Rob Ford going off the rails! Part II

Sineed
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The last thread ended with this cogent comment from Cueball:

Cueball wrote:
If the Star had actually endorsed "Transit City". as opposed to George Smitherman, then Ford might have been defeated on the issues.


Comments

Sineed
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On December 2nd I sent a letter to Mayor Ford's office expressing my concern regarding his transit plan.  Here's the response:

Mayor Ford's office wrote:
Thank you for taking the time to express your concerns regarding the future plans for Transit City. The Mayor's plan is to centralize investment in underground rapid transit. The Toronto Transit Commission will respond with options and a more cohesive plan by the end of January.

 

We would like to assure you that the taxpayers will continue to come first. Our team is confident that the revised plan will provide a cleaner, safer and more reliable transit system for the citizens of Toronto.

 

More information will be available following the late-January proposals.  

 

Office of the Mayor


Stockholm
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Its a waste of time to write to Ford. PHONE HIM. I hear he personally returns every single solitary call placed to him.


Stargazer
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Sineed, I received the exact same reply in response to my email pushing to keek Transit City.

 

Rob Ford is not interested in us. He is all about his "base" and we can just go screw ourselves. Bike riding commie pinkos.


N.R.KISSED
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I also got the exact same response. This is the customer serevice they have been crowing about, meaningless formulaic crap


Maysie
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I got the same response, twice.

N.R.Kissed wrote:
 meaningless formulaic crap

After the Cherry fiasco earlier this week, I welcome meaningless formulaic crap with open arms. Look how low my expections are now. Damn it all to hell.


Sineed
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Stargazer wrote:

Sineed, I received the exact same reply in response to my email pushing to keep Transit City.

I suspected such; that was partly why I posted it :-)

I'm thinking of getting a winter coat in flamingo pink for riding my bike downtown.

What has been happening: Ford had a meeting with the premier, primarily about transit, that was mysteriously cut short.  Now Ford has been saying that he doesn't need council to vote on cancelling Transit City because council never voted on Transit City as a whole in the 1st place - the province may disagree, and insist on a vote.  Opinions?

Aside: I haven't bothered dignifying the Don Cherry speech with a response, but it does set the tone for a divisive style of this mayor's office.  I'd point out to Don Cherry and Rob Ford that transit isn't necessarily a left-wing versus right-wing issue; reliable public transit is good for businesses downtown.  And right-wing people, church-goers and veterans ride bikes too.


Le T
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I emailed my councilor Ana Baileo weeks ago and have still heard nothing from her. I see that she was recently given a pretty nice appointment by the Mayor considering she only has a few days experience as a councilor.


Olly
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Ford ran on a platform of scrapping Transit City. Why is anyone surprised he's doing it? Same with Miller and the bridge, which cost hundreds of millions of dollars to scrap. I'm just so glad that right wing Smitherman didn't win! Then we'd be in real trouble!!


Maysie
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We're not surprised. We're fucking angry.

Well, I am.


jrootham
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The cost of the bridge was due to fraud on the part of the Toronto Port Authority.

 


Stockholm
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Correction - Ford ran on a platform (released on Youtube at midnight and given as little publicity as possible) to REPLACE Transit City with his etch-a-sketch drawing of subway lines criss-crossing the city and he promised that it would be NO PROBLEM AT ALL to get the billions of dollars extra to build subway lines to all the places that LRTs were supposed to go to in Transit City. People did not vote for Ford to scrap Transit City and replace it with NOTHING (which is what will happen). Ford avoided talking about transit during the campiagn as much as possible and when pressed he said that by "stopping the gravy train" (ie: stopping city councillors from getting to go to the Zoo for free) - he would be able to pay for his etch-a-sketch of subway lines.


Aristotleded24
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Sineed wrote:
What has been happening: Ford had a meeting with the premier, primarily about transit, that was mysteriously cut short.  Now Ford has been saying that he doesn't need council to vote on cancelling Transit City because council never voted on Transit City as a whole in the 1st place - the province may disagree, and insist on a vote.  Opinions?

That form response tells me that Ford was prepared for the backlash against cancelling Transit City.

Here's how I can see this playing out. Although McGuinty technically can insist that Toronto go through with Transit City, I doubt he thinks he has any political capital to do so, and if the city and the province both bail, there is no way the feds are going to interfere. Transit City is probably not going to be killed outright. What will probably happen is that come budget time, the Liberals will pull back any funds for Transit City that haven't already been spent or projects that haven't been started, and make some vague allocation for subways. Why not? If he's going down, he certainly doesn't have to worry about spending that money. And don't forget that the most recent provincial budget basically killed Transit City anyways.

Here in Winnipeg, the current mayor's first major action in office was to cancel plans to build a rapid transit system here, and Winnipeg is still paying for it. So my suggestion to Torontonians concerned about public transit? Make an action plan for the worst case scenario.


A political
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jrootham wrote:

The cost of the bridge was due to fraud on the part of the Toronto Port Authority.

 

Now that is funny.  Miller runs up millions of dollars in costs cancelling a bridge and that is someone else's fault . 

Gold that's lame!


edmundoconnor
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N.R.KISSED wrote:

I also got the exact same response. This is the customer service they have been crowing about, meaningless formulaic crap

Good news: they're about customer service (I prefer to be a citizen, but moving on)

Bad news: they learnt about customer service from Rogers


edmundoconnor
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Stockholm wrote:

Ford avoided talking about transit during the campiagn as much as possible and when pressed he said that by "stopping the gravy train" (ie: stopping city councillors from getting to go to the Zoo for free) - he would be able to pay for his etch-a-sketch of subway lines.

He talked about the 'gravy train'. Real trains, not so much. Even less about how he's going to pay for them, and have them built by 2015.

I've been engaging the pondlife on the Sun's comment boards (hey, I like blood sport), and the best they've come up with is that the Liberals will be so scared of losing Toronto in 2011, that they'll give Ford anything he wants.


edmundoconnor
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Stockholm wrote:

Its a waste of time to write to Ford. PHONE HIM. I hear he personally returns every single solitary call placed to him.

Has anyone here actually done that? Should I expect a screaming match if I call?


Polunatic2
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Anyone notice that Ford is unable to say "citizen" or "resident". He reports to the "taxpayers" only. No one else matters. 

The Don Cherry thing was so revealing.

1) Conservatives have a hate on for anyone who doesn't vote for them or who takes transit (even if they vote for them).

2) The "war on cars" is over. It's more important for Mississaugans to have a fast drive in and out of Toronto than it is for Torontonians to get around on transit. They're taxpayers too.

3) Millionaires now speak on behalf of working people. Transit riders are elitists. 

Now that Ford is mayor, the focus is quickly shifting to electing Tim Hudak as premier next year. Expect to see more of Don Cherry campaigning in T.O. for "the little guy". 

This is worth reading. 

John Moore: Don Cherry’s ‘swaggering performance by a classic bully’

Quote:
Cherry’s behavior should come as no surprise. He’ll likely say it was all for show. But what has better than fifty percent of the population of Toronto done to be verbally abused at the induction of their new mayor

Here’s my challenge to those who were thrilled by Cherry’s braggadocio: provide me with a single example of a formal swearing-in ceremony where a left-wing office holder or one of his proxies turned to the audience and essentially said “suck on this”. In fact, I’ll widen the challenge: when has an incumbent liberal ever said “hey fascists, I’m in charge now. Screw you.”?


Papal Bull
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Aristotleded24 wrote:

Here's how I can see this playing out. Although McGuinty technically can insist that Toronto go through with Transit City, I doubt he thinks he has any political capital to do so, and if the city and the province both bail, there is no way the feds are going to interfere. Transit City is probably not going to be killed outright. What will probably happen is that come budget time, the Liberals will pull back any funds for Transit City that haven't already been spent or projects that haven't been started, and make some vague allocation for subways. Why not? If he's going down, he certainly doesn't have to worry about spending that money. And don't forget that the most recent provincial budget basically killed Transit City anyways.

Here in Winnipeg, the current mayor's first major action in office was to cancel plans to build a rapid transit system here, and Winnipeg is still paying for it. So my suggestion to Torontonians concerned about public transit? Make an action plan for the worst case scenario.

 

I agree with your prediction. It really isn't positive and I have a few conspiratorial notes to add...

rob ford is basically going to stall on transit city, as you mentioned. he will do what he can to get votes to go his way or find ways to ignore the will of council. it is going to become a media issue and be put off as long as possible. his talks with mcguinty are going to go nowhere. the premier, intrepid adventurer that he is, will make some vague promises about funding a new transit idea. transit city as an item will gradually loose funding.
mcguinty is dead in the water. he has nothing left and unless he resigns as premier or pulls some sort of rabbit out of the hat and everyone in ontario becomes millionaires (my preferred route), hudak will win. this will allow for a more syngertistic province-municipality interaction as ford will likely throw a bit of weight behind hudak in the inevitable election. ford doesn't have a plan right now, and he may very well not have a plan when his evil plot comes to fruition. he is not a politician with a lot of personal substance in terms of policy generation or implementation. that doesn't matter to the electorate when it comes time to vote, sadly. rob ford is a smart politician in that he plays the game very well. he does it as well as any other modern politician that is riding a 'populist' wave of disillusionment and money. when leaders become media figures and try control image it distracts them from doing anything but playing games of dischord. it then falls to their circle of lackies and assistants and allies and aides to make these dreams a reality and develop a policy without vision - just 'subways'.

there are a lot of ways for this to pan out in the long run. perhaps by some satanic ritual the combination of a provincial pc government and a retrograde toronto mayor can make work what few other places can manage - a major subway expansion that is on time and on budget. more likely the inaction of the liberals and the mendacity of mayor ford will simply kill off what is a viable, problematically presented transit plan. this will leave toronto in the lurch until ford tries again with the new premier, banking on reelection. the new premier may be a bit more receptive than the last to a radical overhaul of long term planning in the expansion of the ttc. what form it will take is anyone's guess, because 'subway from here to here' is pretty vague and manages to delibertily obscure the costs to the immediate infrastructure and residents. besides the technical and engineering side of it (which i imagine will probably face considerable challenges) that hasn't really been talked about (hard to talk about when you've been given something so nebulous) the actual costs to torontonian residents hasn't been assesed.

this total lack of vision for policy and implementation in favor of media presentation does not auger well for even an optimist prediction that ford could be maligned by council and made in some sort of 'duck'.


jrootham
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Somebody doesn't remember their history.  It was a scam from the get go.

Oh, and even inflated, it was $35 million, not hundreds of millions.

Also, check out the Porter Air books.  They are going bankrupt.

 

A political wrote:

jrootham wrote:

The cost of the bridge was due to fraud on the part of the Toronto Port Authority.

 

Now that is funny.  Miller runs up millions of dollars in costs cancelling a bridge and that is someone else's fault . 

Gold that's lame!


Polunatic2
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History? Facts? All they do is to call into question the talking point. 


Le T
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It's not like the TTC rushed to secure a bunch of Transit City contracts with heavy termination fees when they found out Rob Ford would probably win.


Aristotleded24
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Le T wrote:
It's not like the TTC rushed to secure a bunch of Transit City contracts with heavy termination fees when they found out Rob Ford would probably win.

Wouldn't have made a difference in the politics anyways.


Catchfire
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Free Transit and Movement Building

Quote:

Among the strengths of the free transit campaign is its potential to foreground and develop an analysis of our collective stake in the protection of public goods. It is not difficult to talk about public goods in the context of mass transportation infrastructure. The shared benefits of public transportation are difficult to deny, particularly in a city as large and as sprawling as Toronto. Even setting aside the obvious ecological imperatives that should be driving public investment in greener infrastructure, there are powerful economic reasons to support a massive re-investment in Ontario's transportation sector. A serious effort to expand the reach and accessibility of the public transit system would serve not only to ease the burden of Toronto's most vulnerable residents and reduce the economic and health costs associated with air pollution and traffic congestion: such an investment could re-direct the wasted skills and resources embodied in Ontario's laid-off auto-workers and silent auto-plants, which could be converted to the production of high efficiency mass transit vehicles. As Sam Gindin and Leo Panitch (2010) argued recently in the Toronto Star, public borrowing to finance such investments represents not a wasteful burden on future generations, but a commitment to securing them a future. The real squandering of our collective resources lies not in public borrowing or in benefits packages for public employees, but in our failure to direct existing skills, knowledge, and material capacities into a coherent strategy for building sustainable communities.

The idea of a free transit movement immediately foregrounds a number of thorny strategic questions for the left in Toronto: how to build trust, dialogue, and support for a free transit movement within the transit union; how to address and re-focus the widespread anger, mistrust, and resentment directed at the public sector in the current climate; how to sustain and advance anti-capitalist principles while building productive relationships within broader progressive milieux. Navigating these questions will be challenging, and the Assembly is still a long way from a coherent and systematic approach to answering them. But the fact that these questions surface so quickly and urgently is a positive sign of the ambition and seriousness with which the Assembly is approaching the organization of a free transit movement. The free transit campaign will push the Assembly to develop further its internal organizational and decision-making capacities, but it will also demand an outward-looking, inclusive process, in which the Assembly's role is to open space for debate, dialogue, and collective strategizing.

In fact, the transit system itself can provide the venue for us to stage public discussions about our collective resources and to share alternative visions for our city: the transit system is a readymade classroom, theatre, and art gallery, attended every day by people who could come to recognize their stake in the de-commodification of public goods of many kinds. My hope is that Toronto's buses, streetcars, and subway platforms could be places for experimentation, places to develop the new tactics, organizing skills, and relationships that might permit us to really depart from the prevailing script.


adma
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You know, given that Don Cherry's shoot-from-the-lip reputation precedes him, it's noteworthy who he didn't refer to in his speech: hyphenated-Canadians.

After all, they were a powerful base of Ford's support--if Cherry started ripping into them, then presto, Ford honeymoon over.  (OTOH left-wing pinkos are safe targets, never having been part of the honeymoon in the first place.)


Lard Tunderin Jeezus
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Olly wrote:

Ford ran on a platform of scrapping Transit City. Why is anyone surprised he's doing it? Same with Miller and the bridge, which cost hundreds of millions of dollars to scrap. I'm just so glad that right wing Smitherman didn't win! Then we'd be in real trouble!!

The details of the settlement for the bridge cancellation remain a secret to this day, although the Port Authority immediately committed 4 million for a new ferry. But the difference between four and "hundreds of millions" is pretty wide. Do you have an insider source for your information, Olly?

Or is your claim as ridiculous as I suspect?

edited to add

I see the issue was already dealt with earlier and better. Thanks to JR for this link.


A political
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Certainly I have heard much larger numbers the 35 million, but let's concede that is is 35 million that Miller wasted because he promised in his campaign to dump the brigde.  Ford promised dump transit city.  So what is the difference.  Oh yeah you don't agree with Ford but you did with Miller!


N.R.KISSED
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A political wrote:

Certainly I have heard much larger numbers the 35 million, but let's concede that is is 35 million that Miller wasted because he promised in his campaign to dump the brigde.  Ford promised dump transit city.  So what is the difference.  Oh yeah you don't agree with Ford but you did with Miller!

Miller didn't waste anything because it wasn't city money. It was money paid by the Federal government to some corporate friends who were offered deals by the Port Authority just before Miller was elected. The difference was the port authority a federal body and run by a conservative shill was responsible. So once again conservative equals waste


A political
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N.R.KISSED wrote:

Miller didn't waste anything because it wasn't city money. It was money paid by the Federal government to some corporate friends who were offered deals by the Port Authority just before Miller was elected. The difference was the port authority a federal body and run by a conservative shill was responsible. So once again conservative equals waste

Oh I am so out of touch-so if city officals waste my federal tax money that's okay, it only counts when it is city tax money.  NEWSFLASH   We are all the same taxpayers.  Gosh you don't make sense.  I hate the cancelling of Tranist City but frankly I see no difference between the two. 


N.R.KISSED
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A political wrote:

N.R.KISSED wrote:

Miller didn't waste anything because it wasn't city money. It was money paid by the Federal government to some corporate friends who were offered deals by the Port Authority just before Miller was elected. The difference was the port authority a federal body and run by a conservative shill was responsible. So once again conservative equals waste

Oh I am so out of touch-so if city officals waste my federal tax money that's okay, it only counts when it is city tax money.  NEWSFLASH   We are all the same taxpayers.  Gosh you don't make sense.  I hate the cancelling of Tranist City but frankly I see no difference between the two. 

Try paying attention, the Port Authority made deals when they knew David Miller was coming in. Forget your tax payer rhetoric the Port Authority is an unelected undemocratic body, they made these deals against the democratic interests of citizens and the waste was created by them, intentionally. The federal government then paid out more money than the project was actually worth. IF you don't see the difference with that and cancelling a plan that had approval from three levels of government then your not looking.

 


A political
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N.R.KISSED wrote:
Try paying attention, the Port Authority made deals when they knew David Miller was coming in. Forget your tax payer rhetoric the Port Authority is an unelected undemocratic body, they made these deals against the democratic interests of citizens and the waste was created by them, intentionally. The federal government then paid out more money than the project was actually worth. IF you don't see the difference with that and cancelling a plan that had approval from three levels of government then your not looking.

Oh I am paying attention alright....Seems 47% of the voters were too and now we have Rob Ford. Enjoy him you created him!


N.R.KISSED
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I created him? I'm not the one that is falling for the cheap slight of hand tricks. Transity City does not equal the bridge to the island in any way. i also didn't create amalgamation or shill for slitherman. The 53% that didn't vote for Ford can still fight him.


A political
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N.R.KISSED wrote:

I created him? I'm not the one that is falling for the cheap slight of hand tricks. Transity City does not equal the bridge to the island in any way. i also didn't create amalgamation or shill for slitherman. The 53% that didn't vote for Ford can still fight him.

What the hell does Smitherman have to do with this discussion or amalgamation for that matter.


Lord Palmerston
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A political wrote:
Oh I am paying attention alright....Seems 47% of the voters were too and now we have Rob Ford. Enjoy him you created him!

A truly idiotic statement.  Even if Pantalone dropped out, Smitherman still would have lost, unless you make the ridiculously unrealistic assumption that about 97% of Pantalone's voters would gone to Smitherman.


A political
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Lord Palmerston wrote:

 

A political wrote:
Oh I am paying attention alright....Seems 47% of the voters were too and now we have Rob Ford. Enjoy him you created him!

A truly idiotic statement.  Even if Pantalone dropped out, Smitherman still would have lost, unless you make the ridiculously unrealistic assumption that about 97% of Pantalone's voters would gone to Smitherman.

At no time did I suggest anything to do with Smitherman>  I meant that people with the same attitude as our craxys over the top councillor Davis, Fletcher McConnelland vaughan allowed Ford to win>


A political
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Lord Palmerston wrote:

 

A political wrote:
Oh I am paying attention alright....Seems 47% of the voters were too and now we have Rob Ford. Enjoy him you created him!

A truly idiotic statement.  Even if Pantalone dropped out, Smitherman still would have lost, unless you make the ridiculously unrealistic assumption that about 97% of Pantalone's voters would gone to Smitherman.

At no time did I suggest anything to do with Smitherman>  I meant that people with the same attitude as our craxys over the top councillor Davis, Fletcher McConnelland vaughan allowed Ford to win>


Cueball
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That is a bunch of crap. It was the Liberal shills at the Toronto Star that made Ford by crapping all over the Miller administration for an entire year after the garbage strike after a successful tenure in office of fairly substantive achievements. The Liberals figured they could come in on the anti-Miller bandwagon that they created with pretty much constant negative press about not much of anything. They thought they could do a whole lot better if they made Smitherman Minister of Toronto for the McGuinty government, so that he could P3 Transit City.

It is no accident that Ford registered to run for mayor the day after the Miller/McGuinty split on Transit City implementation became official.

The result was that Ford came in on an anti-Smitherman ticket aided and abetted by the Stars anti-Miller campaign that they hoped would get their man elected. Instead, if they had actually promoted the real benefits of real Miller initiatives like Transit City, instead of using every opportunity to trash Miller, Ford might have lost on the issues. Instead they tried to panic the voters, making Ford the key election issue, and in the cacophony of fear-mongering all logic and issue based politics was lost.

Fact is that no one really knows who Vaughan or McConnell is, except in their respective wards, and trying to cast blame in that direction is just sour grapes laden with misinformation.


Stockholm
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I agree


Sunday Hat
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I do too.

Partially.

I think the Star definitely made the miscalculation that they could take out Miller and replace him with Smitherman. (As an aside, this speaks to the major miscalculation the Mayor when he decided to abandon the NDP and put his chips down with the Liberals)

But as the election results showed the Toronto Star's ability to deliver elections is pretty limited.

I also think the profoundly anti-populist instincts of Miller, Perks, Vaughan, Fletcher, Bussin etc. made it pretty easy to paint the "establishment" at City Hall as arrogant, out-of-touch and downtown elitist. I'd disagree that "no one knows" se hgwho these Councillors are. Every Rob Ford voter knows that Kyle Rae was the guy who threw himself a $12,000 party. Sandra Bussin was the Councillor who called John Tory's show and lied about it. Paula Fletcher was the woman who yelled at a citizen because he asked for a tax cut. And that Miller's team charged you $60 on your birthday if you own a car (which is a virtual necessity in the poorly planned inner suburbs).

If people want to win back City Hall they have to win back voters that Miller easily won in 2003 and subsequently alienated. And you can't rely on the Toronto Star for any help. They're wrong on almost everything and hopelessly partisan.

 


Boom Boom
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I didn't want to scroll through both threads to see if Rob Ford is actually going to bring in truly anti-bike legislation, so does anyone know if such is in the works? I think for cyclists everywhere, it's important not to let our largest metropolitan area adopt anti-bike legislation that could snowball elsewhere. Frown


Sineed
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Many cyclists were mobilized by the Michael Bryant case, when the former AG of Ontario got off without so much as a traffic ticket after he killed a cyclist with his car.  

If Rob Ford tried to enact any anti-cyclist bylaws, we (cyclists I mean) would bring this city to a standstill.  He's definitely not going to be "allowed" to roll back any gains made.  For instance, if bike lanes got painted over, there's an army of people who would instantly repaint them.

Rob Ford has said that with his election, "the war on the car is over."  There actually was no such thing, but if he enacts anti-biking legislation, the war on the car will surely begin.


Boom Boom
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Thanks, Sineed - much appreciated.


Stockholm
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Sunday Hat wrote:

I do too.

I think the Star definitely made the miscalculation that they could take out Miller and replace him with Smitherman. (As an aside, this speaks to the major miscalculation the Mayor when he decided to abandon the NDP and put his chips down with the Liberals)

But as the election results showed the Toronto Star's ability to deliver elections is pretty limited.

I also think the profoundly anti-populist instincts of Miller, Perks, Vaughan, Fletcher, Bussin etc. made it pretty easy to paint the "establishment" at City Hall as arrogant, out-of-touch and downtown elitist. I'd disagree that "no one knows" se hgwho these Councillors are. Every Rob Ford voter knows that Kyle Rae was the guy who threw himself a $12,000 party. Sandra Bussin was the Councillor who called John Tory's show and lied about it. Paula Fletcher was the woman who yelled at a citizen because he asked for a tax cut. And that Miller's team charged you $60 on your birthday if you own a car (which is a virtual necessity in the poorly planned inner suburbs).

I'm not sure if I agree with all this. First of all, how was it a "miscalculation" for Miller not to renew his NDP membership? I'm not saying I'm happy he did that - but so what?? (I don't recall him ever "putting his chips with the Liberals" - if he had actually done that the Toronto Star would have fallen in love with him!) Its not exactly unprecedented for mayoral candidates and mayors who are trying to appeal to voters in more than one party - to get rid of some of their "partisan baggage". I wouldn't be surprised if Shelley Carrol let's it be known in the near future that she has let her Liberal Party membership lapse - that way she can start amassing support from NDPers and non-partisan progressives.

The litany of incidents you mention about some of these councillors have nothing to do with being "populist" or not. Paula Fletcher has been a firebrand defender of the poor and underprivileged since the days when she was leader of the Manitoba Communist Party (lol) - so she got angry and told someone to shut up at a meeting - compare that to the countless incidents where Ford as councillor ran amok - including getting drunk at a hockey game and hurling racist epithets at people. Kyle Rae was retiring anyways - so he wasn't on the ballot - but let's not forget that Ford's newly named TTC chair Karen Stintz was on the front page of the Star for spending $5,000 of her office budget on public speaking lessons for herself - remind me why she's a populist and Kyle Rae isn't?? The city councillor who would always spend the most on questionable stuff was that great "populist" Giorgio Mammoliti (aka as "gino boy" according to Ford) - and he's now a major ally of Ford's. Gord Perks is out there every day fighting to protect city-delivered social programs people depend on - to me THAT is what being a "populist" is all about - fighting for things that benefit the average person. I'm not exactly sure what is "anti-populist" about Adam Vaughan - he seems to champion the issues that "the people (ie: the root of where the word "populist" comes from)" in his ward care about.

I usually think of "populism" as something I associate with the left - since the whole point of leftwing politics is to help the common people against the rich and power. Now, people seem to think that the only way to earn "populist credentials" is to be some crude anti-intellectual who talks in code about racism and gets endorsed by Don Cherry (you know, the guy who gets paid $800,000 by the publicly funded CBC to talk nonsence on Hockey Night in Canada).


Lard Tunderin Jeezus
rabble-rouser-supreme
Member: 2275
Joined: Aug 27 2001

Testing to see if I can fix the formatting issue...


...the answer appears to be: no


Sunday Hat
rabble-rouser
Member: 78
Joined: Nov 10 2008

Stockholm, you're right and I wish/hope you're providing advice to the folks on Council.

Rightly or wrongly (and I agree it was mostly wrongly) the "Left" on Council got branded as "not caring about the little guy" and Ford took a series of incidents and weaved them into a potent narrative - and the "Left" never got off the defensive.

But you're right, the petty crimes Ford used to indict Miller were also committed by members of his team and by Ford himself. Moreover, he's about to launch a series of measures that will brutally screw over the "little guy" he claims he's fighting for. The people waiting an hour for the bus at Jane and Finch won't be getting a train line. The mom who needs that City run daycare or she'll lose her job stands a good chance of losing that daycare. etc.


Sunday Hat
rabble-rouser
Member: 78
Joined: Nov 10 2008

On Miller: my read was that he decided to "transcend" partisan politics at the behest of the Liberals in his kitchen cabinet. He certainly refused to help the New Democrats who worked their butts off in 2003 to get him elected. He happily showed up to cheer for Paul Martin's farcical handgun ban that wasn't a handgun ban. He put ads over the TTC praising Dalton McGuinty.

Then the Liberals killed Transit City and started pushing Smitherman.

When you lay down with snakes you get bitten.


Aristotleded24
rabble-rouser-machine
Member: 10327
Joined: May 24 2005

Paging Andrea Horwath: Make sure saving Transit City features prominently in your party's election platform next year.


Stargazer
rabble-rouser-supreme
Member: 7061
Joined: Jun 9 2004

Transit City is dead.

Good Evening (blank),


I would like to reassure you that your concerns are being taken seriously. By being an active part of the democratic process, you are allowing me to gain perspective on public opinion and suggestions.

It is my hope that the Transit City brand will be replaced with a brand that takes a broader transportation perspective. The plan isn't being killed, but much of the work will be refocused underground.

The first transit priority is to build a subway on Sheppard Avenue and replace the Scarborough RT. These routes were first priority in the Transit City plan, I would like them open before the Pan-Am Games in 2015. The second transit priority is the Eglinton line. This route was second priority in Transit City plan. I would like this line open, as currently scheduled, by 2020.

I have asked the TTC to investigate and present options for a new plan to achieve these goals. Once this plan is established, I will be able to answer more specific questions with regards to cost and changes.

The previous Transit City plan was not approved as one plan by Council, individual lines were voted on. As your Mayor, I look forward to bringing the new plans forward to my council colleagues.


Sincerely,

Rob Ford
Mayor of Toronto

My reply from Ford.



N.R.KISSED
rabble-rouser
Member: 2258
Joined: Aug 22 2001

Stargazer wrote:

Transit City is dead.

Good Evening (blank),


I would like to reassure you that your concerns are being taken seriously. By being an active part of the democratic process, you are allowing me to gain perspective on public opinion and suggestions.

It is my hope that the Transit City brand will be replaced with a brand that takes a broader transportation perspective. The plan isn't being killed, but much of the work will be refocused underground.

The first transit priority is to build a subway on Sheppard Avenue and replace the Scarborough RT. These routes were first priority in the Transit City plan, I would like them open before the Pan-Am Games in 2015. The second transit priority is the Eglinton line. This route was second priority in Transit City plan. I would like this line open, as currently scheduled, by 2020.

I have asked the TTC to investigate and present options for a new plan to achieve these goals. Once this plan is established, I will be able to answer more specific questions with regards to cost and changes.

The previous Transit City plan was not approved as one plan by Council, individual lines were voted on. As your Mayor, I look forward to bringing the new plans forward to my council colleagues.


Sincerely,

Rob Ford
Mayor of Toronto

My reply from Ford.


I got this one too


Stockholm
rabble-rouser-for-life
Member: 4138
Joined: Sep 29 2002

What else were you expecting? This is what he proposed in the campaign. The question now is what happens when and if council votes on this and what does the Ontario government do?


ElizaQ
rabble-rouser-machine
Member: 10355
Joined: May 27 2005

Four years?  Has there been any detailed plans (like engineering) done at all for a subway along that particular line?  Four years sounds pretty unrealistic time frame to build something like this from start to finish.  Let alone something that isn't even funded yet and is going to costs oodle more then the transit plan that now exists for that route.  

Forgive me I haven't read these threads in detail or much about it in detail but has Ford even talked about where the $$$ is supposedly going to come for the changes he wants?  I'm assuming he's promising to somehow pull this off without any new taxes etc etc.   The money pulled from the 'gravy train' maybe?   I know this whole thing is about much more then money but I'd really like to know where the "Ford is awesome' peeps think it's going to come from.  The only thing I've heard so far is some airy notion that more then what has already been promised will come from the Feds or the Province which in the case of the Cons and their political motivations could happen.   My reply 'oh I see you have no problem taking more from other people then' didn't go over very well.   That was my selfish gene speaking there.  I'll admit it.   Regardless this money for this great and wonderous project has to come from somewhere.  There's no magic money tree. 

 


Polunatic2
rabble-rouser-machine
Member: 13238
Joined: Mar 12 2006

Quote:
 Regardless this money for this great and wonderous project has to come from somewhere.  I'll be surprised if there's a single kilometer of any kind of new track in Toronto by 2015.
Let's see Ford's scorecard so far;

Cuts to revenues:$65 million on vehicle registration x 4 years = $260,000,000

Additional costs: Moving TTC to essential services regimen - negative savings unknown.

Savings from cuts to councillor budgets: 44 x $20,000 x 4 years = $3,520,000 on the assumption that everyone spent the max last year (they didnt'). 

Savings to date: -$256,480,000. 

Just wait til those zoo passes are cancelled. That'll show 'em. 

I've always thought that promising subways was really a way of scrapping light rail and doing nothing else. "Sorry but after looking at the fine details, we just can't afford a new subway. We also need to continue to lower taxes." Undoubtedly blame will be placed on McGuinty (but not on the Con Feds) as part of the elect Tim Hudak movement. If that happens, we can look forward to even more cuts. Rob Ford is incapable and unwilling to stand up for Toronto because he is there to represent corporate interests. 


edmundoconnor
rabble-rouser-machine
Member: 17949
Joined: Jul 7 2009

ElizaQ wrote:

Four years?  Has there been any detailed plans (like engineering) done at all for a subway along that particular line?  Four years sounds pretty unrealistic time frame to build something like this from start to finish.  Let alone something that isn't even funded yet and is going to costs oodle more then the transit plan that now exists for that route. 

My guess is there has been exactly no plans made for the line, except for the one drawn on the back of a napkin earlier this year.

Four years is an impossible time-frame to build a subway line, even if you've got all the resources in the world (which the city doesn't). Environmental Assessments need to be done, consultations need to be made, contracts have to be haggled over, materials need to be ordered, all before you've moved a gram of dirt. If you go faster than you should, well: garbage in, garbage out.

I have a funny feeling that Jim Flaherty is going to have an attack of generosity just around the time the line needs, you know, funding. It'll be an overfunded mess that serves only a few. But hey, if it helps Hudak get elected, it can't be bad, can it?


edmundoconnor
rabble-rouser-machine
Member: 17949
Joined: Jul 7 2009
Doug
rabble-rouser-supreme
Member: 1044
Joined: Apr 17 2001

First real victim - the library. I guess books are just for elitists or something like that.

 

Despite this, budgetary bureaucrats have put together a provisional plan that suggests taxpayers can save money by shutting the urban-affairs library branch. Its holdings would move to the Reference Library at Yonge and Bloor. A new branch is to open up in the neighbourhood – eventually....The budgetary proposal also envisions the Toronto Public Library – which touts itself as the largest urban library in the world – buying thousands fewer books than it has in years past.


edmundoconnor
rabble-rouser-machine
Member: 17949
Joined: Jul 7 2009

This is my library, that I use every weekday. While I disliked Ford in general, my dislike just got personal.


Aristotleded24
rabble-rouser-machine
Member: 10327
Joined: May 24 2005

Eglington line back on track?

Quote:
"They've communicated back that they understand the importance of the Eglinton line. So we have ... confidence that we will be moving ahead with that particular project," he told CBC News in an interview.

McCuaig's comments come just over a month after Ford said unequivocally that "Transit City is over," referring to the plan to construct an integrated network of light-rail lines across Toronto.

Ford later said his office's most pressing transit priority is to construct a subway line from the Don Mills station eastward to Scarborough Town Centre.

But TTC Chair Karen Stintz told CBC News that the Eglinton LRT may survive because an 11-kilometre stretch is slated to be constructed underground, or "below grade."

"We see that the light-rail transit across Eglinton is below grade," she said. "And even though it's not quote, unquote a subway, it does meet with the mayor's vision that new transit built in Toronto be below surface."


edmundoconnor
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Member: 17949
Joined: Jul 7 2009

Are you sure that's the right link?


Aristotleded24
rabble-rouser-machine
Member: 10327
Joined: May 24 2005

edmundoconnor wrote:
Are you sure that's the right link?

Error corrected.


edmundoconnor
rabble-rouser-machine
Member: 17949
Joined: Jul 7 2009

Is Stintz using the royal "we"? Only a month or so in the job. Talk about delusions of grandeur.


Sineed
rabble-rouser-machine
Member: 12260
Joined: Dec 4 2005

Quote:
"We see that the light-rail transit across Eglinton is below grade," she said. "And even though it's not quote, unquote a subway, it does meet with the mayor's vision that new transit built in Toronto be below surface."

I'm seeing this as a hopeful sign.  That last thing Toronto needs is for Ford to pull a Mike Harris and stubbornly stick to all his promises in defiance of common sense.  The whole "respect for taxpayers" stance may result in a retention of large parts of Transit City.

We'll see in a couple of weeks, when Ford releases his transit plan.


Lard Tunderin Jeezus
rabble-rouser-supreme
Member: 2275
Joined: Aug 27 2001

The Eglinton line has the advantage of having broken ground, so it will proceed. Bizarrely, despite being city-central and having sufficient density to pay its own costs from the outset, it may end up as the slowest and least efficient of the transit lines, if Rob Ford actually can manage to convert the rest of the plan to true subways.

 


edmundoconnor
rabble-rouser-machine
Member: 17949
Joined: Jul 7 2009

Lard Tunderin Jeezus wrote:

The Eglinton line has the advantage of having broken ground, so it will proceed.

I thought the Sheppard line was the only one to have broken ground. Got a link for that?


Doug
rabble-rouser-supreme
Member: 1044
Joined: Apr 17 2001

A great way of responding to library cuts

 

The library in Stony Stratford near Milton Keynes, England, urged its patrons to check out every book on the shelves as a way of proving to the local council that its collection and facilities provide a vital service to the community. Stony Stratford is one of many towns across the UK that are facing severe library closures as the Tory-LibDem coalition government recklessly slashes its transfer payments to local governments (while breaking their promise to rein in enormous bonuses at the banks, even the ones that are owned by the taxpayer).

 

 


Doug
rabble-rouser-supreme
Member: 1044
Joined: Apr 17 2001

A great way of responding to library cuts

 

The library in Stony Stratford near Milton Keynes, England, urged its patrons to check out every book on the shelves as a way of proving to the local council that its collection and facilities provide a vital service to the community. Stony Stratford is one of many towns across the UK that are facing severe library closures as the Tory-LibDem coalition government recklessly slashes its transfer payments to local governments (while breaking their promise to rein in enormous bonuses at the banks, even the ones that are owned by the taxpayer).

 

 


Aristotleded24
rabble-rouser-machine
Member: 10327
Joined: May 24 2005

Sounds like that should endear him to the rabid right wing voters who formed a proper part of his base.


Lard Tunderin Jeezus
rabble-rouser-supreme
Member: 2275
Joined: Aug 27 2001

He can just pay them directly out of his pocket, then.

That is the standard he set with his office budgeting, and I expect him to live up to his own example.


Bacchus
rabble-rouser-machine
Member: 5722
Joined: Dec 8 2003

The 2011 budget figures show the city wants to cut about 470 positions - but then add 518 new ones.



Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2011/01/24/toronto-ford-city-jobs.html#ixzz1C16OKcCv


NDPP
rabble-rouser-for-life
Member: 16891
Joined: Dec 28 2008

'Get A Job' Doug Ford Tells OCAP Protester

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/936252--get-a-job-doug-ford-tells-oc...

"Standing on a hallway desk, OCAP leader John Clarke denounced Council's proposed cuts to bus routes and Mayor Ford's privatization plans, saying Ford was advocating a 're-run of the Mike Harris agenda...'This year they're only delivering the first blow,' Clarke said. 'Much worse is to come. The vision that Ford has of this city is a police force and a few privatized services operated by non-unionized cheap labour.

If we're gonna stop that, we better fight...if you don't fight back, they will crush you."


George Victor
rabble-rouser-for-life
Member: 15683
Joined: Oct 28 2007

Rob Ford has announced that the subway to the east end will be built partly with private capital in a 3P venture. His brother told CBC Radio 1 this morning that the city does not have the money, and "there is lots out there" in those pension funds, looking for someplace to land.

Is anyone surprised?


Lard Tunderin Jeezus
rabble-rouser-supreme
Member: 2275
Joined: Aug 27 2001

Time for the province to step in and place the TTC under Metrolinx auspices, methinks.


Le T
rabble-rouser-machine
Member: 8126
Joined: Oct 17 2004

Quote:
Time for the province to step in and place the TTC under Metrolinx auspices, methinks.

Yes, so the focus of the TTC can become how to best get the 905s to all those great jobs downtown while the inner suburbs continue in isolation.


Aristotleded24
rabble-rouser-machine
Member: 10327
Joined: May 24 2005

Lard Tunderin Jeezus wrote:
Time for the province to step in and place the TTC under Metrolinx auspices, methinks.

You mean ask McGuinty to save the TTC from itself? McGuinty forced the toothpaste out of the tube when he revoked funding for several key Transit City projects. Besides, even if Metrolinx takes over the TTC, what good would that be if Hudak wins a majority and privatizes the whole thing outright?


George Victor
rabble-rouser-for-life
Member: 15683
Joined: Oct 28 2007

Le T wrote:

Quote:
Time for the province to step in and place the TTC under Metrolinx auspices, methinks.

Yes, so the focus of the TTC can become how to best get the 905s to all those great jobs downtown while the inner suburbs continue in isolation.

It is now a 2-hour commute from the city's edges.  The Ford argument is that a subway would reduce that to 25 minutes. And of course, marginalized people aren't going to argue the private/public contest.  Nope, there has to be a better argument against 3P, like it is really coming to be an albatross for Brits since its inception in 1992.


Doug
rabble-rouser-supreme
Member: 1044
Joined: Apr 17 2001
George Victor
rabble-rouser-for-life
Member: 15683
Joined: Oct 28 2007

Has anyone on this board come across a site that tells the story of the British 3P experience over the past two decades? Monbiot? Anyone with broadband service?

Something not so tight-assedly academic as this:

[PDF]

Factors Explaining the Use of Public-Private Partnerships ...

File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
by T Krumm - 2010 - Related articles


M. Spector
\,,/ rabble-rouser-l33t \,,/
Member: 9273
Joined: Feb 19 2005
Doug
rabble-rouser-supreme
Member: 1044
Joined: Apr 17 2001

I was just speechless when I read about this little bit of news:

Mr. Ford’s was the only dissenting vote against a motion reinstating $100,000 in provincial funds for syphilis and HIV screening – a budgetary addition that won’t cost the city anything.

 

 

Though I should mention that some gravy has been found at long last - but let's hope it doesn't get used as an excuse to chop funds for social housing.


George Victor
rabble-rouser-for-life
Member: 15683
Joined: Oct 28 2007

Pee on 3P Laughing


radiorahim
rabble-rouser
Member: 3777
Joined: Jun 17 2002

Doug wrote:

Though I should mention that some gravy has been found at long last - but let's hope it doesn't get used as an excuse to chop funds for social housing.

As Fiorito mentions at the end of his piece, the fundamental problem is that the Mike Harris government downloaded all of their bady maintained provincial social housing onto the municipal government.

But yeah, there's a good chance that Ford will use this managerial stupidness at TCHC as an excuse to cut funding.   It's the kind of thing that right-wing populists do.

 


edmundoconnor
rabble-rouser-machine
Member: 17949
Joined: Jul 7 2009

So not planning on getting any votes in the Village in 2014, then? Ford is completely unable to empathize with anyone who doesn't share his world-view.


radiorahim
rabble-rouser
Member: 3777
Joined: Jun 17 2002

This is very much what he did at the budget consultation meetings.  At the one I was at he stayed until his "plant" made their presentation and then left and told the assembled media that everyone supported what he was doing.   Meanwhile the next couple of hours were filled with folks making presentations opposed to Ford's cuts...in particular cuts to local bus routes.

Ford is prone to saying stupid things and it looks like his handlers are telling him to stick to campaign talking points.


Le T
rabble-rouser-machine
Member: 8126
Joined: Oct 17 2004

Quote:
So not planning on getting any votes in the Village in 2014, then? Ford is completely unable to empathize with anyone who doesn't share his world-view.

Syphilis and HIV affect many people in Toronto regardless of their sexual orientations.


radiorahim
rabble-rouser
Member: 3777
Joined: Jun 17 2002

edmundoconnor wrote:

So not planning on getting any votes in the Village in 2014, then? Ford is completely unable to empathize with anyone who doesn't share his world-view.

I think that the Ford gang is willing to completely write off the old inner city.  The majority of inner city voters supported Smitherman and Pantalone in 2010 and will be even more likely to support someone from the left in 2014.

Ford won the election by sweeping most of Etobicoke, North York and Scarborough where there are more voters.   The challenge for the left in 2014 will be to win in the inner suburbs.

 


Sineed
rabble-rouser-machine
Member: 12260
Joined: Dec 4 2005

Syphilis and HIV are public health problems not restricted to any specific groups.  Treatment and screening efforts are rightly funded by the province, as health care is in the provincial jurisdiction.  Rob Ford's baffling rejection of funding that costs the city nothing, and the completely weird rationalization he made in justification only makes sense in terms of playing to the socially conservative portion of his base, who regard these diseases as a result of moral failings.

Expect him to argue against increased provincial funding of tuberculosis programs in Toronto, since TB is largely a disease of aboriginals, the homeless, the impoverished, and immigrants.  

Such is the problematic moral stance of regarding people as taxpayers rather than citizens.


Stockholm
rabble-rouser-for-life
Member: 4138
Joined: Sep 29 2002

radiorahim wrote:

Ford won the election by sweeping most of Etobicoke, North York and Scarborough where there are more voters.   The challenge for the left in 2014 will be to win in the inner suburbs.

This is why whoever runs against Ford in 2014 (if he even runs again) MUST be someone progressive from the suburbs and not an easily parodied inner city type (are you listening Adam Vaughan?). Its time for Shelly Carroll.


adma
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Member: 12856
Joined: Jan 21 2006

What's even more surreal is that even his supposed ideological bobbsey-twin brother went with the consensus.

Or just, generally--the Mayor as the sole dissenter on anything vs a 44-member Council?

Look--I know it may be erring on the side of caution on everybody's part, left or right; but there's something very macabre here that's being glossed-over--it may be a fashionable spin among Babblers, but you can't simply spin this in terms of Mike Harris-type right-wing-conspiracy.

Consider this--left or right, those who know Rob Ford, "know his number" for the most part.  And don't think that those who're on-side with him are working to advance his agenda, other than through media-friendly mouthing of words.  They're working to salvage his agenda--to save it from itself, so to speak.

And in turn, to save the Mayor from himself.

Given the evidence so far, making a silk (or at least a Bad Boy polyester) purse out of this sow's ear might be a tougher task than Rob Ford's handlers bargained on--indeed, I still can't get over this nagging conviction that some big municipal tragedy without precedent (at least, in a city of this size) is in the offing, something which may involve a "quarantining" of the Mayor, roughly speaking.  At one time, I thought the tragedy'd be externally triggered (like, say, protests leading to Kent State-type killings, or an attempt on his life); now I'm leaning more t/w its being self-inflicted.

As much as opponents want to frame Rob Ford as an uncouth Homer Simpson-type lout, I think the tragic core of his noble-savage electoral appeal may have more to do with a "Ralph Wiggum For President" dynamic--unfortunately in practice, you can only go so far with a paste-eating Mayor.  (And which, ironically enough, brands him as the ultimate beneficiary of that oft-derided-by-his-type goody-goody-touch-feely-politically-correct-70s-lefty "I'm Special" way of thinking.)


Doug
rabble-rouser-supreme
Member: 1044
Joined: Apr 17 2001

He's making me miss Mel Lastman. Surprised


adma
rabble-rouser-machine
Member: 12856
Joined: Jan 21 2006

Thus my "Bad Boy polyester" point.


Lard Tunderin Jeezus
rabble-rouser-supreme
Member: 2275
Joined: Aug 27 2001

Doug wrote:

He's making me miss Mel Lastman. Surprised

I wouldn't go that far.


Catchfire
moderator
Member: 5019
Joined: Apr 16 2003
Le T
rabble-rouser-machine
Member: 8126
Joined: Oct 17 2004

Quote:
This is why whoever runs against Ford in 2014 (if he even runs again) MUST be someone progressive from the suburbs and not an easily parodied inner city type (are you listening Adam Vaughan?). Its time for Shelly Carroll.

Or maybe it's time for "progressives" to ask why a city built on Anishnaabe land and whose population is mostly racialized people has been exclusively lead by white people in the Mayor's chair?


M. Spector
\,,/ rabble-rouser-l33t \,,/
Member: 9273
Joined: Feb 19 2005

Somehow I don't think that the biggest problem with Rob Ford is the colour of his skin.

Would you be happier with Denzil Minnan-Wong in the Mayor's office?


Stockholm
rabble-rouser-for-life
Member: 4138
Joined: Sep 29 2002

...or Michael Thompson???


M. Spector
\,,/ rabble-rouser-l33t \,,/
Member: 9273
Joined: Feb 19 2005

Rob Ford more popular now than he was at the election.

Another good reason to hate Toronto.


Lard Tunderin Jeezus
rabble-rouser-supreme
Member: 2275
Joined: Aug 27 2001

Quote:
"That puts him higher than his vote, so somehow he's got the approval of some of his opponents' supporters, which I think is quite a task, especially given how polarizing the election was," said Lorne Bozinoff, the president of Forum Research. "My gut feel is that's a good rating."

My gut feel is that this poll is bought-and-paid bullshit.


Stockholm
rabble-rouser-for-life
Member: 4138
Joined: Sep 29 2002

I'm not the least surprised - since the election Ford has done the really easy popular stuff - freezing property taxes, stopping TTC strikes, getting rid of some trivial but symbolic perks - and none of the draconian cuts he will inevitably have to bring in have been unveiled yet - so unless you're a member of CUPE - what's not to like?

Meanwhile Ford is now saying that if McGuinty doesn't give him $150 million right away, he will campaign against him in the Oct. election. That should be amusing. I doubt if Hudak will be in any hurry to give Toronto that money. in fact the only party that wants the Ontario gov't to give a lot more money to Toronto is the NDP. I wonder if Ford plans to campagn alongside Andrea Horwath next Fall?


Le T
rabble-rouser-machine
Member: 8126
Joined: Oct 17 2004

Quote:
Mr. Ford has encountered little effective opposition in his first three months as mayor. As promised, he scrapped the $60 vehicle registration fee, reduced councillors' office budgets and banned free food from council meetings.

He also shepherded a budget with a tax freeze through city council.

My gut feeling is that the G&M article is also a piece of crap. They left out how he blew Miller's surplus to balance his budget, cut the cop budget instead of hiring 100 cops, made major cuts to services though he said that he wouldn't and went to the province for money. I guess after they tried to make a story out of Ford being a documented repeat liar and no one cared, journalists have just started letting his mound of lies fester in the corner without picking it up.

Ford is also 22% below where Miller was at the same time in their terms. Likely much lower than whoever white-knights Ford's mess in 3.5 years.

 


M. Spector
\,,/ rabble-rouser-l33t \,,/
Member: 9273
Joined: Feb 19 2005

Yup, here's the Toronto Star's article onthe Tea Party North: http://www.thestar.com/news/article/949127--building-ford-nation


Lard Tunderin Jeezus
rabble-rouser-supreme
Member: 2275
Joined: Aug 27 2001

FORD Nation:

  1. An astroturf lobby group funded by the wealthy, and fronted by angry bigoted old white men.
  2. The nation as envisioned by FORD, the Fascist Order of Racist Dingbats.


Rebecca West
moderator
Member: 2873
Joined: Nov 28 2001

Closed for length.


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