Make the case for one Ontario School System

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Fidel

genstrike wrote:
Fidel wrote:

We can't afford a lot of social spending since privatizing money creation in 1991, and since a terrible federal Liberal budget in 1995. You people seem to want to use this failed rightwing ideology as an excuse to help the neoliberals with their fiscal austerity and long game for privatizing all public services in Canada eventually.

You're the one whose always telling us "the NDP can't do this because of this budget 15 years ago".  You're the one who uses the failed right-wing ideology as an excuse to help neoliberals and divert people from their struggle.

No, I'm still blaming the two old line parties for racking-up one of the largest national debts in the history of the world in a country with unparalleled natural resource wealth, and then used it as an excuse for self-imposed impotence ever since Mulroney.

And you still have no clue. You think Gary Doer is a meany for not doing more than providing a 60% tax rebate on tuition fees in an NDP province with the lowest cost of living in the country.

In fact, youre tha

guy

Fidel

genstrike wrote:
Fidel wrote:

We can't afford a lot of social spending since privatizing money creation in 1991, and since a terrible federal Liberal budget in 1995. You people seem to want to use this failed rightwing ideology as an excuse to help the neoliberals with their fiscal austerity and long game for privatizing all public services in Canada eventually.

You're the one whose always telling us "the NDP can't do this because of this budget 15 years ago".  You're the one who uses the failed right-wing ideology as an excuse to help neoliberals and divert people from their struggle.

No, I'm still blaming the two old line parties for racking-up one of the largest national debts in the history of the world in a country with unparalleled natural resource wealth, and then used it as an excuse for self-imposed impotence ever since Mulroney.

And you still have no clue. You think Gary Doer is a meany for not doing more than providing a 60% tax rebate on tuition fees in an NDP province with the lowest cost of living in the country.

In fact, youre tha

guy who

Fidel

genstrike wrote:
Fidel wrote:

We can't afford a lot of social spending since privatizing money creation in 1991, and since a terrible federal Liberal budget in 1995. You people seem to want to use this failed rightwing ideology as an excuse to help the neoliberals with their fiscal austerity and long game for privatizing all public services in Canada eventually.

You're the one whose always telling us "the NDP can't do this because of this budget 15 years ago".  You're the one who uses the failed right-wing ideology as an excuse to help neoliberals and divert people from their struggle.

No, I'm still blaming the two old line parties for racking-up one of the largest national debts in the history of the world in a country with unparalleled natural resource wealth, and then used it as an excuse for self-imposed impotence ever since Mulroney.

And you still have no clue. You think Gary Doer is a meany for not doing more than providing a 60% tax rebate on tuition fees in an NDP province with the lowest cost of living in the country.

In fact, youre tha

guy who want

Fidel

genstrike wrote:
Fidel wrote:

We can't afford a lot of social spending since privatizing money creation in 1991, and since a terrible federal Liberal budget in 1995. You people seem to want to use this failed rightwing ideology as an excuse to help the neoliberals with their fiscal austerity and long game for privatizing all public services in Canada eventually.

You're the one whose always telling us "the NDP can't do this because of this budget 15 years ago".  You're the one who uses the failed right-wing ideology as an excuse to help neoliberals and divert people from their struggle.

No, I'm still blaming the two old line parties for racking-up one of the largest national debts in the history of the world in a country with unparalleled natural resource wealth, and then used it as an excuse for self-imposed impotence ever since Mulroney.

And you still have no clue. You think Gary Doer is a meany for not doing more than providing a 60% tax rebate on tuition fees in an NDP province with the lowest cost of living in the country.

In fact, youre the guy who wants Doer to drop everything in Manitoba and restore billions of dollars in core funding to PSE that was robbed from provincial governments since 1995!

But when it comes to Catholic students in Ontario, mr generosity for himself isnt so generous anymore.

genstrike

Fidel wrote:
And you still have no clue.

And you're a fucking idiot.

Fidel

genstrike wrote:

Fidel wrote:
And you still have no clue.

And you're a fucking idiot.

No soup or lower tuition fees to you. And if Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, PEI and New Brunswick fund only one school system, then why isnt PSE more affordable in those provinces among all else that is lacking?

Unionist

Bookish Agrarian wrote:
Unionist wrote:
Those who fearmonger that the NDP will lose votes are generally the same ones who oppose taking any bold position on any controversial issue at all. Try to imagine the birth of medicare with such worthies at the helm: "The doctors will oppose us, and people love their doctors!"

 

Bull-fucking-shit.

And you claim to know something about farming???

You appear to be conflating two important but generally separate (and private!) functions of livestock.

However, I'm ready to learn. Draw me a picture.

 

saga saga's picture

Lord Palmerston wrote:

Horwath boldly added that “education is not the most important issue.” She pointed out that we need to first deal with the under-funding of public schools in general. “We need to look at schools that do not have enough resources to provide education for kids whose second language is English,” she explained. “Even children with special needs do not receive enough funding…and some schools are physically falling apart.”

Horwath suggested that Ontarians need to find a common ground and build upon that instead of having separate religious schools, since this “erodes money away from the public system.”

 

Well, that's bold alright. However, I'm concerned that it may be a career-limiting move.

Maybe I'm wrong ... maybe this is the time. However, a roughly split vote in Ontario, as I saw somewhere above,  is a vote of Catholics vs non-Catholics and I do see that as a problem.

See demographics here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ontario#Religious_groups

Not sure we want to go there ... but maybe as economic conditions worsen, sharing facilities may become feasible. Secularization won't, imo.

 

NorthReport

Did quite know where to post this but it just shows that separate schools problems are not restricted to Ontario.

Unionist is correct of course, and the ON NDP continue to pay the price of not adequately addressing the separate school issue.

Doesn't the NDP ever want to win an election again in Ontario? 

Faith schools accused of 'backdoor selection'

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/education/article5835156.ece

 

Lord Palmerston

NorthReport wrote:
Doesn't the NDP ever want to win an election again in Ontario? 

As has been pointed out again and again and again, a majority of Ontarians support one system and only about 25% support the fund Catholics only status quo.  

NorthReport

Did not quite know where to post this but it shows that separate school problems are not restricted to Ontario.

Unionist is correct of course, and the ON NDP continue to pay the price of not adequately addressing the separate school issue.

Doesn't the NDP ever want to win an election again in Ontario? 

Faith schools accused of 'backdoor selection'

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/education/article5835156.ece

Fidel

NorthReport wrote:

Unionist is correct of course, and the ON NDP continue to pay the price of not adequately addressing the separate school issue.

 

Oh that's baloney. It's an old line party legacy issue in Ontariario, and neither Liberals nor Tories have dealt with it properly. It was not the cause for Mike Harris exiting stage right before an election. And it did not prevent Pinocchio and his Liberals from winning a phony majority. Breaking over 50 of his election promises of 2003 didnt prevent Pinocchio and his Bay Street hirelings part deux from winning a 22 percent majority.

According to the federation of elementary school teachers in Ontario, the real issue is a chronic funding gap between primary and secondary schools in this province, persistent since Harris-Eves' and their uncommon nonsense revolution

Unionist

Listen to Fidel. He's got the formula for getting the NDP back to power: Ignore the issues, attack the Liberals and Conservatives.

Especially when one of the issues is Ontarians' desire to stop paying for Catholic indoctrination.

It may not be a very original strategy, but at least it's ... ummm ... not very original.

 

Fidel

unionist, we have a $100 billion dollar infrastructure deficit in Ontario, and the second-hand economic ideology for giving the country to the Yanks real cheap isnt working very well at all. You might think this is an issue that's going to catapult the NDP into 22 percent phony-baloney majority territory, but then I'd have to say you have no idea what youre talking about. And this is why this old line party legacy issue is not taken seriously by the ONDP right now.

If Pinocchio McGuilty wants to be seen and heard doing something progressive instead of the usual banning cell phones and chewing gum and the like, then let him and his Bay Street hirelings shoulder all of the risk for what could be an executive decision for a change. But leave the NEW Democrats out of it. We dont need this stale air wafting over on to our party. McGuinty's going to have a lot more on his plate than pandering to the anti-Catholic bigots next election.

Unionist

"Anti-Catholic bigots!"

Is that a major problem in Ontario these days?

A lot of the street and TTC shootings attributable to those roving anti-Papist gangs?

Vandalizing Catholic cemeteries and ripping crucifixes off walls, are they?

Hang on while I check my calendar... whoops, it's 2009!

But thanks for the memories, Fidel!

 

Fidel

I think that this "issue" would be better sold as a progressive leftist policy and not the election breaker that someone described above. In all likelihood, the 22 percent who voted Liberal last election will not be swinging NDP if our party relies on this one to put us over the top. Personally, I dont think the ONDP will be able to appeal to very many of those relentless voters in the large minority.

The ONDP needs to appeal to younger voters not the grey hairs whove voted old line party all their lives. This is not a fresh new idea in Ontario and therefore, I dont believe it will speak to those 4 million or so Ontarians who didnt vote last election.

janfromthebruce

 Who said anything about running on "one school system"? That is a red herring Fidel. We have lots of policies on our books that do not see the light of day during the election - thus we pick in choose which ones we campaign on. It would be good to have a policy that the majority support but we don't have to give it top billing.

And you are right, young people don't care - hence the old "religious wars" are passe - they'd rather the "saved money in duplicate infrastructure" go to retrofitting school buildings and making them green friendly, and not having to do endless fundraising. 

And as for ETFO, well they are in bargaining and that is their "pitch." But is the main problem - no!

______________________________________________________________________________________ Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!

Unionist

Fidel wrote:

Maybe if we "throw the priests and nuns out of our public schools", as unionist mentioned a while ago, ...

Still obsessing over that image, eh? Laughing

Perhaps I was a bit hasty. Just turn off the money tap. They'll be gone of their own accord in no time flat.

 

Fidel

Maybe if we "throw the priests and nuns out of our public schools", as unionist mentioned a while ago, and we pawn off the building of new schools with McGuinty's AFP's, money(and debt) will suddenly grow on private money trees for new infrastructure and public-private services. I dont want to be involved in this neoliberalized race to the bottom. We cant run public services according to a neoliberal business model, and I just think we shouldnt be helping rightwing ideologues in Pinocchio's Liberal government to do it either. This government already doesnt properly fund a slew of important public services.

Fidel

We did have nuns in public schools when my dad and his brothers came to Northern Ontario from Montreal. But that was in the 1920s. I suppose they were still in schools for some time after that. My father liked telling the story about flipping a nun arse over tea kettle in the bowels of the school, all over an accusation and undeserved strapping. Three local boys ganged up on my dad, the new kid from Montreal, because he had nice clothes on. Appaerntly he beat hell out of them, too, and one of them retold the same story at dad's funeral. We couldnt believe it all those years.

Lord Palmerston

janfromthebruce wrote:
Who said anything about running on "one school system"? That is a red herring Fidel. We have lots of policies on our books that do not see the light of day during the election - thus we pick in choose which ones we campaign on. It would be good to have a policy that the majority support but we don't have to give it top billing.

Well according to the "No We Can't" wing of the ONDP even if it's a minor issue, the Liberals will jump on it and cost the NDP votes, thereby depriving people of hearing "the more pressing issues."   Supposedly the NDP is all set to deliver the most amazing, dynamic, progressive platform, etc. but they can't come into power and do all these wonderful things if there's as much as a sentence about separate schools.

 

Fidel

I think it's a gift for the Liberals, and they should run with it next election. They'll prolly steal a bunch of votes from the Tories for it, too. Luck to them, and let them do battle for progressive old line party supporters who always vote rain or shine. And if the ONDP must represent a protest vote for wayward old line party supporters with kids and grandkids in separate schools by the NDP remaining sub-neutral on the issue, then it's a chance I think we should take. It's dirty, I know, but the last week of the last election was pretty nonsensical as far as I could tell.

Fidel

I think it's a gift for the Liberals, and they should run with it next election. They'll prolly steal a bunch of votes from the Tories for it, too. Luck to them, and let them do battle for progressive old line party supporters who always vote rain, snow or shine. And if the ONDP must represent a protest vote for wayward old line party supporters with kids and grandkids in separate schools by the NDP remaining sub-neutral on the issue, then it's a chance I think we should take. It's dirty, I know, but the last week of the last election was pretty nonsensical as far as I could tell.

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