Conservatives are unstoppable

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socialdemocracynow
Conservatives are unstoppable

There is no way for a progressive or liberal to win. May Rob Ford be a preview of what to expect in the next election.

bagkitty bagkitty's picture

I don't think that is what the Bolsheviks were referring to when they talked about "Revolutionary Defeatism".

Lord Palmerston

I get the feeling this thread is going to be closed.  I do think this is actually a good topic for discussion though...why is the Right making big gains all over the world?

Stargazer

My guess, it's because people are pissed off, feel powerless and angry but can't actually articulate exactly why and who they are angry with. Thus creeps like Ford, Beck and the rest of the lunatic fringe get a ton of ratings or votes. These "populist pundits" allow angry people to direct their anger at "them" (and them is almost always the less powerful).

There is no need to do your own research, or to even support a person who truly has your best interest at heart when you have angry white men yelling at you and telling you who you should be pissed of at. Intellectual laziness, apathy and a general state of perpetual fear. That shit works. Clearly.

Also, short attention spans, a lack of knowledge, lack of motivation to get involved - why bother when you can yell with the bigots from the sidelines? Who cares if deep down you know this isn't the right person to be onside with, all that matters is that finally someone is angry and hell yeah, I'm can be angry right alongside them. Punish these "elites". Most people couldn't care less if the angry white man is an elite, since he is their kind of elite.

I don't think this trend is going away any time soon. It pretty much came to a mass movement after 9/11 and still continues.

Just my opinion.

 

Education = bad. Downtown Toronto = Bad. Politicians = Liars. Scarborough = Gangster Land. Mostly angry white males, lashing out at whoever they can, and they are now given the green light to do just that with people like Ford and that other clown Rossi given so much air and news space. To a lot of people there is nothing else except endless news bites in the papers they read (National Post,The Sun) and they don't care to nor want to hear anything different. Makes them feel better to know they can blame all their problems on immigrants, women, and of course, the gheys.

 

 

 

 

Cueball Cueball's picture

Stargazer wrote:

My guess, it's because people are pissed off, feel powerless and angry but can't actually articulate exactly why and who they are angry with. Thus creeps like Ford, Beck and the rest of the lunatic fringe get a ton of ratings or votes. These "populist pundits" allow angry people to direct their anger at "them" (and them is almost always the less powerful).

There is no need to do your own research, or to even support a person who truly has your best interest at heart when you have angry white men yelling at you and telling you who you should be pissed of at. Intellectual laziness, apathy and a general state of perpetual fear. That shit works. Clearly.

Also, short attention spans, a lack of knowledge, lack of motivation to get involved - why bother when you can yell with the bigots from the sidelines? Who cares if deep down you know this isn't the right person to be onside with, all that matters is that finally someone is angry and hell yeah, I'm can be angry right alongside them. Punish these "elites". Most people couldn't care less if the angry white man is an elite, since he is their kind of elite.

I don't think this trend is going away any time soon. It pretty much came to a mass movement after 9/11 and still continues.

Just my opinion.

 

Education = bad. Downtown Toronto = Bad. Politicians = Liars. Scarborough = Gangster Land. Mostly angry white males, lashing out at whoever they can, and they are now given the green light to do just that with people like Ford and that other clown Rossi given so much air and news space. To a lot of people there is nothing else except endless news bites in the papers they read (National Post,The Sun) and they don't care to nor want to hear anything different. Makes them feel better to know they can blame all their problems on immigrants, women, and of course, the gheys.

Yes.

socialdemocracynow

"Liberal elites" don't exist. If a rich person votes for "liberals" then in a way, they're asking for more taxes.. That's not a very elitist move.

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

The problem with the left is that we're too rational, and too polite. We've been well-trained to never show anger, even when anger is the obvious and appropriate response.

For example, when confronted with a new poster whose very name claims allegiance to the left, but who from day one states his intent to vote for Rob Ford, for fuxsakes, we waste our time politely explaining reality to him, when we really should be telling him to FUCK RIGHT OFF ASSHOLE, because he's (a) most likely another useless troll, or (b) too fucking stupid to ever make a useful contribution around here.

But instead, we allow him to come back and get under our skins with another thread of bullshit about how the conservatives are unstoppable.

takeitslowly

this post will offend probably, but i want to just say it because theres no point of saying what everyone already talk about in their rabble babble speak

 

its easy to blame the white guys..

but alot of people are angry and they are disappointed and frustrated that the so called liberals  or progressive are not really stepping up their game, they are out of touch and they seem to also have a sense of entitlement (toronto city hall giving themselves a pay raise), unions that keep on making the same demands for their regular inflation adjusted yearly wage increase, why should those making 12 dollar an hour be expected to listen to the self righteous entitled 24 dollar an hour guys.

The progressive people and liberals love to talk about those living in absolute poverty, or those living in "priority neighborhoods" with high crime rates, but what about those who are barely surviving at their minimum wage non unionized jobs living in slowly deteriorating neighborhoods? Are we supposed to be told by the 24 dollar an hour people how we do not have enough empathy and we need to be in solidarity with them so we can make the world a better place for everyone and somehow in the end, we would all be part of a rainbow coalition filled with prosperity and peace?

yeah, we dont care and we are frustrated and we dont have hope anything will change for good reasons. And calling us names or lecturing us or telling us things could be worse if we dont vote for certain people is not going to empower us either.

 and another weakness of the left is that they generalize way too much (we all do once in a while), but just because an angry white guy identifies with Ford on certain issues, it doesn't mean they will vote for him. They might just stay out of the whole election, the feeling they get is apathy and their action is by not voting. One of the worst things an educated liberal can do is to stereotype the poor because of certain social cues or certain way of politically incorrect behaviour or thinking, poor alienated people don't want to be generalized and type casted by those who are preceived to be more educated and think they know better. It just leads to more feelings of powerlessness , bitterness and resentment.

As long as a significant amount of poor people are not motivated to join this movement to over come the economic inequality, the left will continue to be judged by many as a group run by white middle class liberals with a master degree in social work or political science, telling us how they believe they have the right to unions and yearly wage increases and that anyone who doesn't talk like them or think like them are really oppressed or just ignorant.

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

It's the capitalists, stupid!!!

 

P.S. _ i'm in complete agreement with LTJ and would like temporary mod powers to send conservative trolls and other misanthropic slime to a digital grave.

Cueball Cueball's picture

I see that about the "big unions" thing all the time. Thing is its bullshit. Unions consistently have aligned themselve for progressive social change. In fact the unions are probably the only force that is has any ability to confront corporate capital at all. The fact that this is in part motivated by self-interest is irrelevant. The unions are structures that were designed to act as such a deterent.

Nothing at all is preventing you from trying to unionize your place of work. Now you may get fired in the effort, this is true, but blaming unionized workers for the fact that corporate managers will fire your ass for trying to create a collective bargaining unit is not the fault of the ATU 113.

Bullgoose

"Things are mean and gettin' meaner."-Taj Mahal. These are fractious times, and the right wing opponent is very well trained, armed and financed.  But there is more to the story - North American socialism seems to have split from world socialists movements in some ways. North American socialism  has been engrossed in identity politics, a fairly rigid ideological framework, and an unwillingness to engage with opposing points of view. I have to agree with Camile Paglia that the left on this continent is committing intellectual suicide. Marxism is irrelevant in so many ways today as the world faces an ecological count-down. Surely some kind of fresh thinking is called for.  Back in the '60's I became enamoured   of Paul Kastner's outrageous REALIST magazine out of New York City. Realism (of many kinds) still seems like a hopeful starting point of re-invention  and rejuvenation.                

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

What's the difference between a conservative and a bucket of shit?

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

N.Beltov wrote:

What's the difference between a conservative and a bucket of shit?

The bucket

Unionist

N.Beltov wrote:

What's the difference between a conservative and a bucket of shit?

You can remove the shit from the bucket.

 

takeitslowly

Cueball wrote:

I see that about the "big unions" thing all the time. Thing is its bullshit. Unions consistently have aligned themselve for progressive social change. In fact the unions are probably the only force that is has any ability to confront corporate capital at all. The fact that this is in part motivated by self-interest is irrelevant. The unions are structures that were designed to act as such a deterent.

Nothing at all is preventing you from trying to unionize your place of work. Now you may get fired in the effort, this is true, but blaming unionized workers for the fact that corporate managers will fire your ass for trying to create a collective bargaining unit is not the fault of the ATU 113.

 

thanks for answeriing, bascially the unions do nothing for the poor in practical reality.  The union benefits those who are unionized, thats why most people stop caring about the sound good leftie rhetoric and pay attention to every little bonus and overtime payments that union members get.

In order to succeed, the labour movement needs to be made up of labour workers, not union members.

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

Hey! Welcome back.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

How can a person with the pseudonym of /' social democracy now' start a thread about how great conservatives are and how fucked up liberals are?

I smell a troll.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

ok, mr "now", I'll ask...since you seem to be begging the question...

What SHOULD progressives have done, according to you, that would have made conservatives "stoppable"?

You appear to believe that you're in possession of some singular cosmic wisdom on the matter so...teach us, O Enlightened Master, we who are unworthy to gaze upon your countenance...

Cueball Cueball's picture

takeitslowly wrote:

Cueball wrote:

I see that about the "big unions" thing all the time. Thing is its bullshit. Unions consistently have aligned themselve for progressive social change. In fact the unions are probably the only force that is has any ability to confront corporate capital at all. The fact that this is in part motivated by self-interest is irrelevant. The unions are structures that were designed to act as such a deterent.

Nothing at all is preventing you from trying to unionize your place of work. Now you may get fired in the effort, this is true, but blaming unionized workers for the fact that corporate managers will fire your ass for trying to create a collective bargaining unit is not the fault of the ATU 113.

 

thanks for answeriing, bascially the unions do nothing for the poor in practical reality.  The union benefits those who are unionized, thats why most people stop caring about the sound good leftie rhetoric and pay attention to every little bonus and overtime payments that union members get.

In order to succeed, the labour movement needs to be made up of labour workers, not union members.

And the main mode of building the labour movement for all labour is through union organizing. This is not just something that the unions do. The workers have to form unions. Its legal to do so. If you are interested call up a union that seems to be associated with kind of work that you are doing and ask them how to unionize your work place.

Furthermore the unions continue to be the main institutions that organize effectively to defend social safety net systems that support ALL workers, and all people, regardless if they are in a union or not. Indeed, even in the act of defending their jobs nurses support the health care system, simply by protecting the jobs of trained staff. The ministry of health could probably safe a whack load of money if they started replacing nursing staff with candy stripers and volunteers, but the nurses union prevents that from happening. They do this, simply by defending their jobs, and determining that trained people are in the right positions at the right time by asserting the clauses of their collective agreement that define job descriptions.

Ensuring that there is a qualified triage nurse at the emergency ward, as opposed to a "receptionist", is a good example of something that helps the poor directly. These small things are usually taken for granted in a hostile media environment that only ever talks about the "perks", "benefits" and allegedly high salaries of unionize workers.

In fact, most labour disputes are not about money at all. That is just the way that the media pitches it. In reality, most labour disputes are about working conditions and job descriptions and issues where employers are trying to finesse the collective agreement by subcontracting out to sub-par unskilled workers, not about increasing personal perks.

For example, the ETFO strongly advised the provincial government on the issue of the new "full day kindergarten" program in schools in Ontario. Pointing out that it would not be "full day kindergarten" unless a qualified teacher who had graduated from a university level course in pedagogy was on staff for the whole day. Having ECE level workers taking care of kids is not "Kindergarten", (teaching kids) but actually "day care" (baby sitting). Their point was that McGuinty was promoting the new "kindergarten" program as "full day teaching", when in fact they were offering a half day of kindergarten, and a half day of day care -- misrepresenting to the public what was being offered, as full day kindergarten.

This is not to say anything bad about ECE workers, but to say that if Dalton McGuinty is going to tell people he is offering "full day" Kindergarden, as opposed to day care, he should say so. Of course these little things are not the kind of things that are going to get a lot of coverage in the star.

And those are some examples of the good things that unions do just by "selfishly" defending their interests, and says nothing about the funding they give to charities, community groups, lobbying for higher safety standards, better health care and organizations such as the Good Green Jobs for All coalition, that is specifically aimed at bringing new unionized jobs to people who are not in the loop already, and bringing needed services to people in priority neighborhoods.

Wilf Day

Unionist wrote:
N.Beltov wrote:
What's the difference between a conservative and a bucket of shit?

You can remove the shit from the bucket.

Live Conservatives don't make good fertilizer.

Hey, welcome back, Unionist.

Fotheringay-Phipps

My old dad, who seems to have got wiser since departing this life, once said that people born in Toronto are like dead sparrows: you know they must be there, but you never see one. Cities like TO are not seething cauldrons of sophistication. They are rube magnets. Every day another influx of rubes lands in the city, be they from Renfrew or Rawalpindi. (Actually, the latter are likely to be better educated but less likely to vote.) Ford isn't particularly smart, but he's realized that Toronto is actually a very large small town, and he is basing his appeal on the most malignant small-town values. (Conversely, the Toronto Star has always treated the GTA as an idyllic small town, and frequently runs pieces about how a smart young feller up in Aurora has invented hisself a new kind of barber chair.) You can for a while appeal to cosmopolitan aspirations and win, but the bedrock values tend to be those of small-town hustlers on the make. Every great city seems condemned to spend time ruled by colourful buffoons who have grasped this truth: Mel Lastman in Toronto, Boris Johnson in London, Marion Berry in Washington, anybody you care to name in New York.

What can you do? Appeal to those Torstar Duckburg values: neighbourliness, civic pride, a sense of responsibility for the misfits who populate every small town. Avoid their evil twins: ratepayers' groupthink, boosterism, a sense of entitlement to persecute the different.

bagkitty bagkitty's picture

Wilf Day wrote:

Live Conservatives don't make good fertilizer.

Have you verified this by burying one under your rose bushes? It seems like an assertion that would be so very easy to test empirically. Maybe you could get a research grant from Agriculture Canada.Wink

Doug

Fotheringay-Phipps wrote:

My old dad, who seems to have got wiser since departing this life, once said that people born in Toronto are like dead sparrows: you know they must be there, but you never see one.

 

Yay, I'm a dead sparrow!

takeitslowly

Cueball, i understand your point.

It is important to defend the public health care system and unions do good job advocating that. I guess from what I am reading, a lot of people complain about the high salary of executives and hospital administrators, I can understand that complaints as well.

In terms of contracting out garbage workers and public transit workers, I see it as an opportunity for someone who doesn't have connection or the right social or educational background to be given a chance at doing the jobs they normally wouldn't get a chance to do because the unions only want all the jobs for their members.

I guess I see the appeal of outsourcing some types of public workers, because it opens up opportunities for others who might never otherwise get a shot at working in the public sector.

Cueball Cueball's picture

You mean shitty jobs for all as opposed to making the wealthy pay their fair of taxez? I gotcha! I mean $20 and hour is just way to fucking much for someone to stick their hand in stinking piles of rotting food all day long.

Peoples elitist attitude to manual labour is pretty ironic really. Professional's sitting at a desk like a teacher gets respect, but sticking your hands into a dirty toilet filled with shit and cleaning is a job "anyone can do"... maybe Asian "guest workers"? That is right we can bring the Third World here.

The fact is that outsourcing garbage work isn't actually going to create more jobs, since there is only so much garbage to pick up. All it means is that the people doing it will be paid less.

takeitslowly

i will work with shit for 20 dollar an hour! where and when? lol.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Do you think that outsourcing garbage collection is going to create more jobs? How? All it will do is reduce the cost. That doesn't mean they will employ more garbage collectors with the savings. No. That profit will go into the hands of executives running the business.

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Quote:
...what about those who are barely surviving at their minimum wage non unionized jobs living in slowly deteriorating neighborhoods? Are we supposed to be told by the 24 dollar an hour people how we do not have enough empathy and we need to be in solidarity with them so we can make the world a better place for everyone and somehow in the end, we would all be part of a rainbow coalition filled with prosperity and peace?

What's the alternative? Doing nothing seems to be the default, and that's exactly what the corporate overlords want you to do. That or to turn against yourself, spurred by the irrational hate spewed on their talkradio.

Imperfect as they are, those 'liberal progressives' (fuck it but the creep of yanqui propaganda-speak like that ticks me off) are the ones who hope you get yourself a union, who want your neighbourhood to stop deteriorating, and despite their irritating and condescending attitudes, are willing to work with you in solidarity.

edmundoconnor

Fotheringay-Phipps wrote:

My old dad, who seems to have got wiser since departing this life, once said that people born in Toronto are like dead sparrows: you know they must be there, but you never see one.

You can see plenty at the York Mills centre. Birds whack into the windows there all the time.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

I can't believe that union bashing rhetoric is gaining support.

Screw unions...Let's let the bosses control labour so we can all work shitty jobs 100 hrs/week without benefits,any chance of advancement or pay raise,no pension and a weekly salary of $50.

That way the corporate giants won't be so quick to outsource their jobs and offices.

Remember,endless tax cuts to the country's richest protects SMALL business.

I was watching an attack ad for the Massachusetts gubernatorial race aimed at Governor Patrick..Did you know he had the GALL to thank the labour unions who supported him in the last election?...Can you believe the union bosses are happy?

Oh yeah,the attack ads were from the Charlie Baker camp...A guy who brags of being a former CEO of some huge pharma corp and whose platform is all about saying 'no'.

And with that,the epitome of current Canadian politics is explained.

Christ,the Reformers managed to get a large portion of Canadians to toe the American NRA loon lobby line.

Somehow,unions are the bad guys and the people directly responsible for our pitiful economy,job market,taxes and high costs of living are hailed as our only hope in hell.

If you sing a song and saturate the air waves with it over and over again,it becomes catchy and popular.

Seems the Reform Party are becoming really good at it.

Bookish Agrarian

takeitslowly wrote:

i will work with shit for 20 dollar an hour! where and when? lol.

Anyone who makes this claim has never done that kind of work for any length of time, or much other heavy duty manual labour.  I see that kind of talk all the time and the talkers can hardly ever hack it or keep up.  I've done that job, for a good period of time, those people are worth a heck a lot more to the funcitioning of our society and our communities than most corner, or even middle of the floor, office dwellers- but some how these working stiffs (with stiff backs and joints after a lifetime of manual labour) are just a drag on the rest of us.

I get it too as a farmer.  "You're smart- what are you farming for surely you could make more money doing something else"  The disrespect this society shows towards people who work with their hands, backs and brains is extreme.

 

Oh and what Cueball said.

farnival

takeitslowly wrote:

i will work with shit for 20 dollar an hour! where and when? lol.

 

http://www.toronto.ca/employment/index.htm

mybabble

Ford's ranting and raving as he appeals to the anger most folks feel for the feds and province for not getting it right.  Is it an indication of support for the Conservatives notta but more Ford has ignited the anger and is promising to reduce the Chinks as he so eliquently put it out of TO says you sure know how to pick em and don't forget the lawsuits that will bleed the city dry after electing the biggest, racist, fool out there as the mayor of Canada's biggest city.

The economy will be the final decider if the Conservatives stay or go and since I trust my intuition 100% it is easy to say the Canadian economy in major cities is not going to be pretty but neither is the Federal election as the people's anger will be directed at the Conservatives.  It is why the Liberals lost their seat in NB but that will change back as your have federal liberals and provincial conservatives all in the same voter as it is not an indication of how people will vote Federally.

 

http://money.ca.msn.com/investing/news/business-news/article.aspx?cp-documentid=25748489

 

 

socialdemocracynow

I just hope that the conservatives never get their majority. Thank god for the bloc!

Cueball Cueball's picture

Strategic voting is the death of democracy. Indeed, years of it has gotten us to the point where the only choice left is them.

remind remind's picture

slight thread drift, in respect to the mention of the Bloc, but did anyone else watch Rick Mercer and 22 Minutes last night?

 

There were significant attacks upon the Bloc, and Quebec, in both programs.

 

Caissa

I remember the Bloc Blocker. Refresh my mind of the 22 minutes one.

remind remind's picture

Danny Williams learning French and the ensuing comment he made in French, and the inference that all NFLD's problems are Quebec's treatment of them, followed up by Quebec's trying to takeover NB Hydro.

 

Both programs really were cloaked government propaganda in my view against Quebec and Quebeckers.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

I don't mind the Quebec bashing..All it's going to acheive is stronger BQ support and guarantee the Harperites never achieve their majority.

\I also like it because it will renew interest in the sovereignty option.

Thank you Maclean's and thank you Rick Mercer.

NDPP

Tories Are Most in Tune with Families

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Tories+most+tune+with+families+Poll/36...

"Canadians believe the Conservative party is most in tune with the values and needs of today's families, according to the results of a poll conducted exclusively for Postmedia News and Global TV..."

autoworker autoworker's picture

Lord Palmerston wrote:

I get the feeling this thread is going to be closed.  I do think this is actually a good topic for discussion though...why is the Right making big gains all over the world.

Right Wing Populism (Peronism?) resonates with the working class, because working people don't care who runs the show as long as they have work, and the perception that the people in charge are somewhat competent.  They also tend to eschew intellectual analysis of their condition.  Their credo being: 'Get it done', rather than: 'What is to be done?".  Of course this attitude is reinforced by monied interests, as in the Koch Bros.' backing of the Tea Party, or Rupert Murdoch's Fox News, or Rush Limbaugh, Glen Beck, et al..

So, what is to be done?

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

NoDifferencePartyPooper wrote:

Tories Are Most in Tune with Families

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Tories+most+tune+with+families+Poll/36...

"Canadians believe the Conservative party is most in tune with the values and needs of today's families, according to the results of a poll conducted exclusively for Postmedia News and Global TV..."

I almost took this seriously until I realized that this was a poll conducted by Global TV