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Wait, so when did Andrea write this letter? There is no date on it. Clearly Cheri didn't get the memo.
Notice how Stockholm always puts "Zionist" in quotes?
Yeah aka Mycroft, what's the story behind that letter? Can they read it out in the legislature?
That letter from Horwath is excellent news. But it still leaves some questions unanswered, such as how it is that the motion could have passed unanimously unless all the NDP members present voted for it. Unless Di Novo was the only member present?
Seriously, I'm dying for a reason to back down here. If the ONDP has some sort of explanation for their actions yesterday, I'd jump at them. I was serious when I said was I feeling really disheartened and disempowered after they voted with the Conservatives yesterday on this.
From what I've heard, it's rare for MPPs to show up for votes on private members' motions. Hence only 30 votes on the motion.
Also, there is no record of who voted and how for voice votes.
Which makes me wonder even more why Di Novo would bother showing up and making such a speech, and standing with Conservatives who are accusing activists of "hate speech".
But if she was the only one, or only one of a couple, and the ONDP distances themselves from her comments smearing us and their support for that motion, that would be enough for me. As I said, I certainly don't relish the thought of not voting in a provincial election, but I won't vote for anyone who accuses me or my comrades of anti-semitic hate speech because we use the term "apartheid" to describe what's going on in Israel.
I'd like a clarification also.
Andrea was in the Leg for the vote as far as I know and was told. Surely if that's so and if this letter is genuine she would have voted against. Something strange here.
Stockholm:
". When you start using incendiary language all it does is end any possible dialogue and cause a backlash among the very people who have to be swayed."
How does this sound? "Iran: Islamo - Fascism" Week?"
Or "Dafur-Genocide week"
It's the double standard tha is also an isue:
From the Ottawa Citizen:
The dark side of a yearly ritualThis isn’t about Jews, say the organizers. It’s about Zionists. Problem is, the activist groups behind Israeli Apartheid Week are doing everything to erase the distinction........
The classic giveaway of prejudice is holding the hated group to a double standard. Israel is denounced for its designation as a Jewish state, with a Star of David on its flag. Israel's accusers never complain that Muslim states have the half-crescent symbol of Islam in their flags. As the legal scholar Robbie Sabel notes: "For various Arab states to denote themselves Arab Republics is not objectionable, but a Jewish state is racism and apartheid."
Saudi Arabia officially prohibits the practice of non-Muslim religions; Egypt has persecuted its minority Christians; Turkey and other Muslim countries make sure the Kurds remain stateless and dispossessed -- and campus activists couldn't care less. It's Israel, and Israel alone, that consumes them. "
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/dark+side+yearly+ritual/2608276/story....
I too heard she was in the Legislature but even if not Cheri was surely chosen to speak on behalf of the ONDP. The Leader had to know that she was speaking in favour. This letter is bizarre if true and downright nasty if made up.
Here to try and muddy the waters, Peech? When all else fails, fall back to the "sure we kill innocent people, steal their lands, bruatlize and starve them, but, hey!, we're in 'good' company"?
The fact of the matter is that Israel is engaged in the ethnic cleansing, brutalization, and regular mass killings of an entire people and represents a clear and present danger to all of its neighbours. Further, to suggest that those who criticize institutionalized Zionist racism are silent on human rights abuses in other nations is a pernicous lie (nevermind that no one gives a shit what's on the Israeli flag). Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and many other nations involved in human rights abuses are Israel's allies and friends in the region. It is the company the Zionists keep.
FM, please don't engage some defender of Israeli mass murderers in this thread, no matter how disgusting and anti-human they sound. Just let them self-destruct. We need to understand what the ONDP has done here. The only thing I know for sure right now is that Cheri DiNovo should be condemned. Other than that, it's not even clear if there was another NDP member in the chamber at the time.
It's beginning to sound as though DiNovo was a willing patsy.
I think this is an object lesson in how little people understand our legislative system and the difference between private members business and when MPPs act as a caucus.
Perhaps people should have read my post #33 in the previous thread. Private members business means exactly that and in those times MPPs are not acting as agents of their caucus but as individual members, which is why it was and is wrong to blame any party for the vote.
The other thing that happens, usually anyways, on motions is that the vote is a voice vote and not recorded. How anyone could know who voted in support or against would be a mystery to me. And just because a member was in the Leg at the time does not mean they voted. The Speaker asks for those in favour of the motion - MPPs mutter "Aye" and then asks for those against. The Speaker then declares that "in my opinion the ayes have it" or the nayes and the motion is carried or not. It would be almost impossible to guarentee the motion was unanimous since the vote is not recorded. When the House or Legislature wants to express unanimous support motions are usually worded in such as way that makes that clear. Something like the "Legislative Assembly of Ontario unanimously supports the right to drink a beer or two after winning a gold medal..."
The Hansard certainly does not claim the motion was supported unanimously, only that the motion was carried. There is also a break of something like an hour and half break between the debate on the motion and the vote. MPPs from all parties would have been moving in and out of the Leg as other business was coming up or ending, or if they wanted/needed to talk to another MPP. So again it would be pretty hard to say who voted for anything. The only thing we actually know is that Ms Di Novo acting as a private member expressed confused support for the motion along with members from the other two parties in the Legislature.
Anyway carry on.
It was reported as unanimous and backed by the NDP and an NDP member was well quoted.
Lord know reports are always 100% accurate. Hansard, the official record of the Legislature, does not show a unanimous vote only that it passed. Anything else is hearsay and may or may not be accurate. I've seen enough completely wrong reporting in my days to not put faith in such claims. So we have no idea who from what caucuses voted for anything.
I also see no evidence that Di Novo was speaking on behalf of caucus. In fact Horwath's letter seems to demostrate she was not.
But let's not let anything like that get in the way of an electronic pile-on.
ETA
Actually I went back to read the linked article again. It does not say the vote was unanimous, only that "Ontario MPPs of all political stripes have banded together" That certainly does not indicate it was unanimous, or that it was officially supported by the NDP caucus, only that MPPs from all caucuses voted together to pass the motion. Those are significantly different things. If it had been unanimous I would have to think any report would have spelled that out specifically as it would be noteworthy.
So it still seems as if one MPP, as a private member decided to support the motion, and that there was no caucus support as revealed by Horwath's letter.
The open letter was sent today to people who had emailed an NDP MPP to complain about their support of yesterday's motion. I assume it was written today in response to the uproar.
I would assume so too. But it does reveal that this was not a caucus decision to support and maybe even that the rest of caucus was a bit blindsided, but that would be pure speculation.
I'm very relieved to see Andrea Horwath's letter (irrespective of whether I agree with some details in it or not). It sets the record straight and takes a stand which we would never see from the Liberals or Conservatives. One day, we may be lucky enough to see the federal party do likewise.
As for Cheri DiNovo, she deserves to be reviled for her hateful words, spoken under the cover of "love" and "peace". And some Jew should explain to her how Judaism works, before she makes a fool of herself again.
When I raise the issue of growing Zionist influence in Canada and Ontario, an NDPMPP I have known for some time tells me that while they may agree with me, any significant political moves or statements made against this by him or his party and "their lobby would crush us." If he is right then we obviously have a serious problem, both with the power of Israel to have its way in our domestic politics and with our representatives who won't publically acknowledge there is a problem, let alone take any action to remedy it. Here in Ontario a good place to start by way of identifying sources of pro-Israeli influence would be the following organization:
Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Centre for Holocaust Studies Commends the Government of Ontario and MPP Peter Shurman...
http://au.sys-con.com/node/1299625
www.friendsofsimonwiesenthalcenter.com
In response to similiar concerns about growing Israeli Zionist power in Britain the following documentary may be of use:
http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/big-story-the-jewish-lobby-in-britain.html (vid)
According to this David Akin retweet of a tweet from Alykhan Velshi, expect a motion in the House of Commons to condemn Israeli Apartheid Week similar to the one we just saw in the Ontario legislature.
In response to similiar concerns about growing Israeli Zionist power in Britain the following documentary may be of use:
http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/big-story-the-jewish-lobby-in-britain.html (vid)
Any reference to their being a "JEWISH" lobby is pure unadulerated anti-semitism - the real kind. There may be a "pro-Israel" lobby - but being Jewish is a religion/ethnicity and as we all know - many Jews have no interest in Israel.
their title not mine
Gotta agree somewhat with Stockholm. As for Gilad Atzmon, he spends far too much time for my taste writing about "Jewish tribalism". Being Jewish doesn't give you the licence to peddle antisemitic tropes. He also spends far too much time attacking anti-Zionist non-religious socialist Jews for my taste. If we're going to win, we need the broadest possible alliance - not just an alliance of Gilad Atzmon. He does, however, play a mean jazz sax.
Back to the topic - is Jack Layton capable of writing a letter like Andrea Horwath's if and when the time comes (see pogge's post above)?
Stockholm:
That's the whole point of this argument. It's not antisemitic to criticie Israel or be an antiZionist (as we all know.) But many antiSemites feel free to proliferate under the guise of anti-Zionism.
" So am I saying Israel is a beacon of enlightenment and that anyone who disagrees is an anti-Semite?
No, I’m not. Israel is a flawed country, as are all countries. Criticizing Israel does not make one an anti-Semite anymore than criticizing the government of France makes one anti-French. But it’s one thing to criticize France and another to declare the French nation illegitimate and to advocate its dismantling.
For that’s what Israeli apartheid week is about. As Michael Ignatieff noted during apartheid week last year, “International law defines ‘Apartheid’ as a crime against humanity. Labeling Israel an ‘Apartheid’ state is a deliberate attempt to undermine the legitimacy of the Jewish state itself.”
It is the fanatical, disproportionate focus on Israel — no other country is subjected to a week-long hatefest at university campuses — that points to something darker going on.
The classic giveaway of prejudice is holding the hated group to a double standard. Israel is denounced for its designation as a Jewish state, with a Star of David on its flag. Israel’s accusers never complain that Muslim states have the half-crescent symbol of Islam in their flags. As the legal scholar Robbie Sabel notes: “For various Arab states to denote themselves Arab Republics is not objectionable, but a Jewish state is racism and apartheid.”
http://tinyurl.com/yh9nn9r
When I raise the issue of growing Zionist influence in Canada and Ontario, an NDPMPP I have known for some time tells me that while they may agree with me, any significant political moves or statements made against this by him or his party and "their lobby would crush us." If he is right then we obviously have a serious problem, both with the power of Israel to have its way in our domestic politics and with our representatives who won't publically acknowledge there is a problem, let alone take any action to remedy it. Here in Ontario a good place to start by way of identifying sources of pro-Israeli influence would be the following organization:
Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Centre for Holocaust Studies Commends the Government of Ontario and MPP Peter Shurman...
http://au.sys-con.com/node/1299625
www.friendsofsimonwiesenthalcenter.com
In response to similiar concerns about growing Israeli Zionist power in Britain the following documentary may be of use:
http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/big-story-the-jewish-lobby-in-britain.html (vid)
Am I actually reading this??? A supposed leftist progressive suggesting that the Jews (aka Israel lobby) is somehow controlling Canadian politics??? I never honestly thought I would see such vile here. Lord help us.
So, NDPP, the frenzy-mongers are out in force - the ones who think Stephen Harper is a friend of the Jews, and Norman Finkelstein and Noam Chomsky are enemies. I noticed that the video you linked to actually is called "Israel lobby" in its Youtube version - it's just Gilad Atzmon that dubbed it "Jewish lobby" because that's the way he is.
I suggest we ignore the thread drift by the professional diverters - don't give them an inch, please - and concentrate on the drama that unfolded at Queen's Park and the risk that we may see a repetition on the Hill.
Why is it the "frenzy-mongers" can get all so hyped over a perceived slight by one person while at the same time shrugging and saying, "I don't see it," when it comes to Zionist racism imposed against an entire nation?
I read the posts above and some are so reminiscent of any other supremacist narrative. Is the State of Israel illegitimate? Maybe. If it isn't supported by the majority of its citizens and can only exist through brute force and repression, maybe it is illegitimate. But is the Jewish State illegimate? No more so than a white South Africa or any other state founded on an ethnic, linguistic, racial or religious superiority would be. If one can say the Jewish state is legitimate, then one must also say an Islamic or Aryan state is equally legitimate.
I think that such things as the Queen's Park fiasco and any varation or repetition on the Hill could serve to get the left wimping liberal types off the fence and mobilized. I think that finally Gaza shocked enough people into some kind of awareness that Israel gets away with murder only because of the strong support of Western elites. Israel, along with USA and Canada, Australia, NZ and others are euro settler states founded upon the dispossesion and genocide of the Indigenous. It should be noted that Israel is only trying to do there what was done here. It's in the club.
And of course, as must be seemingly endlessly repeated, this has nothing to do with Jewishness and everything to do with Zionism. In any case I think that enough people have figured things out enough that Zionists and their allies can look forward to a rough ride with their neocon accomplices. If the NDP decides to try to suck and blow at the same time on this issue it too can look forward to its rightful place in the dustbin of history probably sooner rather than later. Harper is very much a friend of the Zionists and very much NOT a friend of the Jews. And Gilad Atzmon does blow a mean Sax as well.
Unionist! Are you ok? It appears you're about to haemorrhage. I'm sure you feel wholly entitled in your truculent arrogance and secure in your middling intelligence, but please explain to someone not initiated in your essentialist politics what exactly DiNovo said to earn such indignation and contempt, other than to have the impudence to disagree with you regarding the use of the word apartheid. As far as I know, there is nothing her position that deviates from provincial or federal NDP policy on the use of the word apartheid. Her condemnation of the occupation is and has been unequivocal. Her work around social justice from poverty, to civil rights, to speaking up against human rights abuses is well known and I would think beyond reproach. Nonetheless, I'm sure unionist has earned the right to be totally irresponsible and discourteous. I didn't realize there was such a heavy price for disagreement around here.
I am heartened by some of the respectful and responsible comments (aka mycroft always a pleasure to read you, Bookish Agragrian thanks for interceding with some actual facts, Peech thanks for stating the obvious). But I will never go wrong overestimating the capacity of "the Left" (or do you call yourselves progressives now?) to turn on and cannibalize its own, mostly, I believe, out of its own impotent rage which it so deftly misdirects.
Whatever people's personal feelings regarding DiNovo, she did not deserve to be pilloried and reviled the way she has been in this thread. Her comments were met largely with ignorance and histrionic indignation. Since we're being a little careless with our comments, let me try. I've always loved the bravado of the largely overindulged and privileged white male lefties who have the luxury of exhibiting their bravado knowing full well that the worst they'll ever likely face is pepper spray in the eyes. Also, to the overeducated overpaid gay men who think its "progressive" to march alongside banners of Hamas, I simply invite you to take your short shorts over to Gaza and march for gay rights there.
The enemy of my enemy is not always a friend, and fundamentalism (religious, political, intellectual or otherwise) may be the greatest threat confronting this century. Thought and writing have never needed Jacques Derrida more than now.
Sorry to crash your little feeding frenzy; no worries you'll not hear from me again. And yes, I'll miss reading some of commenters around here, but I remain hopeful that the few truly responsible, accountable voices (those willing to breach the abundance of self-evidence around here) ultimately prevail.
Peace...
What an asshole.
The reason D'Novo was pilloried, and with complete justification, is because she joined with the supporters of racism and oppression to approve a statement that Israel respects human rights, providing that Palestinians are not regarded as human, and condemning activists on university campuses, where free speech and academic freedom is unassailable when racists such as Pipes and Nethanyahu are invited, for protesting racist Israeli policy as practised, or rather, applied against Palestinians.
I will never overestimate the capacity of the unjustifiably arrogant, or maybe we call you intellectually stunted these days, to retort with the pretense of actually having something meaningful to contribute.
Piss off ...
But is the Jewish State illegimate? No more so than a white South Africa or any other state founded on an ethnic, linguistic, racial or religious superiority would be. If one can say the Jewish state is legitimate, then one must also say an Islamic or Aryan state is equally legitimate.
I guess by that measure - a Tamil state would be illegitimate since its based on carving out an ethnically pure Tamil nation where the Tamils can feel superior and have a homeland - and let's not even get into what that says about Quebec nationalism. What possible explanation can there be for wanting an independent Quenec than to express the imagines ethnic, racial and linguistic superiority of the pur laine Quebecois over everyone else.
Whatever people's personal feelings regarding DiNovo, she did not deserve to be pilloried and reviled the way she has been in this thread.
I'm sorry, the Ontario legislature including DiNovo just voted to condemn me and people I'm working with. You were saying something about being pilloried and reviled?
synthome, don't post homophobic crap like this again. First and last warning.
Maysie, please don't be so hard on synthome - he/she followed me home, and I know it looks a little scruffy and mangy, but omigod it's cuuuute! Can I please keep it and play with it - pleeeeeze!?
Cognitive dissonance or irony?
The enemy of my enemy is not always a friend...
...I simply invite you to take your short shorts over to Gaza and march for gay rights there.
Also, why go to Gaza when we can stay right here and fight homophobes like you?
If the term Israel Apartheid Week were not effective, MPP Peter Shurman would not have presented a motion to essentially censure the IAW and its use of its name. The organizers could have used Palestinian Liberation Week or something else. However, no one would have been paying attention to the the organizers on the Israeli-Palestinian/Palestinian-Israeli issue.
If the IAW had a different name but still advocated divestment, sanctions, and boycotts of Israeli products and services, I would guess that Mr. Shurman would have presented a motion claiming that these actions are hurtful to freedom of speech and are also anti-Semitic.
I have mentioned on other comment boards that the boycott Israel campaign may not be as effective from Canada as it would be from Europe. We don't do much trade with Israel whereas the European countries do more. They are geographically closer to Israel. A few months ago, Israel had proposed to Fatah using an Egyptian mediator and negotiating in Egypt. Fatah prefers to use a European mediator as this would attract more attention in Europe and keeps the focus on the boycott, divestment, and sanctions campaign in Europe. If the Israeli economy goes down, Israel will eventually negotiate on terms favourable to the Palestinians.
The Ontario NDP MPPs who were presently in the legislature during the vote were probably stategically right to support the motion even if privately the may have been morally opposed. If they had actively opposed the motion, the NDP would have gained very little in terms of voter and financial support, but also faced the wrath of some fairly well-run Jewish organizations. The ONDP doesn't need to go into the next provincial election only to be distracted by an "anti-Semitic" label.
I'm sorry, the Ontario legislature including DiNovo just voted to condemn me and people I'm working with. You were saying something about being pilloried and reviled?
First, perhaps learn something about parliamentary procedure and re-read Bookish Agrarian above. You could argue that collectively parliament passed a resolution with absolutely no binding authority that condemned the use of the term apartheid and questioned if that kind of incendiary, arguably inappropriate terminology, is constructive to what I assume everyone wants, which is peace. The motion neither has any legal force nor does it condemn you personally.
Now I think it would be fair either to defend the use of the term apartheid or critique the assumption that Israel is a democratic state that respects the rule of law and human rights. Regardless, it seems the self-righteous indignation should be directed at parliament and not a personalized attack on someone who is a proven ally of the left and whom you cannot ascertain voted for the motion. Not to mention that in her hansard remarks she unequivocally lines up with the Federal NDP policy on the need for a two state solution, she condemns the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory. Having read her remarks in Hansard, I found her statement moving, eloquent, and on the mark. So a more probative question for me would be why invest so much vitriol and anger in DiNovo? There's something subterranean going on here (unconscious anti-semitism, latent sexism, I don't know, but the outrage is not commensurate with the offence).
I know, I know, I promised I'd get lost, and I will, but I thought it pertinent to respond to comments directed at me.
@Maysie: Deliberate and acknowledged provocation is to be censored, but name calling and personal attacks constitute legitimate discourse around here. No need to worry I'll happily banish myself.
@Unionist: I wouldn't have expected anything else. Either posturing as absolute authority (I love the way you speak on behalf of all Jewish tradition and quoted the definitive text of the Seder Supper. I don't know, but could there be more liberal/reform versions of the celebration?) or truculence and dismissal. In your last effort you simply chose the latter. Perhaps you could learn a few things about intellectual honesty, reverential dialogue, and common respect.
@Frustrated Mess: Care to demonstrate that any of the NDP MPP's present voted in favour of the motion? Because DiNovo concurred that the use of the term apartheid might be needlessly incendiary cannot be extrapolated to mean either that she supports all parts of Shurman's motion nor that she voted in favour of it. Also feel free to completely ignore her decades of fighting for social justice and her condemnation of the occupation of Palestinian territory. But don't let that stop the bloodletting.
Next!!!
I guess by that measure - a Tamil state would be illegitimate since its based on carving out an ethnically pure Tamil nation where the Tamils can feel superior and have a homeland - and let's not even get into what that says about Quebec nationalism. What possible explanation can there be for wanting an independent Quenec than to express the imagines ethnic, racial and linguistic superiority of the pur laine Quebecois over everyone else.
If a Tamil state could only exist by oppressing and brutalizing the majority, and by providing citizenship, political rights, protection of law, and other civil rights only to those defined as "Tamil", then you may be right in questioning its legitimacy although the majority population would likely already be doing so. Ditto for an independent Quebec.
If you wish to argue that minority populations have a right to use force, terror, and political repression to maintain ethnic and political superiority over the majority, then I would argue history is not on your side. There are many, many examples of such states in history and while some have enjoyed lengthy lifespans, very few have been able to last for very, very long. No state founded on the violent repression of a majority population and permanent war with its neighbours will enjoy permanence.
Don't take my word for it, read history.
The Ontario NDP MPPs who were presently in the legislature during the vote were probably stategically right to support the motion even if privately the may have been morally opposed. If they had actively opposed the motion, the NDP would have gained very little in terms of voter and financial support, but also faced the wrath of some fairly well-run Jewish organizations. The ONDP doesn't need to go into the next provincial election only to be distracted by an "anti-Semitic" label.
I couldn't disagree more. First, the ONDP has demonstrated a lack of principles and second it has contributed to the closure of debate. The smear of "anti-semitism" with regard to institutionalized Israeli racism serves to both dilute the meaning of anti-semtism and to cast a chill over honest and serious debate with regard to Israel's serious, flagrant, and criminal human rights abuses and war crimes.
The ONDP has done a great disservice to everyone who cares not just about Palestinian rights but all human rights. They have just played into the game that a violent abuser has a legitimate interest in maintaining the state of the abused. So, to offer a hypothetical, the slave master has a legitimate economic interest that must be addressed by the slave if he or she is to ever be free. For an actual example, think of Haiti and its long hostory of poverty, suffering, and deprivation resulting directly from being saddled with paying reparations to France for having deprived France of the benefits of the Haitian slave colony. That is the paradigm that the ONDP voted to support.
On Atzmon - he actually is an anti-semite and a rather crude on at that having taken a few stabs at Holocaust denial and also argued that Jews ritually murdered Christian babies. He's also reportedly converted to Christianity so he has all the anti-Semitic zeal of the convert.
In other news
Conservative Member of Parliament Denounces Israeli Apartheid Week
Statement by Tim Uppal, MP for Edmonton-Sherwood Park on Israeli Apartheid Week
Ottawa, February 26, 2010 - Our Conservative Government has taken a zero-tolerance approach to all forms of hatred, including anti-Semitism. Standing side by side with the State of Israel, our friend and ally in the democratic family of nations, we unequivocally condemn efforts to single out and attack the Jewish people and their homeland.
Next week, after consultations with all political parties, I will proudly introduce the following motion before the House of Commons:
"That this House considers itself to be a friend of the State of Israel; that this House is concerned about expressions of anti-Semitism under the guise of "Israeli Apartheid Week"; and that this House explicitly condemns any action in Canada as well as internationally that would equate the State of Israel with the rejected and racist policy of apartheid."
On university campuses, Israeli Apartheid Week promotes the one-sided, intolerant, and unbalanced position that Israel is a racist state. This has helped create a public opinion environment where Jewish students who happen to also support Israel are subject to condemnation and opprobrium.
Canadians are free within the bounds of our law to express their opinions. At the same time, it's important for Members of Parliament to stand up and publicly condemn efforts to single out one group of people for harsh treatment. I sincerely hope that all Members of Parliament will support this motion.
Conservative Member of Parliament Denounces Israeli Apartheid Week
Statement by Tim Uppal, MP for Edmonton-Sherwood Park on Israeli Apartheid Week
At the same time, it's important for Members of Parliament to stand up and publicly condemn efforts to single out one group of people for harsh treatment.
And yet the harsh treatment of one group of people, Palestinians, by the racist state of Israel seems to have missed this fellows attention. How can that be? Conservative racism and support for neo-colonial enterprises, maybe?
Students Against Israeli Apartheid Present:
complete list of speakers and events
http://www.toronto.apartheidweek.org
The Ontario NDP MPPs who were presently in the legislature during the vote were probably stategically right to support the motion even if privately the may have been morally opposed. If they had actively opposed the motion, the NDP would have gained very little in terms of voter and financial support, but also faced the wrath of some fairly well-run Jewish organizations. The ONDP doesn't need to go into the next provincial election only to be distracted by an "anti-Semitic" label.
I couldn't disagree more. (Yes, I think someone already said that.) You're suggesting that the ONDP should forget about showing leadership on an issue and instead take a completely self-serving position that involves condemning the citizens they're supposed to represent on behalf of a foreign government that continues to commit crimes in the conduct of a long, brutal and illegal military occupation. I think the people who would vote for a party like that are already spoken for. The rest of us are increasingly inclined to stay home or spoil our ballots if there's no one to vote for who rises above the level of craven opportunism and cynical political calculation on issues involving human rights.
If anything I'm angrier now than when I first read about this.
we unequivocally condemn efforts to single out and attack the Jewish people and their homeland.
Bloody hell! I had no idea that Israel was my boyfriend's "homeland". I better go tell him to immediately ditch his Canadian citizenship. He obviously did not get the memo.
Hi Pogge,
The NDP could have opposed Shurman's private member bill for the reasons you presented. The party would have needed to use a lot of resources to deal with the potential accusation that it is an anti-Semitic party. This could help or hurt the party in parts of Toronto. It would hurt the NDP in northern Ontario and parts of Hamilton where the voters place issues related to the Middle East in low priority. If there are strong spokespersons that opposed Shurman's bill, the NDP could possibly survive the anti-anti-Semitic attacks from members of the Jewish community and their supporters. Since I don't see any person in the NDP willing to take up the battle in support of IAW, I think the NDP was wise not to oppose Shurman's private member bill.
I think if I were an MPP, I might take the view that whatever I may personally think of the words used in the title of IAW - its not the place of the Ontario legislature to to be passing gratuitous resolutions telling peope what they can and cannot call their event. If a group in Caledonia decided to have a "First Nations Apartheid Week" in opposition to the blockade there or if a group have an "Iran Hates Women" week - I may find those words unnecessarily provocative and counter-productive in solving problems - but I still don't think its up to the legislature to be taking a position.
I wouldn't be surprised if Shurman moves such a motion giving the fact that the Toronto Sun's reported that Shurman has no problem with First Nations in Caledonia being accused of apartheid.
Statement by Tim Uppal, MP for Edmonton-Sherwood Park on Israeli Apartheid Week
Next week, after consultations with all political parties, I will proudly introduce the following motion before the House of Commons:
"That this House considers itself to be a friend of the State of Israel; that this House is concerned about expressions of anti-Semitism under the guise of "Israeli Apartheid Week"; and that this House explicitly condemns any action in Canada as well as internationally that would equate the State of Israel with the rejected and racist policy of apartheid."
I think the opposition parties could oppose this private member's bill if they were to offer suggestions to amend that includes requiring Canada to endorse a peaceful solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict based on the UN resolutions.
Hi Pogge,
The NDP could have opposed Shurman's private member bill for the reasons you presented. The party would have needed to use a lot of resources to deal with the potential accusation that it is an anti-Semitic party. This could help or hurt the party in parts of Toronto. It would hurt the NDP in northern Ontario and parts of Hamilton where the voters place issues related to the Middle East in low priority. If there are strong spokespersons that opposed Shurman's bill, the NDP could possibly survive the anti-anti-Semitic attacks from members of the Jewish community and their supporters. Since I don't see any person in the NDP willing to take up the battle in support of IAW, I think the NDP was wise not to oppose Shurman's private member bill.
The prudent, if cowardly, thing to do was to take no position. However, DiNovo spoke for the bill and presumably had the ok of caucus to do so on behalf of the NDP.
Is it possible to move amendments to resolutions?
Again I go to the point of how out to lunch the majority of voters are in Ontario....
Hi Pogge,
The NDP could have opposed Shurman's private member bill for the reasons you presented. The party would have needed to use a lot of resources to deal with the potential accusation that it is an anti-Semitic party. This could help or hurt the party in parts of Toronto. It would hurt the NDP in northern Ontario and parts of Hamilton where the voters place issues related to the Middle East in low priority. If there are strong spokespersons that opposed Shurman's bill, the NDP could possibly survive the anti-anti-Semitic attacks from members of the Jewish community and their supporters. Since I don't see any person in the NDP willing to take up the battle in support of IAW, I think the NDP was wise not to oppose Shurman's private member bill.
You make it sound as though there are no Jews would support and defend the NDPs position should they have taken a principled stand. There are many Jews who would disagree with you. I hope you don't speak for the ONDP as your presented defense reeks of weasely cowardice and is only annoying me more than I already am. I will not support a party too afraid of bullies to defend the weak.
Of course to put all this in perspective there probably isn't even one half of one percent of people in Ontario who give a hoot about what's going on the Middle East - let alone see it as a vote determining issue in the next Ontario election. But I've often noticed that the importance of an issue to the population at large often seem to be inversely proportional to the number of threads and postings it gets on babble.
If you have nothing to say, say nothing or go somewhere else.
I have plenty to say - you just don't agree with it. If you can't stand the heat - stay out of the kitchen.
BTW: Getting back to the larger topic. What would people think if an annual event was started entitled "Islamic Homophobia and Misogyny Week"? Would you see it as a perfectly legitimate title for an event that was well within the bounds of debate in Canada - whether ytou personally liked it or not - or would you see it as thinly veiled "islamophobia" and gratuitously inflammatory?
What if some Falun Gong supporters start a "Chinese Gestapo Week"?
Wow, just look at the type of people Cheri Di Novo has joined forces with:
Quote:
----------------
"That this House considers itself to be a friend of the State of Israel; that this House is concerned about expressions of anti-Semitism under the guise of "Israeli Apartheid Week"; and that this House explicitly condemns any action in Canada as well as internationally that would equate the State of Israel with the rejected and racist policy of apartheid."
----------------
Di Novo has given her Conservative friends ammunition to use against activists who she should be standing in solidarity with so that they can smear us with accusations of "anti-semitism", and now the federal Conservatives are ratcheting up the rhetoric.
That's pretty awesome. Thanks very much. And it seems to me that unless her party leader specifically distances the party from Di Novo's statement in the Legislature (that statement Horwath released doesn't address Di Novo's statement at all), then it's hard not to consider Di Novo's statement as being sanctioned by the ONDP. It doesn't undo the damage Di Novo has done, nor the fact that she is standing in solidarity with Conservatives instead of activists.
Hi Skinny Dipper.
Your response sounds an awful lot like those in the U.S. who try to explain why the Democrats can't really be faulted for backing down every time the Republicans feign outrage at them. The end result of that is that Democrats govern more like Republicans than like Democratic campaign literature suggested they would. My criticism stands because there would be no point in supporting an NDP that governed like Conservatives just because they did it out of fear and not ideology.
I have plenty to say - you just don't agree with it. If you can't stand the heat - stay out of the kitchen.
BTW: Getting back to the larger topic. What would people think if an annual event was started entitled "Islamic Homophobia and Misogyny Week"? Would you see it as a perfectly legitimate title for an event that was well within the bounds of debate in Canada - whether ytou personally liked it or not - or would you see it as thinly veiled "islamophobia" and gratuitously inflammatory?
What if some Falun Gong supporters start a "Chinese Gestapo Week"?
Actually you're saying nothing and contributing less. I would expect the sort of childish tripe above from under-educated Sun Media Israelil racism sycophants, but not on Babble. I had forgotten just how incredibly thick and stupid you really are.
Mods can ban be now that was a purposeful personal attack and I will stand by it as I believe every word to be accurate and truthful.
Also, to the overeducated overpaid gay men who think its "progressive" to march alongside banners of Hamas, I simply invite you to take your short shorts over to Gaza and march for gay rights there.
Injustice is injustice and it is our responsibility to confront it where we find it. Just because one group of monotheists may despise us based on their "revelations" is not sufficient reason to stand by when they are being subjected to systematic violence by a state actor. Frankly, most monotheists look pretty similar to me in this regard... whether it be Jews attacking Pride marches in Jerusalem, Muslims formally executing us in Tehran (and less formally in Baghdad), or Christians seeking to execute us in Kampala... let's just say that the monotheistic/Abrahamic faiths are, by and large, hardly friends of the LGBT communities. But this doesn't mean we get some moral "pass" that allows us to sit back and be silent when they (self-identified members of the various flavours of monotheism) are being oppressed. I find it incomprehensible to require an oppressed community to be "blameless" before expressing solidarity with them and trying to find common cause with them. Then again this lack of comprehension might be the result of my being overeducated (ha) and overpaid (my favourite) and yes, I have worn short shorts on at least a couple of occasions (even if it was several decades ago).
I agree with bagkitty here. I don't have to approve of Hamas to be allowed to protest how Palestinians are treated in the occupiued territories. I suspect that the Tamil Tigers are not exactly rah-rah about gay rights either - that doesn't mean we should look the other way when there are human rights abuses in norther Sri Lanka.
or when Cuba mistreats political prisoners...?
"I agree with bagkitty here. I don't have to approve of Hamas to be allowed to protest how Palestinians are treated in the occupiued territories. I suspect that the Tamil Tigers are not exactly rah-rah about gay rights either - that doesn't mean we should look the other way when there are human rights abuses in norther Sri Lanka."
But you must use politically correct speak.
"BTW: Getting back to the larger topic. What would people think if an annual event was started entitled "Islamic Homophobia and Misogyny Week"? Would you see it as a perfectly legitimate title for an event that was well within the bounds of debate in Canada - whether ytou personally liked it or not - or would you see it as thinly veiled "islamophobia" and gratuitously inflammatory?"
There would be endless vitriolic postings here and big tire-burning demonstrations elsewhere.
"Islamic" is not a government, idiot.
While all racists are idiots, not all idiots are racists.
"Islamic" is not a government, idiot.
Really.... how about the Islamic Republic of Iran...? Cretin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran
Well, before we get completely lost in tangents why don't we simply propose a "Misogyny and Homophobia in the Abrahamic Tradition Week" - lots of source material, no need to single out any of the big three, and we can pull in a few of the lesser known monotheistic groups too... Not only would it be more "politcally correct speak", it would be much more accurate, and would reduce the opportunities (though not eliminate them) for any one of the flavours to manipulate the theme to attack the blasphemers of one of the other flavours.
bagkitty, you are absolutley spot on. What a wonderful idea. Soon the defenders of Israeli apartheid can be condemning the feminazis for daring to examine mysogyny outside of the socially acceptable and culturally racist lens of Islamophobia. Maybe we can call it, God Hates Women Week.
or when Cuba mistreats political prisoners...?
Or when vicious empire central supports both Israeli terrorism against Palestinians and US-based terrorism against Cuba simultaneously. In which case it's our duty to attack the third political party in Ontario in protest of it all. We'll show US and Israeli hawks that they can't get away with imperialism so easily.
Okay Fidel, I am part of the way there, but at the first mention of "bourgeois decadence" I am leaving you and joining the angry mob with pitchforks and torches... we all have our breaking point.
I don't know about anyone else, but having lived with a victim of torture from the "Islamic Republic of Iran" I can also say that I have a problem with any state privileging one religion over others, and having discriminatory laws on that basis. Including Islam, Christianity, and Judaism.
Of course, if defenders of Israeli apartheid want to hold up the Islamic Republic of Iran as some sort of fabulous example of how to run government, and feel it's a good thing for Israel to emulate, then of course they're quite free to do so. And we're free to laugh at them.
This thread is going down the crapper. It is however worth discussing, but jeeze, people!
Frustrated Mess, you can't go around comparing Stockholm to Sun Media sychophants. Oh, and those other things either. As you recognise, it's bannable, but then I'd have to ban about 1/3 of the people in this miserable thread, so I'm just appealing to your higher sensibilities for the nonce.
Synthome, you promised to get lost. I know, it can be difficult. Let me help you out with that. I recall none of your previous posts here, so I'll look over them when I have time with a thought to permanance of your banishment.
Okay Fidel, I am part of the way there, but at the first mention of "bourgeois decadence" I am leaving you and joining the angry mob with pitchforks and torches... we all have our breaking point.
Well I completely and thoroughly understand why western newz media and governments won't listen to Hamas. Apparently Hamas won't agree to meet three conditions for the road map to peace, the one which the UN, USA, Russia, and Israel hammered out and was formally accepted. One requirement is that Hamas has to accept the road map, which vicious empire central in Warshington and Israel reject by caveats and addendums but only reject it as long as Hamas renounces violence and recognizes Israel. And Hamas must accept that Israel and vicious empire central in Warshington can never recognize a Palestinian state, because that would mean allowing Palestinians to live a civilized existence. So I'm all for bringing down the third party in Ontario legislature as a result. They can't be allowed to continue supporting and enabling this imperialist setup from the supreme halls of power in Toronto. Let's teach the NDP a lesson on this one. It's more clear to me now. As clear as an unmuddied lake. As clear as an azure sky in the deepest of summer.
My cousin was a victim of a murder suicide (aka. "Palestinian resistance") while she was having lunch in a restaurant . So I have a problem with anyone proclaiming that they have a right to call for the eradication of another nation state or murder it's members. Especially when it is a double standard which was the whole point of my post which obviously anyone mired in ideology is blind to.
Why do we not see "Victims of Torture from the Fascist Islamic Republic of Iran week"? Why are you singularly obsessed with Israel whilst minimizing or ignoring atrocities of states much much worse? That is the point of the condemnation of IAW.
That's been answered endlessly in conversations like this but now we have a whole new rebuttal. When a member of my government announces that an attack on Iran is an attack on Canada you can be sure that I'll be taking a much closer look at Iran to see if it's the kind of country with whom I believe we should have that kind of relationship. It's our government which has singled out Israel for special attention.
If our "government", and I think we can use that word loosely, was at all concerned with genocide, rape and torture of more than five million human beings in one country, then we would be helping out the DRC. But the two countries' armies and mercenaries perpetrating much of the slaughter in the Congo are US proxies Rwanda and Uganda. So the NDP is way off base there in thinking our vicious toady old line parties in Ottawa would ever agree to ruffling Uncle Sam's feathers anywhere in the colonies and client states and especially not wrt Israel.
My cousin was a victim of a murder suicide (aka. "Palestinian resistance") while she was having lunch in a restaurant . So I have a problem with anyone proclaiming that they have a right to call for the eradication of another nation state or murder it's members. Especially when it is a double standard which was the whole point of my post which obviously anyone mired in ideology is blind to.
Why do we not see "Victims of Torture from the Fascist Islamic Republic of Iran week"? Why are you singularly obsessed with Israel whilst minimizing or ignoring atrocities of states much much worse? That is the point of the condemnation of IAW.
Hypocrisy at its finest.
But it's a rare opportunity to point out a similarity between the NDP and the two pro-Warshington/Israel parties for the sake of political expediency. And that's what really counts.
Stargazer points to peech who bares her heart and calls her a hypocrite. OK
Hey well, if the shoe fits. Funny Jaku, you have a lot of compassion for poor peech, almost none for Palestinians.
I wonder when you, Peech and prophet will ever consider how the state you support kills people, isolates people, blocks them from any decent life. Where is your compassion for them? Oh yes, you lost it in your many many many defenses of Israel.
Yeah, not going to work.
I hear that a similar motion will be brought forward in the House of Commons when they get back
Hi Pogge,
The NDP could have opposed Shurman's private member bill for the reasons you presented. The party would have needed to use a lot of resources to deal with the potential accusation that it is an anti-Semitic party. This could help or hurt the party in parts of Toronto. It would hurt the NDP in northern Ontario and parts of Hamilton where the voters place issues related to the Middle East in low priority. If there are strong spokespersons that opposed Shurman's bill, the NDP could possibly survive the anti-anti-Semitic attacks from members of the Jewish community and their supporters. Since I don't see any person in the NDP willing to take up the battle in support of IAW, I think the NDP was wise not to oppose Shurman's private member bill.
You make it sound as though there are no Jews would support and defend the NDPs position should they have taken a principled stand. There are many Jews who would disagree with you. I hope you don't speak for the ONDP as your presented defense reeks of weasely cowardice and is only annoying me more than I already am. I will not support a party too afraid of bullies to defend the weak.
Thankfully (in your case), I don't speak on behalf of the ONDP and I am not a member either. As I mentioned in this forum, if the ONDP had opposed the motion, it would have had to be prepared to deal vigorously with the opponents of the IAW. The NDP would have gained very little and lost a lot. It would have gained a few votes from people who care about the Palestinians but lost a lot of votes from people who just don't care about the Palestinians. The latter are the voters who live in northern Ontario and the industrial cities of Ontario.
Why would the NDP lose the support of people who don't care about the issue? They don't care.
Furthermore, if this is a matter of the NDP doing some political calculations on who they can throw under the bus, then I think people who care about Palestinians should simply not support the NDP. They've decided they don't want our support, so there should be no complaining from NDPers when they don't get it.
Peech wrote,
"Why do we not see "Victims of Torture from the Fascist Islamic Republic of Iran week"? Why are you singularly obsessed with Israel whilst minimizing or ignoring atrocities of states much much worse? That is the point of the condemnation of IAW."
Last year and the year before when I supported the British Columbia and Ontario referendums on voting reform, the opponents of STV and MMP attacked these systems. They never made any mention about the current First-Past-the-Post voting system nor did they suggest any alternative. They were not obligated to do so.
The IAW participants are not obligated to go through a checklist of other countries and advocate for better human rights and democracy in those places. If the opponents of IAW want a "Victims of Torture from the Fascist Islamic Republic of Iran Week," then they can organize such a week freely in Canada. I won't tell them that they will need to list other countries that have poor human rights records. I might even participate in their events.
or when Cuba mistreats political prisoners...?
Or when vicious empire central supports both Israeli terrorism against Palestinians and US-based terrorism against Cuba simultaneously. In which case it's our duty to attack the third political party in Ontario in protest of it all. We'll show US and Israeli hawks that they can't get away with imperialism so easily.
Your first statement is correct and after that you're off the rails
the contortions, apologetics and attempts to prove wrong actions right whenever your pseudo socialist icons are involved are obvious and unnecessary. It was unconscionable for the NDP to join in a full frontal attack upon the Palestinian rights movement. And for you to support them in this.
Why would the NDP lose the support of people who don't care about the issue? They don't care.
Furthermore, if this is a matter of the NDP doing some political calculations on who they can throw under the bus, then I think people who care about Palestinians should simply not support the NDP. They've decided they don't want our support, so there should be no complaining from NDPers when they don't get it.
I will suggest if the ONDP gets bogged down into discussing primarily the Palestinian/Israeli issue, then other issues will be put to the sidelines. For example, there is a strike at Vale Inco in Sudbury. The voters would probably want to hear what the NDP has to say about the strike and the economy in Sudbury. The Middle East is a low priority. Many voters may not care about the Middle East; they do care if their concerns about other issues get pushed aside.
Fidel, so that you don't conflate political support for criticism of actions, can I state that I can find what the NDP are doing is wrong, even if they are still a good party option?
Isn't it a bad idea to let them make this mistake AND uncritically support them in making it?
That is such an absurd argument. Are you seriously suggesting that if the NDP didn't go along, they'd be spending most of the election (more than a year away) defending themselves from the charges of "anti-Semitism" levelled at them by the Liberals and Tories?
Or that one party can deal with many issues at the same time. Charlie Angus is advocating hard right now for Vale Inco. No one is debating how hard NDP works. When the party you vote for starts to endorse positions that are more acceptable to the right than the left, this is when people question membership and/or voting for that party. Obama is doing bad now because he is throwing everyone under the bus. I don't think that's a good thing to do. And there are a lot of people pissed at this. We are pretty capable of being upset at a lot of things all at the same time.
Fidel, so that you don't conflate political support for criticism of actions, can I state that I can find what the NDP are doing is wrong, even if they are still a good party option?
Isn't it a bad idea to let them make this mistake AND uncritically support them in making it?
I've already commented above that I disagree with Dinovo's pro-Israeli bias in the matter. But is it really pro-Israel and not just anti-combative wrt the Middle East situation? How will conservatives react? Liberals? US Republicans and Dixiecrats? I think they would react a lot more swiftly and take wicked-serious a Can-Am trade war and even trade sanctions at the federal level. This war of words is like a pinching contest between a beaver and an elephant, and we're not the elephant. I agree with "Zionist" Noam Chomsky when he says that activism should be focussed on crimes of the state. As in our state and that one south of us. I don't like what US hawks and fascists are doing in Israel and territories, but I don't like a whole lot more that they are directly and indirectly responsible for at the same time. Focussing on Israel must surely be comparable to pursing 9/11 "conspiracy theory" in that it's also a waste of time. We need to paint a big target on the side of the barn and try to nail it with a hard ball.
LP, I think Skinny Dipper has a point.
When the federal NDP called for immediate withdrawal from Afghanistan, everyone accused it of supporting the stoning of women and the attack on the Twin Towers. It cost millions in resources to survive that. Remember? And was it worth it? No one cares about foreign policy. They should have just lined up with Paul Martin and Steve Harper.
Likewise, when they alone opposed the War Measures Act in the House, they had to spend decades and more millions to convince people that they didn't favour stuffing bodies of provincial ministers in the trunks of cars and bombing mailboxes in wealthy neighbourhoods. Hey?
And when Tommy Douglas introduced medicare - my Lord, the charge of "Bolshevik agitator" still hasn't worn off! It's by pure serendipitous accident that he got voted greatest Canadian. Had he been smart, he would have just gone with the flow. Private health care isn't bad. Look at the U.S., and they're the richest country in the universe!
So, listen to Skinny's argument: Because voters don't care about the Middle East, the ONDP should get out there and oppose Israel Apartheid Week! That way, it won't get bogged down. Why, the leader won't even have to write letters explaining that Cheri DiNovo is a cowardly asshole!!
With logic like this, how can we possibly lose?
I hope I got it all straight. Here in Québec, things tend to be more black and white.
And don't forget the part where Cheri says to attack all reasoned debate about the Middle East and implicating our largest trade partners in crime in the deal. She does say that, too, doesn't she?
I mean, that's all we need are the feds to be firing live rounds into a university campus protest reminiscent of the Kent State incident. And we know how strong-willed young people can be when they believe in something. At which point government provocateurs would infiltrate today's equivalent to the FLQ, US Weathermen,SDS, black panthers etc into committing violence and discrediting any credibility an anti-war movement might have.
US imperialism is wounded right now with neoliberal meltdown and countries like China already second-guessing US dollar imperialism and suddenly buying fewer US treasury bonds. The process of self-destruction is well underway in America and for client states like Israel. Do we really need a police state at this point?
Fidel, my party right or wrong is not a philosophy many of us chose to live by. Just saying.
Upon further reflection, Cheri may just have saved Western civilization, by her bold re-writing of the Passover liturgy, her open door policy to "Rabbinic" friends, and her invocation to the besieged and disenfranchised Palestinian people to, first and foremost, keep the peace. Fidel, for years you have pointed out that provincial politicians should not pronounce themselves on foreign policy. I now see the wisdom of those words. Cheri should be fitted with a muzzle.
Well so much for the reasoned debate end of it. Better to conquer and divide voters watching campus protests from comfort of their living rooms. Maybe burn a few desks and furniture in a blazing heap while the gladios bomb a few mailboxes and kidnap a government minstrel or two.
On Atzmon - he actually is an anti-semite and a rather crude on at that having taken a few stabs at Holocaust denial and also argued that Jews ritually murdered Christian babies.
I was definitely not aware of all that - thanks for the info. I can now hate him without my previous nuance.
On Atzmon - he actually is an anti-semite and a rather crude on at that having taken a few stabs at Holocaust denial and also argued that Jews ritually murdered Christian babies.
I was definitely not aware of all that - thanks for the info. I can now hate him without my previous nuance.
...that was easy...
So now the NDP activists are telling us that no one really cares about the whole thing anyway. Oh. Then maybe the NDP should have stayed away from that particular session of the legislature and maybe DiNovo could have just kept quiet. But no, that's not what happened. Instead, the ONDP supported a motion aimed at freedom of speech on university campuses, absolving Israel of human rights and war crimes, smearing critics as anti-semites. The NDP did that, and they had a choice? Keep digging. There's a lot more shit to shovel through.
Fidel, my party right or wrong is not a philosophy many of us chose to live by. Just saying.
I understand that, I really do. But if we've already decided and made up our minds that Dinovo is wrong, and that the NDP is wrong on this for the exact same reasons the other two parties are wrong, well then there isn't much point in discussing it further. Israeli apartheid observance week is where it's at.
However, what I do think is that universities should continue being incubators of independent thought. Let them decide how and what to think about the situation with debate and discussion. There is the potential for one-sided debate in a public place of higher learning. That's not good either. In order for debate to take place, one side or the other can't be made to feel as if they are in enemy territory by declaring campuses pro-Palestinian incubators of pre-packaged thought for the resistance. Might as well just hoist the hammer and sickle atop the reichstag and be done with it.
Dinovo did say that the motion passed in legislature is symbolic. I believe our political representatives are also diplomats for Canada at the same time and not to promote hate speech or anything close to it in either our public universities or when speaking in public places.
But the ONDP leader's letter is pretty good, and it directly condemns the actions of DiNovo (without naming her) and whoever else supported this fascist motion in Queen's Park. So how about recognizing when the ONDP leader Andrea Horwath does something good, while also recognizing when one of its rogue MPPs speaks garbage? Or does that shake things up too much?
But the ONDP leader's letter is pretty good, and it directly condemns the actions of DiNovo (without naming her) and whoever else supported this fascist motion in Queen's Park. So how about recognizing when the ONDP leader Andrea Horwath does something good, while also recognizing when one of its rogue MPPs speaks garbage? Or does that shake things up too much?
Part of the reason that I appear to be an unapologetic supporter of the NDP right or wrong is where this kind of debate about Israel ultimately leads to, which is this movement's calls for embargoing Israel. I can't support that no matter what's happening in Israel or who is wrong or right. Cubans have endured genocidal trade sanctions and illegal blockades of humanitarian aid for many years and under the false guise of promoting democracy in Cuba. I don't agree with using trade and access to crfedit as political weapons under any circumstances. Denying material goods and humanitarian aid to any country is crossing the line into that grey area of political interference. People can't make clear minded political decisions when faced with outside influence amounting to coercion in the extreme. Children don't vote, for example, and their suffering is meaningless.
A Reckoning for Israel by John Pilger
http://www.greenleft.org.au/2010/828/42569
"Palestinian resistance to the theft of their country reached a critical moment in 2001 when Israel was identified as an apartheid state at a UN conference on racism in Durban, South Africa..
Like the South Africa campaign, the issue of law is central. No state is allowed to flout international law as wilfully as Israel..
Keep that in mind when you next watch the mainstream media [or political parties] 'balance' such suffering with the weasel protestations of the oppressors..."
Part of the reason that I appear to be an unapologetic supporter of the NDP right or wrong is where this kind of debate about Israel ultimately leads to, which is this movement's calls for embargoing Israel. I can't support that no matter what's happening in Israel or who is wrong or right. Cubans have endured genocidal trade sanctions and illegal blockades of humanitarian aid for many years and under the false guise of promoting democracy in Cuba. I don't agree with using trade and access to crfedit as political weapons under any circumstances. Denying material goods and humanitarian aid to any country is crossing the line into that grey area of political interference. People can't make clear minded political decisions when faced with outside influence amounting to coercion in the extreme. Children don't vote, for example, and their suffering is meaningless.
So Fidel, did you oppose sanctions against apartheid South Africa? Just curious.
Those were decisions by people in the end not to invest in S. Africa and not so much US, Canadian or any other governments. People around the world began asking where their pensions and other funds were being invested. And investment companies reacted by witholding somewhere on the order of $600 billion a year from S. Africa. Neocolonialism is still a problem in Africa in case anyone hasn't noticed.
Israel is a different story altogether. They receive more in US aid every year than all of Africa and South America combined. Israel has been a frontline state in the cold war and now a continuing colder war. The Yanks and Brits aren't going to let Israel fall to democracy anytime soon. I think the left is looking for an easy victory against another apartheid regime, and it's not going to happen this time. The left needs a concentrated laser guided effort toward abating the problem at its source. Israel would be a good prize for the left - but there are bigger fish to fry. Only one way to deal with a bully, and the first goal statement for the left should be to actually identify the bully and main culprit orchestrating imperialism and neocolonialism around the world. That's step number one.
Weekly Report on Israeli Human Rights Violations in the Occupied Territories
http://www.pchrgaza.org/portal/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=arti...
We Must Never Forget Gaza
http://palestinethinktank.com/2010/02/27/khalid-amayreh-we-must-never-fo...
"Unfortunately, this callous criminal policy is not being challenged by the international community which keeps issuing platitudinous remarks...It is necessary to once again mobilize the peoples of the world to rise up and demonstrate loudly in order to exert pressure on their respective governments...Gaza has become the ultimate test of humanity's moral commitment.."
consider what is at stake while we dither they die - the paramount consideration should NOT be the political interests of the NDP
They're dying in the Middle East. And they're dying in the Congo and Afghanistan and Haiti and El Salvador and Guatemala, India and Pakistan, Bangladesh, Philippines, Iraq, Yemen, Angola, Colombia and so on and so on. We're not going to stop it by foisting blame for Israeli apartheid on third political parties in Toronto or the effective opposition in Ottawa. It's like going nowhere fast.
I think leftists should be concerned about the larger issues of war and war crimes in general, and which of Canada's largest trade partner is making moves toward world wide conflict and possibly another terrible world war? Why is Israel still a frontline state? What else is going on with NATO in the Middle East and Central Asia and Africa? Why does NATO still exist and expanding into Eastern Europe and encircling Russia and China? Which one or two leading fascist nations are benefiting the most from warfiteering and aggression around the world? How many countries did the Nazis march into before democratic countries finally stepped in to defend the world from fascist aggression? Where is the left on today's wars of naked aggression? Why do the USSA and Brits and 45-plus other NATO allies enjoy so little resistance from the left? We're looking at full spectrum world domination by a few lead NATO countries enforcing an oppressive neoliberal financial regime amounting to so much colonialism in modern times, and the left is obsesssing over one of the tiniest countries in the world in the Middle East? Who's writing this leftwing script?
"Effective opposition"??!! You crack me up. Anyway you've got their ring through your nose and will follow them over whatever cliff they may decide to lead you to. Their pattern of treachery and constant sellouts is well documented and an old story. A fixed game and one they invariably play badly. But for those who still believe - harsh correction should be administered. It's the only language politicians sometimes understand. I'll certainly be kicking my mpp's ass over this - maybe literally. After all there are real flesh and blood freedom fighting Palestinian people giving everything just to survive - the ndp varmints shouldn't be allowed to defile their cause with no consequences - that's why they keep selling out over and over again. Disgusting.
But then - as you suggest in another context - focus on the Organ grinder not his monkey.
This is slow work - enough.
Again I go to the point of how out to lunch the majority of voters are in Ontario....
Smarten up.
As I mentioned before, if the ONDP wants to support IAW or had opposed Shurman's bill, then it could do so. The provincial party would be putting a lot of resources into this issue.
I think it would be better for the federal NDP to take up the challenge of seeking some balanced solution in the Middle East. The NDP doesn't need to support IAW; it doesn't need to oppose it either. The federal party can oppose any Conservative motion that doesn't consider the balance of both sides in the issue.
Finally, I do encourage citizens who support IAW to become actively involved. When I look at the recent anti-prorogation rallies, these were led by average citizens--not by the political parties.
RevolutionPlease, post # 108 is out of line. Don't do it.
Closing for length.