How do we mobilize support for Joe Pantalone?

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Stockholm

We all (I think) agree with Pantalone's policies and with what he's saying - the problem is in the delivery. There is no connection, no empathy...I've heard him at a debate and I nod in agreement, but the other candidates are speaking to John Q Public and Joe sounds like he is on an expert panel at a meeting of the Ontario Municipal Board. His answers to questions tend to be in some impenetrable bureaucratese.  

Cueball Cueball's picture

Some people appreciate that he doesn't come across like a loud mouthed blow hard like the rest. Indeed, isn't the point really that we need a competent manager and team player at city hall as opposed to an ranting idealogue or a snake oil salesman.

In other words, the fact that he is not like that is something of a strength. That is why we have to provide the energy to communicate that message.

Lord Palmerston

John Cartwright has launched the One Toronto campaign, which is having a meeting on Monday night.  I think this may lead to the creation of a municipal party of the Left.

 

Stockholm

"Some people appreciate that he doesn't come across like a loud mouthed blow hard like the rest."

Yes, SOME people appreciate that - unfortunately I think that there aren't enough of them. Most people are attracted to some vision, some cut and thrust, some charisma etc...They don't get inspired to vote for someone who is about as exciting as a mashed potato sandwich - especially in a five way race where you really need to distinguish yourself. Pantalone would make a great mahyor but as a candidate he is BORING.

I try to put myself in the position of the being an undecided voter and I struggle to figure out what would motivate me to vote for someone who basically just says "you never had it so good and whatever isn't so good in the city is the fault of the provincial and federal governments"

Cueball Cueball's picture

Actually, Joe Pantalone said the only thing that inspired me at all in this campaign. He said: "there are more of us than there are of them."

Lord Palmerston

[url=http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/torontomayoralrace/article/866320--walko... Rob Ford isn't the Anti-Christ.[/url]

Quote:
Rob Ford is not the Anti-Christ. He’s just a right-winger from Etobicoke who wants to be Toronto mayor. His critics should get a grip.

The demonization of Ford is over the top. He’s mocked as a buffoon and a slob. He’s treated as a candidate driven solely by anger with nothing serious to say.

On the basis of absolutely no evidence, his supporters have been compared to the ultra-right, anti-immigrant, anti-government Tea Party movement in the United States and to racists in Europe.

The higher he climbs in the polls, the more his critics wring their hands. They ask who in their right minds could possibly vote for Rob Ford. They wonder whether his fans – variously described as anti-downtown suburbanites or old white males – are evil or merely delusional.

All of this might be explicable if Ford were a true outlier, if all other serious mayoralty candidates were promising something different. But except for leftish councilor Joe Pantalone, all are on the same wavelength, calling for deep spending cuts and privatization.

George Smitherman, who according to the polls is in the number two spot, says he’s the only one who can stop Ford. But even if he does, what difference would that make? On important issues, the platforms of the two men (yes, Ford does have a platform) are eerily similar.

Both would attempt to cut spending in ways that aren’t fully defined; both would contemplate contracting out garbage collection; both would hire more cops.

Both would slash the vehicle registration tax and curb the growth of bike lanes on major streets. Both would scrap current TTC expansion plans and instead concentrate on more subways.

In fact, Smitherman’s platform is more extreme. He would freeze property taxes which, when done in the past, has sent the city spiralling into debt.

 

Cueball Cueball's picture

He fails to join the dots at the end and endorse Pantalone... not quite there yet but they are coming: This however will be the main editorial tomorrow in the Star:

Quote:

Transit planks lack practicality

Many issues remain to be addressed in Toronto’s mayoral race but at least one has received a thorough airing — the future of public transit in Canada’s largest city. All five leading candidates have presented their visions. Each has pledged faster and better service for the more than 470 million riders now using the TTC each year. Some plans are bold, even to the point of rashness. Only one is realistic.

Joe Pantalone is promising to carry on with Mayor David Miller’s “Transit City” expansion plan, including light-rail lines on Eglinton, Sheppard and Finch Aves. and replacement of the Scarborough LRT. Funding for these lines has already been pledged by the province. Metrolinx, the provincial transit agency, is solidly behind the plan.

Pantalone’s endorsement of the status quo may lack the drama of his rival candidates’ visions of new subway routes criss-crossing the city. But it has the advantage of being practical.

Seems like maybe Torstar is getting the message...

 

 

Lord Palmerston

Good for the Star for pointing this out...but I'm betting we'll see hysterical shilling of "Smitherman or the end of civilization as we know it" over the next few weeks nonetheless.

adma

Stockholm wrote:
Yes, SOME people appreciate that - unfortunately I think that there aren't enough of them. Most people are attracted to some vision, some cut and thrust, some charisma etc...They don't get inspired to vote for someone who is about as exciting as a mashed potato sandwich - especially in a five way race where you really need to distinguish yourself. Pantalone would make a great mahyor but as a candidate he is BORING.

Which...in an unfortunate tables-are-turned circumstance--sounds like what helped doom Barbara Hall in 2003.  Meanwhile, it's Hall's erstwhile honcho Smitherman who knows how to turn on the Millerish passion taps when he really wants to...

jrootham

I got a call from Ipsos-Reid today polling about the mayoralty campaign.

The questions were:

In what part of the city do you live?

Are you going to vote?

Who would you vote for now?

Are you going to change your mind?

If you had to vote for Ford or Smitherman, who would it be?

 

The last question suggests that the Star is doing the poll and they are trying to set up a push for Smitherman because Ford is the anti Christ.

 

nussy

I dont see much difference between the two. Ford is playing it smart now. He is not saying much now,  except his mantra. Smitherman is trying to be gimmicking along with Rossi. 

Pantalone had better do something soon or he is toast the nice guy approach is going nowhere.

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Quote:
I struggle to figure out what would motivate me to vote for someone who basically just says "you never had it so good and whatever isn't so good in the city is the fault of the provincial and federal governments"

Struggle all you want, but I've never heard anything of the sort said by Joey Pants.

Lord Palmerston

jrootham wrote:
If you had to vote for Ford or Smitherman, who would it be?

Could you decline to answer that one?

writer writer's picture

Democracy is not a spectator sport.

http://mayorjoe.ca | 416.534.2611 | 366 Bloor Street East, Unit 6 (north west corner, Bloor and Sherbourne)

Cueball Cueball's picture

nussy wrote:

I dont see much difference between the two. Ford is playing it smart now. He is not saying much now,  except his mantra. Smitherman is trying to be gimmicking along with Rossi. 

Pantalone had better do something soon or he is toast the nice guy approach is going nowhere.

Really? he is the only contender who has seen a serious poll gain in the last 3 weeks, putting him within the margin of error of being ahead of Smitherman. I am getting a little tired of this Waiting for Mr. Goodbar approach to politics. If you have a more scintillating personality than Joe, then you should get out there and shine and bring out the vote.

Lots of less than charismatic politicians succeed, and they do so on the basis of the organization that supports them.

Stockholm

I very much doubt it was for the Star. These days, the Star does all its polling with Angus Reid and they are online polls. Ipsos tends to poll for Canwest and the National Post.

I think that it is perfectly legitimate to ask people how they would vote in a hypothetical two-way race between Ford and Smitherman - just as a way of measuing to what extent there is an "anyone but Ford" sentiment out there. Though I'd also like to know the numbers if people had to choose between Ford and Pantalone.

My hunch is that in a hypothetical Ford/Smitherman race - Ford still comes out ahead - because so many people are repulsed by Smitherman.

jrootham wrote:

I got a call from Ipsos-Reid today polling about the mayoralty campaign.

The questions were:

In what part of the city do you live?

Are you going to vote?

Who would you vote for now?

Are you going to change your mind?

If you had to vote for Ford or Smitherman, who would it be?

 

The last question suggests that the Star is doing the poll and they are trying to set up a push for Smitherman because Ford is the anti Christ.

 

Cueball Cueball's picture

In fact. I would go so far as to say that the Smitherman/McGunity axis is what is driving a good portion of the Ford vote. Without visible options, they end up in the Ford camp. The star is largely responsible for posing Smitherman as the only reasonable candidate, sewering Giambroni and the downplaying Pantalone's strengths.

Indeed, even Thompson won't pledge for Smitherman, instead saying that if she drops she will back Rossi.

Rossi is interesting. He started the campaign as possibly viable, but, his antics are begining to make him look increasingly flakey. Its pretty amazing the blithering stupidities that will pop out of the mouths of the pampered rich if you give them a microphone.

His latest, is giving a 10 minute grace period on parking meters. Meter enforcement officers would have to give people 10 minutes grace before ticketing. Of course, you don't have to have been around for too long to understand that all you are really doing is adding 10 minutes to meter time, and people will count 30 minutes as 40 minutes, and end up having an argument with the parking officer anyway since they are "only a minute or two" past the ten minute grace period.

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

writer wrote:

Democracy is not a spectator sport.

http://mayorjoe.ca | 416.534.2611 | 366 Bloor Street East, Unit 6 (north west corner, Bloor and Sherbourne)

Thanks for that timely reminder. Donation made, lawn sign on order.

edited to add:

And yes, I do realize that buying myself a ticket and waving my sign around is just being a more enthusiatic spectator. There's more to be done.

Stockholm

Cueball wrote:

Indeed, even Thompson won't pledge for Smitherman, instead saying that if she drops she will back Rossi.

What I find really weird is how the Toronto Star conveniently decides to release a poll showing a slightly less formidable lead for Ford and Smitherman a clear second - two days after the Nanos bombshell that had Ford 24 points ahead and Pantalone nipping at Smitherman's heels. On top of that the Star poll was in field over a week before they decided to release. Its as if they were going to sit on the poll altogether because it had Ford ahead - until they realized they needed to show that Smitherman wasn't losing as badly as the Nanos poll suggested.

It also seems very weird that the last couple of polls have had Sarah Thmpson in fourth place and Rocco Rossi in fifth place - and yet all of a sudden 4th place Sarah starts to muse about dropping out of the race to stop Ford - but it seems that if she does so it will be to back 5th place Rocco! Let me get this straight - the person running 4th is going to drop out to support the person running 5th in a desparate attempt to stop the person who is running 1st?????

peterjcassidy peterjcassidy's picture

Joe and the forces around him, including other progressive" candidates for municipal office, labour, NDP,  AND the Good Jobs for All coalition and the forces around it,  including  labour and  diverse communities, need to reach out to each other at this time and in this election.   Joe and these "progressive "candidates  can't win unless they get support from those communities , specifically unless these communites show up in large numbers and vote for them. . The Good Job for All coalition has to take seriously its responsiblity to organize and mobilizie its members around its issues in this municipal elections, specigicaly to faciliate members of their communities show up in large numebrs and vote for Good Jobs for All.

FYI, this might be a start

About Joe

When Joe Pantalone arrived in Toronto from Sicily when he was 13 years old, he knew only two words: Yeah and No, words he learned from watching American movies. The son of a TTC tunnel worker and a seamstress, Joe found his place in the people and politics of the vibrant streets of Little Italy. Like other immigrants, Joe made Toronto his home. He attended Harbord Collegiate, tested his political mettle in student politics, and graduated from the University of Toronto with a degree in geography.

http://www.mayorjoe.ca/about-joe/

takeitslowly

thompson was standing behind Rocco while he was giving a speech attacking Ford's comment on immigration a few weeks ago..maybe they have a close relationship and he promised her something if he gets her support..maybe they are both outsiders looking for attention and figure that if they work together, they would get more attention

Cueball Cueball's picture

Stockholm wrote:

Cueball wrote:

Indeed, even Thompson won't pledge for Smitherman, instead saying that if she drops she will back Rossi.

What I find really weird is how the Toronto Star conveniently decides to release a poll showing a slightly less formidable lead for Ford and Smitherman a clear second - two days after the Nanos bombshell that had Ford 24 points ahead and Pantalone nipping at Smitherman's heels. On top of that the Star poll was in field over a week before they decided to release. Its as if they were going to sit on the poll altogether because it had Ford ahead - until they realized they needed to show that Smitherman wasn't losing as badly as the Nanos poll suggested.

Yes. They have been trying hard to ignore the Nanos poll.

Lord Palmerston

It's kind of ironic in a way.  I remember a few years ago Liberal Party partisans insisting that Nanos was the most reliable pollster.  Now Nanos has the Liberal hatchet man Smitherman at a dismal 21%!

jrootham

Lord Palmerston wrote:

jrootham wrote:
If you had to vote for Ford or Smitherman, who would it be?

Could you decline to answer that one?

 

I refused to answer that one.

 

Lord Palmerston

I'm not opposed to the question of "between two candidates", but if Ford and Smitherman were the only candidates on the ballot, I would abstain.

Stockholm

I would never abstain. I'd have to think very long and hard about what would be worse for the city between Smitherman and Ford. You can make an argument that Smitherman is "just as bad" on the policy front and more likely to get his agenda through council. Then again, Smitherman - whatever you may think of him as an individual - is not a rightwing fanatic like Ford. I think he just wants to be mayor and will "dance with the one who brought him" and he actually does have backers on the progressive side of the ledger who he would have to keep in line (i.e. NDPer Pam McConnell has backed him from the start).

So I just don't know

takeitslowly

I take a gay mayor over an ignorant one any day.

As a trans woman, he re introduced very limited funding for sex reassignment surgeries for transsexuals. Anything is better than nothing, but i would never vote for Smitherman since there are other choices.

I do not like the way he runs his campaign as a liberal against the NDP.

takeitslowly

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorialopinion/article/866223--persichilli-mayoral-election-is-about-miller-not-ford#article

 

Interesting perspective.

 

 

 

 

There we have the best museums, art galleries and universities, but also a lot of ignorance just a few hundred metres away from those institutions. There are religious icons like St. Michael's Cathedral, but also in the same street many organizations that are challenging Catholic doctrine. You find the opulent banks at Bay and King, but also food banks around the corner. There are the beautiful houses of the Rosedale enclave, but also a lot of homeless people. There are expensive and fancy cars, but also people who cannot even afford the TTC.

Miller didn't deal with any of these contradictions. He made them worse by promoting petty projects like bike lanes that were sold as a social revolution, an environmental game-changer. His approach to government has been much like the behaviour of rich socialites who pollute the environment with their SUVs and private planes or sully the lakes in Muskoka with their powerboats and then engage in petty projects such as sending their children to volunteer at the food bank or to some camp in a Third World country for a photo-op to fabricate a social conscience.

Stockholm

I don't think its interesting at all - I think that whole column is just about the biggest pack of lies and distortions I've ever seen. I get the impression that the Toronto Star just cannot forgive David Miller for not being a big "L" Liberal and so they set out to destroy him to pave the way for their puppet Smitherman. Unfortunately, they overplayed their hand so much with their calculated strategy of running down the city at every opportunity that they opened a Pandora's box that they can no longer control and now Ford may be elected.

In the case of Persichilli, I get the impression that he is a big Rocco Rossi supporter who is having a fit because his candidate is getting floushed down the toilet to a greater extent than anyone else.

Any objective analysis would show that under Miller the city bent over backwards to a fault to try to help "priority areas" in the suburbs and to try to improve social conditions etc...I'm sorry if people get aggravated by traffic jams on their way to work - maybe they should take the TTC - if you think ANY of the candidates for mayor are going to build any massive new expressways into the city - dream on.

I'm not so sure that I would always take a gay mayor over an ignorant one. There are people in the world who are or were gay who are some of the most evil people of all times (i.e. Caligula, Ernst Roehm, J. Edgar Hoover, Roy Cohn and many others). I would much rather be ruled by some ignorant "village idiot" like Rob Ford than have a reincarnation of J. Edgar Hoover as mayor. The dangeous thing about Smitherman is that I wouldn't put it past him to shamelessly use his gayness as a smokescreen to make us think he's "hip", while he goes on a rightwing reign of terror.

takeitslowly

 
The problem is that if I live in one of the non-priority Scarborough neighborhoods, I would not get much of anything from city hall, but I would argue that I have just as much difficulties finding a job. The only difference is that I do not commit crimes on my free time, I ranted on message boards instead.
But i am NOT fine.
And in terms of a gay mayor, I think a gay mayor would be useful because I have heard alot of ignorant and homophobic things from the whole sex education fiasco started by the Dalton M government. A gay mayor would possibly increase visibilities and acceptance of queers.

socialdemocracynow

I have no problem with a gay major, but Smitherman is no good for Toronto. We want Transit City.

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

What do you find so interesting?

The pig-ignorance? The blatant lies? Or perhaps the seething irrational hate oozing from between the lines?

takeitslowly

i dont feel emotionally connected to downtown and i dont feel like the people there are people i can relate to..they seem either really rich or hip..and i guess its just the suburban bigot in me, but city hall politics and the talk of bike lanes, none of those stuff seems to speak to me.  Even i lost interest in the pride parade this year..*sigh* used to go all the time..

writer writer's picture

I suspect the 1,200 people burned out of their homes in St. Jametown aren't feeling particularly rich or hip right now.

Cueball Cueball's picture

takeitslowly wrote:

i dont feel emotionally connected to downtown and i dont feel like the people there are people i can relate to..they seem either really rich or hip..and i guess its just the suburban bigot in me, but city hall politics and the talk of bike lanes, none of those stuff seems to speak to me.  Even i lost interest in the pride parade this year..*sigh* used to go all the time..

As ephemeral as you things like bike lanes, roof top gardens, being able to raise chickens in your backyard and solar power are the reality is that people like Miller and Pantalone were on to something very important. Indeed they did too little. But that is city politics for you. The fact is that in the next ten years the price of gas is going to be so high that all this talk of traffic congestion is going to be completely irrelvant, since only the Rob Ford's of the world will be driving. Imagine a Toronto something like the Soviet Union were important personages cruise nearly empty streets in their shiney limosines.

That is the future.

People like Ford and his minions are living in the past dreaming of a world something like the 1950's and 60's that they think they can get back too by going back 19th century politics,

takeitslowly

oh i know the St James town area is very poor, i visited my family doctor there, downtown is still very important to me because its the only place where i can have access to trans friendly family doctors and services

I am sorry if i sound so reactionary and right wing, i don't know what has gotten into me, but i just dont believe in left wing politics as much anymore, i dont even enjoy anything out of reading NOW magazine. I guess i am still clinging onto the left becuase i am still posting here, i wonder when i will get banned though haha.

I will never vote for ford because like my ex boyfriend told me, hes "old money", he inherited the business from his daddy, he doesn't care about people like me, and Pentalone seems so cold and i dont think he will do anything for me either, the only thing i can believe in right now is myself and a hot cup of coffee..

Cueball Cueball's picture

I don't actually find Pantalone cold. I find him to be not a friggin loud mouth like the rest of em. I am sorry if you feel that the left isn't doing anything for you. It might have something to do with the fact that it has never really been in power in this country. Next time you go see the physician and don't have to pay for it out of your own pocket, remind yourself how little the left has ever done for you.

I would dearly love it if all the Conservatives in Ontario would put their money where their mouth is and turn in their OHIP cards.

takeitslowly

you are quiet combative, i respect that! I went to York university and i canvassed and fundraised money for the NDP, i know Pantalone is probably the right choice for me, I just dont feel the same passion anymore, thats all. I guess i am getting older and becoming more bitter and less idealistic. okay and maybe selfish, but whatever, i got nothing, no saving, and alot of debts, its not like i am going anywhere with my life, focusing on left wing politics seem to matter as much as watching porn on the internet..

okay i am getting off topic..my last one on this one. lol.

Cueball Cueball's picture

I am not idealistic at all and hate the NDP. I just happen to connect to local politics. I personally think the party stinks. However, there is a basis for organization around Pantalone at the moment, and that is my chief interest. I don't really care if he gets in or not. I do care that people are mobilized for the coming struggle.

writer writer's picture

takeitslowly, I've got to challenge you. Your statement, "i dont feel emotionally connected to downtown and i dont feel like the people there are people i can relate to..they seem either really rich or hip" has absolutely nothing to do with "the left". It has everything to do with you. Sounds like you should know better than to say baseless, ignorant, reactionary crap like that.

Stockholm

 

takeitslowly wrote:
 

The problem is that if I live in one of the non-priority Scarborough neighborhoods, I would not get much of anything from city hall, but I would argue that I have just as much difficulties finding a job.

Hmmm...so you think you don't get ANYTHING from City Hall because you live in Scarborough? Who do you think collects your garbage, who do you think provides buses and the subway to Scarborough? Where do you think the police and fire department come from? What about councollors from Scarborough like Glenn  DeBearemaker, Norm Kelly, Brian Ashton. Adrian Heaps etc... who have been powerful members of the Executive Committee?

Listening to this griping reminds of people from out west who would endlessly complain about the federal government never doing enough for them - no matter how much the government would bend over backwards to cater to them.

If you seriously think that reversing amalgamation and making Scarborough a separate city again would miraculously mean a subway line by your front door every five minutes 24-hours a day, daily garbage collection and brand new 12 lane expressway into the city - i think you're sadly mistaken.

The previous mayor (in case you forgot) was Mel lastman the quitessential suburbanite from North York - it don't recall his reign as being some "halcyon" period when life was a bowl of cherries if you lived in the 'burbs. In fact it was when "suburban Mel" ran the city that things really started to go off the rails.

A political

Lord Palmerston wrote:

John Cartwright has launched the One Toronto campaign, which is having a meeting on Monday night.  I think this may lead to the creation of a municipal party of the Left.

 

Oh good we can all get on board a support the Labour backed candidate.....My god that is why many are voting for Rob Ford in the first place...little wonder the baffoon is winning.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Hardly. What the polls show is that people are voting against Smitherman. There has been no seriously visible labour candidate in this election, and yet Smitherman simply can not get any traction, even though your golden boy promised that he would sub-contract out garbage collection with contracts that include "no strike" clauses. Yet, even with this direct attack on the right to collective bargaining and huge media profile Smitherman can not shake Eheath, or his connections with McGuinty. And that is the whole story.

Indeed, the more the Star plays up Smitherman as the only alternative to Ford, the more mileage Ford gets. Smitherman, meanwhile hasn't shifted an inch in public opinion since he first announced his candidacy a year ago. Ford has trebled his support.

In the same time frame, the "labour candidate" has increased his support 50% according to the last Nanos poll, and is now within the margin of error of out-pacing Smitherman.

Your boy is done.

 

writer writer's picture

Quote:
Got questions for Joe? He'll be participating in a live editorial board with the National Post at 2 p.m. Send in your questions and read the liveblog: http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/09/27/send-us-your-questions-for-mayoral-candidate-joe-pantalone/

Cueball Cueball's picture

I gotta go. Ask him a Transit City question for me. Stay away from the environment stuff. That wont play well with that crowd. Joe's tranist plan is one of his strengths.

A political

[quote=Cueball

In the same time frame, the "labour candidate" has increased his support 50% according to the last Nanos poll, and is now within the margin of error of out-pacing Smitherman.

Your boy is done.

Now that is funny...first he is not my candidate..far from it....and I am not anti labour......but the ones voting for Ford are and I am betting many of the undecided as well are not pro labour.....Funny thing about percentages  if I have 10 votes and 5 more climb on board I have increased my support by 50%.  This is the story with Joe. I believe the next poll will be the true teller of what is happening in the number two spot and who it is.  Me I am happy to support either one if they can beat Ford.  Something tells me you won't change your vote and then we can spend the next four deciding who was the Ralph Nader of this election.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Of the entire poll, including undecided, Joe was favoured by 12% Smitherman by 16%. This is negligible difference. Smitherman has run on a decidedly anti-union platform, so has Ford. Pantalone, has recieved about 10% of the press coverage that Smitherman and Ford have recieved. This has been framed with Smitherman as the man to beat for most of the last year. As the man to beat, he has been dead in the water for the entire year.

It's not about unions. It's about Smitherman, one of the anti-union candidates. He is driving people to Ford, because of the McGuinty connection, Ehealth, g20 and so on. Even Thompson, when discussing dropping out of the race in order to create an anti-Ford pluraity behind a single candidate, wont endorse Smitherman. She woudl endorse Rocco Rossi. No one will touch the guy.

Sure there is a hard core of anti-union conservatives out there, but most people are ambivalent about them, if they have any views at all. A lot of those people who are ambivalent are ambivalent because they are not in one, and would like to be.

writer writer's picture

There can be no "Ralph Nader" in this election. No electoral colleges. No gap between them and the popular vote. If we keep insisting that democracy has to be cooked down to choosing between one guy in a white hat and one guy in a black hat (while ignoring actual policy platforms), then we'll be even further away from true democracy than when we started.

Cueball Cueball's picture

People are always being intimidated into voting for evil to ward off the ultimate evil. Its why we always lose.

A political

Cueball wrote:

People are always being intimidated into voting for evil to ward off the ultimate evil. Its why we always lose.

 

Who is "we"?

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