Catholic school funding 5

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Slumberjack

So..in order to be properly considered as a rational realist, one must dabble in the irrational, or at least acquiesce to it?

Fidel

lol! Get rid of religion get rid of war and barbarity. What a laugh-riot you are today. That would be funny if it wasn't so naive and idiotic. 

Your problem today in the world is not religion. Religion makes zero profit from warfiteering. Religionists are the ones with backbones and making a stand against the neoliberal bullshit in the Middle East and Central Asia today. They don't want your phony freedoms, the ones you you've been propagandized into thinking you have. 

Noam Chomsky says to focus on crimes of the state not crimes of a 14th century Catholic inquisition or even what happened 40 years ago. Leveraging sex abuse victims of 40 years ago to make a feeble case for defunding public education today is just idiot logic. Your arguments for neoliberal defunding of education become dumber by the minute. 

Your problem, if you want to be truthful with yourselves,  is that you are bigoted and intolerant of Catholics. My father went overseas in 1939 to stop the fascist bigots from globalizing their bigotry and intolerance. 

Just say no to neofascism and crimes of the state,  bigotry, hatred and intolerance, and the world will do just fine without defunding education to free-up more public money to pay to the corporate welfare bums and the rich who've become dependent on taxpayer-funded welfare programs for those who don't need them.

Fidel

Slumberjack wrote:

So..in order to be properly considered as a rational realist, one must dabble in the irrational, or at least acquiesce to it?

It is irrational to believe you can disprove the existence of a God, Allah or even the spaghetti monster. Actual scientists know that is a fool's errand.

Science is not in the business of proving the unprovable, so you'll just have to ponder the irrational by yourself I'm afraid.

oldgoat

Regarding a reference to a flagged thread, (post 148 I think)  you're right, it probably won't do much good.  No one is being insulted beyond the usual background level that keeps things spicy around here.  I'm not aware of anyone who's contavening policy.  Can't say I uniformly agree with Fidel point for point, and have sometimes found his paths of logic to stray through the eccentric, but that's not a quality I've ever really faulted. Keeps the world interesting IMO.  No law that says you have to engage him or that he has to engage you.  Let's keep this on a higher plane.  Having said all that, I didn't read the whole thread, and I stop moderating tomorrow, so I'm unlikely to do so.

Have a pleasant afternoon.

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

It is also irrational to think that you can prove the existence of any god or goddess including the nasty father figure that people worship in Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Also don't defund catholic schools because all those catholic teachers would then have to compete for jobs without their religion giving them a leg up over other qualified applicants who do not believe in the unprovable.

Fidel

kropotkin1951 wrote:

It is also irrational to think that you can prove the existence of any god or goddess including the nasty father figure that people worship in Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

That's exactly right, and I didn't even realize that I made such a claim. We won't be sliding just anything past you. Not today nor even in the fullness of time. 

Quote:
Also don't defund catholic schools because all those catholic teachers would then have to compete for jobs without their religion giving them a leg up over other qualified applicants who do not believe in the unprovable.

Nepotism and cronyism exist in your precious publicly funded secular education system the same. There has to be some reason why the crooked Catholic system produces better academic results for students. Pinocchio has shirked very many colonial administrative duties including fixing the crooked setup in Toronto.

 

KeyStone

I think that the future of Ontario will consist of a religious school system, and a secular school system.I think the Catholic school system needs to be opened up to all people of faiths (at least the major ones), and the curriculum changed accordingly.

Muslims, Jews and Christiians have much more in common with eachother than with atheists. Spend some time in former communist countries where religion used to be outlawed, and you'll see that.

Atheism is a religion, just as much as any of these other belief systems, and the public school system seems to have atheism as their forced religion. The fact that such an uproar was made because Muslim students wanted to pray in the cafeteria on Fridays was outrageous.

There's too many people who say they respect the right of religion, but deep down they feel it's all a bunch of nonsense, but will tolerate it just so long as it doesn't conflict with any other right or value in the slightest.

NDP aren't going to pick up a lot of supporters by advocating the end of Catholic schools, but they will make 30% of Ontarians never vote for them again. So far, they have managed to keep their lack of respect for religious beliefs out of any official statements.

KeyStone

I think that the future of Ontario will consist of a religious school system, and a secular school system.I think the Catholic school system needs to be opened up to all people of faiths (at least the major ones), and the curriculum changed accordingly.

Muslims, Jews and Christiians have much more in common with eachother than with atheists. Spend some time in former communist countries where religion used to be outlawed, and you'll see that.

Atheism is a religion, just as much as any of these other belief systems, and the public school system seems to have atheism as their forced religion. The fact that such an uproar was made because Muslim students wanted to pray in the cafeteria on Fridays was outrageous.

There's too many people who say they respect the right of religion, but deep down they feel it's all a bunch of nonsense, but will tolerate it just so long as it doesn't conflict with any other right or value in the slightest.

NDP aren't going to pick up a lot of supporters by advocating the end of Catholic schools, but they will make 30% of Ontarians never vote for them again. So far, they have managed to keep their lack of respect for religious beliefs out of any official statements.

6079_Smith_W

Slumberjack wrote:

So..in order to be properly considered as a rational realist, one must dabble in the irrational, or at least acquiesce to it?

Depends what you mean. Personally, I go by the wealth of research which has found that much of the way our minds work is non-rational (which is not the same thing as is implied by the derogatory term irrational).

And then there is the fact that a good deal (the most essential stuff, IMO) of what is considered spirituality is completely realistic and rational.

But be my guest. Knock yourself out trying to wipe all traces of non-rational brain activity from the face of the earth. Just be careful to not fall asleep and wind up in dreamland while you're at it.

As an old Catholic apoligist once said: "Fairy tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten."

 

Fidel

In order to disprove the existence of God one would have to know the universe, or perhaps understand parallel universes as mainstream theoretical physicists suggest is reality today.

We are a long way away from knowing the universe(s). Lord Rees says that our brains may not be evolved enough to know the universe. That might also be true for the existence of God or even god-like beings. To deny the possible existence of god-like civilizations, that is civilizations far more technically advanced than our own, would be to deny that Darwinian evolution is at work everywhere else in the universe where life proliferates. And scientists know now that cellular life proliferates in the least likely environments previously thought to be incompatible with life.  

Therefore, as the scientists Kardashev and Dyson described it, ourselves might only be a few thousand years away from attaining god-like technical capabilities. That is if, as Sagan reminded us, we don't destroy ourselves in a fit of passion before then at which point it won't matter a great deal to us whether God or god-like evolution is possible. The atheists essentially tell us that it isn't, and it's a very unscientific point of view as far as scientific possibilists like myself are concerned.

Slumberjack

oldgoat wrote:
.....stray through the eccentric, but that's not a quality I've ever really faulted. 

Well thank god for that.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

It is possible that "the Prophets" who live in the Celestial Temple and control the worm hole to another galaxy are not gods but merely an alien race.  All things are possible until you open the box and find that the cat has been dead for ages and stinks to High Heaven.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Who can fix the formatting problem in this thread? 

 

Unionist

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Meh.

I can't say as I agree with you Unionist, neither in the morality, nor in the practicality of getting rid of non-rational belief. It ain't gonna happen.

You habitually misunderstand what others say.

I said we should rid the world of "the barbarity of religion". Wouldn't you agree with that? That means burning scientists alive. It means a Nazi youth Pope telling Africans not to use condoms. It means humiliating, molesting, and demonizing queers, children, women, heretics, human beings in general.

We should excise that from our world.

As for some poor soul believing in magic? Doesn't bother me one bit. Until they try to impose that brain disorder on others. Then they join Category A above.

People are entitled to their faith. They are not entitled to their deeds. And Catholics are not entitled to indoctrinate their kids at the public trough.

 

Unionist

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Who can fix the formatting problem in this thread? 

 

Fidel could easily do so, by editing out the extra [ /quote ] he inserted in post #133. But he's busy right now defending the Faith, so I wouldn't bother him if I were you.

 

Fidel

Joe Goebbels will never be dead as long as we have you people broadcasting your personal hatreds on the internet. Meanwhile war criminals are murdering people of faith in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Africa and Syria where so-called secular governments are aiding and abetting "Al-Qa'eda" which is a scare word for their expendable anti-communist jihadi leftovers from a cold war era.

Fidel

Unionist wrote:

easily do so, by editing out the extra [ /quote ] he inserted in post #133. But he's busy right now defending the Faith, so I wouldn't bother him if I were you.

And you will probably avoid even trying to defend secular governments in this case:

US Recognizes Unelected Al Qaeda Terrorists as Syrian “Representatives” US admits Al Qaeda “amongst” Syrian rebels, recognizes them as the “legitimate representative of the Syrian people.”

Your secular governments are the biggest terrorist organizations on the planet and always have been.

And could someone please remind us of how the Church placed Galileo under house/palace arrest all those centuries ago? Because, and you know, everything and anything is relevant when making a case against Catholic education today.

Never forget.

6079_Smith_W

Unionist wrote:

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Meh.

I can't say as I agree with you Unionist, neither in the morality, nor in the practicality of getting rid of non-rational belief. It ain't gonna happen.

You habitually misunderstand what others say.

I said we should rid the world of "the barbarity of religion".

Thanks for clarifying. I thought you might have been refering to Lennon's song in which he actually imagines a world without any religion at all.

Look Unionist, I know you and I are pretty much in agreement on the issue of separate school funding and on the evils of superstition and organized religion.

I also know you and I have hashed out our respective positions on faith and religion, on which we don't entirely agree.

So while I'll allow you the technicality, I don't think my comment was off the mark.

(edit)

though speaking of technicalities, I think we may just have had a double godwin. That IS grounds for default and closure in some circles.

 

 

Slumberjack

Fidel wrote:
And could someone please remind us of how the Church placed Galileo under house/palace arrest all those centuries ago? Because, and you know, everything and anything is relevant when making a case against Catholic education today.

Apparently by 1992, a Vatican study of the Galileo tribunal produced a statement of regret about the way the Church handled the case.  By the year 2000, the Vatican's Cardinal Sodano concluded that although Giordano Bruno's death was regrettable, the inquisitors 'had the desire to serve freedom and promote the common good and did everything possible to save his life.'  Well, short of torture and burning him alive that is.  One might surmise that here in 2013 standards are a little different, but they're teaching about the 'sin' of condoms and abortion in Africa and elsewhere these days, at the cost of who knows how many lives.

Unionist

Eppur si muove.

Fidel

Slumberjack wrote:

Fidel wrote:
And could someone please remind us of how the Church placed Galileo under house/palace arrest all those centuries ago? Because, and you know, everything and anything is relevant when making a case against Catholic education today.

Apparently by 1992, a Vatican study of the Galileo tribunal produced a statement of regret about the way the Church handled the case.  By the year 2000, the Vatican's Cardinal Sodano concluded that although Giordano Bruno's death was regrettable, the inquisitors 'had the desire to serve freedom and promote the common good and did everything possible to save his life.'  Well, short of torture and burning him alive that is.  One might surmise that here in 2013 standards are a little different, but they're teaching about the 'sin' of condoms and abortion in Africa and elsewhere these days, at the cost of who knows how many lives.

Sorry but they are your secularist gladio governments and their proxy armies in Rwanda and Uganda directly responsible for the slaughter, mutilations, rape and mass murder of 5-6 million human beings in the Congo since the 1990's. 

And I am sorry to have to inform you that what happened centuries ago in Europe has absolutely nothing to do with bigotry and intolerance toward Catholics in modern day Ontario.

VATICAN NEWS: Foreign Fighters, Mercenaries, Terrorists, behind Syria Massacre "The desolation of Homs and the war of information ": the Words of a Greek-Catholic Bishop"

The world would be a far better place without state-sponsored terrorism and secularists' financial and military support for the spread and proliferation of right wing fundamentalist-mercenary wackos around the world.

Sorry to have to catapult you into future-present like this. We know that henry VIII and the rest of his insane inbred-blueblood relatives were da bomb in old Europe, but times have changed since money chased power. Today it's totally different - today power chases money under the neofeudal order of things.  And youre worried about a few Catholic kids doing well academically? Give us a break! 

6079_Smith_W

Bruno went to the stake, in part, for the same point - his support of Copernicus's findings - before Galileo's trial. 

The odd thing is, of course, is it wasn't biblical science at all, but rather the most popular Greek theory, which the church adopted because it seemed to match their creation story.

Of the two I'd say Bruno got more satisfaction because he had no illusions as to where he stood in challenging the authority of the Church.

Also, he got that great sculpture of him with his back turned against the Vatican.

 

Fidel

Fact check: Your secularist-imperialist governments in America have imprisoned more black people than there were total people jailed during the history of the Catholic inquisition. 

But the bigots are uninterested in recent history. Which makes me believe that the bigots, pro-imperialists and closet Orangemen are merely obssessed with broadcasting their usual daily hatreds on babble.

6079_Smith_W

Fidel wrote:

And youre worried about a few Catholic kids doing well academically? Give us a break! 

Never mind that that is a jaw-dropping comment, whose interests do you think are most important here - the school system or those children?

Fidel

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Fidel wrote:

And youre worried about a few Catholic kids doing well academically? Give us a break! 

Never mind that that is a jaw-dropping comment, whose interests do you think are most important here - the school system or those children?

Someone up there said money is not an issue,  it's equality. Well, which is it?

Your money arguments stink, and all that's left now is for you to explain why your calls for defunding public education are eerily similar to neoliberal ideology dressed-up as talk about progressiveness in education.

What do you think neoliberals would do with the money saved by defunding separate schools? Re-invest in and strengthen public secular education?

Give it to the poor and needy?

How bout we just all work together to defund and disemploy the bastards in government who couldn't run a lemonade stand properly if their lives depended on it? Ya?

janfromthebruce

Keystone, made a suggestion that the public school system was a "secular" system or athiest system. It is not. Secular just means that any student of any faith or non faith has the state "right" to an education and may not be refused admission. Secular is not absense of religion in this regard but "inclusive" to all.

As stated previously, the public school system provides curriculum for providing information on all religions where no relgious beliefs are given primacy or top billing. Thus all faiths are respected and discussed enclusively.

 

Fidel

Jan, there is an example posted above of a Catholic schoolboard in Ontario providing a prayer room for Muslim students. I realize that's a little more than providing information on other faiths.

But do secular schools provide prayer rooms for Muslims in respecting students of that faith? I'd be somewhat surprised if there isn't at least one example similarly.

janfromthebruce

yes, Fidel they do so. Last year, there was quite a bit in the press about Toronto DSB providing cafe space for prayer rooms for children of the Muslim faith. Some people disagreed with that accomodation especially as children ended up being segregated by gender - boys in the front and girls in the back.

Schools must provide religious accomodation and we do so including the public school system which is inclusive of all.

6079_Smith_W

Thing is, I don't think the big problem is inclusion, but rather exclusion - as in virtual denial that gay people exist. If that is not correct then why not just call the group what it is?

And Fidel, I don't think anyone here is questioning you personally, so your position on homophobia isn't relevant. It's the school board and its discriminatory policy that is at issue here, and the fact that it is publicly funded without being entirely accountable.

 

Fidel

6079_Smith_W wrote:
And Fidel, I don't think anyone here is questioning you personally, so your position on homophobia isn't relevant. It's the school board and its discriminatory policy that is at issue here, and the fact that it is publicly funded without being entirely accountable.

If all separate schools were to provide prayer rooms for every other faith in a flexible manner tomorrow, would it change your opinion of separate schools? Or would the mission goal for dismantling the separate system still be in effect? 

6079_Smith_W

Fidel wrote:

If all separate schools were to provide prayer rooms for every other faith in a flexible manner tomorrow, would it change your opinion of separate schools? Or would the mission goal for dismantling the separate system still be in effect? 

'scuse me. Is this mike on?

I don't know Fidel, if I repeat myself again, a bit more loudly,  like this:

will you pay attention to the fact that I have said repeatedly that this isn't about inclusion of other faiths, but rather exclusion of LGBT people?

And as for your "Will you stop fucking goats now?" framing of the question, clearly you haven't been paying attention to my stated position on separate schools.

No, I don't in principle support public funding for separate schools, and I don't appreciate that more of my income tax goes to per capita Catholic school funding than it does to the public system and my own kids. But as I have already said, it is complicated, both by the historical background of the separate system, and the fact that what I see as important Native cultural and Cree, French and Ukrainian language training is under the Catholic system.

So until there is a better option I grit my teeth on that system's indoctrination when it comes to choice, orientation, sex, the role of women, religion, and science. But I do expect a bit of give and take, and when, in the face of a bullying epidemic that has kids killing themselves and others, this church of yours can't park its dogma enough to recognize that gay people exist, and yet still expect us to pay for their arrogance and hatred without complaint, I have a problem.

If this gets to the point of actually shutting down those schools, it won't be because of others' refusal to compromise, Fidel, but of those running your system. After all, church rules are church rules, but if your school boards can be all inclusive and respect other beliefs, they can also be inclusive enough to recognize that gay people exist.

 

 

 

 

janfromthebruce

Whether a school offers "prayer rooms" or not is not the main thing but whether the school and above it, the board actually professes an inclusive environment. So homophobia is real, banning books is real, and suggesting that other religions or non religions are less in the "eyes" of the catholic faith is wrong.

And why is exclusion okay at the elementary level, and privilege given to those staff who are catholic. That is so discrimatory.

Finally, an underlying principle of social democracy is equity and fairness, the opposite of "separate" school.

Fidel

6079_Smith_W wrote:

No, I don't in principle support public funding for separate schools, and I don't appreciate that more of my income tax goes to per capita Catholic school funding than it does to the public system and my own kids.

About a third of the education budget, ~$24 billion, goes to separate schools. And about 23% of electors direct their education taxes to separate schools. Are you one of the 23% directing your education taxes to separate schools? 

Winston Smith wrote:
But as I have already said, it is complicated, both by the historical background of the separate system, and the fact that what I see as important Native cultural and Cree, French and Ukrainian language training is under the Catholic system.

So on the one hand you want to defund Catholic schools entirely, and it's because you want equity and fairness in education.

And then you mention the need to fund language training only for indigenous people and some other groups. Why only only money for language training? Apparently all of you, the Catholic Church and colonial-administrative governments past agree that there is no need for indigenous spirituality or religious studies in education. And that's because you know what's best for them without even consulting them. Never mind that traditional indigenous spiritual beliefs are, today, considered some of the most advanced and complex spiritual belief systems in the world. You tend to side with the 16th and 17th century Church and imperial order of the day, though, and make no mention of funding indigenous spiritual education.

Other rich countries are already encouraging indigenous language training in native schools as part of the regular curriculum. In some experiments in the U.S., overall academic results are better in those schools than for English/American language-only schools. Nothing doing in Canada, though. According to opinions in this and dozens of other threads on this third rail issue, all is well in Ontario except for that darn separate school funding. And now you tell us that you are being forced against your will to pay extra to Catholic schools.

It's an interesting point of view  to say the least.

onlinediscountanvils

Fidel wrote:
traditional indigenous spiritual beliefs are, today, considered some of the most advanced and complex spiritual belief systems in the world.

wtf?

6079_Smith_W

I don't know where your numbers are from Fidel, but I live in Saskatchewan.

The breakdown here in Saskatoon is that property taxes pay about 48 percent of funding for public schools, only about 30 percent for the Catholic system.

There are other sources of funding, but basically provincial general revenue pays a larger portion of the Catholic system (over 60 percent) than it does the public system (under  50 percent).

But as I also said, it is complicated, and there are other things to be weighed against that imbalance.

I have no idea what you are getting at with the rest of your comment, and I can't see how it relates to any of my points.

 

quizzical

onlinediscountanvils wrote:
Fidel wrote:
traditional indigenous spiritual beliefs are, today, considered some of the most advanced and complex spiritual belief systems in the world.

wtf?

you think this comment is an error?  i only gotta  give 1 example 'mayan' to support it. but there're lots more.

archeology  and anthropology are slowly rebuildinhg "our" stolen past. the peoples of Turtle Island are not the primitive savages white people were taught they were.

Fidel

6079_Smith_W wrote:

I don't know where your numbers are from Fidel, but I live in Saskatchewan...

I have no idea what you are getting at with the rest of your comment, and I can't see how it relates to any of my points.

And I am in Ontario. That's in Central Canada, and I am posting in a forum under a heading entitled, Central Canada. Sorry for the mixup. I never voted for this duplication of government bureacuracies over ten large provincial boundaries and territories. Did the bastards annex Saskatoon when I wasn't looking? It figures.

Fidel

No I just had no idea what you were asking me . And I still don't.

6079_Smith_W

Fidel wrote:

And I am in Ontario. That's in Central Canada, and I am posting in a forum under a heading entitled, Central Canada. Sorry for the mixup. I never voted for this duplication of government bureacuracies over ten large provincial boundaries and territories. Did the bastards annex Saskatoon when I wasn't looking? It figures.

No Fidel, but the point is you should already know where I live,  so why did you even ask me that question?

Yes this thread is primarily about the Catholic school system in Ontario, and I'd venture to say I have stayed a bit closer to the topic than you have. But I'm perfectly justified in pointing out my experience with that same system here.

 

6079_Smith_W

I think I just said, Fidel. If they wind up getting their funding yanked (and there are recent polls that seem to show the public is leaning that way) it will be no one's fault but their own for being such arrogant, uncompromising, homophobic boneheads.

Their stand on the gay-straight alliance issue says to me they put their dogma far ahead of the interests of the child.

After all, if they are accomodating enough to make allowances for other students who aren't expected to conform with Catholic belief (for religious reasons), why can't they do the same for LGBT students, and acknowledge them by name?

That straightforward enough for you?

 

Fidel

Alright then, it's settled. And if you ever want to discuss Catholic school funding in Ontario, just let us know.

Fidel

6079_Smith_W wrote:
Their stand on the gay-straight alliance issue says to me they put their dogma far ahead of the interests of the child.

I can say with certainty that not all Catholic teachers are against gay-straight alliances. Not all Catholics are unthinking drones controlled by the Vatican. It's been debated, and all Catholic teachers must abide by the laws of Ontario.

6079_Smith_W

Who cares?

What actually matters is that the school board in question isn't made of quite the same stuff as the noble teachers you are talking about.

So you expect the public to support a system in which progressive teachers have to pay lip service to their beliefs, your rate-payers don't have to take any responsibility for who they voted in, and any good work that doesn't pass church dogma can only get done under a brown paper wrapping.

Sounds to me like enabling a dysfunctional system, and helping it to not recognize that it has to change. How about instead  your members see the writing on the wall and realize that if they want to oppress and exclude they can pay for it themselves?

 

janfromthebruce

Fidel wrote:
About a third of the education budget, ~$24 billion, goes to separate schools. And about 23% of electors direct their education taxes to separate schools. Are you one of the 23% directing your education taxes to separate schools?

Nobody directs their "education taxes" municipally since direct taxation at the municipal was removed in 1997 - Mike Harris circa education reform.

All the collected money is sent to central Ontario, and through a faulty funding formula, it is redirected to school boards. Hence, why since 1997, Separate schools get more money per student than public school students. Thus direct taxation was removed and boards depend on the Ontario govt for all their money (well there are some fee paying students but that's small). So 23% identify as separate school supporters, and get more money per student than public school students - that sure isn't fair.

 

onlinediscountanvils

quizzical wrote:
the peoples of Turtle Island are not the primitive savages white people were taught they were.

Most definitely.

It's not that I think FN spiritual beliefs aren't "advanced and complex", or that the first peoples of Turtle Island are/were "primitive savages". That couldn't be further from what I think. I just don't know how one can begin to compare and categorize some spiritual beliefs systems as more advanced and complex than others. I think every set of spiritual beliefs that I've ever come across could accurately be described as "advanced and complex", so to single out indigenous beliefs as somehow exceptional struck me as the type of romanticisation that most of the FN people that I know find grating.

Fidel

janfromthebruce wrote:

Fidel wrote:
About a third of the education budget, ~$24 billion, goes to separate schools. And about 23% of electors direct their education taxes to separate schools. Are you one of the 23% directing your education taxes to separate schools?

Nobody directs their "education taxes" municipally since direct taxation at the municipal was removed in 1997 - Mike Harris circa education reform.

All the collected money is sent to central Ontario, and through a faulty funding formula, it is redirected to school boards. Hence, why since 1997, Separate schools get more money per student than public school students. Thus direct taxation was removed and boards depend on the Ontario govt for all their money (well there are some fee paying students but that's small). So 23% identify as separate school supporters, and get more money per student than public school students - that sure isn't fair.

 

I don't like my tax dollars going to corporate welfare bums. Where can I file a protest?

Similarly, what do we think of special interest groups challenging the fairness of socialized medicine in Canada?

I think I will just continue voting NDP and hope for the best with our obsolete electoral system.

Neoliberals will always strive to defund public services and education. It is their purpose and reason for being, therefore I will never accept their arguments for balanced budgets at the expense of public services and infrastructure. The province is in debt to the hilt and falling apart as of years ago. And you know what? That's the plan!

No, ta.

quizzical

onlinediscountanvils wrote:
quizzical wrote:
the peoples of Turtle Island are not the primitive savages white people were taught they were.
Most definitely.

It's not that I think FN spiritual beliefs aren't "advanced and complex", or that the first peoples of Turtle Island are/were "primitive savages". That couldn't be further from what I think. I just don't know how one can begin to compare and categorize some spiritual beliefs systems as more advanced and complex than others. I think every set of spiritual beliefs that I've ever come across could accurately be described as "advanced and complex", so to single out indigenous beliefs as somehow exceptional struck me as the type of romanticisation that most of the FN people that I know find grating.

i don't think "christianity" as a spiritual belief is advanced or complex. i took it as a st8 compare by fidel. and  his admitting  his catholic church is far behind. ;) 

i look at spiritual 'beliefs"  pretty matter of factly and don't factor in 'others' wanting to romanticize millenia beyond christianity old spiritual knowlege.

Fidel

quizzical wrote:

i look at spiritual 'beliefs"  pretty matter of factly and don't factor in 'others' wanting to romanticize millenia beyond christianity old spiritual knowlege.

So what are you trying to say, that native sprituality is worthless and has no place in education just like Catholic education is worthless in your opinion? Speak up , and try not to mince words.

quizzical

i personally think spiritual education should'nt be in public schools other than information as part of socials. when rational thought is finished developing and a child is then an adult they can delve wherever they wanna.

if parents want to brainwash their children outside of school time then they can. my mom taught me comparative spiritual beliefs throughout my childhood. and provided educational resources for many. her belief is there is no ONE truth or way of the spirit and it's our own choice when we're an adult. she's pretty much all 'bout CHOICE though.

my dad's family (the white side) were devout catholics and i've seen the result of the brainwashing they all suffer from today. some still are. and as i said before here my FN grandma lives in Chetticamp and it's totally dominated by the catholic church. she's much less brainwashed than her children though. she's got no use for religion mainly 'cause she recognizes what it did to her Peoples and how it took her children away from her.

nothing good came from the catholic church to my family and it still isn't!!!!!!!

Fidel

quizzical wrote:

i personally think spiritual education should'nt be in public schools other than information as part of socials. when rational thought is finished developing and a child is then an adult they can delve wherever they wanna.

So for how long have you and the state known what's good for native people? Did you ask them? What did your FN Grandma say about it?

EJ Faries,2004(pdf) wrote:
I was raised in a residential school, a place where all was foreign – the language that we were forced to speak, the people who were raising us, the building that we lived in, and what we were learning in school. I never heard any mention of how my people had lived on this land since time immemorial, or how proud of a people we once were, or how spirituality had been the basis of our way of life. Everything in the residential school was foreign… (Aboriginal parent, interview, Timmins, Ontario, April 10 2004)

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