work. And Catholic bds did everything in their power to not enact support groups in schools for gay/lesbian/transgendered students.


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Our grade eight classes travelled to Ottawa when we could raise the money ourselves, but all we did was make a scheduled visit to Parliament and took in a museum or two.

And I remember that money was an issue for us because I helped make popcorn and sell pop on school movie nights. I remember doing car washes and bakesales. And I distinctly remember teachers working hard to try and include two native students on our travel agenda to Ottawa, but they were wards of the province(Ontario was owned and operated by Tories then) and were refused permission to go.

And then there was the issue of separate school fees for my parents at our only secondary Catholic high school, and so my parents decided the cheaper public high school was the way to go for me. I hated it and ended up enrolling in boxing classes at the Y as a way to deal with the awful bullying allowed to happen there. I ended up in a punch-out off school property with a kid who was a fully grown adult male at the time and a few inches taller. Long-short, the bullying stopped for me but not for others. I was glad to get away from that school in the end. I can remember not wanting to be there most of the time. I remember wondering whether  teachers there knew what was happening in the halls and lunchrooms. One teacher, I learnt later, placed a small wager against me in the big fight. He was a shitty teacher too and was glad to disappoint him.

But I can honestly say that I was not taught to hate anyone at any time during my separate school experience. Truth is sometimes stranger than fiction, we know.


Tommy_Paine
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Joined: Apr 22 2001


We can tap dance around it all we want, but to fund one religious education over all others is fundamentally wrong no matter how you look at it.

 


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