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Catholic school funding 5

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Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

6079_Smith_W wrote:

It may be that way for you. Quite another for someone who is just as committed to another belief system, or to the separation of church and secular things like education. In that sense, it is no more a "small part" than going with the flow to save his life would have been small for that great pillar of faith Thomas More.

Broten approves of Muslim prayer rooms in Catholic high school

Smith wrote:
If someone wants to have consensual sex with whomever or how many people  or as often as they please for whatever reason it is no one's business.

But it is our business as teachers. Teachers wear more hats than ever before. We are expected to be surrogate parents for 6 hours a day. We are expected to be police officers and social workers. And we are expected to prevent bullying and generally try to keep kids out of trouble including getting themselves pregnant during and after school hours if at all possible. Before the McGuilty government chose dictatorship I was spending a lot of hours after school trying to get kids more interested in building robots than smoking marijuana or doing B&E's. And we don't need children having babies before they are ready, sorry.


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

Re: the prayer room. That's a perfectly reasonable response to a reasonable need. Good on them. Too bad that it isn't as easy to  call a gay straight alliance what it actually is.

And speaking of which, no it isn't your job as a teacher to impose your morals if you think that extends to what you think the "real reason" for sex is. That's not for you to say, especially in an institution where the official line is very different if a student happens to be interested in someone of the same gender.

How and why to use a condom? That is appropriate. Advising students that they should be careful and protect themselves emotionally? Appropriate.

But presuming to tell anyone what the real purpose of sex is? Sorry, but that is for each person to determine for his or her self.

Geez... makes me wonder. What do you suppose the real reason for masturbation is?

 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Re: the prayer room. That's a perfectly reasonable response to a reasonable need. Good on them. Too bad that it isn't as easy to  call a gay straight alliance what it actually is.

And hardly the inflexible, dictatorial setup you imply it is. The Pinocchio dictatorship in Toronto should take notes. 

Smith wrote:
And speaking of which, no it isn't your job as a teacher to impose your morals if you think that extends to what you think the "real reason" for sex is. That's not for you to say, especially in an institution where the official line is very different if a student happens to be interested in someone of the same gender.

Sex-ed is part of the school curriculum in Ontario. I'm finding it difficult to keep up with how little you know about education in this province. 

And I was previously talking about children getting pregnant and not that which you are insinuating now - that I am a homophobe, or that I follow every Church doctrine as if a mindless robot. That is not true in the same way you've claimed that every Catholic school teacher in Ontario is rabidly against GSA. That is false, and Catholic teachers have debated this issue at-length with trustees and parents. Cathiolic teachers follow and obey the law except, perhaps, when a dictatorship in Toronto tries to force teachers to accept a wage freeze among other violations of collective bargaining rights.

When I attended separate school there was brief mention of sex being between a man and a woman. Nothing else was said about it, and we were not taught to stone gay people on-sight. I am unaware of any school in Ontario teaching hatred of gay people. Repeating that it is part of actual Catholic catechism in schools is false and misleading.


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

And if the question was whether you deserve a paycheque or not then I'd be out of line assuming you personally were a homophobe (and for the record, I don't).

But this is about the religious separate school system, and whether or not public funding should support the dogma, refusal to comply with recognition of human rights, and assumptions about moral authority inherent in that system. 

And if you mean to imply that most teachers are actually supportive of all orientations, reproductive choice, and other things that  run counter to official Catholic dogma, and this all comes down ignoring the actual rules and will of the church and school boards with a wink and a nod, then I have to ask what the real point is of having a separate system at all (or more accurately who it is that votes in these school boards that seem so out of touch with what you imply is actually going on).

But really, it's not for me to square that discrepancy; it is up to you and the Catholic community to do, while the choice is still in your hands.

 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

6079_Smith_W wrote:
But this is about the religious separate school system, and whether or not public funding should support the dogma, refusal to comply with recognition of human rights, and assumptions about moral authority inherent in that system.

No it's not about a refusal to comply. Catholic teachers respect and follow the law in Ontario including GSA.

Show us where a single teacher in Ontario has violated that law. 

And Catholic teachers are serious about ending bullying in schools. That is the reality in all schools today not just Catholic ones.

 


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

What a caricature of a "debate". Fidel opens multiple threads aimed, solely, at defending his beloved Catholic Church against charges of covering up sexual abuse of children, and at perpetuating its grovelling at the public trough to indoctrinate children in its anti-human and hateful creed - and progressive people take this seriously?

My suggestion is to allow Fidel to maintain his youthful nostalgia for his Church. He is entitled. But how in the hell can there be serious debate among progressive people about issues where history has already rendered its verdict?

 

 


Boom Boom
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Joined: Dec 29 2004

Yeah, that's how I feel about this whole bullshit thread and the ones previous to it. Taking up too much babble space.


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Unionist wrote:

What a caricature of a "debate". Fidel opens multiple threads aimed, solely, at defending his beloved Catholic Church against charges of covering up sexual abuse of children, and at perpetuating its grovelling at the public trough to indoctrinate children in its anti-human and hateful creed - and progressive people take this seriously?

I really am sorry that the only interest you have in discussing sexual abuse of children is when it involves Catholics. If we were to read the total collection of your thoughts on Catholicism jotted down for us here on babble over the years, one might come to the conclusion that All Catholics and only Catholics abuse children, and that is a warped perspective.

I've merely given you another opportunity to discuss the welfare of children in that thread about pedophiles describing the real situation, but it seems you are personally uninterested. 

You've been the author of dozens of threads on Catholicism, and we get it that you are obssessed with Catholicism and stereotyping all Catholics as child abusers and criminals in general. You've offended more than just me with your hateful diatribes.

We get it that you've been using babble to broadcast your daily hatreds of Catholics and intolerant points of view against Catholicism. 

We get it that you LOVE to HATE Catholics and everyone associated with Catholicism whether they have violated laws of the land or not. We understand that you fear and loathe Catholics.

Unionist wrote:
My suggestion is to allow Fidel to maintain his youthful nostalgia for his Church. He is entitled. But how in the hell can there be serious debate among progressive people about issues where history has already rendered its verdict?

You've proven before that you are by no means an authority on history and historical facts. You can't even get is straight about the history of the Avro Arrow and Diefenbaker's actual role in sending thousands of jobs and an entire aircraft industry to the States never mind feeble attempts to instruct us on the history of the Church. Youre nearly a laugh sometimes.


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

Fidel wrote:

 

We get it that you've been using babble to broadcast your daily hatreds of Catholics and intolerant points of view against Catholicism.

That charge is as defamatory and scandalous as those who attack criticism of Israel as being "anti-Semitic".

As a Jew, I have no qualms about exposing the crimes of Israel and the folly of the Jewish religion, its obscurantism, and the crimes which it helps justify. You will never see me attack Jews. On the contrary, any asshole that comes here doing so will here from me first, over the years.

Likewise with Catholics. It is pure and simple xenophobia and divisiveness and criminality to attack "Catholics" or to stereotype them. I will expose and condemn anyone who does so. But do you think I will go easy on the murderous crimes of the Church, or the anti-human cesspool that is Catholic doctrine?

If you don't get the distinction, Fidel, then you have no place in any progressive movement. I think you get the distinction. But to defend the fucking priests and the Church, just because of your own background, is a profound malaise which you will need to look in the face and deal with. As your brother and comrade, I wish you well in that journey. But please don't bullshit us. Please.

 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Boom Boom wrote:

Yeah, that's how I feel about this whole bullshit thread and the ones previous to it. Taking up too much babble space.

Do you mean all those dozens of other threads about Catholicism and related issues? My god how many of them are there? I've lost count.

Where is Count von Count when we really need him? AH!-AH!-AH! He looooves to count!


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

Unionist wrote:

My suggestion is to allow Fidel to maintain his youthful nostalgia for his Church. He is entitled. But how in the hell can there be serious debate among progressive people about issues where history has already rendered its verdict?

I take your point about the debate and Fidel's tactics, but I don't see how history has rendered its verdict. The question of separate schools, funding, and their stance on things like orientation and choice are all very real issues - if not for you and me, certainly for the kids who are in that system.

And as I said upthread, I experienced similar stuff in pubic school 30 years ago, and from what I read there are still plenty of public schools that have things like prayer and other religious observances.

And Fidel, sorry, but refusing to recognize that gay people exist - that is, to refuse to even have the name in the title of a club - is certainly a violation of the spirit if not the rule of recognizing human rights.

 

 


kropotkin1951
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Joined: Jun 6 2002

Fidel as a catholic school teacher has a monetary incentive for supporting the Church.  He doesn't want to discuss pedophilia in the Catholic Church because the magnitude of the liability that priests have caused puts many catholic school boards and parishes at risk of bankruptcy. The real victims according to Fidel are not the kids but the church institutions which can't survive the damages caused by the child molesters in the church elite.

All one has to do is look at the old school fascist that is in charge of the church and his career of chasing liberation theologists out of the church to know what the direction of this homophobic and women hating intuition really is.  Pope Rottweiler was elected by his peers so its not like he is an anomaly in his hateful views. 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Unionist wrote:
 But do you think I will go easy on the murderous crimes of the Church, or the anti-human cesspool that is Catholic doctrine?

I think it important to be aware of the crimes of the Church in history. I hate that they did nothing while millions of Jews were slaughtered by a fascist army. I hate that the Church said nothing while providing sanctuary for actual Nazi war criminals during and after the war. But I was somewhat uplifted when Pope John Paul II spoke to a crowd in Chile in 1988 and urged them to stand up to and oppose evil.

But I think it disingenous to try to connect a 14th century Catholic inquisition with Church sex abuse scandals today. These are historical truths, but so is the fact that thousands of Catholics have donated their time and efforts to charity, helping the poor and advocating for the poor around the world. 

Unionist wrote:
I think you get the distinction. But to defend the fucking priests and the Church, just because of your own background, is a profound malaise which you will need to look in the face and deal with. As your brother and comrade, I wish you well in that journey. But please don't bullshit us. Please.

Where have I said that guilty priests should be left alone as if they were so many thousands of Nazi war criminals living out the remainder of their natural lives in peace and prosperity in Canada, the U.S. and Britain? I have not nor would I ever. 

What I object to is the constant and pervasive anti-Catholic doctrine being broadcast daily here on babble. I am not a pedophile nor am I obssessed with what occurred in medieval times. They weren't very progressive times at all and totally undemocratic to say the least.  The Church is paying out millions to cover the crimes of priests who they failed to screen for pedophilia. The criminal science for investigation these offences and databases containing the names of known abusers just didn't exist for centuries until fairly recent times. But, yes, and then there were attempts to cover-up the abuse. This was the case with more institutions than just the Church as well. Human beings are fallible, and progress means that not only are we not ruled by kings annointed with power by Excalibur or an old Anglo-Saxon witan any longer, so, too, is criminal science and vetting processes being advanced. We will someday have fewer and fewer criminals sliding into positions of authority in society. And we will surely someday each of us be represented by a vote that is counted and not wasted by an obsolete electoral system invented in the 19th century.  

 


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

Jesus, Fidel. You think the Catholics get all or even most of it? Near as I can see the Evangelicals and other protestants get just as much if not more (Westboro Baptists, most recently, if I recall).

But it's hard to ignore the Big church which started it all, was the de facto government of Europe for half a millennium, and is still a powerful political machine and  the largest Christian Church in the world.

Seems to me we mention anti-Catholic discrimination when it is warranted too. As for calling things how they are, deal with it.

 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

6079_Smith_W wrote:
But it's hard to ignore the Big church which started it all, was the de facto government of Europe for half a millennium, and is still a powerful political machine and  the largest Christian Church in the world.

There was a power vaccuum left after the fall of a vicious and corrupt Roman empire. Priests and monks maintained the written word in some very dark times. We might even thank those who would later become Muslims for introducing paper-making technology to European traders for us being able to read books eventually.

And the Church was England's first social services believe it or not. That was ended by another vicious empire since mass murderer Henry VIII who went against the Church for opposing his intentions to be married to several women at a time.

 

Smith wrote:
Seems to me we mention anti-Catholic discrimination when it is warranted too. As for calling things how they are, deal with it.

Yes, let's see things how they really were. Let's dare each other to do just that.


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

The Church has always existed in spite of ruling vicious empires of the last two millenia. And a vicious empire rules much of the world today without need of any help from the Church. I think you are off the mark somewhat with respect to whose diktats we live are forced to live by. Loving one another is not the law today. We are not obligated to do unto the poor as we would ourselves as Jesus compelled us to for his sake. But we are still obligated to give to Caesar his due, and Jesus of Nazareth, founder of the Church, would be considered a dangerous subversive  even today.

Our good friend Noam Chomsky has said that the world is run according to mafia principles, and that "successful defiance" has to be punished, even where it damages business interests, as in the economic blockade of Cuba – in case "the contagion spreads". Small and relatively defenceless countries are openly threatened and attacked militarily as a show of force to would-be defiers of the modern day imperialist order. 

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Jesus, Fidel. You think the Catholics get all or even most of it? Near as I can see the Evangelicals and other protestants get just as much if not more (Westboro Baptists, most recently, if I recall).

But it's hard to ignore the Big church which started it all, was the de facto government of Europe for half a millennium, and is still a powerful political machine and  the largest Christian Church in the world.

Seems to me we mention anti-Catholic discrimination when it is warranted too. As for calling things how they are, deal with it.

 

Blessed be the truth-tellers, for they shall have all the ice cream they want. - Martin Espada, poet

And I know you all love ice cream.

Another favourite quote from Hollywood this time:

EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY! - coach Jackie Moon, Semi-Pro (2008)

Smith, Unionist and everyone, try harder to love the people in this world. And that is what I have learnt from babbling with all of the wonderful people here and especially moderators who have mostly good days.

We are all human beings and worthy of love. Every little thing just wants to be loved. Love is all we need.


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

In the first place Fidel, there is a big difference between the laity and the hierarchy of that church (of EVERY organization, actually) and some of those pushing hardest to change your church are those within it.

But that doesn't change the fact that you have people in charge denying and covering up crimes, blaming victims, and you have your head boss in this day and age being so territorial that he calls protestant faiths heresies and orthodox churches (some older than the catholic faith) aberrations. And you have school and hospital boards pulling shit like this despite the efforts of people like you.

And as you can see from the example I posted, there is a line, and if they go too far they will get these institutions taken away from them. They can't just set their religion above secular law with impunity.

Sorry, but it seems to me that stuff needs to be called out, and ultimately you should want it to be called out too, if you want your faith to survive. Because frankly all I see it doing is isolating them more and more from the rest of society

 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

The whole world is pregnant with revolution, Smith. The Obama admin has incarcerated more whistleblowers and tellers of truth than all previous U.S. governments combined. And to put things in perspective,  more African-Americans have been jailed in America than total ppl were imprisoned during the entire history of the Catholic inquisition. They are the most spied-on and most incarcerated citizens in world history, and we are led to believe that terrorists hate them(and us) "for our many freedoms."

We are lied to constantly, Winston Smith. We are not free. We might be freer than those subsisting in many of their capitalist third world colonies but not so in reality. 

What the western world needs now is glasnost and democratic renewal. Corruption is rampant in U.S. Government and financial sectors, and Canada lacks transparency and accountability in government for a long time running.

If people really want to fix things, we need to aim for the top of the power structure. The Church is nowhere near having real power today. You are trying to lead us down a dead end street to nothing productive. The world revolutions are not finished, and we refuse to be led down paths to a valley of steel where we will be sliced into lamb cutlets and hung on high hooks. Luck to you and yours, however, I will not be following you on your path to what I believe is a road to nowhere in particular.  To align yourself with neoliberals in calling for the defunding of education that works is to embark on a path to nowhere in particular. They will only shovel the savings to rich people who don't need it, and so therefore you are unwitting pawns for much who will always have more. I'm sorry but that is the probable end result of your concerted efforts to defund a separate school system in Ontario. Don't be fooled into thinking they want to save money so that it can be poured into improving public ed. Not when their long-term agenda is to dismantle public education in general and toss it to salivating market jackals waiting in the wings for a slice of the common good. With the way the rotten bastards operate today, it's better to leave that shingle nailed-up on the roof so to speak.

Viva la revolucion! 


Boom Boom
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Joined: Dec 29 2004

Fidel says "Viva la revolucion!" while at the same time defending Catholic schools.


NorthReport
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Joined: Jul 6 2008
The USA has a dismal public school system, and the main reason being is that so much money is siphoned off to non-public scools in the form of vouchers, tax-deductions, etc. What's not to understand that the Catholic school system will eventually do the same thing in Ontario.

Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Boom Boom wrote:

Fidel says "Viva la revolucion!" while at the same time defending Catholic schools.

I am saying let's not go down any neoliberal road to defunding any public spending on education whatosever.

And so now that I've put it that way, why are you people siding with the money managers and bean counters? They aren't fit to run the most of the country, and so never mind education.

I can smell neoliberal voodoo a mile away. You might not think it neoliberal voodoo at first glance, but it is.

It's a sad day when neofeudalists convince us on the left to try and make their own case for defunding education.  Sad day indeed.

First they came for spending on public ed, and I said nothing because I thought I had something in common with neofeudalists. And years later I find that I have no health care and can't afford to see a doctor because a relatiev handful few bean counters and financial managers made central planners said we couldn't afford it. Whoa is we.

The whole problem in Ontario is that the Pinocchio regime couldn't manage a lemonade stand if their lives depended on it. Pinocchio will be history next election anyway. Count on that.


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

Look Fidel, we have a separate, religious school system dragging its heels on recognition of LGBT students (and other issues), and the public getting rightly pissed off about it and questioning their taking funding while ignoring the need for reciprocal representation.

And you turn that into a complaint about public education funding? And rub it in by claiming that they get better results (not mentioning that they get to pick and choose who gets in the door).

And you have the gall to say the Catholic Church is "nowhere near having real power"?

Sorry but I call bullshit. This whole situation is the result of those in charge of that church taking that power and daring the public and government to hold them to account.

Turning an assault into a claim of being the victim of underfunding? Absolutely pitiful.

Our former PM and staunch Catholic Paul Martin gave an address to parliament about being guided by one's faith while maintaining the principle of respecting the minority. You might want to read it. He and his predecessor suffered a number of abuses  (including church authorities saying they should not be given communion) just for doing their jobs regarding that legislation.

http://www.yawningbread.org/apdx_2005/imp-176.htm


kropotkin1951
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Joined: Jun 6 2002

Without the Catholic church getting funding for its schools civilization as we know it will end. 

Well said Fidel.  Cool

Who would have thought that the last bastion between us and the hounds of globalization would be the Catholic church.  I am truly awed at your logic.


Boom Boom
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Joined: Dec 29 2004

Why is this thread still open? All I see are the same tired arguments from Fidel, and babblers who should know better (including me) responding to him.


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

Well in one sense it is true. There are certainly organizations within established churches, and even the catholic church that do good work on anti-poverty  anti-imperialism and other issues.

Oscar Romero is one name that springs to mind. And I think a Pew Forum poll from several years ago points out that the Catholic laity is actually more open-minded and progressive than most Protestants in the U.S.

That said, I agree with you on this point. I have heard that bullshit argument before about other churches, most recently the Russian Orthodox Church, as a bastion of reform

 

 


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

@ Boom Boom

Because my dear, censorship is a deplorable tool that should only be used with just cause, not just because a discussion is seen as distasteful or a waste of time (and it's not like there aren't plenty of those threads left unchallenged).


Boom Boom
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Joined: Dec 29 2004

I've flagged this thread, by the way. Not that I expect it'll do any good - just wanted to express my disgust with it.


Slumberjack
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Joined: Aug 8 2005

We can look to the example set by the Vatican in the case of Giordano Bruno, Dominican Friar, Astronomer and Philosopher, who was burned at the Stake in 1600 for saying that the Sun was a star, and that the other stars in the sky were likely Suns as well, to determine if the Catholic Church has any business at all with being funded by the public in a modern education system.  On the one hand, the more universally known Galileo Galilei was reassessed by the Church, and was later determined to have made significant contributions to Astronomy, using the rationale as the then Cardinal Ratzinger put it, by agreeing that a revision of Galileo's original verdict was now justified as a politically expedient gesture.  With the sad case of Giordano Bruno however, who's name is not as famous and well known to the world as Galileo, as late as the year 2000 the Vatican defended his inquisitors and executioners in a statement released on the 400th anniversary of his burning at the stake.


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

I don't believe the Catholic Church has ever "apologized" for the brutal murder of Giordano Bruno. But it would be wrong to blame the Church alone, as Engels noted in his Dialectics of Nature:

Quote:
Side by side with the great Italians from whom modern philosophy dates, it provided its martyrs for the stake and the prisons of the Inquisition. And it is characteristic that Protestants outdid Catholics in persecuting the free investigation of nature. Calvin had Servetus burnt at the stake when the latter was on the point of discovering the circulation of the blood, and indeed he kept him roasting alive during two hours; for the Inquisition at least it sufficed to have Giordano Bruno simply burnt alive.

See the mercy they showed? I guess that's what Fidel means when he says, "love is all you need". Except that Lennon imagined a world free from the barbarity of religion. So do I. So should we all.

 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

lol! Get rid of religion get rid of war and barbarity. What a laugh-riot you are today. That would be funny if it wasn't so naive and idiotic. 

Your problem today in the world is not religion. Religion makes zero profit from warfiteering. Religionists are the ones with backbones and making a stand against the neoliberal bullshit in the Middle East and Central Asia today. They don't want your phony freedoms, the ones you you've been propagandized into thinking you have. 

Noam Chomsky says to focus on crimes of the state not crimes of a 14th century Catholic inquisition or even what happened 40 years ago. Leveraging sex abuse victims of 40 years ago to make a feeble case for defunding public education today is just idiot logic. Your arguments for neoliberal defunding of education become dumber by the minute. 

Your problem, if you want to be truthful with yourselves,  is that you are bigoted and intolerant of Catholics. My father went overseas in 1939 to stop the fascist bigots from globalizing their bigotry and intolerance. 

Just say no to neofascism and crimes of the state,  bigotry, hatred and intolerance, and the world will do just fine without defunding education to free-up more public money to pay to the corporate welfare bums and the rich who've become dependent on taxpayer-funded welfare programs for those who don't need them.


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