Heels Part 3

85 posts / 0 new
Last post
Malcolm Malcolm's picture
Heels Part 3

Continued from here.

Malcolm Malcolm's picture

* @Cueball - There is a difference between "tracking" the media messages of the right and attempting to address the right's framing of the issues.  This isn't complicated, really.  You also miss the oh so subtle distinction I have made between messages DURING an election campaign and messages OUTSIDE of an election campaign.  During a writ is too late to address and attempt to shift right wing framing.  I'd appreciate it if, in future, you addressed things I said instead of things you've imagined.

* @Catchfire - Sound fiscal management (which will normally include balanced budgets, though there may be exceptions) is not a "dehistoricized, uncontextualized aphorism."  It is a key element of effective and viable public policy.  Extensive deficits, on the other hand, are a means of transfering public wealth to corporations and to the wealthiest classes.  Historically, leftists have thought that transferring communal wealth to the wealthy wasn't the best public policy option.

* @Unionist - I agree with you that those are also negatives the ONDP needs to address.  However, those issues (or at least the first two) are important to a narrower segment of the electorate and would likely be better addressed by other communications tools.  On the third point, there's plenty of blame to go around on that failure, but when you get down to it, "not your grandfather's NDP" may be exactly the right message on that score.  I think this would be worth discussing in a thread that hasn't already dissolved into a flame war.

* @Stuart - I would appreciate it if you did not lie about what I have said in the future.  You repeatedly complain about people distorting your posts.  You have gone beyond distortion.  You have lied through your teeth.  I did NOT say that disagreeing with a woman is sexist.  I said that arrogantly and condescendingly lecturing a woman on sexism is sexist.  That's certainly the way your posts appeared to me.  Your entire approach to remind on this thread has stunk of the worst sort of sexism and condescension.  Clearly you learned political communications from Karl Rove and Glenn Beck.

* @Kloch or whoever - I have never doubted that the posters were real.  I just don't think they're very good or likely to be very effective.  That has nothing to do with over the top delusions that they are unarguably sexist.  (I can see the argument that they are.  I don't see that it is an indisputable point.)  It also has nothing to do with them representing an intent to "run from the right."  Frankly, it appears that unless a poster says "nationalize the commanding heights of the economy," the NDP haters on this board will revert to that tires old meme.

 

Kloch

Malcolm wrote:

* @Kloch or whoever - I have never doubted that the posters were real.  I just don't think they're very good or likely to be very effective.  That has nothing to do with over the top delusions that they are unarguably sexist.  (I can see the argument that they are.  I don't see that it is an indisputable point.)  It also has nothing to do with them representing an intent to "run from the right."  Frankly, it appears that unless a poster says "nationalize the commanding heights of the economy," the NDP haters on this board will revert to that tires old meme.

 

Malcolm (or whoever), what you and, I would argue, most of the defenders of these ads seems to be ignoring, is that the NDP does not have any public policies on anything.  Go to their website, I dare you to find it.  There are a bunch of angry statements denouncing whatever it is the Liberals have done wrong, but no specific policies, as voted on by the party.  The Liberals have them on their website, but we don't have any.  Unless my memory fails me, we haven't had any formal policies on how we would act if we were the government in a public domain for the better part of a decade.

What that means is that our election platform will consist largely of whatever messaging comes out of the NDP office at Queens Park and Provincial Office.  If the posters are indicative of what will be coming our way during the election campaign, we are going to get destroyed for reasons that Cueball has already articulated quite nicely and need to further explanation.  To say nothing of the fact that balancing the budget during a recession is actually really stupid economics.

And yes, for the 1,435,5644,657,345 time, I know that Tommy Douglas balanced budgets.  That's not why he was elected.  He was elected as part of a broader social movement to change the workings of the political economy of Saskatchewan.  The NDP in Ontario is not a part of any such movement. They are not the parliamentary arm of any working class political constituency.

Their identity, such as it is, is summed up in their posters.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Malcolm wrote:

* @Cueball - There is a difference between "tracking" the media messages of the right and attempting to address the right's framing of the issues.  This isn't complicated, really.  You also miss the oh so subtle distinction I have made between messages DURING an election campaign and messages OUTSIDE of an election campaign.  During a writ is too late to address and attempt to shift right wing framing.  I'd appreciate it if, in future, you addressed things I said instead of things you've imagined.

Nope. Talk of balanced budgets and "Trimming and Saving" is tracking conservative messaging. The idea that it is answering criticism mostly theoretical. The poster attacks "tax and spend" socialism, and highlights fiscal conservative values, by talk of trimming and saving. The balanced budget crap is just more of the same as we can get from Stephen Harper any day.

You allege that underneath all this there is another agenda. This may or may not be true. however,  trying to soft-pedal fiscal conservative ideas is not going to convince anyone of anything. Those who believe that the NDP stands for something else (both left and right) will be convinced that the NDP is selling snake oil, by pretending to be conservative, those who who don't, or who are not aware of the NDP will just take the slogans at face value.

Many new Canadians (many of those leftists and socialists of various stripes), and those not steeped in the political history of Canada, will have absolutely no idea that the NDP considers itself a party of the left. Where does that message come across?

Above all, all this does is reaffirm conservative messaging.

Malcolm Malcolm's picture

Which is why, Kloch (or at least part of why) I don;t think the posters are a particularly well executed means of doing what I'm deducing they are intended to do.  That said, the hygiene issue that consistently kills us - particularly with LIBERAL - NDP swing voters - is the perception that New Democrats couln't manage a lemonade stand.  And unfortunately, Liberal Bob managed to implant that especially deeply.  Between campaigns is when you try to shift thatb perception.

Cueball, you can repeat your calumny all you want, but fiscal prudence is a progressive principle.  You are the one repeating right wing memes here.

jrootham

I think Smitherman got trounced for being Smitherman.   AKA even less likable than Ford.

 

Kloch

Firstly, as I stipulated earlier, obsessing over balanced budgets in a economic downtown is not fiscal prudence.  It is a recipe for prolonging suffering, as a cursory study of history will reveal.  

Incidentally, how is the NDP going to balance the budget in the recession?  Are they going to find "inefficiencies", a la Rob Ford?  Privatization?  Outsourcing?  If you're spending more than you're making, your money has to come from somewhere.  I suppose they could raise taxes... but wait, didn't the poster say "More Clip and Save, than Tax and Spend"?

And so, we're right back where we started, doing what the NDP has been doing for the last 10 or so years: trying to find the magical, perfect sound byte that will somehow neutralize the mainstream media and lead us to electoral victory.  Except there isn't one.  If a person wants to get progressive policies enacted, it takes hard work, organizing and an understanding that changing the political discourse is more important than getting elected.  

Cueball Cueball's picture

Then why does your ad attack "tax and spend" socialism, a Ford slogan, and then go on to talk about budget "trimming", cutting "waste" being a mantra of the right?

Pathological obsession with "balanced budgets" in the context of today's political landscape is a direct reference to deficit cutting measures to be accomplished by cutting public service. Problem: Unbalanced budget. Solution: cuts to public service. The ad invoking "trimming and saving" in the context of the emphasis on fiscal "balanced budgets" is merely soft core reiteration of the Ford mantra.

On what platform did George Smitherman get trounced on in the last election? A soft core reiteration of fiscal conservative agenda, as we see presented in these ads.

No real left-wing fiscally "prudent" agenda, can go forward without making the mechanism that creates the deficit a target. These ads do no such thing.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Hear! hear!

Flush those lazy bastards out of the back rooms, and put them to work on the streets.

Bookish Agrarian

I take it no one bothered to read what actually happened at provincal council and the tiny, teeny role these posters actually played.

 

 

I thought not.

Sunday Hat

Ah yes. Working the streets hard like the brothers who spend 18 hours a day on rabble.

When was the last time you cats knocked on a door?

Please don't answer that. It's a rhetorical question.

Kloch

Sunday Hat wrote:

Ah yes. Working the streets hard like the brothers who spend 18 hours a day on rabble.

When was the last time you cats knocked on a door?

Please don't answer that. It's a rhetorical question.

Two months ago...

By the way, as a general rule, that kind of sophistry actually makes you look less clever than you think I think you are. 

Unionist

Sunday Hat wrote:

Ah yes. Working the streets hard like the brothers who spend 18 hours a day on rabble.

When was the last time you cats knocked on a door?

Please don't answer that. It's a rhetorical question.

You know what? you're not allowed to attack people here just because you don't like their ideas. You're supposed to counter with your own ideas and experience. And if you or anyone really doesn't like babble, , which you called [url=http://rabble.ca/babble/central-canada/ondp-can-balance-budget-heels#com..."ridiculous discussion boards like this one"[/url], no one is forcing you to post here (unless it's a school assignment or something...).

 

 

Cueball Cueball's picture

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

I take it no one bothered to read what actually happened at provincal council and the tiny, teeny role these posters actually played.

I thought not.

Ok. So what happened?

Michael Laxer Michael Laxer's picture

Sunday Hat wrote:

 

Ah yes. Working the streets hard like the brothers who spend 18 hours a day on rabble.

When was the last time you cats knocked on a door?

Please don't answer that. It's a rhetorical question.

 

Well I will answer it "cat".

 

It started 23 years ago when I was 17.

 

I knocked on doors in the 1988 federal election to oppose strategic voting.

 

Then in 1990 I was a paid organizer for the NDP and I worked in Parkdale when Bob Rae got elected.

 

In 1993 I was a paid organizer for David Miller when he ran.

 

In 1994 I worked on his campaign when he got elected.

 

In 1995 I was a paid organizer for the party in Parkdale.

 

In 1996 I worked on the Miller campaign in York South.

 

In 1997 I knocked on doors for Mel Watkins & others.

 

In 2000 I was a paid organizer for Ali Mallah while being a candidate in Scarborough.

 

In 2003 I was a candidate in Scarborough.

 

From 2003-2010 I canvassed for every candidate in Etobicoke Lakeshore and, at some points, was on the exec.

 

In 2010 I ran as a socialist in Etobicoke municipally.

 

From 1988-2005 I was on the exec of an NDP association somewhere without break, Sometimes two at a time. I donated thousands of dollars to the party and knocked on litterally thousands and thousands of doors.

 

And I think these posters are AWFUL.

 

So just who are you "cat"?

 

 

Cueball Cueball's picture

I put in about 120 hours on Joe Pantalone's campaign. How about you? I also know the Kloch, and many of the others who distinctly don't like these posters in this thread worked on local campaigns, and Joe's campaign as well.

But what can I say, these posters offer little more than rhetoric, and are wrong, and it is no surprise that they are being defended through rhetorical questions that are based in complete ignorance and stupidity. If your prescience in understanding what motivates Babblers is any indication, it is no surprise that you are so misguided as to think these posters might actually help you get elected to student council.

Kloch

Reminds me of an old Steven Wright joke: Have you ever asked a rhetorical question and gotten an answer?

Unionist

You can't have everything. Where would you put it?

 

Kloch

I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize.

Sunday Hat

You're right Unionist. I actually try not to post here. It's my mistake.

 

Unionist

It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to paint it.

Unionist

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

Kloch

A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking.

Cueball Cueball's picture

It's better to live on your feet than die on your knees.

Kloch

Always. Be. Closing.

Unionist

There is a thin line between fishing and standing on the shore looking like an idiot.

Cueball Cueball's picture

For Sale. Baby shoes. Never used.

Kloch

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

Cueball Cueball's picture

I can photshp that... wait.

Unionist

Yesterday I... no, that wasn't me.

Kloch

Humor is reason gone mad.

Unionist

We've got to stop thinking like this.

 

Unionist

Oh - and if Michael Laxer is still here - Happy Birthday!

 

Kloch

I have had a perfectly wonderful evening, but this wasn't it.

 

And on that note... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Michael Laxer Michael Laxer's picture

Thanks Unionist!

It has been a hell of a day! (or yesterday at this point I guess) Cupcakes at school for my darling 6 year old daughter who shares my birthday (talk about the ultimate BDay gift), and a good amount of Jim Beam for me!

And some fun politics.

All the best!

Cueball Cueball's picture

Kloch wrote:

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

 

Malcolm Malcolm's picture

I await the substance.  All I've seen so far is the meme that any concern with fiscal prudence makes you right wing.  Which is, of course, what the right wing want you to believe.  Sorry to see you've all been suckered.

Oh, and Cueball, they aren't "my" posters.  I've actually said I don't think they're very effective.  But don't let that get in the way of your pre-rehearsed ravings.  But your bizarre claim that concern with deficits makes one right wing merely proves that you've allowed yourself to become a tool of the right wing yourself, parrting their talking points.

Nice to see Kloch at least making a distinction about "in an economic downturn."  Economic downturns can be one of the occasions that justify temporary deficit financing.  That doesn't make concern about balancing the budget "right wing," as much as the simplistic argument being presented here would wish.

So, here we have some posters.  Some babblers want to argue that the posters aren't very good for a variety of reasons.  Other babblers prefer to make outrageous claims about how the poster "prove" their own pet theories.  Face it lads, you won;t be happy until the poster says: "Intends to nationalize everything and spend money like a drunken sailor."

Bookish Agrarian

Cueball wrote:

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

I take it no one bothered to read what actually happened at provincal council and the tiny, teeny role these posters actually played.

I thought not.

Ok. So what happened?

In the previous thread I posted at length the role these posters played in the provicial council meeting, which amounted to a big pretty much nothing.

Having been around even longer than Michael Laxer, but I guess I am not so preening trying to rationalize my connections, it is my experience that if these 4 lonely little posters were anything of import- say like the messaging for an election, or even pre-writ period- they would have been up on the screens, in boxes for us to take home to our riding, cover all available wall space and so on.  Instead as I said there were 4 posters in total mocking some of the mainstream views of the NDP.  There was a 5th in another location, but I don't recall it having type on it, but I didn't look at it closely.

When you worked on the Pantelone campaign I will be amazed if you never ran into those sorts of comments.  I have for the entire 32 years since I worked on my first NDP campaign.  If you actually talked to voters (and I only say that because I am not sure what you did on the campaign) at their doorstep these sorts of comments had to come up.  If they didn't than chalk it up to the difference between municipal and other levels of government.  Because in those other two levels those sorts of things come up hourly or better in canvassing.

As I said in that post if I had to guess I would guess they were one offs.  They were probably done to have a bit of cheeky fun for Council and the Leaders Levee- which is always intended to be a fun, relaxed event. In my experience as being one of the very few people on babble who actually saw the posters, was that no one objected and placed in the context of Provicial Council with all kinds of progressive talk on issues of substance, anyone I saw looking at them was amused.  But then that was attacked by someone who was not there for being some grand internalized excuse for all things evil, when I clearly stated it was just a guess based on my experience.

So this fantasy that they symbolize anything is pure and simple wrong. 

But of course, reality and actual factual accounts have no place on babble.

Kloch

Malcolm wrote:

Nice to see Kloch at least making a distinction about "in an economic downturn."  Economic downturns can be one of the occasions that justify temporary deficit financing.  That doesn't make concern about balancing the budget "right wing," as much as the simplistic argument being presented here would wish.

Your point would be valid if there were anything on them other than right-wing talking points.  That is the problem.  How is she going to balance the budget?  Privatization, outsourcing, mass-layoffs?  We know she isn't going to do it by raising taxes, because she doesn't believe in tax and spend.

These ads are incredibly silly and the fact that someone produced them without considering these fairly elementary facts suggests to me, if nothing else, a complete lack of understanding of both economics and marketing (may as well throw in elementary school arithmetic for that matter). 

Stuart_Parker

As I said on my Facebook page, a quick look at the Regina Manifesto should tell us, as socialists, that there is nothing wrong with prominently featuring a call for balanced budgets in our campaign materials.

I think that the "heels" reference and the other three posters are what cast this statement in such a bad light. I firmly believe that there is a pro-sustainability, anti-lender poster advocating balanced budgets that everyone here could rally around.

And Malcolm, the whole "lying" accusation is outrageous, not to mention reporting me to the mods for allegedly defaming you; it's pretty rich for you to throw ad hominem attacks at me and then try to get my posting privileges revoked for challenging your actions. Remind has been consistently insulting, dishonest and off-topic in her sniping at me not just in this thread but in every other one in which I have ever encountered her. Your idea that she shouldn't be required to take a fraction of what she dishes out based, as far as I can tell, solely on her gender, strikes me as the only sexist position being offered-up by any of the posters, aside from her and Bookish Agrarian.

As I said above, arguments should be able to stand on their own merits. If remind's arguments need her to be female in order to be considered convincing, then they are not, fundamentally, convincing. And if you feel that your characterizations of me can only stand if my posting privileges are revoked, I can say the same of yours.

Kloch

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

So this fantasy that they symbolize anything is pure and simple wrong. 

But of course, reality and actual factual accounts have no place on babble.

A fun thread if there ever was one.  We've gone from questioning whether the posters ever existed, to them being just a one-off joke.  Either way, the party is covered if we never see them again.  Nicely done.

Stuart_Parker

Bookish Agrarian wrote:
Please be factual.  They were not ads.

It shouldn't surprise me that you're splitting this hair. So here's dictionary.com's view on the subject.

dictionary.com wrote:
–noun

1. a paid announcement, as of goods for sale, in newspapers or magazines, on radio or television, etc.

2. a public notice, esp. in print.

3. the action of making generally known; a calling to the attention of the public: The news of this event will receive wide advertisement.



It is not misrepresentation on my part to use usages two and three.
Quote:
They do not symbolize anything other than a willingness on the part of the same people over and over on babble to attack the NDP at any opportunity at ever growing ridiculous lengths.

Do you have any reasoning to back that up? I bothered to talk about why I and various other people interpreted the posters as we did. Do you have something better than bald assertion to back up your theory of the poster?

Furthermore, if a poster is interpreted by a significant portion of the people who view it as sexist, trying to make the case that it is objectively not sexist isn't just a waste of time; it reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of how advertizing and public discourse work.

Bookish Agrarian

Kloch, thanks for proving my point.  In complete good faith- as one of the only babblers to actually, you know, see the posters in situ- I posted about my actual experiences.  I am not the only one who saw them as mocking and funny.  Not by a long shot.  I don't and can't speak for other babblers.  Your attempt to link them  and me in a thread I didn't post in is rhetorically childish, but typical based on my 6 years on babble. 

I provided my best guess as to what they were.  I have no idea beyond my experience to guide me.  As I said I don't know I am guessing. I am not an insider so all I can do is guess.  Just like you are.  However, based on actually being there and having been through past campaign material roll outs- it was clear that these posters were not of that sort.

I don't know how many times I have to say that they were not the centre of anything at Council.  Not a new strategy, not party messaging, nothing.  They were never, ever mentioned, which if they were part of anything they would be.  Always, always, always this is the case.  

Instead what there was 4 lonely little posters sitting on easel thingies.  That's it. 

Trying to make anything of them beyond, especially the ridiculous lenghts some are going to on that end, is pure fantasy.

Bookish Agrarian

Stuart_Parker wrote:

Bookish Agrarian wrote:
Please be factual.  They were not ads.

It shouldn't surprise me that you're splitting this hair. So here's dictionary.com's view on the subject.

dictionary.com wrote:
–noun

1. a paid announcement, as of goods for sale, in newspapers or magazines, on radio or television, etc.
2. a public notice, esp. in print.
3. the action of making generally known; a calling to the attention of the public: The news of this event will receive wide advertisement.



It is not misrepresentation on my part to use usages two and three.
Quote:
They do not symbolize anything other than a willingness on the part of the same people over and over on babble to attack the NDP at any opportunity at ever growing ridiculous lengths.

Do you have any reasoning to back that up? I bothered to talk about why I and various other people interpreted the posters as we did. Do you have something better than bald assertion to back up your theory of the poster?

Furthermore, if a poster is interpreted by a significant portion of the people who view it as sexist, trying to make the case that it is objectively not sexist isn't just a waste of time; it reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of how advertizing and public discourse work.

They were not ads as generally understood.  They were four lonely posters.  That is it.

Speaking of assertions.  what is a "significant portion of people" but an assertion?  As I have repeatedly said not a single person at Council objected.  Council has mandated gender parity.  So at least half the place was strong feminst women. Of the people I saw veiwing the actual posters not a single one objected, in fact from their expressions they were clearly amused.  Do those people not count?  Or is it only the ones who tell us, like you, that we MUST be offended count.  That is what I have objected to all along.  The lecturing of strong feminst women that they MUST be offended and if they aren't that somehow they just can't grasp the meaning of it all.  That stance is demeaning, arrogant, pompous and yes, frankly sexist.

If some don't like them that is their business.  But again they were a very, very minor part of Council so suggestions that they indicate some sort of shift somewhere is just plain wrong.  No one was really talking about the posters either in the chit chat around the place that I heard they were so minor.  They were visible so I expect most people saw them I know I saw people laugh out loud at them, including my daughter.  I have only ever tried to place them in context.  I have never once said that those who are bothered by them are wrong in their views- just that I and lots of others- who actually looked at the actual posters and others don't share that view.  I would have assumed that was our right, but clearly folks who don't fit the pre-determined script are irrelevant in the pile on.

Stuart_Parker

Bookish Agrarian wrote:
Thanks for proving my point.  In complete good faith- as one of the only babblers to actually, you know, see the posters in situ- I posted about my actual experiences.  I am not the only one who saw them as mocking and funny.

Nobody here is taking the position that those not offended by the posters really were offended and are lying to us. What we have done is put forward the view that a significant portion of our base would be offended by them. I get that some people found them funny and lighthearted; what I don't get is how some people having that experience is supposed to invalidate the experiences and interpretations of others.

Quote:
Not by a long shot.  I don't and can't speak for other babblers.  Your attempt to link them  and me in a thread I didn't post in is rhetorically childish, but typical based on my 6 years on babble.

I literally have no idea what you are talking about here. To whom am I linking you? You chose to stand behind remind's insulting treatment of me and throw in some of your own; this is consistent with your behaviour in every other thread in which the three of us interact. How is my observation that this is what you are doing "childish"?

Quote:
I provided my best guess as to what they were.

And I disagreed with (a) your guess and (b) the idea that any one interpretation of the posters can invalidate how they are seen by others. What the posters are inheres in the subjective experience of their viewers not in the intentions behind their creators. As I said upthread, I am convinced that the posters were an honest mistake by Horwath's cadre who are individuals I firmly believe are feminists.

But I think this new narrative that the posters were never intended for public consumption at all strains credulity. You don't put up posters in your head office and in the public halls of your provincial council meeting if they're some kind of in-joke. These are places frequented by media and interested members of the public. I might disagree with the current leadership crew but even I wouldn't suggest that they were such amateurs that they were prominently displaying materials to the media that they had actually produced as an inside joke.

Quote:
I don't know how many times I have to say that they were not the centre of anything at Council.

And I don't know how many times those disagreeing with you have said, "we never said they were; stop putting words in our mouths." This is the kind of strawman argumentation that makes me wonder why I even respond to you.

Quote:
Instead what there was 4 lonely little posters sitting on easel thingies.  That's it.

It's nice to know that the party has the time and resources to invest in producing glossy, expensive, enormous promotional materials each with a print run of 1.

remind remind's picture

Stuart_Parker wrote:
And Malcolm, the whole "lying" accusation is outrageous, not to mention reporting me to the mods for allegedly defaming you; it's pretty rich for you to throw ad hominem attacks at me and then try to get my posting privileges revoked for challenging your actions.

How do you know he reported you?

Quote:
 Remind has been consistently insulting, dishonest and off-topic in her sniping at me not just in this thread but in every other one in which I have ever encountered her.

What a personal attacking dishonest sexist ego maniac you are. Apparently anybody that challenges you is insulting to you. When they correctly point out what a sexist dolt you are, they are being dishonest, eh.

As I have said before thank the Goddess the NDP is well rid of your ilk.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

Cueball wrote:

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

I take it no one bothered to read what actually happened at provincal council and the tiny, teeny role these posters actually played.

I thought not.

Ok. So what happened?

In the previous thread I posted at length the role these posters played in the provicial council meeting, which amounted to a big pretty much nothing.

Having been around even longer than Michael Laxer, but I guess I am not so preening trying to rationalize my connections, it is my experience that if these 4 lonely little posters were anything of import- say like the messaging for an election, or even pre-writ period- they would have been up on the screens, in boxes for us to take home to our riding, cover all available wall space and so on.  Instead as I said there were 4 posters in total mocking some of the mainstream views of the NDP.  There was a 5th in another location, but I don't recall it having type on it, but I didn't look at it closely.

When you worked on the Pantelone campaign I will be amazed if you never ran into those sorts of comments.  I have for the entire 32 years since I worked on my first NDP campaign.  If you actually talked to voters (and I only say that because I am not sure what you did on the campaign) at their doorstep these sorts of comments had to come up.  If they didn't than chalk it up to the difference between municipal and other levels of government.  Because in those other two levels those sorts of things come up hourly or better in canvassing.

I think it is a bit disingenuous to intimate that Laxer is "preening" when his statement about his past efforts to help the NDP were in the context of being challenged on his willingness to put his money were his mouth is.

In point of fact, my comments are largely drawn from experiences I had on the Pantalone campaign. One thing that astonished me is that many Canadians, in particular immigrant Canadians I met had no idea that the NDP was on the left of anything. It seems to me that "Left' messaging has become so buried in attempts to look to be part of the mainstream and uncontroversial center, that many people are hardly to be blamed for not being able to locate the NDP program.

Simply saying that Pantalone was on "the left" drew in many people I met who were not from mainstream anglo society.

Stuart_Parker

remind wrote:
How do you know he reported you?

Because he sent me a PM telling me he had.

Quote:
What a personal attacking dishonest sexist ego maniac you are. Apparently anybody that challenges you is insulting to you. When they correctly point out what a sexist dolt you are, they are being dishonest, eh.

As I have said before thank the Goddess the NDP is well rid of your ilk.

Once again, a reason-free, logic-free, information-free stream of name calling. Who isn't surprised?

Plenty of people challenge me here and we engage in fruitful, honest, information-based debate. Sadly you are not one of those people.

Bookish Agrarian

Kloch please be factual.  They were not ads.  They were a grand total of 4 posters.  They do not symbolize anything other than a willingness on the part of the same people over and over on babble to attack the NDP at any opportunity at ever growing ridiculous lengths.

 

ndpman

 

Enough already. The posters are a success. The fact that most on this board are so appalled by them proves that they are bound to find appeal with the larger group of voters who tend to shy away from left wing "wackoism."  Their substance attempts to take a shot at some of the negative stereotypes associated with the traditional societal view that many erroneously hold concerning the ndp and politics in general.  i.e. females in power, left wingers as incompetent fiscal managers, aggressively environmentalist to the detriment of progress etc.  They are a bit risqué but these are desperate times and messaging must be put into place.  Ontario is increasingly embracing right wing ideologies as witnessed in the municipal politics in Toronto, Provincial politics with Hudak's popularity and Federal politics with the continued move towards the Harper regime. (see two federal by election wins and one right on Toronto's Liberal doorstep in Vaughn).   If we have learned anything it is that if society is going right, then the NDP must appear to come towards the center or else risk further alienation and marginalization as an extremist protest movement with no real hope of forming government. It is fine and dandy to have these wonderful left wing principles but if you can't get elected or at least into a power positions the left wing movement of the ndp becomes merely a social club of downtrodden complainers.  Support your party and leadership, spend less time complaining on this board at every which way the wind blows and get out there and sell a membership. 

Forgot to mention that the "not you grandfathers NDP" is a bit offensive and should be stricken from the ad as it is a tad overkill and we should be proud of our roots.

 

Bookish Agrarian

Cueball wrote:

I think it is a bit disingenuous to intimate that Laxer is "preening" when his statement about his past efforts to help the NDP were in the context of being challenged on his willingness to put his money were his mouth is.

In point of fact, my comments are largely drawn from experiences I had on the Pantalone campaign. One thing that astonished me is that many Canadians, in particular immigrant Canadians I met had no idea that the NDP was on the left of anything. It seems to me that "Left' messaging has become so buried in attempts to look to be part of the mainstream and uncontroversial center, that many people are hardly to be blamed for not being able to locate the NDP program.

Simply saying that Pantalone was on "the left" drew in many people I met who were not from mainstream anglo society.

I was refering to the comments he made about being friends with all of caucus and half the executive- which had nothing to do with anything in the context of the post. 

So based on one municpal campaign in Toronto you are able to draw conclusions about how the NDP is viewed in the entire province in the context of provincial politics.  That's a good trick.  I'm impressed.Wink

I do take your point though that the NDP has a huge job ahead of it building identity and support amongst new Canadians.  Frankly that is true of all parties, unions, social activist groups and so on.  I think we would agree on that wouldn't we?

Pages

Topic locked