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Catholic school funding 5

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6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

Fidel wrote:

If all separate schools were to provide prayer rooms for every other faith in a flexible manner tomorrow, would it change your opinion of separate schools? Or would the mission goal for dismantling the separate system still be in effect? 

'scuse me. Is this mike on?

I don't know Fidel, if I repeat myself again, a bit more loudly,  like this:

will you pay attention to the fact that I have said repeatedly that this isn't about inclusion of other faiths, but rather exclusion of LGBT people?

And as for your "Will you stop fucking goats now?" framing of the question, clearly you haven't been paying attention to my stated position on separate schools.

No, I don't in principle support public funding for separate schools, and I don't appreciate that more of my income tax goes to per capita Catholic school funding than it does to the public system and my own kids. But as I have already said, it is complicated, both by the historical background of the separate system, and the fact that what I see as important Native cultural and Cree, French and Ukrainian language training is under the Catholic system.

So until there is a better option I grit my teeth on that system's indoctrination when it comes to choice, orientation, sex, the role of women, religion, and science. But I do expect a bit of give and take, and when, in the face of a bullying epidemic that has kids killing themselves and others, this church of yours can't park its dogma enough to recognize that gay people exist, and yet still expect us to pay for their arrogance and hatred without complaint, I have a problem.

If this gets to the point of actually shutting down those schools, it won't be because of others' refusal to compromise, Fidel, but of those running your system. After all, church rules are church rules, but if your school boards can be all inclusive and respect other beliefs, they can also be inclusive enough to recognize that gay people exist.

 

 

 

 


janfromthebruce
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Joined: Apr 24 2007

Whether a school offers "prayer rooms" or not is not the main thing but whether the school and above it, the board actually professes an inclusive environment. So homophobia is real, banning books is real, and suggesting that other religions or non religions are less in the "eyes" of the catholic faith is wrong.

And why is exclusion okay at the elementary level, and privilege given to those staff who are catholic. That is so discrimatory.

Finally, an underlying principle of social democracy is equity and fairness, the opposite of "separate" school.


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

6079_Smith_W wrote:

No, I don't in principle support public funding for separate schools, and I don't appreciate that more of my income tax goes to per capita Catholic school funding than it does to the public system and my own kids.

About a third of the education budget, ~$24 billion, goes to separate schools. And about 23% of electors direct their education taxes to separate schools. Are you one of the 23% directing your education taxes to separate schools? 

Winston Smith wrote:
But as I have already said, it is complicated, both by the historical background of the separate system, and the fact that what I see as important Native cultural and Cree, French and Ukrainian language training is under the Catholic system.

So on the one hand you want to defund Catholic schools entirely, and it's because you want equity and fairness in education.

And then you mention the need to fund language training only for indigenous people and some other groups. Why only only money for language training? Apparently all of you, the Catholic Church and colonial-administrative governments past agree that there is no need for indigenous spirituality or religious studies in education. And that's because you know what's best for them without even consulting them. Never mind that traditional indigenous spiritual beliefs are, today, considered some of the most advanced and complex spiritual belief systems in the world. You tend to side with the 16th and 17th century Church and imperial order of the day, though, and make no mention of funding indigenous spiritual education.

Other rich countries are already encouraging indigenous language training in native schools as part of the regular curriculum. In some experiments in the U.S., overall academic results are better in those schools than for English/American language-only schools. Nothing doing in Canada, though. According to opinions in this and dozens of other threads on this third rail issue, all is well in Ontario except for that darn separate school funding. And now you tell us that you are being forced against your will to pay extra to Catholic schools.

It's an interesting point of view  to say the least.


onlinediscountanvils
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Joined: Jun 7 2012

Fidel wrote:
traditional indigenous spiritual beliefs are, today, considered some of the most advanced and complex spiritual belief systems in the world.

wtf?


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

I don't know where your numbers are from Fidel, but I live in Saskatchewan.

The breakdown here in Saskatoon is that property taxes pay about 48 percent of funding for public schools, only about 30 percent for the Catholic system.

There are other sources of funding, but basically provincial general revenue pays a larger portion of the Catholic system (over 60 percent) than it does the public system (under  50 percent).

But as I also said, it is complicated, and there are other things to be weighed against that imbalance.

I have no idea what you are getting at with the rest of your comment, and I can't see how it relates to any of my points.

 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

6079_Smith_W wrote:

I don't know where your numbers are from Fidel, but I live in Saskatchewan...

I have no idea what you are getting at with the rest of your comment, and I can't see how it relates to any of my points.

And I am in Ontario. That's in Central Canada, and I am posting in a forum under a heading entitled, Central Canada. Sorry for the mixup. I never voted for this duplication of government bureacuracies over ten large provincial boundaries and territories. Did the bastards annex Saskatoon when I wasn't looking? It figures.


quizzical
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Joined: Dec 8 2011

onlinediscountanvils wrote:
Fidel wrote:
traditional indigenous spiritual beliefs are, today, considered some of the most advanced and complex spiritual belief systems in the world.

wtf?

you think this comment is an error?  i only gotta  give 1 example 'mayan' to support it. but there're lots more.

archeology  and anthropology are slowly rebuildinhg "our" stolen past. the peoples of Turtle Island are not the primitive savages white people were taught they were.


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

No I just had no idea what you were asking me . And I still don't.


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

Fidel wrote:

And I am in Ontario. That's in Central Canada, and I am posting in a forum under a heading entitled, Central Canada. Sorry for the mixup. I never voted for this duplication of government bureacuracies over ten large provincial boundaries and territories. Did the bastards annex Saskatoon when I wasn't looking? It figures.

No Fidel, but the point is you should already know where I live,  so why did you even ask me that question?

Yes this thread is primarily about the Catholic school system in Ontario, and I'd venture to say I have stayed a bit closer to the topic than you have. But I'm perfectly justified in pointing out my experience with that same system here.

 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Alright then, it's settled. And if you ever want to discuss Catholic school funding in Ontario, just let us know.


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

I think I just said, Fidel. If they wind up getting their funding yanked (and there are recent polls that seem to show the public is leaning that way) it will be no one's fault but their own for being such arrogant, uncompromising, homophobic boneheads.

Their stand on the gay-straight alliance issue says to me they put their dogma far ahead of the interests of the child.

After all, if they are accomodating enough to make allowances for other students who aren't expected to conform with Catholic belief (for religious reasons), why can't they do the same for LGBT students, and acknowledge them by name?

That straightforward enough for you?

 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

6079_Smith_W wrote:
Their stand on the gay-straight alliance issue says to me they put their dogma far ahead of the interests of the child.

I can say with certainty that not all Catholic teachers are against gay-straight alliances. Not all Catholics are unthinking drones controlled by the Vatican. It's been debated, and all Catholic teachers must abide by the laws of Ontario.


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

Who cares?

What actually matters is that the school board in question isn't made of quite the same stuff as the noble teachers you are talking about.

So you expect the public to support a system in which progressive teachers have to pay lip service to their beliefs, your rate-payers don't have to take any responsibility for who they voted in, and any good work that doesn't pass church dogma can only get done under a brown paper wrapping.

Sounds to me like enabling a dysfunctional system, and helping it to not recognize that it has to change. How about instead  your members see the writing on the wall and realize that if they want to oppress and exclude they can pay for it themselves?

 


janfromthebruce
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Joined: Apr 24 2007

Fidel wrote:
About a third of the education budget, ~$24 billion, goes to separate schools. And about 23% of electors direct their education taxes to separate schools. Are you one of the 23% directing your education taxes to separate schools?

Nobody directs their "education taxes" municipally since direct taxation at the municipal was removed in 1997 - Mike Harris circa education reform.

All the collected money is sent to central Ontario, and through a faulty funding formula, it is redirected to school boards. Hence, why since 1997, Separate schools get more money per student than public school students. Thus direct taxation was removed and boards depend on the Ontario govt for all their money (well there are some fee paying students but that's small). So 23% identify as separate school supporters, and get more money per student than public school students - that sure isn't fair.

 


onlinediscountanvils
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Joined: Jun 7 2012

quizzical wrote:
the peoples of Turtle Island are not the primitive savages white people were taught they were.

Most definitely.

It's not that I think FN spiritual beliefs aren't "advanced and complex", or that the first peoples of Turtle Island are/were "primitive savages". That couldn't be further from what I think. I just don't know how one can begin to compare and categorize some spiritual beliefs systems as more advanced and complex than others. I think every set of spiritual beliefs that I've ever come across could accurately be described as "advanced and complex", so to single out indigenous beliefs as somehow exceptional struck me as the type of romanticisation that most of the FN people that I know find grating.


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

janfromthebruce wrote:

Fidel wrote:
About a third of the education budget, ~$24 billion, goes to separate schools. And about 23% of electors direct their education taxes to separate schools. Are you one of the 23% directing your education taxes to separate schools?

Nobody directs their "education taxes" municipally since direct taxation at the municipal was removed in 1997 - Mike Harris circa education reform.

All the collected money is sent to central Ontario, and through a faulty funding formula, it is redirected to school boards. Hence, why since 1997, Separate schools get more money per student than public school students. Thus direct taxation was removed and boards depend on the Ontario govt for all their money (well there are some fee paying students but that's small). So 23% identify as separate school supporters, and get more money per student than public school students - that sure isn't fair.

 

I don't like my tax dollars going to corporate welfare bums. Where can I file a protest?

Similarly, what do we think of special interest groups challenging the fairness of socialized medicine in Canada?

I think I will just continue voting NDP and hope for the best with our obsolete electoral system.

Neoliberals will always strive to defund public services and education. It is their purpose and reason for being, therefore I will never accept their arguments for balanced budgets at the expense of public services and infrastructure. The province is in debt to the hilt and falling apart as of years ago. And you know what? That's the plan!

No, ta.


quizzical
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Joined: Dec 8 2011

onlinediscountanvils wrote:
quizzical wrote:
the peoples of Turtle Island are not the primitive savages white people were taught they were.
Most definitely.

It's not that I think FN spiritual beliefs aren't "advanced and complex", or that the first peoples of Turtle Island are/were "primitive savages". That couldn't be further from what I think. I just don't know how one can begin to compare and categorize some spiritual beliefs systems as more advanced and complex than others. I think every set of spiritual beliefs that I've ever come across could accurately be described as "advanced and complex", so to single out indigenous beliefs as somehow exceptional struck me as the type of romanticisation that most of the FN people that I know find grating.

i don't think "christianity" as a spiritual belief is advanced or complex. i took it as a st8 compare by fidel. and  his admitting  his catholic church is far behind. ;) 

i look at spiritual 'beliefs"  pretty matter of factly and don't factor in 'others' wanting to romanticize millenia beyond christianity old spiritual knowlege.


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

quizzical wrote:

i look at spiritual 'beliefs"  pretty matter of factly and don't factor in 'others' wanting to romanticize millenia beyond christianity old spiritual knowlege.

So what are you trying to say, that native sprituality is worthless and has no place in education just like Catholic education is worthless in your opinion? Speak up , and try not to mince words.


quizzical
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Joined: Dec 8 2011

i personally think spiritual education should'nt be in public schools other than information as part of socials. when rational thought is finished developing and a child is then an adult they can delve wherever they wanna.

if parents want to brainwash their children outside of school time then they can. my mom taught me comparative spiritual beliefs throughout my childhood. and provided educational resources for many. her belief is there is no ONE truth or way of the spirit and it's our own choice when we're an adult. she's pretty much all 'bout CHOICE though.

my dad's family (the white side) were devout catholics and i've seen the result of the brainwashing they all suffer from today. some still are. and as i said before here my FN grandma lives in Chetticamp and it's totally dominated by the catholic church. she's much less brainwashed than her children though. she's got no use for religion mainly 'cause she recognizes what it did to her Peoples and how it took her children away from her.

nothing good came from the catholic church to my family and it still isn't!!!!!!!


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

quizzical wrote:

i personally think spiritual education should'nt be in public schools other than information as part of socials. when rational thought is finished developing and a child is then an adult they can delve wherever they wanna.

So for how long have you and the state known what's good for native people? Did you ask them? What did your FN Grandma say about it?

EJ Faries,2004(pdf) wrote:
I was raised in a residential school, a place where all was foreign – the language that we were forced to speak, the people who were raising us, the building that we lived in, and what we were learning in school. I never heard any mention of how my people had lived on this land since time immemorial, or how proud of a people we once were, or how spirituality had been the basis of our way of life. Everything in the residential school was foreign… (Aboriginal parent, interview, Timmins, Ontario, April 10 2004)


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

What are you trying to say with that quote, Fidel? You know that those church-run concentration camps were never intended to teach spirituality and culture, but to suppress it. You are using that person's very honest words in a completely backwards way.

Kids in those institutions didn't get to hear about their culture because they were locked in and COULDN'T go home. It's not an argument for teaching religion in schools.

 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

6079_Smith_W wrote:

What are you trying to say with that quote, Fidel? You know that those church-run concentration camps were never intended to teach spirituality and culture, but to suppress it. You are using that person's very honest words in a completely backwards way.

Kids in those institutions didn't get to hear about their culture because they were locked in and COULDN'T go home. It's not an argument for teaching religion in schools.

As expected you missed the point entirely, and so do all those who instinctively know what's good for indigenous people in Canada today. And btw, a court decision in B.C. found the Church only 25% responsible for running a residential school some time ago. The court pinned 75 percent of blame on the state aka the colonial administrativeship of the day. Sorry to have to sully the political reputations of imperialists and our two stoogeaucratic old line parties in this way, but it's the naked truth.

quizzical said, in so many words, that native people don't need sprituality and especially not in native schools where teaching native languages should be the full extent of allowing indigenous people to recover their culture . I presume quizzical is all for the dominant white culture's language being taught as well, but don't quote me.

And so to summarize, that poster probably doesn't want their hard-earned tax dollars going to indigenous schools only to be wasted on teaching native spirituality, which was the basis for native culture in North America for millenia before white Europeans arrived on the scene. Do you agree or disagree with that POV, Winston Smith? Speak up or stand aside and give someone else a chance.


kropotkin1951
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Joined: Jun 6 2002

Fidel you are lecturing an aboriginal poster about native spirituality. Great whitesplaining!!

Tongue out


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Fidel you are lecturing an aboriginal poster about native spirituality. Great whitesplaining!!

Tongue out

And what did the native person from Timmins, Ontario say in the quote here? Or do the opinions of native people not matter to you, another white person on the scene and putting his two cents in?

Quizzical's grandmother is FN. That's all I know about the anonymous poster named quizzical who tells us that native people should have nothing to do with native spirituality and especially not taxpayer-funded native spirituality. Because if native spirituality shouldn't be funded, so shouldn't Catholic separate schools be funded by the public. Get the picture? And we'll all be speaking British and American in no time flat.

 I love the money arguments from a no-soul capitalism point of view. It only makes sense to other neocolonialists and nouveau liberals alike.


kropotkin1951
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Joined: Jun 6 2002

Fidel your posting style is obnoxious.


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Admit it, you just don't appreciate what native people have to say in interviews published online here in Ontario.

Quote:
"You have noticed that everything an Indian does is in a circle, and that is because the Power of the World always works in circles, and everything tries to be round. In the old days, when we were a strong and happy people, all our power came to us from the sacred hoop of the nation andso long as the hoop was unbroken, the people flourished. The flowering tree was the living centreof the hoop and the circle of the four quarters nourished it. The East gave peace and light, the South gave warmth, The West gave rain and the North, with its cold and mighty wind gave strength and endurance. This knowledge came to us from the outer world with our religion. Everything the Power of the World does, is done in a circle. The sky is round and I have heard the earth is round like a ball and so are the stars. The Wind, in its greatest power whirls. Birds make their nests in circles, for theirs is the same religion as ours. The sun comes forth and goes down again in a circle. The moon does the same and both are round. Even the seasons form a great circle in their changing and always come back again to where they were. The life of man is a circle from childhood to childhood and so it is in everything where power moves. Our Teepees were round like the nests of birds and these were always set in a circle, the nation 's hoop, a nest of many nests where the Great Spirit meant for us to hatch our children. "

(Black Elk Speaks, pp. 198-200) Spiritual Advisor to the Oglala


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

Fidel wrote:

And so to summarize, that poster probably doesn't want their hard-earned tax dollars going to indigenous schools only to be wasted on teaching native spirituality, which was the basis for native culture in North America for millenia before white Europeans arrived on the scene. Do you agree or disagree with that POV, Winston Smith? Speak up or stand aside and give someone else a chance.

Evidently you know what she and I and everyone else here is thinking better than we know ourselves. Why don't you tell me whether I agree or disagree with your framed argument? You're going to anyway.

You're working your way towards clearing the room.

 

 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

.


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

6079_Smith_W wrote:
Evidently you know what she and I and everyone else here is thinking better than we know ourselves.

Why don't you tell me whether I agree or disagree with your framed argument? You're going to anyway.

You're working your way towards clearing the room.

Enough about me - let's talk about you. I know that I quoted EJ Faries' interview with an aboriginal person from Timmins, Ontario.

Continue ignoring that person's comments about native spirituality if you feel you need to, white man.


quizzical
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Joined: Dec 8 2011

ya...well...not going to bash my head against the wall with this. just a couple quick things then i think i'm done.

fidel seems to not realize the courts finally agreed that 600,000 Peoples like me ARE in fact First Nations. it's ok though he and others like him will get it someday.

i hope someday fidel you understand just a glimour 'bout FN's and our aspirituality instead of trying to use it for your own reasins.


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