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Catholic school funding 5

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6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

Meh.

I can't say as I agree with you Unionist, neither in the morality, nor in the practicality of getting rid of non-rational belief. It ain't gonna happen.

Frankly that is the biggest paradox about the reasoning of anti-religious so-called rationalists. Really, they deny reality just as much as some of the religious people they call down.

Me, I'd be satisfied with holding them to a reasonable degree of respect for the secular nature of society.

 

 

 


Slumberjack
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Joined: Aug 8 2005

So..in order to be properly considered as a rational realist, one must dabble in the irrational, or at least acquiesce to it?


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Slumberjack wrote:

So..in order to be properly considered as a rational realist, one must dabble in the irrational, or at least acquiesce to it?

It is irrational to believe you can disprove the existence of a God, Allah or even the spaghetti monster. Actual scientists know that is a fool's errand.

Science is not in the business of proving the unprovable, so you'll just have to ponder the irrational by yourself I'm afraid.


oldgoat
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Joined: Jul 27 2001

Regarding a reference to a flagged thread, (post 148 I think)  you're right, it probably won't do much good.  No one is being insulted beyond the usual background level that keeps things spicy around here.  I'm not aware of anyone who's contavening policy.  Can't say I uniformly agree with Fidel point for point, and have sometimes found his paths of logic to stray through the eccentric, but that's not a quality I've ever really faulted. Keeps the world interesting IMO.  No law that says you have to engage him or that he has to engage you.  Let's keep this on a higher plane.  Having said all that, I didn't read the whole thread, and I stop moderating tomorrow, so I'm unlikely to do so.

Have a pleasant afternoon.

 


kropotkin1951
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Joined: Jun 6 2002

It is also irrational to think that you can prove the existence of any god or goddess including the nasty father figure that people worship in Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Also don't defund catholic schools because all those catholic teachers would then have to compete for jobs without their religion giving them a leg up over other qualified applicants who do not believe in the unprovable.


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

kropotkin1951 wrote:

It is also irrational to think that you can prove the existence of any god or goddess including the nasty father figure that people worship in Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

That's exactly right, and I didn't even realize that I made such a claim. We won't be sliding just anything past you. Not today nor even in the fullness of time. 

Quote:
Also don't defund catholic schools because all those catholic teachers would then have to compete for jobs without their religion giving them a leg up over other qualified applicants who do not believe in the unprovable.

Nepotism and cronyism exist in your precious publicly funded secular education system the same. There has to be some reason why the crooked Catholic system produces better academic results for students. Pinocchio has shirked very many colonial administrative duties including fixing the crooked setup in Toronto.

 


KeyStone
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Joined: Apr 23 2008

I think that the future of Ontario will consist of a religious school system, and a secular school system.I think the Catholic school system needs to be opened up to all people of faiths (at least the major ones), and the curriculum changed accordingly.

Muslims, Jews and Christiians have much more in common with eachother than with atheists. Spend some time in former communist countries where religion used to be outlawed, and you'll see that.

Atheism is a religion, just as much as any of these other belief systems, and the public school system seems to have atheism as their forced religion. The fact that such an uproar was made because Muslim students wanted to pray in the cafeteria on Fridays was outrageous.

There's too many people who say they respect the right of religion, but deep down they feel it's all a bunch of nonsense, but will tolerate it just so long as it doesn't conflict with any other right or value in the slightest.

NDP aren't going to pick up a lot of supporters by advocating the end of Catholic schools, but they will make 30% of Ontarians never vote for them again. So far, they have managed to keep their lack of respect for religious beliefs out of any official statements.


KeyStone
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I think that the future of Ontario will consist of a religious school system, and a secular school system.I think the Catholic school system needs to be opened up to all people of faiths (at least the major ones), and the curriculum changed accordingly.

Muslims, Jews and Christiians have much more in common with eachother than with atheists. Spend some time in former communist countries where religion used to be outlawed, and you'll see that.

Atheism is a religion, just as much as any of these other belief systems, and the public school system seems to have atheism as their forced religion. The fact that such an uproar was made because Muslim students wanted to pray in the cafeteria on Fridays was outrageous.

There's too many people who say they respect the right of religion, but deep down they feel it's all a bunch of nonsense, but will tolerate it just so long as it doesn't conflict with any other right or value in the slightest.

NDP aren't going to pick up a lot of supporters by advocating the end of Catholic schools, but they will make 30% of Ontarians never vote for them again. So far, they have managed to keep their lack of respect for religious beliefs out of any official statements.


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

Slumberjack wrote:

So..in order to be properly considered as a rational realist, one must dabble in the irrational, or at least acquiesce to it?

Depends what you mean. Personally, I go by the wealth of research which has found that much of the way our minds work is non-rational (which is not the same thing as is implied by the derogatory term irrational).

And then there is the fact that a good deal (the most essential stuff, IMO) of what is considered spirituality is completely realistic and rational.

But be my guest. Knock yourself out trying to wipe all traces of non-rational brain activity from the face of the earth. Just be careful to not fall asleep and wind up in dreamland while you're at it.

As an old Catholic apoligist once said: "Fairy tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten."

 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

In order to disprove the existence of God one would have to know the universe, or perhaps understand parallel universes as mainstream theoretical physicists suggest is reality today.

We are a long way away from knowing the universe(s). Lord Rees says that our brains may not be evolved enough to know the universe. That might also be true for the existence of God or even god-like beings. To deny the possible existence of god-like civilizations, that is civilizations far more technically advanced than our own, would be to deny that Darwinian evolution is at work everywhere else in the universe where life proliferates. And scientists know now that cellular life proliferates in the least likely environments previously thought to be incompatible with life.  

Therefore, as the scientists Kardashev and Dyson described it, ourselves might only be a few thousand years away from attaining god-like technical capabilities. That is if, as Sagan reminded us, we don't destroy ourselves in a fit of passion before then at which point it won't matter a great deal to us whether God or god-like evolution is possible. The atheists essentially tell us that it isn't, and it's a very unscientific point of view as far as scientific possibilists like myself are concerned.


Slumberjack
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oldgoat wrote:
.....stray through the eccentric, but that's not a quality I've ever really faulted. 

Well thank god for that.


kropotkin1951
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Joined: Jun 6 2002

It is possible that "the Prophets" who live in the Celestial Temple and control the worm hole to another galaxy are not gods but merely an alien race.  All things are possible until you open the box and find that the cat has been dead for ages and stinks to High Heaven.


kropotkin1951
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Joined: Jun 6 2002

Who can fix the formatting problem in this thread? 

 


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Meh.

I can't say as I agree with you Unionist, neither in the morality, nor in the practicality of getting rid of non-rational belief. It ain't gonna happen.

You habitually misunderstand what others say.

I said we should rid the world of "the barbarity of religion". Wouldn't you agree with that? That means burning scientists alive. It means a Nazi youth Pope telling Africans not to use condoms. It means humiliating, molesting, and demonizing queers, children, women, heretics, human beings in general.

We should excise that from our world.

As for some poor soul believing in magic? Doesn't bother me one bit. Until they try to impose that brain disorder on others. Then they join Category A above.

People are entitled to their faith. They are not entitled to their deeds. And Catholics are not entitled to indoctrinate their kids at the public trough.

 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Joe Goebbels will never be dead as long as we have you people broadcasting your personal hatreds on the internet. Meanwhile war criminals are murdering people of faith in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Africa and Syria where so-called secular governments are aiding and abetting "Al-Qa'eda" which is a scare word for their expendable anti-communist jihadi leftovers from a cold war era.


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Who can fix the formatting problem in this thread? 

 

Fidel could easily do so, by editing out the extra [ /quote ] he inserted in post #133. But he's busy right now defending the Faith, so I wouldn't bother him if I were you.

 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Unionist wrote:

easily do so, by editing out the extra [ /quote ] he inserted in post #133. But he's busy right now defending the Faith, so I wouldn't bother him if I were you.

And you will probably avoid even trying to defend secular governments in this case:

US Recognizes Unelected Al Qaeda Terrorists as Syrian “Representatives” US admits Al Qaeda “amongst” Syrian rebels, recognizes them as the “legitimate representative of the Syrian people.”

Your secular governments are the biggest terrorist organizations on the planet and always have been.

And could someone please remind us of how the Church placed Galileo under house/palace arrest all those centuries ago? Because, and you know, everything and anything is relevant when making a case against Catholic education today.

Never forget.


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

Unionist wrote:

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Meh.

I can't say as I agree with you Unionist, neither in the morality, nor in the practicality of getting rid of non-rational belief. It ain't gonna happen.

You habitually misunderstand what others say.

I said we should rid the world of "the barbarity of religion".

Thanks for clarifying. I thought you might have been refering to Lennon's song in which he actually imagines a world without any religion at all.

Look Unionist, I know you and I are pretty much in agreement on the issue of separate school funding and on the evils of superstition and organized religion.

I also know you and I have hashed out our respective positions on faith and religion, on which we don't entirely agree.

So while I'll allow you the technicality, I don't think my comment was off the mark.

(edit)

though speaking of technicalities, I think we may just have had a double godwin. That IS grounds for default and closure in some circles.

 

 


Slumberjack
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Joined: Aug 8 2005

Fidel wrote:
And could someone please remind us of how the Church placed Galileo under house/palace arrest all those centuries ago? Because, and you know, everything and anything is relevant when making a case against Catholic education today.

Apparently by 1992, a Vatican study of the Galileo tribunal produced a statement of regret about the way the Church handled the case.  By the year 2000, the Vatican's Cardinal Sodano concluded that although Giordano Bruno's death was regrettable, the inquisitors 'had the desire to serve freedom and promote the common good and did everything possible to save his life.'  Well, short of torture and burning him alive that is.  One might surmise that here in 2013 standards are a little different, but they're teaching about the 'sin' of condoms and abortion in Africa and elsewhere these days, at the cost of who knows how many lives.


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005
Eppur si muove.

Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Slumberjack wrote:

Fidel wrote:
And could someone please remind us of how the Church placed Galileo under house/palace arrest all those centuries ago? Because, and you know, everything and anything is relevant when making a case against Catholic education today.

Apparently by 1992, a Vatican study of the Galileo tribunal produced a statement of regret about the way the Church handled the case.  By the year 2000, the Vatican's Cardinal Sodano concluded that although Giordano Bruno's death was regrettable, the inquisitors 'had the desire to serve freedom and promote the common good and did everything possible to save his life.'  Well, short of torture and burning him alive that is.  One might surmise that here in 2013 standards are a little different, but they're teaching about the 'sin' of condoms and abortion in Africa and elsewhere these days, at the cost of who knows how many lives.

Sorry but they are your secularist gladio governments and their proxy armies in Rwanda and Uganda directly responsible for the slaughter, mutilations, rape and mass murder of 5-6 million human beings in the Congo since the 1990's. 

And I am sorry to have to inform you that what happened centuries ago in Europe has absolutely nothing to do with bigotry and intolerance toward Catholics in modern day Ontario.

VATICAN NEWS: Foreign Fighters, Mercenaries, Terrorists, behind Syria Massacre "The desolation of Homs and the war of information ": the Words of a Greek-Catholic Bishop"

The world would be a far better place without state-sponsored terrorism and secularists' financial and military support for the spread and proliferation of right wing fundamentalist-mercenary wackos around the world.

Sorry to have to catapult you into future-present like this. We know that henry VIII and the rest of his insane inbred-blueblood relatives were da bomb in old Europe, but times have changed since money chased power. Today it's totally different - today power chases money under the neofeudal order of things.  And youre worried about a few Catholic kids doing well academically? Give us a break! 


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

Bruno went to the stake, in part, for the same point - his support of Copernicus's findings - before Galileo's trial. 

The odd thing is, of course, is it wasn't biblical science at all, but rather the most popular Greek theory, which the church adopted because it seemed to match their creation story.

Of the two I'd say Bruno got more satisfaction because he had no illusions as to where he stood in challenging the authority of the Church.

Also, he got that great sculpture of him with his back turned against the Vatican.

 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Fact check: Your secularist-imperialist governments in America have imprisoned more black people than there were total people jailed during the history of the Catholic inquisition. 

But the bigots are uninterested in recent history. Which makes me believe that the bigots, pro-imperialists and closet Orangemen are merely obssessed with broadcasting their usual daily hatreds on babble.


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

Fidel wrote:

And youre worried about a few Catholic kids doing well academically? Give us a break! 

Never mind that that is a jaw-dropping comment, whose interests do you think are most important here - the school system or those children?


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Fidel wrote:

And youre worried about a few Catholic kids doing well academically? Give us a break! 

Never mind that that is a jaw-dropping comment, whose interests do you think are most important here - the school system or those children?

Someone up there said money is not an issue,  it's equality. Well, which is it?

Your money arguments stink, and all that's left now is for you to explain why your calls for defunding public education are eerily similar to neoliberal ideology dressed-up as talk about progressiveness in education.

What do you think neoliberals would do with the money saved by defunding separate schools? Re-invest in and strengthen public secular education?

Give it to the poor and needy?

How bout we just all work together to defund and disemploy the bastards in government who couldn't run a lemonade stand properly if their lives depended on it? Ya?


janfromthebruce
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Joined: Apr 24 2007

Keystone, made a suggestion that the public school system was a "secular" system or athiest system. It is not. Secular just means that any student of any faith or non faith has the state "right" to an education and may not be refused admission. Secular is not absense of religion in this regard but "inclusive" to all.

As stated previously, the public school system provides curriculum for providing information on all religions where no relgious beliefs are given primacy or top billing. Thus all faiths are respected and discussed enclusively.

 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Jan, there is an example posted above of a Catholic schoolboard in Ontario providing a prayer room for Muslim students. I realize that's a little more than providing information on other faiths.

But do secular schools provide prayer rooms for Muslims in respecting students of that faith? I'd be somewhat surprised if there isn't at least one example similarly.


janfromthebruce
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Joined: Apr 24 2007

yes, Fidel they do so. Last year, there was quite a bit in the press about Toronto DSB providing cafe space for prayer rooms for children of the Muslim faith. Some people disagreed with that accomodation especially as children ended up being segregated by gender - boys in the front and girls in the back.

Schools must provide religious accomodation and we do so including the public school system which is inclusive of all.


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

Thing is, I don't think the big problem is inclusion, but rather exclusion - as in virtual denial that gay people exist. If that is not correct then why not just call the group what it is?

And Fidel, I don't think anyone here is questioning you personally, so your position on homophobia isn't relevant. It's the school board and its discriminatory policy that is at issue here, and the fact that it is publicly funded without being entirely accountable.

 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

6079_Smith_W wrote:
And Fidel, I don't think anyone here is questioning you personally, so your position on homophobia isn't relevant. It's the school board and its discriminatory policy that is at issue here, and the fact that it is publicly funded without being entirely accountable.

If all separate schools were to provide prayer rooms for every other faith in a flexible manner tomorrow, would it change your opinion of separate schools? Or would the mission goal for dismantling the separate system still be in effect? 


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