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Catholic school funding 5

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Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

The same thing could be said about funding more than one language, and I suspect the long running right-wing English language only groups have common cause with some of these anti-Catholic organizations.

The bottom line is not money in this province. Lack of funding and strangling public spending on everything from education to essential infrastructure is their goal, really. We are being brainwashed into believing that democratically elected governments have no power over resource allocation, money and funding etc. We are quietly being led to understand that foreign and domestic banks, money speculators and "the markets" rule our world not governments. But none of us voted for the money people lurking in the shadows.

And this is why teachers are opposed to the Liberal government today. If we are going to teach democracy in schools, we have to show the kids we are prepared to fight for democracy. I stand with all teachers in Ontario against this dictatorial government at Queen's Park. United we stand.


Tommy_Paine
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Joined: Apr 22 2001


Like the democratic ideal of the secular state?


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Tommy_Paine wrote:


Like the democratic ideal of the secular state?

I will support separate schools as long as they produce academic results for students. 

But I can never support rule by unelected central bankers, financier oligarchies nor their puppet governments.  If we do support this notion that we can not afford separate schools, then the same fiscal argument eventually leads to infrastructure and essential public services, like safe drinking water etc. The Harrisites murdered so many Ontarians with their ideology for shorting public spending on safe drinking water.

Eventually they will want to open public education barn doors fully to market forces. If you believe in laissez-faire baloney, which I don't, then I believe attacking separate school funding today is just a dry run for the neoliberal full monty down the road. Laissez-faire ended in abysmal failure in various world experients since 14th century Italy. Laissez-faire is proven road to serfdom.


Tommy_Paine
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Joined: Apr 22 2001

I'm not arguing this from a fiscal point of view.  

I'm saying it's wrong to fund one religion's education over all others.   


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Tommy_Paine wrote:

I'm not arguing this from a fiscal point of view.  

I'm saying it's wrong to fund one religion's education over all others.   

You can say whatever you want - it's a semi-free country still. But right now we are united against the McGuinty dictatorship. Bigger fish to fry as they say, and Pinocchio should make for good kindling by 2015 or whenever FPTP polls look good to bring him down in the mean time. But I can tell you that you are a long way away from living in a secular democracy, Tommy, and by a heckuva lot more than just separate school funding standing in your way.

Sometimes it can be to our advantage to have alliances against that greater evil which needs removing from the picture in order to pursue the greater good. I don't think this is the time for divisiveness to be honest. Fighting on two completely different fronts tends to be a losing strategy. McGuilty and his bought and paid-for government must be dealt with first and foremost before we can begin to create your perfect world. Right now the issue is basic democracy and the right to collective bargaining with the government. Basic democratic process is on the front burner for teachers in Ontario today. I'm not saying you are wrong just slightly unaware of which way lies the current battlefront is all. If I said that free hot lunches in schools is a worthy goal, would I be wrong? It might be true, but is it realistic with this government? Why should you believe that this government would entertain your request for a secular state or any other ideal you might think noble and worthwhile?


kropotkin1951
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Joined: Jun 6 2002

Really Tommy why should you talk about anything progressive since this government would never entertain your request for a secular state or any other ideal you might think noble and worthwhile? And don't worry about global capital the federal NDP is going to push for a more vibrant WTO based trade regime. That and their proposal for new trade deals with Europe and Japan will solve all the problems caused by unelected central bankers, financier oligarchies and their puppet governments.

In BC we have the worst of all the systems with all kinds of schools being funded from the public purse.  Not only do we have catholic schools, we have Sikh schools and Hindu schools and Xian fundamentalist schools and academies that cater to rich kids.  At the same time the public system is underfunded because of falling enrollment. 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

kropotkin1951 wrote:
That and their proposal for new trade deals with Europe and Japan will solve all the problems caused by unelected central bankers, financier oligarchies and their puppet governments.

Well there is no Bill Vanderscam or crooked SoCreds to sell off power deals to corporate America for a song  so I have no idea what you are talking about as usual.

kropotkin1951 wrote:
In BC we have the worst of all the systems with all kinds of schools being funded from the public purse.  Not only do we have catholic schools, we have Sikh schools and Hindu schools and Xian fundamentalist schools and academies that cater to rich kids.  At the same time the public system is underfunded because of falling enrollment.

You might be more at home in secular America where all foreign cultures are boiled-down to so much wet kleenex and forced to speak American. Meanwhile they fund tens of thousands of madrassas in ongoing efforts to destabilize Central Asia while encouraging the likes of Fethullah Gullen.


Tommy_Paine
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Joined: Apr 22 2001


You are right as usual, Fidel.  It's time to stop the divisivness of funding one religious education to the exclusion of all others.


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

No I'm afraid you're right as usual, Tommy. The problem is not the ongoing dictatorship by a string of bought and paid-for Liberal governments in Toronto or the fact that ALL teachers in Ontario are currently united against Pinocchio McGuilty in their struggle for democracy.

The real and relevant issue, as you insist, is outlined in detail here in the depths of this obscure thread about a third rail issue in old firstpasthepost Ontario, and it's about those damned Catholics again!

If ever we want to get in touch with what is really going on with the important issues Ontario, we should just point google to rabble/babble with search words "Catholics", and "NIMBY."  Cry God help us.


kropotkin1951
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Joined: Jun 6 2002

We have catholic schools, we have Sikh schools and Hindu schools and Xian fundamentalist schools and academies that cater to rich kids.  What you don't get Fidel is none of those are "foreign" to BC's culture. All of those groups have been here since the late 19th century.  However that doesn't change the fact that public schools should receive public funding and people who want their children to go to private schools should pay the cost themselves. 

To me it is not just a secular issue it is an issue of what public funds are used for.  Using the same principal I also don't want public funds to go to security firms that police gated communities.

Oh and Fidel I love your reference to forty year old Socred policies.  I guess it is only the catholic church that we should shelter from its history and not discuss things from forty years ago.


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

kropotkin1951 wrote:

 I guess it is only the catholic church that we should shelter from its history and not discuss things from forty years ago.

Yes, and federal finances and money creation today are exactly as they were in Tommy Douglas' day and age. Not a single thing has changed from your personal point of view. One might be led to believe that the feds are still financing social programs and infrastructure spending through our national bank, and that the Catholic inquisition is still on.


kropotkin1951
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Joined: Jun 6 2002

Actually Fidel many things have changed in my view and most of them for the worse.  That includes the fact that the party I supported for decades because it shared my views on things like international trade and NATO no longer supports those things but has become over the last 5 to 10 years just another apologist party for WTO style economic feudalism and NATO's belligerent war mongering. 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

I might see things your way, ie. the vertically oriented class struggle of domestic capitalism versus workers as described 100 years ago if it was still the case today. If that exact same scenario existed today with countries self-sufficient and self-reliant on themselves only, then there probably wouldn't be a need for economists or economics as a science in general. Global economies are now integrated to a much larger extent than they were in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

We have far too many people in the world to go back to self-reliance and self-sufficiency of the little red schoolhouse conservative state. I don't believe socialism in one country is feasible nor is it considered desirable among modern day socialists.  I am sorry but this is where you and I will have to agree to disagree. I am a Marxist-socialist, and like Marx I say we should embrace a style of globalizing industrial kapitalism not this neoliberal deindustrialization nor the current push for neofeudalism led by a western world clique of bought and paid-for central bankers. Even under the rules of current neoliberal financial regime in existence since the 1970s there is room for democratic countries to make pro-labour choices. That is why I support the NDP and not pie in the sky dreams of a return to 19th century style struggle. They will continue beating our brains in if we stay there.


lagatta
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Joined: Apr 17 2002

Yes, public funds should go only to secular education - and ensure it truly is secular, and not the covert Protestant system the "Public" system used to be in Ontario. (Of course here, the Catholic boards were by far the larger). 

We got rid of the damned Catholic boards here; school boards are now language-of-instruction based. This was a fight that took many years. 

And yes, Fidel, I am extremely aware of the history of mostly anti-Irish and anti-French bigotry against Catholics in Ontario. But that is no reason not to move forward towards a seculary system that is inclusive of young people of all faith backgrounds and none. What should be done is teach the sorry history of discrimination and bigotry, including the Orangeist variety. 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

And we'll get right on it just as soon as we get rid of Pinocchio. I can not and simply refuse to argue with you, lagatta. What you say always makes sense to me. Salut!

lagatta wrote:
And yes, Fidel, I am extremely aware of the history of mostly anti-Irish and anti-French bigotry against Catholics in Ontario.

In N. Ontario they used to burn your barn down for as subtle a difference as the spelling of your last name. Our surname has a vowel on the end of it, and it didn't do us much good in places nearby where they only stopped burning crosses on a small hill in the central area by the 60's to early 1970's or so.


kropotkin1951
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Joined: Jun 6 2002

Fidel My family is Catholic so quit with the veiled insults.  I had faith until a pedophile convinced me of the error of my ways.

Public funds should only go to public schools.  That is not anti-Catholic and I even put in the context of where I live in that if is not just Catholic funding I would like to see ended but all public funding of private schools.


Boom Boom
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Joined: Dec 29 2004

The argument I heard many decades ago - all the way back to when I lived in Bill Davis's Ontario -  is that Catholics - a good part of the population -  pay taxes too, and thus are entitled to the schools they want. I'm not endorsing that sentiment, I'm just saying it's out there. And aren't Catholic schools somehow guaranteed in some relic of Canadian history?  I've got a lousy memory so I can't be specific.

Question: Like I said, my memory is lousy. Is shutting down Catholic school funding actually high on the agenda of any political party, provincial or federal? I just don't know. I'd appreciate an update on this.


onlinediscountanvils
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Joined: Jun 7 2012

Boom Boom wrote:
aren't Catholic schools somehow guaranteed in some relic of Canadian history?

My understanding is that Section 93 of The Constitution Act guaranteed the constitutional right to separate - not necessarily Catholic - school systems in Ontario and Quebec, although the issue of funding was left for the provinces to decide. Section 29 of The Charter of Rights and Freedoms apparently reaffirms these rights. The Supreme Court has upheld the constitutionality of separate schools, although the United Nations Human Rights Commission has found them to be discriminatory.

 

Boom Boom wrote:
Question: Like I said, my memory is lousy. Is shutting down Catholic school funding actually high on the agenda of any political party, provincial or federal? I just don't know. I'd appreciate an update on this.

Socialist Party of Ontario wrote:
The Socialist Party of Ontario would cease all public funding of Catholic School Boards and would further cease any public funding of any faith based education.

http://tumblr.socialistpartyofontario.ca/post/14146539205/the-platform-o...


Boom Boom
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Joined: Dec 29 2004

We have a Socialist Party of Ontario? Will wonders never cease!  Laughing


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

kropotkin1951 wrote:
Fidel My family is Catholic so quit with the veiled insults.  I had faith until a pedophile convinced me of the error of my ways.

I was not addressing you in any way, kropotkin. And I am sorry that you are the victim of a terrible crime. I can say with some degree of certainty that all of the Catholics I know are not pedophiles. In fact I do know a few people from my home town who were sexually abused as children, but their abusers had no professional  connections with religious organizations. I realize this is of no comfort to you, and I wish you all the best in your time of healing.

Boom Boom wrote:
The argument I heard many decades ago - all the way back to when I lived in Bill Davis's Ontario -  is that Catholics - a good part of the population -  pay taxes too, and thus are entitled to the schools they want.

It says here(pdf) that:

Quote:
In 1984 Bill Davis granted "...separate schools the same rights and privileges that were granted to the non-denominational public school system in 1969, namely authority to govern secondary education."

And in 1997,

Quote:
the Provincial Government suspended the right of trustees to raise taxes for schools and placed educational
funding exclusively in the hands of the Province for the first time. ... financing model means equality of funding for Catholic and public schools. ... In the current ideological climate dominated by the proverbial “bottom line” and secular values, it is believed by some that the taxpayers of Ontario will be loath to support two education systems.

Ideological climate is the right term I believe. We have to save money!

We have to spend wisely because our crooked governments have squandered billions else where on unnecessary interest payments to foreign creditors and domestic banks whose bottom lines are not found wanting and especially since about 1991 or so.We have to save money because we must continue shovelling tens of billions of dollars in interest payments to private creditors unnecessarily each and every year. Who's running things, our corrupt stooges or their non-elected pals in high finance and banking? At what point does a resource-rich country like Canada ever climb out of indebtedness to parasitic financier oligarchies and become a net creditor nation like those ones governed by social democrats in Nordic countries long time?


Boom Boom
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Joined: Dec 29 2004

Good find, Fidel. I've been out of Ontario since 1995 - is there a political party with elected representatives at Queen's Park - ie, not the Socialist Party of Ontario Laughing - with the agenda to remove Roman Catholic School public funding?


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

I think that the currently obsolete electoral system favours the status quo in many regards. Real issues not just this one are easily sidestepped and especially during snap election calls which is another problem. Political parties must appeal to the ones doing the voting every four years i.e false majority rule. I should think the NDP might want to win FPTP election on a higher note than forcing a third rail issue like school funding. I think that with FPTP it could be political suicide to challenge the still significant potential Catholic vote in Ontario. I think there are higher priorities for Ontarians still voting, like unemployment, poverty and health care.


Boom Boom
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Joined: Dec 29 2004

That's about what I thought. Thanks.

 


Tommy_Paine
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Joined: Apr 22 2001


The interesting political aspect to this was when John Tory by name and deed took the argument the other way-- trying to extend full funding to any and all religious groups.   If ever the metaphore of touching the "Third Rail" in politics was apt, it was certainly this.  Tory was not only rebuffed by the electorate-- who maintained their resentment even after he dropped the idea-- he faced an open revolt in his caucus.

I think the major fear of secularists had for a long time been that the Catholic system might be used to sell such a system.  Now that this has shown to be a non-starter, we've settled into a sort of truce for the time being.  For the reasons Fidel sites above, even if there is a majority in favour of a totally secular system, no political party wants to broach the subject. 


janfromthebruce
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Joined: Apr 24 2007

Fidel, your experience in the past is aweful. Having said that, this is not the same Province as yesterday. With the large decline in regular catholic church attendance, it means that those who send their children to separate schools are not doing it for "religous reasons" but other reasons. Research in the past shows that programming is number one reason, whereas religious instruction is way down the list.

Because catholic schools receive more edu dollars per student than public school students, it would be more "equitable" to have one school system for both official languages and thus all students would be treated equally. Why not take the "best" of both competing systems so ALL STUDENTS benefit?

Thank goodness we don't support segregated workplaces, and women can now vote and leave the home to work is they want. Things do change for the better.


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

Fidel wrote:

I think that with FPTP it could be political suicide to challenge the still significant potential Catholic vote in Ontario. I think there are higher priorities for Ontarians still voting, like unemployment, poverty and health care.

It's amazing we were able to push through same-sex marriage while those other "priorities" were still there. And votes for women. It's a shame Ontario voters (and parties) have lost the ability to multitask.

 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Unionist wrote:

Fidel wrote:

I think that with FPTP it could be political suicide to challenge the still significant potential Catholic vote in Ontario. I think there are higher priorities for Ontarians still voting, like unemployment, poverty and health care.

It's amazing we were able to push through same-sex marriage while those other "priorities" were still there. And votes for women. It's a shame Ontario voters (and parties) have lost the ability to multitask.

The current Bay Street dictatorship in Toronto is citing money issues as the reason for side-slipping contractual obligations to teachers and school children as well as the teacher's rights to collective bargaining.

There really are multiple tasks requiring Ontario teachers attention. We don't have to tell teachers in Ontario how to multi-task - they've been doing it for years without pay.

The issue of school funding could be allocated a grand total of one week's debate leading up to a snap election. And that would still be one week more than was given to debating our obsolete electoral system before a referendum date. Let us not laugh so much at these high ideals for democracy in old Ontario, though. Yes we should set the bar higher. Yes we should have a lot more democracy in old, debt-ridden, de-industrializing Ontario than we do have. And there should be no diseases or poverty, either.

I like the way you think, Unionist. We both want a better world. We just differ in how to get there sometimes. You can continue insisting that separate school education be defunded. I will be right here demanding that the dictatorship doff its flimsy argument for spending less and deliberately collecting fewer taxes. I will continue telling people that our current stooegeaucracies in Ottawa and Toronto couldn't manage a lemonade stand if they tried.

They will tell you that they need to be more fiscally responsible, but they are lying to you same as before and always will do. It's how they roll in old Tory and now Liberal Ontario. Properly funding education in Ontario or anywhere else in Canada for that matter is just not on their agenda. Ask me why I think it, and I will fill ten threads with why nots. Don't fall for their lies.


janfromthebruce
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Joined: Apr 24 2007

Actually Fidel, under this liberal govt we have received a lot of edu dollars, so to suggest that underfunding is the main problem is to dismiss that reality.

However, with overall declining student enrolment coupled with funding 4 school systems really makes these dollars inefficienct.


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

janfromthebruce wrote:

Actually Fidel, under this liberal govt we have received a lot of edu dollars, so to suggest that underfunding is the main problem is to dismiss that reality.

I never said that funding is the current issue. That this government has run-up the provincial debt more than any other governments combined in the history of Ontario is not even the issue - that is just a ruse for future bad central planning from confines of a few office towers on Bay Street and foreign banks. 

The current issue for every teacher in Ontario right now is this government's total disdain for democracy in general. This Liberal government was hated when they had 22% of the eligible vote under them and 110% of political power. And they've come down a peg or two since those hay days.

They'll really be hurting for a phony majority next election. Pinocchio McGuilty is a tin pot dictator as far as teachers are concerned. The reality of the current situation around our school is not a lot of talk against separate school funding just to be clear.


janfromthebruce
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Joined: Apr 24 2007

Fidel, I would hope you would notice that my postings are not for or against but about what is in the interest of all students. No particular group should get "privelege" over another. It's about equity and inclusivity, and fair to all.

 


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