"School shopping" in Ontario based on income and ethnicity

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Stockholm

"Go to the school in your community."

The reality is that there are wealthy communities and not so wealthy communities etc...If you already live in Forest Hill - I would guess that no matter which school you send your kids to in your community - they will all be schools with a preponderance of kids from well-to-do families where going to university is expected of everyone. If you live in most parts of Scarborough - no matter which school you choose that is in your zone - is probably going to be about the same in terms of socio-economics - so what can a parent even do with any of this info. Where the rubber hits the road is when people decide where they want to live - and in those cases its all pretty simple - most people try to live in the nicest area they can afford.

Bookish Agrarian

Hey Tommy

SSC obviously doesn't get it.  This thing I am typing on is a machine.  A new fangled machine, but little different than a typewriter.  If SSC is a doctor his entire worklife is surrounded by - wait for it - machines.  We are all slaves to a machine of some kind, the only difference is the complexity.

There are shitty schools in the best of areas, and great schools in the shittiest of areas.  Good schools have almost nothing to do with their location.  The type of parents who take their kids to the 'best' schools are probably the least qualified to even understand what a good school is.  The best of schools teach kids to think for themselvs, the worst of schools are teaching them to be cogs in the wheel.  You will never convince me that has anything to do with soci-economic or demographic determinism.

 

remind remind's picture

I want to know why people think that those who make the machines they use in the everyday life, such as the machines SCC does not apparently realize he is using, are thought to be less than those who use them? Just as farmers are socially devalued, when indeed without farmers,  those who do not provide their own food, would all die.

The false premise of superiority, is just that, and those who buy into it, really just want to feel they are "special", "better than", "more important to the functioning of society", etc, when it is all lies, and phoney ego boosts, and allow people to comfortably exploit others. Easy to do when one thinks one is better than.

Here is a heads up. All people shit the same way, even the Queen and the Pope..

riffraffrenegade

Star Spangled Canadian wrote:

Even so, I would imagine that there would be certain schools that you wouldn't send them to in a million years.

And I have no intention of sacrificing my son's education to make some stand against polarization.

What has happened to my son's school has happened in less than one generation and largely because of the publication of EQAO scores.  Without major education policy change, one generation from now my son's elementary school may look a whole lot more like that inner city high school you describe.  At our school's last School Safety Committee, our police chief  informed us that the two elementary schools have staggered start and dismissal times in order to reduce the incidence of altercations between students at the two schools. Nothing new, I guess, in my childhood the divsion was based on religion but now the Separate school is more middle class than Catholic.

We are writing off children at the age of 4.  My eldest son figured out at the age of seven that he was considered lesser than his counterparts at the separate school.  We're talking about kids that are for the most part caucasians of European extraction and who have relatives attending the other school.

I have no intention of sacrificing my sons' education either.  I value teaching them about compassion, social responsibility and social justice as much as I do teaching them the three Rs (and Latin & ancient Greek, their latest passions).  I just don't want a future where I have to visit them in gated communities surrounded by walls topped with broken glass.

Rexdale_Punjabi Rexdale_Punjabi's picture

lol the fights n 50% thing sounds like NACI mos def lol but on a dif tip. Yo SSC do you wonder why kids act like that? Do u think of the environment? by the time you 12 or 13 you got cops trying to put a record on you you got bare shit ur kids aint gotta put up with. And we all human so how the fucc you gonna look down on ppl who don't make it when yall couldn't get through 1/2 the obstacles and ye the thinking is yo.

 

I aint goin to the NBA n I aint a rappa I got this cracc right here why the fucc am I in school when all I can do in 2 years is work min wage Ima drop out n try n make some money n get my momz some brand name groceries nigga. Str8 up

Star Spangled C...

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

SSC obviously doesn't get it.  This thing I am typing on is a machine.  A new fangled machine, but little different than a typewriter.  If SSC is a doctor his entire worklife is surrounded by - wait for it - machines.  We are all slaves to a machine of some kind, the only difference is the complexity.

Yes, I'm surrounded by machines. But those machines were thought up, designed and built by someone with critical thinking and evaluative skills; the ability to recognize a need for said machine, to figure out how it would work, etc. And then when I, the doctor, use a machine - say an MRI...I then need to use the analytical skills that I've developed to actually evaluate the information that the machine gave me, determine what this means for the aptient, determine the best course of treatment based on a variety of factors (severity, patient's age, any comorbidities or other medical conditions). Once that treatment is delivered, I need to be able to evaluate its success, make adjsutments if anything isn't as it should be, etc.

Tommy_Paine

Well, yes, a scalpel is a wedge or inclined plane that allows us to do work by providing mechanical advantage, much the same as forceps are rather simple levers.    If it helps the good doctor's self esteem that he's above using machines like some kind of grease monkey like me, that's okay.  Now that I'm 50, I want my doctors in as good a mood as possible when they use a wedge or lever to check for polyps.

 

 

 

Star Spangled C...

remind wrote:

 Just as farmers are socially devalued, when indeed without farmers,  those who do not provide their own food, would all die.

Are farmers socially devalued? Maybe it's jsut where I am, but I and everyone I know have the utmost respect for farmers. Farmers are actually often among the best educated and knowledgeable members of society, not to mention among the hardest working.

Rexdale_Punjabi Rexdale_Punjabi's picture

Star Spangled Canadian wrote:

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

SSC obviously doesn't get it.  This thing I am typing on is a machine.  A new fangled machine, but little different than a typewriter.  If SSC is a doctor his entire worklife is surrounded by - wait for it - machines.  We are all slaves to a machine of some kind, the only difference is the complexity.

Yes, I'm surrounded by machines. But those machines were thought up, designed and built by someone with critical thinking and evaluative skills; the ability to recognize a need for said machine, to figure out how it would work, etc. And then when I, the doctor, use a machine - say an MRI...I then need to use the analytical skills that I've developed to actually evaluate the information that the machine gave me, determine what this means for the aptient, determine the best course of treatment based on a variety of factors (severity, patient's age, any comorbidities or other medical conditions). Once that treatment is delivered, I need to be able to evaluate its success, make adjsutments if anything isn't as it should be, etc.

and you realize that doesn't make you better then a avg worker right? this superiority complex u got I can't understand it cuz str8 up I can take a kid from the hood and he could proly learn ur job faster than you can with less training. Aint tryna insult you but the realness of it is that you just got a change to move up u were just luccy you aint special and you aint better then any1 else.

 

edit- And SSC what bothers ppl aint u wanting a better education for ur kids but ur belief that "worse" kids go to some schools then others and there lesser and better ppl. you got a superiority complex cuz u live in a bubble cuz you need to go see shit guess you too old now but think about it like this you doin a surgery. You think you speical cuz u the main surgeon but you wouldnt be shit without the other ppl helping you. You think you better cuz you the "mastermind" of the plan but the thing is any of those ppl could even be a better surgeon then you if they were as luccy as you. And you cant function without them so ur superiority complex has no root or meaning because ur not independent of any othe ppl you look down upon. You depend on them more then they depend on you. So by ur own thinking who really better?

Star Spangled C...

Rexdale_Punjabi wrote:

and you realize that doesn't make you better then a avg worker right? this superiority complex u got I can't understand it cuz str8 up I can take a kid from the hood and he could proly learn ur job faster than you can with less training. Aint tryna insult you but the realness of it is that you just got a change to move up u were just luccy you aint special and you aint better then any1 else.

never said I was better than anyone else based on what I do. I was pointing out that the economy today is a lot different than it was even 20 years ago. Our industrialized economy is disappearing and the opportunities for unskilled workers are shrinking like crazy. My mom grew up in hamilton, Ontario. When she graduated high school, lots of students in her class took a job at one of the steel mills. All you needed back then was a high school education. And you had a good, decent-paying job that would allow you to buy a home, support a family, etc. and then retire on a nice pension. Well, today, thousands of workers at those plants are losing their jobs. And jobs that were once filled by high school graduates are being filled by people with engineering degrees. The economy today is absed on knowledge that comes from education.

Star Spangled C...

Rexdale_Punjabi wrote:

lol the fights n 50% thing sounds like NACI mos def lol but on a dif tip. Yo SSC do you wonder why kids act like that? Do u think of the environment? by the time you 12 or 13 you got cops trying to put a record on you you got bare shit ur kids aint gotta put up with. And we all human so how the fucc you gonna look down on ppl who don't make it when yall couldn't get through 1/2 the obstacles and ye the thinking is yo.

 

No one is disputing that there are root social causes that contribute to many of the problems in our schools. And no one is saying that these issues don't need to be addressed. I'm saying that, in the meantime, I'm gonna do what's best for my son...even if that can arm someone to accsue me of contributing to "social fragmentation."

Rexdale_punajbi, if you had kids and had the option of sending to school A where there was no violence or behavioural problems, where kids got good grades and msot went on to university or school B where there were fights all the time, drug problems, there was a massive dropout rate, disruptions in class were constant and most never went on to university, which would you choose?

St. Paul's Prog...

I went to Harbord Collegiate in Toronto in the 50s, which at the time served a very working class and lower middle class area.  It had an excellent reputation at the time, and lots of people went on to become doctors, lawyers, teachers and academics - and many of these people of course moved north to places like Forest Hill (the Montreal equivalent would have been Baron Byng high school).  I later transferred to Oakwood Collegiate, which (then) had a good reputation as well.  It seems to me that the quality of education in working class and poorer areas has declined greatly, and the gap between richer and poorer schools has increased greatly.  Perhaps there was more optimism about the future then, though of course schools were more adequately funded than they are today.

Tommy_Paine

I tend to think that we all over value our contributions and value in society, and undervalue the other person's contributions.   Were everyone as dillegent a worker or professional as they thought they were,  my gosh, what a utopia we'd be living in!

Not to get too far off track-- and I will endeavor to bring it back to the topic-- I think rich or poor, Doctor or factory worker,  miner or farmer,  we in this country have a far too utilitarian view of education. 

If larnin' something don't make ya money, than what in tarnation is it good for?

Both proponents and detractors from school shopping seem to be undervaluing the real point of education.

 

 

Caissa

The problem is the choice between A and B is rarely as stark as you are drawing it SSC.

Bookish Agrarian

remind wrote:

Here is a heads up. All people shit the same way, even the Queen and the Pope..

 

That's from the big toe like me right?

On the broader point you are totally correct.  We are a society that devalues those who work with their hands in any way that suggests manual labour.  You can see it everywhere, and our education system is just a reflection of that broader disdain.  There seems to be this thought that if you do manual labour it must be because there is nothing between your ears.  My life experience has often suggested it is the other way around, but I suppose I shouldn't base my prejudices on people who work in government call in centres.

Rexdale_Punjabi Rexdale_Punjabi's picture

Star Spangled Canadian wrote:

Rexdale_Punjabi wrote:

lol the fights n 50% thing sounds like NACI mos def lol but on a dif tip. Yo SSC do you wonder why kids act like that? Do u think of the environment? by the time you 12 or 13 you got cops trying to put a record on you you got bare shit ur kids aint gotta put up with. And we all human so how the fucc you gonna look down on ppl who don't make it when yall couldn't get through 1/2 the obstacles and ye the thinking is yo.

 

No one is disputing that there are root social causes that contribute to many of the problems in our schools. And no one is saying that these issues don't need to be addressed. I'm saying that, in the meantime, I'm gonna do what's best for my son...even if that can arm someone to accsue me of contributing to "social fragmentation."

Rexdale_punajbi, if you had kids and had the option of sending to school A where there was no violence or behavioural problems, where kids got good grades and msot went on to university or school B where there were fights all the time, drug problems, there was a massive dropout rate, disruptions in class were constant and most never went on to university, which would you choose?

B cuz most likeley that be us. Id b like yo see this school right here muthafucca? these ur ppl if I see ur ass slaccin ima beat ur ass down. You gonna make something of urself, you gonna help ur friends make something, and you gonna make sure you good at running n never get caught by the coppaz. Don't get involved in the hood tingz cuz then they got you we gonna make something n we gonna take bacc what ours str8 upp. Instill the flame of revolution nigga

 

edit- And what caissa said this city is segregated enuff so that the dif is here ill give an example of my area. West Humber it got a football team but if u from the wrong blocc ull get popped. NACI next to fiends no teams n closer to the station. (then agen they built the station in the heart of the hood). Carr is catholic, got bare brainers, good ball team, but it built like a prison. Johnson is farther lots of ppl go to it n it catholic. That the choices. They all hood schools so take what u will it comes down to in a guys POV 3 things.  girls, money, n ur boiz.

Unionist

Caissa wrote:

The problem is the choice between A and B is rarely as stark as you are drawing it SSC.

Not really. The problem is that SSC loves class-ridden society, where the rich and the poor each keep to their own. Same on the world scale. If you had a choice for your kid to grow up in a wealthy Canadian suburb or in Darfur, which would you choose? That's the logic of the status-quo lovers. Naturally, only they have the choice, and if anyone else intruded on their pleasure palace, you'd see the fangs come out awfully fast.

 

 

Rexdale_Punjabi Rexdale_Punjabi's picture

Tommy_Paine wrote:

I tend to think that we all over value our contributions and value in society, and undervalue the other person's contributions.   Were everyone as dillegent a worker or professional as they thought they were,  my gosh, what a utopia we'd be living in!

Not to get too far off track-- and I will endeavor to bring it back to the topic-- I think rich or poor, Doctor or factory worker,  miner or farmer,  we in this country have a far too utilitarian view of education. 

If larnin' something don't make ya money, than what in tarnation is it good for?

Both proponents and detractors from school shopping seem to be undervaluing the real point of education.

 

 

that another topic. The "school system" will never teach you anything that would empower the ppl. That up to u to learn we gotta get that done. Str8 up listen to the ogz they tell you stay in school but dont ever forget where u come from. You need a fuccin peice of paper to prove to some corporate muthafucca who pissed off cuz he can't get laid that you qualified it messed up but u gotta live in it till you get enuff power to change it

 

edit- exactly bookish and till this recession happen (idk even know now lol) it was like this. Doctor or other "smart job" go to uni after high school. Work for free for awhile ull b 35-40 till you start cakin. "Stupid" Job in the trades. Get outa high school u gettin 20-25 for learning ur job and getting expierience. 3-4 years later u get even more ur still in ur 20z. By the time ur 30 you can team up w/ ppl start a business n you basically retired. What really "smarter".

Caissa

I'm still waiting for your education programme Rexdale Punjabi. How would you from your POV as a student change the sytem to make it more meaningful?

Star Spangled C...

B cuz most likeley that be us. Id b like yo see this school right here muthafucca? these ur ppl if I see ur ass slaccin ima beat ur ass down. You gonna make something of urself, you gonna help ur friends make something, and you gonna make sure you good at running n never get caught by the coppaz. Don't get involved in the hood tingz cuz then they got you we gonna make something n we gonna take bacc what ours str8 upp. Instill the flame of revolution nigga

 

I will suggest that when you become a parent, your attitude will change. Also, I'm not a moderator but could we perhaps not use the "n-word"?