Catholic school funding 5

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Unionist

No, it's because they teach hatred (of the rights of women, queers, "others", and just plain humans) and ignorance about how the world works. And, most importantly, because they preach and perpetuate the segregation of school-children on the basis of religion.

Geoff OB

Thanks for the informative post, OL12.  We need good information on exactly how and where we would save money by unifying the school system.  Whether we like it or not, in the current economic climate, economic arguments hold more sway than philosophical or moral arguments. 

The kind of information you've provided needs to be reiterated again and again in the literature distributed by 'one school system' advocates.  I believe it will carry more weight with a broader spectrum of the population.

janfromthebruce

The combination of under enrolled schools would also significantly reduce the prevalence of split grade classes as the splits in adjacent under enrolled schools were combined in one school.

Not all of the benefits of merging our school systems are financial.  By combining adjacent under enrolled schools, schools that now cannot achieve the critical mass for many programs and courses would do so, broadening academic opportunities for all students.  In its reports, People for Education consistently bemoans the disadvantages faced by smaller schools in terms of programming, but the fact is many of these disadvantages are a direct consequence of our school system’s crazy, unnecessarily fractured organization.

This is the reason I support the merger of the Catholic school system with the public school system - well resourced programming for students in the schools and classrooms - would generate more resources for all students, more diverse programming, actual teacher librarians, resources and programming for special education students and so on.

It would be better for the environment because the costs of operating duplicate, half-filled school buildings, and capital upgrade costs would be greatly reduced.

The cost of transportation would be be more efficient and reduced because students would not get bussed passed their "closest school".

Back office resources would be reduced.

And all those "savings" could be used in schools, programming, resources, and the "classroom". Instead of students,parents, and communities having to constantly fundraise for playground equipment, technology and so on for the classroom, we would be able to fund it.

And you know what, if a catholic or any religion wanted to use the facilities for education teachings for outside of the school day, the facilities could be offered for free, as long as those teachings didn't contravene human rights and the laws of the land.

It would be a win win.

 

MegB

I cannot say this enough: no public funding for religion in schools.  We live in a secular society, where religion and spirituality are a matter of personal conscience and family tradition.  If parents want their particular religious practices to extend to their children's mainstream education, when by all means, pay for it.  Otherwise, continue to use the resources available at the temple, synagogue, mosque or church of your choice, where your children will presumably receive some form of religious education.

It's wrong to cherry-pick those parochial schools we deem worthy of funding because of their alignment with our views on society, human rights, etc.  No religion in publicly-funded schools. Period.

Fidel

Pinocchio McGuinty sux. Ask any teacher in Ontario.

Unionist wrote:
No, it's because they teach hatred (of the rights of women, queers, "others", and just plain humans) and ignorance about how the world works. And, most importantly, because they preach and perpetuate the segregation of school-children on the basis of religion.

Majority of Catholic teachers support gay-straight alliances in our schools and oppose bullying of any kind, and that includes bullying kids for their gender or sexual orientation. Catholic teachers are serious about this issue, and so I have no idea what you are on about with your seething anti-Catholic rhetoric as usual.

The only Canadians living in segregation today are whole nations of indigenous people still herded like so much cattle onto narrow strips of godforsaken land along your Queen's highways across the country. What's up with that?

toaster

Fidel wrote:

Pinocchio McGuinty sux. Ask any teacher in Ontario.

Unionist wrote:
No, it's because they teach hatred (of the rights of women, queers, "others", and just plain humans) and ignorance about how the world works. And, most importantly, because they preach and perpetuate the segregation of school-children on the basis of religion.

Majority of Catholic teachers support gay-straight alliances in our schools and oppose bullying of any kind, and that includes bullying kids for their gender or sexual orientation. Catholic teachers are serious about this issue, and so I have no idea what you are on about with your seething anti-Catholic rhetoric as usual.

The only Canadians living in segregation today are whole nations of indigenous people still herded like so much cattle onto narrow strips of godforsaken land along your Queen's highways across the country. What's up with that?

Why are you bringing bullying into this?  The original poster did not mention bullying at all.  They talked about hatred.  Catholic schools teach children that homosexuals acts are wrong.  The don't necessarily say that being "gay" is wrong, but that the act is wrong.  That is hatred.  They do not hire openly gay teachers (in my experience anyway) who are also Catholic.  So gay children in these schools have absolutely no roll-models.  They also explicitly advocate an anti-abortion position.  Why is it okay to do this under the guise of religion?  Can I create a religion that had a hatred to ethnic minorities, and teach that inter-racial marriage is wrong, get funding to open schools, and then teach this hatred to children?  No.  Human rights triumpth religion.  Period.

Fidel

toaster wrote:

Why are you bringing bullying into this?

Because it's currently high on the education system's policy agenda in Ontario right now.

toaster wrote:
  Catholic schools teach children that homosexuals acts are wrong.  The don't necessarily say that being "gay" is wrong, but that the act is wrong.  That is hatred.

I think you are confused with what Catholic Church doctrine says and what is actually taught in Catholic schools. I am not aware of this hatred you claim is being taught in Ontario schools. I think you are stretching the truth just a little here. I attended Catholic school in the 1970s and 80s, and I don't remember any teacher dwelling on the subject. I do not remember being taught to hate anyone.

OTOH the Pinocchio McGuilty Liberal government hate all school children regardless of religious affiliation. Children and teachers alike are feeling the hatred daily. Pinocchio and his Liberals want to create an education system which hath no soul.

janfromthebruce

Except that secondary catholic schools rent buses and spend a day on the Ottawa Hill to protest against "abortion" - your tax dollars at work. And Catholic bds did everything in their power to not enact support groups in schools for gay/lesbian/transgendered students.

Tommy_Paine

We can tap dance around it all we want, but to fund one religious education over all others is fundamentally wrong no matter how you look at it.

 

Fidel

Our grade eight classes travelled to Ottawa when we could raise the money ourselves, but all we did was make a scheduled visit to Parliament and took in a museum or two.

And I remember that money was an issue for us because I helped make popcorn and sell pop on school movie nights. I remember doing car washes and bakesales. And I distinctly remember teachers working hard to try and include two native students on our travel agenda to Ottawa, but they were wards of the province(Ontario was owned and operated by Tories then) and were refused permission to go.

And then there was the issue of separate school fees for my parents at our only secondary Catholic high school, and so my parents decided the cheaper public high school was the way to go for me. I hated it and ended up enrolling in boxing classes at the Y as a way to deal with the awful bullying allowed to happen there. I ended up in a punch-out off school property with a kid who was a fully grown adult male at the time and a few inches taller. Long-short, the bullying stopped for me but not for others. I was glad to get away from that school in the end. I can remember not wanting to be there most of the time. I remember wondering whether  teachers there knew what was happening in the halls and lunchrooms. One teacher, I learnt later, placed a small wager against me in the big fight. He was a shitty teacher too and was glad to disappoint him.

But I can honestly say that I was not taught to hate anyone at any time during my separate school experience. Truth is sometimes stranger than fiction, we know.

Fidel

The same thing could be said about funding more than one language, and I suspect the long running right-wing English language only groups have common cause with some of these anti-Catholic organizations.

The bottom line is not money in this province. Lack of funding and strangling public spending on everything from education to essential infrastructure is their goal, really. We are being brainwashed into believing that democratically elected governments have no power over resource allocation, money and funding etc. We are quietly being led to understand that foreign and domestic banks, money speculators and "the markets" rule our world not governments. But none of us voted for the money people lurking in the shadows.

And this is why teachers are opposed to the Liberal government today. If we are going to teach democracy in schools, we have to show the kids we are prepared to fight for democracy. I stand with all teachers in Ontario against this dictatorial government at Queen's Park. United we stand.

Tommy_Paine

Like the democratic ideal of the secular state?

Fidel

Tommy_Paine wrote:

Like the democratic ideal of the secular state?

I will support separate schools as long as they produce academic results for students. 

But I can never support rule by unelected central bankers, financier oligarchies nor their puppet governments.  If we do support this notion that we can not afford separate schools, then the same fiscal argument eventually leads to infrastructure and essential public services, like safe drinking water etc. The Harrisites murdered so many Ontarians with their ideology for shorting public spending on safe drinking water.

Eventually they will want to open public education barn doors fully to market forces. If you believe in laissez-faire baloney, which I don't, then I believe attacking separate school funding today is just a dry run for the neoliberal full monty down the road. Laissez-faire ended in abysmal failure in various world experients since 14th century Italy. Laissez-faire is proven road to serfdom.

Tommy_Paine

I'm not arguing this from a fiscal point of view.  

I'm saying it's wrong to fund one religion's education over all others.   

Fidel

Tommy_Paine wrote:

I'm not arguing this from a fiscal point of view.  

I'm saying it's wrong to fund one religion's education over all others.   

You can say whatever you want - it's a semi-free country still. But right now we are united against the McGuinty dictatorship. Bigger fish to fry as they say, and Pinocchio should make for good kindling by 2015 or whenever FPTP polls look good to bring him down in the mean time. But I can tell you that you are a long way away from living in a secular democracy, Tommy, and by a heckuva lot more than just separate school funding standing in your way.

Sometimes it can be to our advantage to have alliances against that greater evil which needs removing from the picture in order to pursue the greater good. I don't think this is the time for divisiveness to be honest. Fighting on two completely different fronts tends to be a losing strategy. McGuilty and his bought and paid-for government must be dealt with first and foremost before we can begin to create your perfect world. Right now the issue is basic democracy and the right to collective bargaining with the government. Basic democratic process is on the front burner for teachers in Ontario today. I'm not saying you are wrong just slightly unaware of which way lies the current battlefront is all. If I said that free hot lunches in schools is a worthy goal, would I be wrong? It might be true, but is it realistic with this government? Why should you believe that this government would entertain your request for a secular state or any other ideal you might think noble and worthwhile?

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Really Tommy why should you talk about anything progressive since this government would never entertain your request for a secular state or any other ideal you might think noble and worthwhile? And don't worry about global capital the federal NDP is going to push for a more vibrant WTO based trade regime. That and their proposal for new trade deals with Europe and Japan will solve all the problems caused by unelected central bankers, financier oligarchies and their puppet governments.

In BC we have the worst of all the systems with all kinds of schools being funded from the public purse.  Not only do we have catholic schools, we have Sikh schools and Hindu schools and Xian fundamentalist schools and academies that cater to rich kids.  At the same time the public system is underfunded because of falling enrollment. 

Tommy_Paine

You are right as usual, Fidel.  It's time to stop the divisivness of funding one religious education to the exclusion of all others.

Fidel

kropotkin1951 wrote:
That and their proposal for new trade deals with Europe and Japan will solve all the problems caused by unelected central bankers, financier oligarchies and their puppet governments.

Well there is no Bill Vanderscam or crooked SoCreds to sell off power deals to corporate America for a song  so I have no idea what you are talking about as usual.

kropotkin1951 wrote:
In BC we have the worst of all the systems with all kinds of schools being funded from the public purse.  Not only do we have catholic schools, we have Sikh schools and Hindu schools and Xian fundamentalist schools and academies that cater to rich kids.  At the same time the public system is underfunded because of falling enrollment.

You might be more at home in secular America where all foreign cultures are boiled-down to so much wet kleenex and forced to speak American. Meanwhile they fund tens of thousands of madrassas in ongoing efforts to destabilize Central Asia while encouraging the likes of Fethullah Gullen.

Fidel

No I'm afraid you're right as usual, Tommy. The problem is not the ongoing dictatorship by a string of bought and paid-for Liberal governments in Toronto or the fact that ALL teachers in Ontario are currently united against Pinocchio McGuilty in their struggle for democracy.

The real and relevant issue, as you insist, is outlined in detail here in the depths of this obscure thread about a third rail issue in old firstpasthepost Ontario, and it's about those damned Catholics again!

If ever we want to get in touch with what is really going on with the important issues Ontario, we should just point google to rabble/babble with search words "Catholics", and "NIMBY."  Cry God help us.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

We have catholic schools, we have Sikh schools and Hindu schools and Xian fundamentalist schools and academies that cater to rich kids.  What you don't get Fidel is none of those are "foreign" to BC's culture. All of those groups have been here since the late 19th century.  However that doesn't change the fact that public schools should receive public funding and people who want their children to go to private schools should pay the cost themselves. 

To me it is not just a secular issue it is an issue of what public funds are used for.  Using the same principal I also don't want public funds to go to security firms that police gated communities.

Oh and Fidel I love your reference to forty year old Socred policies.  I guess it is only the catholic church that we should shelter from its history and not discuss things from forty years ago.

Fidel

kropotkin1951 wrote:

 I guess it is only the catholic church that we should shelter from its history and not discuss things from forty years ago.

Yes, and federal finances and money creation today are exactly as they were in Tommy Douglas' day and age. Not a single thing has changed from your personal point of view. One might be led to believe that the feds are still financing social programs and infrastructure spending through our national bank, and that the Catholic inquisition is still on.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Actually Fidel many things have changed in my view and most of them for the worse.  That includes the fact that the party I supported for decades because it shared my views on things like international trade and NATO no longer supports those things but has become over the last 5 to 10 years just another apologist party for WTO style economic feudalism and NATO's belligerent war mongering. 

Fidel

I might see things your way, ie. the vertically oriented class struggle of domestic capitalism versus workers as described 100 years ago if it was still the case today. If that exact same scenario existed today with countries self-sufficient and self-reliant on themselves only, then there probably wouldn't be a need for economists or economics as a science in general. Global economies are now integrated to a much larger extent than they were in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

We have far too many people in the world to go back to self-reliance and self-sufficiency of the little red schoolhouse conservative state. I don't believe socialism in one country is feasible nor is it considered desirable among modern day socialists.  I am sorry but this is where you and I will have to agree to disagree. I am a Marxist-socialist, and like Marx I say we should embrace a style of globalizing industrial kapitalism not this neoliberal deindustrialization nor the current push for neofeudalism led by a western world clique of bought and paid-for central bankers. Even under the rules of current neoliberal financial regime in existence since the 1970s there is room for democratic countries to make pro-labour choices. That is why I support the NDP and not pie in the sky dreams of a return to 19th century style struggle. They will continue beating our brains in if we stay there.

lagatta

Yes, public funds should go only to secular education - and ensure it truly is secular, and not the covert Protestant system the "Public" system used to be in Ontario. (Of course here, the Catholic boards were by far the larger). 

We got rid of the damned Catholic boards here; school boards are now language-of-instruction based. This was a fight that took many years. 

And yes, Fidel, I am extremely aware of the history of mostly anti-Irish and anti-French bigotry against Catholics in Ontario. But that is no reason not to move forward towards a seculary system that is inclusive of young people of all faith backgrounds and none. What should be done is teach the sorry history of discrimination and bigotry, including the Orangeist variety. 

Fidel

And we'll get right on it just as soon as we get rid of Pinocchio. I can not and simply refuse to argue with you, lagatta. What you say always makes sense to me. Salut!

lagatta wrote:
And yes, Fidel, I am extremely aware of the history of mostly anti-Irish and anti-French bigotry against Catholics in Ontario.

In N. Ontario they used to burn your barn down for as subtle a difference as the spelling of your last name. Our surname has a vowel on the end of it, and it didn't do us much good in places nearby where they only stopped burning crosses on a small hill in the central area by the 60's to early 1970's or so.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Fidel My family is Catholic so quit with the veiled insults.  I had faith until a pedophile convinced me of the error of my ways.

Public funds should only go to public schools.  That is not anti-Catholic and I even put in the context of where I live in that if is not just Catholic funding I would like to see ended but all public funding of private schools.

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

The argument I heard many decades ago - all the way back to when I lived in Bill Davis's Ontario -  is that Catholics - a good part of the population -  pay taxes too, and thus are entitled to the schools they want. I'm not endorsing that sentiment, I'm just saying it's out there. And aren't Catholic schools somehow guaranteed in some relic of Canadian history?  I've got a lousy memory so I can't be specific.

Question: Like I said, my memory is lousy. Is shutting down Catholic school funding actually high on the agenda of any political party, provincial or federal? I just don't know. I'd appreciate an update on this.

onlinediscountanvils

Boom Boom wrote:
aren't Catholic schools somehow guaranteed in some relic of Canadian history?

My understanding is that Section 93 of The Constitution Act guaranteed the constitutional right to separate - not necessarily Catholic - school systems in Ontario and Quebec, although the issue of funding was left for the provinces to decide. Section 29 of The Charter of Rights and Freedoms apparently reaffirms these rights. The Supreme Court has upheld the constitutionality of separate schools, although the United Nations Human Rights Commission has found them to be discriminatory.

 

Boom Boom wrote:
Question: Like I said, my memory is lousy. Is shutting down Catholic school funding actually high on the agenda of any political party, provincial or federal? I just don't know. I'd appreciate an update on this.

Socialist Party of Ontario wrote:
The Socialist Party of Ontario would cease all public funding of Catholic School Boards and would further cease any public funding of any faith based education.

http://tumblr.socialistpartyofontario.ca/post/14146539205/the-platform-o...

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

We have a Socialist Party of Ontario? Will wonders never cease!  Laughing

Fidel

kropotkin1951 wrote:
Fidel My family is Catholic so quit with the veiled insults.  I had faith until a pedophile convinced me of the error of my ways.

I was not addressing you in any way, kropotkin. And I am sorry that you are the victim of a terrible crime. I can say with some degree of certainty that all of the Catholics I know are not pedophiles. In fact I do know a few people from my home town who were sexually abused as children, but their abusers had no professional  connections with religious organizations. I realize this is of no comfort to you, and I wish you all the best in your time of healing.

Boom Boom wrote:
The argument I heard many decades ago - all the way back to when I lived in Bill Davis's Ontario -  is that Catholics - a good part of the population -  pay taxes too, and thus are entitled to the schools they want.

It says here(pdf) that:

Quote:
In 1984 Bill Davis granted "...separate schools the same rights and privileges that were granted to the non-denominational public school system in 1969, namely authority to govern secondary education."

And in 1997,

Quote:
the Provincial Government suspended the right of trustees to raise taxes for schools and placed educational
funding exclusively in the hands of the Province for the first time. ... financing model means equality of funding for Catholic and public schools. ... In the current ideological climate dominated by the proverbial “bottom line” and secular values, it is believed by some that the taxpayers of Ontario will be loath to support two education systems.

Ideological climate is the right term I believe. We have to save money!

We have to spend wisely because our crooked governments have squandered billions else where on unnecessary interest payments to foreign creditors and domestic banks whose bottom lines are not found wanting and especially since about 1991 or so.We have to save money because we must continue shovelling tens of billions of dollars in interest payments to private creditors unnecessarily each and every year. Who's running things, our corrupt stooges or their non-elected pals in high finance and banking? At what point does a resource-rich country like Canada ever climb out of indebtedness to parasitic financier oligarchies and become a net creditor nation like those ones governed by social democrats in Nordic countries long time?

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

Good find, Fidel. I've been out of Ontario since 1995 - is there a political party with elected representatives at Queen's Park - ie, not the Socialist Party of Ontario Laughing - with the agenda to remove Roman Catholic School public funding?

Fidel

I think that the currently obsolete electoral system favours the status quo in many regards. Real issues not just this one are easily sidestepped and especially during snap election calls which is another problem. Political parties must appeal to the ones doing the voting every four years i.e false majority rule. I should think the NDP might want to win FPTP election on a higher note than forcing a third rail issue like school funding. I think that with FPTP it could be political suicide to challenge the still significant potential Catholic vote in Ontario. I think there are higher priorities for Ontarians still voting, like unemployment, poverty and health care.

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

That's about what I thought. Thanks.

 

Tommy_Paine

The interesting political aspect to this was when John Tory by name and deed took the argument the other way-- trying to extend full funding to any and all religious groups.   If ever the metaphore of touching the "Third Rail" in politics was apt, it was certainly this.  Tory was not only rebuffed by the electorate-- who maintained their resentment even after he dropped the idea-- he faced an open revolt in his caucus.

I think the major fear of secularists had for a long time been that the Catholic system might be used to sell such a system.  Now that this has shown to be a non-starter, we've settled into a sort of truce for the time being.  For the reasons Fidel sites above, even if there is a majority in favour of a totally secular system, no political party wants to broach the subject. 

janfromthebruce

Fidel, your experience in the past is aweful. Having said that, this is not the same Province as yesterday. With the large decline in regular catholic church attendance, it means that those who send their children to separate schools are not doing it for "religous reasons" but other reasons. Research in the past shows that programming is number one reason, whereas religious instruction is way down the list.

Because catholic schools receive more edu dollars per student than public school students, it would be more "equitable" to have one school system for both official languages and thus all students would be treated equally. Why not take the "best" of both competing systems so ALL STUDENTS benefit?

Thank goodness we don't support segregated workplaces, and women can now vote and leave the home to work is they want. Things do change for the better.

Unionist

Fidel wrote:

I think that with FPTP it could be political suicide to challenge the still significant potential Catholic vote in Ontario. I think there are higher priorities for Ontarians still voting, like unemployment, poverty and health care.

It's amazing we were able to push through same-sex marriage while those other "priorities" were still there. And votes for women. It's a shame Ontario voters (and parties) have lost the ability to multitask.

 

Fidel

Unionist wrote:

Fidel wrote:

I think that with FPTP it could be political suicide to challenge the still significant potential Catholic vote in Ontario. I think there are higher priorities for Ontarians still voting, like unemployment, poverty and health care.

It's amazing we were able to push through same-sex marriage while those other "priorities" were still there. And votes for women. It's a shame Ontario voters (and parties) have lost the ability to multitask.

The current Bay Street dictatorship in Toronto is citing money issues as the reason for side-slipping contractual obligations to teachers and school children as well as the teacher's rights to collective bargaining.

There really are multiple tasks requiring Ontario teachers attention. We don't have to tell teachers in Ontario how to multi-task - they've been doing it for years without pay.

The issue of school funding could be allocated a grand total of one week's debate leading up to a snap election. And that would still be one week more than was given to debating our obsolete electoral system before a referendum date. Let us not laugh so much at these high ideals for democracy in old Ontario, though. Yes we should set the bar higher. Yes we should have a lot more democracy in old, debt-ridden, de-industrializing Ontario than we do have. And there should be no diseases or poverty, either.

I like the way you think, Unionist. We both want a better world. We just differ in how to get there sometimes. You can continue insisting that separate school education be defunded. I will be right here demanding that the dictatorship doff its flimsy argument for spending less and deliberately collecting fewer taxes. I will continue telling people that our current stooegeaucracies in Ottawa and Toronto couldn't manage a lemonade stand if they tried.

They will tell you that they need to be more fiscally responsible, but they are lying to you same as before and always will do. It's how they roll in old Tory and now Liberal Ontario. Properly funding education in Ontario or anywhere else in Canada for that matter is just not on their agenda. Ask me why I think it, and I will fill ten threads with why nots. Don't fall for their lies.

janfromthebruce

Actually Fidel, under this liberal govt we have received a lot of edu dollars, so to suggest that underfunding is the main problem is to dismiss that reality.

However, with overall declining student enrolment coupled with funding 4 school systems really makes these dollars inefficienct.

Fidel

janfromthebruce wrote:

Actually Fidel, under this liberal govt we have received a lot of edu dollars, so to suggest that underfunding is the main problem is to dismiss that reality.

I never said that funding is the current issue. That this government has run-up the provincial debt more than any other governments combined in the history of Ontario is not even the issue - that is just a ruse for future bad central planning from confines of a few office towers on Bay Street and foreign banks. 

The current issue for every teacher in Ontario right now is this government's total disdain for democracy in general. This Liberal government was hated when they had 22% of the eligible vote under them and 110% of political power. And they've come down a peg or two since those hay days.

They'll really be hurting for a phony majority next election. Pinocchio McGuilty is a tin pot dictator as far as teachers are concerned. The reality of the current situation around our school is not a lot of talk against separate school funding just to be clear.

janfromthebruce

Fidel, I would hope you would notice that my postings are not for or against but about what is in the interest of all students. No particular group should get "privelege" over another. It's about equity and inclusivity, and fair to all.

 

Fidel

Agreed. 

And since there is no fairness or democratic value whatsoever in allowing financiers and central bankers cliques to control powers of resource allocation normally associated with democratically elected governments, I can't help but think there is a better way than niggling over which public programs deserve funding and which do not. I just think the cart should be placed before the horse same as we are suggesting with fairness in education. 

Might we also agree that there is no valid fiscal argument for defunding education of any kind religious or otherwise? I agree with fairness and equitable education, but I don't think it makes sense to pay bankers and the rentier class their claims to unearned income at the expense of any public program. I don't like being dictated to by people none of us voted for and by a heckuva lot more than I dislike Catholic separate schools churning out positive academic results year afyer year. Way!

6079_Smith_W

Fidel wrote:

Might we also agree that there is no valid fiscal argument for defunding education of any kind religious or otherwise?

No I don't agree, and just because there are some parts of our society over which we do not have control doesn't mean we shouldn't act in cases where we CAN have control.

And in this case - our government helping to pay for a system in which creationism, anti-choice and anti-gay values are built in, and which bucks public and government will just because of its dogma - I want no part of it.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/05/29/f-ont-gay-straight-allian...

Never mind that those so-called results are in part because of cherry-picking and bleeding the public system. I don't support public funding for private religious education that doesn't answer to a public board.

 

 

Fidel

Smith wrote:
No I don't agree, and just because there are some parts of our society over which we do not have control doesn't mean we shouldn't act in cases where we CAN have control.

Because you CAN is not a valid argument. It's disgusting to say the least.  And besides you have no control over Catholic education in addition to your having zero control over our corrupt stoogeaucracy run by Bay Street and foreign bond holders who none of us voted for.

Similarly you have no say over the billions of dollars shovelled to profitable and unprofitable businesses in the form of corporate welfare handouts. And so here you are telling us that Catholic schools, although producing better than average academic results, should be defunded simply because you say it's the only alternative. 

But your non-argument is merely abused child syndrome in disguise. It makes no sense. You will continue defunding public spending down the road and using the same flimsy argument to prop-up some perverse utilitarianism because we must all suffer your Stockholm syndrome the same. No more for me, thank you very little.

I am on the side of democracy not the financier clique instructing our corrupt stooges from the shadows on how to run the country. 

This is still Canada and not the former Yugoslavia torn to shreds by the corrupt financier oligarchy years before blitzkrieg in the 1990's and Bosnia deliberately transformed into a militant Islamic base by the west and their NATO jobbers.

You have zero argument as far as I am concerned. 

6079_Smith_W

Fidel wrote:

And so here you are telling us that Catholic schools, although producing better than average academic results, should be defunded simply because you say it's the only alternative.

No. Primarily because of their dogma, discrimination, and in cases like the campaign for gay-straight alliances, their absolute refusal to consider to the public will despite that public funding.

Plus, you can't attend those schools without taking part in the religious services (at least not in this province). So it's not like everyone can or would want to go  this better than average school.

And it's not the only alternative. There are independant and separate schools which exist on tuition alone, and don't get provincial and municipal funding.

Funny that the largest Christian church in the world, and the largest faith in Canada can't seem to do it without a subsidy from the rest of us.

I don't see defunding happening anytime soon here in SK. They'd have to fuck up in a serious way, like the Catholic board of the hospital in Humboldt did when they just decided they could fish through patient records to see who had tubal ligations

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/story/2007/03/07/hospital.html

But honestly, I'm a bit more concerned about our public school system, and  the extra funding and volunteer time it needs to accomodate a growing number of special needs and ESL students, and provide services that actively include LGBT people and isn't afraid to mention them by name.

 

Fidel

6079_Smith_W wrote:

No. Primarily because of their dogma, discrimination, and in cases like the campaign for gay-straight alliances,

Catholic teachers do support GSA here in Ontario which is province at the centre of topic of discussion at hand.

Smith wrote:
Plus, you can't attend those schools without taking part in the religious services (at least not in this province). So it's not like everyone can or would want to go  this better than average school.

Well in Ontario, again the same province mentioned in passing in the topic of discussion, no one is forced to do anything against their will including not having to participate in dodge ball if they don't want to. We know Saskatchewan is the root of all evil, though, and they will be going to hell in a handbasket for forcing all students to get down on bended knees and pray to Baal or whomever. That's just sick if you ask me.

Smith wrote:
And it's not the only alternative. There are independant and separate schools which exist on tuition alone, and don't get provincial and municipal funding.

So I take it that you're in favour of privatizing education. I wouldn't brag about it here if I were you.

Smith wrote:
Funny that the largest Christian church in the world, and the largest faith in Canada can't seem to do it without a subsidy from the rest of us.

Yeah we should cut corners on education so we can afford to dole out more in corporate welfare payments. always-always cave-in to financial and market bullies at the first sign of trouble, because they need encouraging and even rewarding for their bullying ways. Makes sense to me. Let's see, who or what can we defund next per chance we can call it equitable and fair? Fair for who, the superrich living off compound interest and need throwing off welfare rolls this country? Much will always have more when good people do nothing but complain about a few Catholic kids getting a decent education.

Smith wrote:
I'm a bit more concerned about our public school system, and  the extra funding and volunteer time it needs to accomodate a growing number of special needs and ESL students, and provide services that actively include LGBT people and isn't afraid to mention them by name.

Teachers in the U.S. are paid for time spent on extracurricular activities. Imagine that.

Meanwhile teachers in Ontario are witholding voluntary extracurricular services as one of the few means of protest they are left with against the McGuinty dictatorship running roughshod over collective bargaining.  But that shouldn't concern you and the bean counters obsessed with cutting corners to save a corporate welfare buck. And you'll be back for more blood sooner or later and perhaps looking to "trim the fat" in health care, public pensions, vital infrastructure etc . We know your type. When push comes to shove your kind tend to make it sound as if it's your tax contributions holding society together, and you're not happy about it, either.

And remember this is the Ontario forum. Saskatchewan is two provinces and a couple of time zones thataway.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Fidel on may days it seems you are a galaxy away not just a couple of provinces. No progress can be made until all bankers are eliminated in the meantime don't even mention any other issue because the bankers are evil.  Your analysis is consistent in every thread so at least there is that.

Cool

toaster

Fidel wrote:

6079_Smith_W wrote:

No. Primarily because of their dogma, discrimination, and in cases like the campaign for gay-straight alliances,

Catholic teachers do support GSA here in Ontario which is province at the centre of topic of discussion at hand.

They don't like calling them Gay Straight Alliances.  Catholic religion, and the schools, also teach against what Gay-Straight Alliances stand for, basic equality. 

Fidel wrote:

Smith wrote:
Plus, you can't attend those schools without taking part in the religious services (at least not in this province). So it's not like everyone can or would want to go  this better than average school.

Well in Ontario, again the same province mentioned in passing in the topic of discussion, no one is forced to do anything against their will including not having to participate in dodge ball if they don't want to..

Speak for yourself.  As a student in a Catholic elementary school in Ontario, I was forced to do my first communion, confession, say the Our Father every morning, attend church with my school on special occasions where I had to get down on "bended knees".  I never wanted to do confession, even told my teachers this, but I was forced to.  I never knew what to say and just made everything up.  Thankfully in grade 7 I saw how idiotic it all was and moved to a public school.

Unionist

... but you weren't forced to play dodge ball, right? Look at the bright side.

 

6079_Smith_W

No, I don't support privatizing education, Fidel. I think public funding should go to support the public system.

If someone wants to promote ideas in the education system which are discriminatory (and I'd say denying that gay people are actually gay, and that women should not have the freedom to choose what to do with their bodies is just that), then I don't support paying for that at the expense of the public system which doesn't warp kids minds with those ideas.

I'm surprised Fidel, that you are opting for this off-the-wall argument rather than the historical argument, which actually has some validity - the need for separate schools because of anti-Catholic discrimination in Canada, which is still very strong.

(though some people really don't help the cause when they do things like that hospital board in Humboldt, and the Toronto school board digging in their heels beyond the point of reason)

I feel pretty strongly about keeping religion out of school, but I'd actually be inclined to bend if they'd see reason on an issue like this, which is actually one of the greatest causes of kids being isolated, hating themselves, and killing themselves. I mean, obviously there are gay students in the Catholic system. How to they respond when someone calls someone a homophobic slur? Reinforce it by denying that orientation is real? Is there dogma really worth more dead and warped kids?

As I see it, you can respect your religion, but if you are going to offer a service which is in the public realm, like a school or a hospital, you have to be willing to park some of that dogma at the door, at least to the point of respecting rights that SHOULD be universal.

and @ toaster

Yes, some close friends of ours sent one of their kids to the catholic school because of the great arts program.They couldn't stand the politics; it simply was not worth it.

And it's not like there isn't a struggle in the public system either. I went to high school in a predominantly Catholic area, and there was the Lord's Prayer piped over the loudspeakers, crucifixes on the wall, the librarian was a nun, and I don't recall any classes about evolution. This was 30 years ago, but I read not too long ago that there is still overt religious observances in a number of public schools in Manitoba.

 

 

 

janfromthebruce

In Ontario public schools, all faiths and beliefs of students are welcomed for information purposes. There are courses at the secondary level - a world religions course in which students may discuss and share religious views of all in a respectful discussion - no religous or non religious belief is priveleged.

In the public students all students are welcomed no matter their faith belief, whereas the separate school system can deny admission in the elementary panel. Teaching staff can also be discriminated against if they are not a catholic.

Thus the catholic system is priveleged - it can reject non catholics as students and as education staff. Thus those who are baptized as catholic get the privelege of choosing for their children, either system of fully publicly funded education - ditto for education staff - they can apply to work in both systems.

Now that privelege is given although as of 2012, those who identify as catholic are not at the bottom of minority religious identification in Ontario - thus priveleged.

As for superior education, one may surmise that if you can "pick and choose" your student base, one can ensure that certain students never end up in your system.

So those spec ed kids are most often in the public system. Too bad, we couldn't at least share "buildings" in areas where declining enrolment makes sense, instead of having half filled schools. Would make sense but more often than not, the separate school boards want nothing to do with that.

I have been told that they couldn't possibly share libraries, for instance, because catholic school system bans books, and the public system rarely does that. Can't share gymnasiums because they need that gym for "religious observations". And it goes on and on.

I can go on, but all the reasons I hear of why we can't do something never have to do what is in the best interests of education for students.

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