ONDP: Can Balance a Budget in Heels!

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Fidel

I've been to Toronto a handful of times. Royal York hotel a few times, train station, and a club in Scarborough once. I know Pearson airport a lot better than Toronto itself.

aka Mycroft

Right, so when can I expect your apology? Or are you too small to admit that you were wrong and just spent the past hour or so digging yourself into a hole?

JimWaterloo

I saw them and I don't remember the writing on the top. 

Lou Arab Lou Arab's picture

aka Mycroft wrote:

But anyway Lou, if you are insisting the posters must be fake you're only proving the point that whoever in the Leader's Office, Party Office and/or the provincial executive who approved them made a serious mistake. If this is seriously the product of the party's best efforts in campaign messaging there's a big problem since "vote for us, we like business, balance budgets and are against spending" doesn't actually give anyone any reason to vote NDP. What the NDP has to do is offer something other parties won't or can't offer, such as free denticare, free tuition, public auto insurance or some other real social gain for working people and the poor. Promising to be better liberals than the Liberals or even better fiscal conservatives than the Tories is not the way to go.

What the hell?

I asked a question. It was answered.  I haven't commented since.  Why direct the rant at me?

 

Fidel

JimWaterloo wrote:

I saw them and I don't remember the writing on the top.

Okay, so we have one other person verifying that there were posters.  But he doesn't remember seeing the writing at the top of them.

Fidel

aka Mycroft wrote:

Right, so when can I expect your apology? Or are you too small to admit that you were wrong and just spent the past hour or so digging yourself into a hole?

So are we ever going to see these posters again? Or do they amount to so much ghostware?

I think you owe all of us an apology for simply asking you for some kind of verification and receiving a stream of abuse instead. No thanks, life's hard enough.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Fidel, you are trolling and derailing this thread and insulting and abusing other babblers. The photos are clearly real. If you have nothing to say about the substance of this thread, stay out of it.

Michael Laxer Michael Laxer's picture

There is no question the posters are real. They are all over Facebook, including on my page.

As I am friends with the entire caucus and a couple dozen people on exec I am quite certain that they would have contacted me to tell me I had been the victim of a hoax and would have told the many others who have shared the links.

Further, other people, in the comments on Facebook, have confirmed seeing them. And WITH the slogans on top. You can find these comments on facebook if you look.

Fidel, as you essentially called the guy who took the pictures a liar, who was hurling abuse? You continued even after he said he had taken them, where, and that they were not fake. This would piss anyone off.

I certainly hope we never see them again, for if these are to be campaign posters we are screwed.

But they are real, so why not discuss the posters and what they indicate policy wise and tone wise and if they are a good idea as it was the ONDP that produced them.

aka Mycroft

Lou Arab wrote:

aka Mycroft wrote:

But anyway Lou, if you are insisting the posters must be fake you're only proving the point that whoever in the Leader's Office, Party Office and/or the provincial executive who approved them made a serious mistake. If this is seriously the product of the party's best efforts in campaign messaging there's a big problem since "vote for us, we like business, balance budgets and are against spending" doesn't actually give anyone any reason to vote NDP. What the NDP has to do is offer something other parties won't or can't offer, such as free denticare, free tuition, public auto insurance or some other real social gain for working people and the poor. Promising to be better liberals than the Liberals or even better fiscal conservatives than the Tories is not the way to go.

What the hell?

I asked a question. It was answered.  I haven't commented since.  Why direct the rant at me?

 

Sorry, that was aimed at Fidel.

aka Mycroft

But anyway Fidel, if you are insisting the posters must be fake you're only proving the point that whoever in the Leader's Office, Party Office and/or the provincial executive who approved them made a serious mistake. If this is seriously the product of the party's best efforts in campaign messaging there's a big problem since "vote for us, we like business, balance budgets and are against spending" doesn't actually give anyone any reason to vote NDP. What the NDP has to do is offer something other parties won't or can't offer, such as free denticare, free tuition, public auto insurance or some other real social gain for working people and the poor. Promising to be better liberals than the Liberals or even better fiscal conservatives than the Tories is not the way to go.

Sunday Hat

I think it's reasonable to assume they're real and are a relatively light-hearted attempt to prove to the world that New Democrats aren't a bunch of self-righteous zealots who don't think women who wear high-heels are monsters, that all business is evil, that budgets should always be in deficit... etc. By being a bit tongue in cheek it also attacks the stereotype that New Dems are a bunch of humourless scowlers.

After reading this thread I can't imagine WHY these stereotypes exist.

For what it's worth, the NDP is still opposing the corporate tax cuts, the public sector wage freeze, the Chamber of Commerce's HST, nuclear power etc etc. Not that policy actually matters when we can have a serious debate about posters.

 

Sunday Hat
Fidel

Michael Laxer wrote:
Fidel, as you essentially called the guy who took the pictures a liar, who was hurling abuse? You continued even after he said he had taken them, where, and that they were not fake. This would piss anyone off.

No it was a reasonable assumption as there was nothing in the photos depicting where they were setup or anything much at all. I really don't think we'll be seeing those posters again except maybe on Facebook for some reason.  

 

Stuart_Parker

The idea of portraying the party leader as coupon-clipper in heels spouting Ginger Rogers feminism is a new low in NDP gender politics. I expect, and routinely get, more impressive rhetoric of female empowerment from the Mama Grizzly caucus of the Republicans. Voters who want fond lighthearted nostalgia for the good old days of the 50s are a small demographic, thoroughly sewn-up by Hudak.

aka Mycroft

Fidel wrote:

Michael Laxer wrote:
Fidel, as you essentially called the guy who took the pictures a liar, who was hurling abuse? You continued even after he said he had taken them, where, and that they were not fake. This would piss anyone off.

No it was a reasonable assumption as there was nothing in the photos depicting where they were setup or anything much at all. I really don't think we'll be seeing those posters again except maybe on Facebook for some reason.  

 

Yes, that would be because they went down like a lead balloon. Regardless, they are indicative of what the party leadership is thinking and what we might expect in the campaign next year unless there's a major rethink.

Fidel

And so if those posters won't be showing up anywhere except FB anytime soon, there is no need to even discuss them.

For all intents and purposes, they don't exist.

Evening Star

Sunday Hat wrote:

I think it's reasonable to assume they're real and are a relatively light-hearted attempt to prove to the world that New Democrats aren't a bunch of self-righteous zealots who don't think women who wear high-heels are monsters, that all business is evil, that budgets should always be in deficit... etc. By being a bit tongue in cheek it also attacks the stereotype that New Dems are a bunch of humourless scowlers.

After reading this thread I can't imagine WHY these stereotypes exist.

For what it's worth, the NDP is still opposing the corporate tax cuts, the public sector wage freeze, the Chamber of Commerce's HST, nuclear power etc etc. Not that policy actually matters when we can have a serious debate about posters.

It's possible to get what the posters are going for and still think they're stupid and trying way too hard.

How often do you see Conservative ad campaigns that light-heartedly target only the crassest stereotypes that their enemies might hold? ("Stephen Harper: Loves the arts. And cries. In French"? OK, OK, I'm exhausted and improvising.) Why let your opponents set the terms of the discussion?

Stuart_Parker

Fidel wrote:

And so if those posters won't be showing up anywhere except FB anytime soon, there is no need to even discuss them.

For all intents and purposes, they don't exist.

I also understand that we have always been at war with Oceania.

Polunatic2

Ignore the troll. 

Cueball Cueball's picture

Evening Star wrote:

Sunday Hat wrote:

I think it's reasonable to assume they're real and are a relatively light-hearted attempt to prove to the world that New Democrats aren't a bunch of self-righteous zealots who don't think women who wear high-heels are monsters, that all business is evil, that budgets should always be in deficit... etc. By being a bit tongue in cheek it also attacks the stereotype that New Dems are a bunch of humourless scowlers.

After reading this thread I can't imagine WHY these stereotypes exist.

For what it's worth, the NDP is still opposing the corporate tax cuts, the public sector wage freeze, the Chamber of Commerce's HST, nuclear power etc etc. Not that policy actually matters when we can have a serious debate about posters.

It's possible to get what the posters are going for and still think they're stupid and trying way too hard.

How often do you see Conservative ad campaigns that light-heartedly target only the crassest stereotypes that their enemies might hold? ("Stephen Harper: Loves the arts. And cries. In French"? OK, OK, I'm exhausted and improvising.) Why let your opponents set the terms of the discussion?

Yeah. It's like campaigning for the right.

Like: "Stephen Harper: Sociopath? No. Just a little eccentric!"

They just got all caught up in Rob Ford's victory, and are taking advises from some spin doctor types telling them they have to change their messaging, because some desk jockey PR flack's are too lazy to get off their ass and mobilize their voters.

genstrike

When reading babble, a good policy is to pretend that Fidel doesn't exist.

Sunday Hat

I think that's a legitimate critique Evening Star.

I think Stuart lecturing a party with a female leader, female Provincial Secretary and female President on good gender politics is pretty funny.

 

More on the women Stuart intends to lecture about gender:

 

Darlene Lawson, provincial secretary: "Darlene Lawson is a feminist pioneer who has fought on the frontlines for social justice for women for over three decades.  With boundless passion, determination and creative vision, she has broken new ground and championed issues before they were part of public discourse.  In her efforts to expose gender-based inequities, change policies and create opportunities for the betterment of women, whether it be the treatment of women in prison, starting a women's shelter, initiating a counselling and support service for lesbians, getting women elected to public office, or providing leadership to women's services, she has effected social change for women.  This legacy makes her the recipient of the 2007 YWCA Toronto Woman of Distinction Award for Social Justice."

 

 

Andrea Horwath, Leader: "In 1996 Horwath earned a certificate of achievement in anti-racism training, and was an organizer of Hamilton's Days of Action campaign against provincial government cutbacks announced by Mike Harris. These cuts were a result of the federal Liberal government, headed by Jean Chretien, cutting transfer payments to Ontario. That year she received the Woman of the Year Award in Public Affairs from the Hamilton Status of Women Committee, in recognition of her work in the community."

 

If anyone can provide a bio of Sandra Clifford I'd love to see it posted. I'm sure she's been working with Republicans and pro-lifers at the Ontario Federation of Labour. 

mahmud

 

Does that means that Jim Coyle's warm comments nullify the inputs of these Babblers who sweat, bleed and spend for the ONDP ?

Results for Ontarians? Very unique and ONDP exclusive!  Ask Hudak and McGuinty if they are interested in results for Ontarians. They might say "No, that's the NDP platform!"

 

 

Unionist

What I found additonally offensive about these posters was the attempt to portray the ONDP as friendly to business, economically conservative, and not too hung up on the environment. What about funding religious schools... or is that one coming?

 

Sunday Hat

Coyle's comments provide some context. Earlier in the thread people were claiming that "Not your grandfather's NDP" was about digging up Tommy Douglas and pissing on the corpse.

And, seriously, bleed for the NDP? I'm with you on spending and sweating but... bleeding? You're not going into the jungle, you're dropping leaflets.

Sunday Hat

never mind

JimWaterloo

I'm waiting to confirm.  As the convention continued today, most are probably too tired to check out this board.  I am fairyly sure that the comments on top were added after and I was wondering why I saw someone taking pictures.

Polunatic2

I don't like the ads but I do continue to like Horwath and hope to see an improved performance for the ONDP next year. For one thing, she's probably the only elected leader of a political party in Canada to support the Canadian Civil Liberties Association call for a public inquiry by into the police brutality and abuse of democratic rights that occurred during the G20 (Elizabeth May also supports the CCLU call). This may not resonate as a major with voters outside Toronto but it says a lot about Horwath's character and means something to me. 

aka Mycroft

Jim, I know the posters are embarassing but this sort of denialism is even moreso. Hope you dropped by the Chestnut Tree Cafe during the weekend.

Polunatic2

Why would there be four of them if there was no writing on the top? They'd all be the same. 

The real game being played here is to shoot the messenger and make him prove his innocence. I've seen that tactic at play all too often. 

mahmud

Sunday Hat wrote:

Coyle's comments provide some context. Earlier in the thread people were claiming that "Not your grandfather's NDP" was about digging up Tommy Douglas and pissing on the corpse.

And, seriously, bleed for the NDP? I'm with you on spending and sweating but... bleeding? You're not going into the jungle, you're dropping leaflets.

 

Actually I did bleed (in Sudbury) in a rush to post  all my assigned singns before I took the train for an out of town function. I also had my accent mocked and had a rabid right winger spit in my face, calling me "commie"!

BTW: canvassing (with or without a candidate) and dopping leaflets are different things.

Fidel

Cueball, I'm sincerely sorry for offending your Afghan holy ol' anticommunist jihadi warriors and right wing misogynists in the extreme, the mooj. I feel really badly now.

Sunday Hat

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that many a New Dem, and many many female New Dems, think there are better ways to spend their time then getting e-shrieked at by you CB.

Is denialism a word?

Cueball Cueball's picture

Sunday Hat wrote:

I think that's a legitimate critique Evening Star.

I think Stuart lecturing a party with a female leader, female Provincial Secretary and female President on good gender politics is pretty funny.

 

More on the women Stuart intends to lecture about gender:

That makes you the first woman to come on to this thread and defend these ads from a feminist standpoint.

Life, the unive...

My feminist partner and my feminist daughter think they are brilliant and set Andrea Horwath apart from Dalton and Tim.  They even used the word empowering when I showed them to them.  But they are not old men, so what could they possibly know.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Life, the universe, everything wrote:

My feminist partner and my feminist daughter think they are brilliant and set Andrea Horwath apart from Dalton and Tim.  They even used the word empowering when I showed them to them.  But they are not old men, so what could they possibly know.

"Some of my best friends are..."

Cueball Cueball's picture

Sunday Hat wrote:
I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that many a New Dem, and many many female New Dems, think there are better ways to spend their time then getting e-shrieked at by you CB.
<p>Is denialism a word?

I'm not shrieking at anyone! My reaction was "ROFL". See my opening post. It still is. It's you who is having the hissy-fit.

Kloch

Apparently, this brand, spankin' new NDP's strategy is going to try to get elected by trying to appeal to voters who hate them, and everything they stand for.

Life, the unive...

 

Cueball wrote:

Life, the universe, everything wrote:

My feminist partner and my feminist daughter think they are brilliant and set Andrea Horwath apart from Dalton and Tim.  They even used the word empowering when I showed them to them.  But they are not old men, so what could they possibly know.

"Some of my best friends are..."

 

fuck off asshat

Of course you will be allowed this behaviour with impunity. Why in the hell would I make that up? I saw this thread and showed them the pictures to see what they thought. They, like most women are too smart to play with bullies like you. As a man I am apparently too stupid.

Cueball Cueball's picture

That is giving them the benefit of the doubt, I think it indicates that they are small "c" conservatives.

Kloch

Life, the universe, everything wrote:

My feminist partner and my feminist daughter think they are brilliant and set Andrea Horwath apart from Dalton and Tim.  They even used the word empowering when I showed them to them.  But they are not old men, so what could they possibly know.

Hypothetically speaking, couldn't Andrea also balance a budget in running shoes?

But I digress, the more pertinent question is: How is using right-wing sloganeering empowering to women?  The whole campaign is utilizes campaign slogans that are directly understood as code words for attacks on government services through tax cuts.  If you find that empowering, then I guess you find Margaret Thatcher or Kim Campbell empowering.

Sunday Hat

My apologies. But... hissy-fit?

mahmud

Fidel wrote:

Cueball, I'm sincerely sorry for offending your Afghan holy ol' anticommunist jihadi warriors and right wing misogynists in the extreme, the mooj. I feel really badly now.

Fidel,

Mujahid (pl. mujahideen) means combatant, militant, fighter, in arabic. Has nothing to do with right wing or left wing. This mooj word is a racial slur used to denigrate, dehumanize  Arab/Muslim militants.

Keep using it, It is your right to freedom of expression! And since you seem keen and determined, you may as well alternate it with "ragheads", "camel jockeys", "sand niggers" and I am sure those who fed you the word "mooj" would be happy to suply you with even more...

Life, the unive...

That's okay Sunday Hat these men know what is sexist or not.  So they are free to use hissy-fit in a thread decrying the sexism they see in other. 

JALL

This is a disaster but I am more surprised that some of you are so surprised by these posters. Andrea's tyrant for chief of staff has being driving downthis deadend for a year. She has forgotten that a party, especially this party, is only as good as its people. She has been purging her people, especially the left in a neurotic attempt to control all that she surveys.

There was such a backlash at provincial council over these posters--which were meant to be the triumphal unveilling of the New New Democratic Party (along with the squashing of TYND) with fanfare, that they were soon removed. Wonder how much these cost?

Seems the chief of staff and her cabal are intent on pushing folks to vote Liberal--why on earth would anyone vote NDP if they can get the same thing by voting Liberal and ensure the Cons don't win government at the same time?

Way to go GY!

Life, the unive...

You know I have come to the conclusion that if the self-appointed abitrators of what is left or not on babble think something is a bad idea- it probably is in fact the best one that hasever come along given how poor their track record has been over the years.

Just like all those folks who thinking fighting the regressive HST is a bad thing.  Don't have a clue about the real lives of real working people.

What a joke babble has become.  Please feel free to delete my account.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Yes. I do appoint myself the arbiter of my opinions.

Kloch

I take back my earlier comment: political slogans that are used to justify attacks on government services and tax cuts are empowering to women... wealthy, upper and upper-middle class women.  

I stand corrected...

Unionist

This is the same desperate messaging that Paul Summerville impressed upon the federal party in the December 2005 election.

I too have respect and hope for Andrea Horwath, based on her origins and some courageous stands she has taken. But if she listens to the cynical wannabe Liberal spin doctors, she is doomed.

This is not, I hope, my grandchild's NDP!

 

Sunday Hat

Kloch wrote:
But I digress, the more pertinent question is: How is using right-wing sloganeering empowering to women?  The whole campaign is utilizes campaign slogans that are directly understood as code words for attacks on government services through tax cuts.  If you find that empowering, then I guess you find Margaret Thatcher or Kim Campbell empowering.

Right-wing sloganeering? Did I miss something?

I'd rather not re-state that these are posters and the NDP policies are still pretty far on the left-wing of debate (cancelling corporate tax cuts, the government's wage freeze, halting nuclear expansion, etc,)

But, seriously, are people really grumbling, "Business IS a four letter word" "I don't ever want a balanced budget"? I mean... are New Democrats really as far into cloud cuckooland as their right-wing critics claim they are?

I don't want to alarm any bleeding socialist pursists but most socialist governments balance budgets and work with business. I'm not just talking NDP governments I'm talking Hugo Chavez and Evo Morales.

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