School shopping in Ontario; the sequel

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Cueball Cueball's picture

Stephen Gordon wrote:

Is it sufficient reason to suppress publicly-available data? Should StatsCan stop asking for socio-economic information? Should the existing data be erased? Should those who have seen it be sworn to silence?

Why?

To save some incompetent school administrators from embarassment?

Good point. Maybe they should also identify the ethnicity of the teachers and adminstrators as well. Most badly run schools are run by white people I'll have you know. It would be nice to have the statistical data on that. Wink

Stephen Gordon

Cueball wrote:

Stephen Gordon wrote:

Is it sufficient reason to suppress publicly-available data? Should StatsCan stop asking for socio-economic information? Should the existing data be erased? Should those who have seen it be sworn to silence?

Why?

To save some incompetent school administrators from embarassment?

Good point. Maybe they should also identify the ethnicity of the teachers and adminstrators as well. Wink

From a statistical standpoint, that would be irrelevant. It may well be that having a teaching staff whose ethnicity reflects that of the students would be an advantage. But that would show up in the educational outcomes. Which is all we really care about.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Oh suddenly "precision" data is irrelevant.

Rexdale_Punjabi Rexdale_Punjabi's picture

Cueball wrote:

Oh suddenly "precision" data is irrelevant.

 

HE GOT CAUGHT SON. and for census data on a precise kind of lvl cant u just google toronto wards and see the shit on there? they made it more precise recently still.

Makwa Makwa's picture

Cueball wrote:

Oh suddenly "precision" data is irrelevant.

Presumably, it depends on the context, cueB

Stephen Gordon

Makwa wrote:

I disagree.  Precision data on human lives is held in trust, that that information should be used only for non-intrusive means.  To allow that to be used for propaganda and fear mongering would be a terrible betrayal.  

I simply don't see this. To me, I see the possibility for empowerment that come from being better-informed: low-income families (or middle-income, come to that) need not accept bad schools as their inevitable fate.

Cueball Cueball's picture

It is also true that most good schools are run by white people, since most schools are run by white people. Statistics are fun to spin, don't you think? But then, such data might actually be useful for those who are interested in the impact that affirmative hiring practices might have on the school system, since one would be able to compare performace in schools staffed by people representative of the community.

Or is that going too far Stephen? What abour your school? Does it suck?

Stephen Gordon

Oh, that data would indeed be useful for schools and for school boards in determining their hiring policies. But they already have it.

Rexdale_Punjabi Rexdale_Punjabi's picture

Cueball wrote:

It is also true that most good schools are run by white people, since most schools are run by white people. Statistics are fun to spin, don't you think? But then, such data might actually be useful for those who are interested in the impact that affirmative hiring practices might have on the school system, since one would be able to compare performace in schools staffed by people representative of the community.

Or is that going too far Stephen? What abour your school? Does it suck?

thing about it is goin farther then race most of the minorities who hired are younger even the older ones are more chillin. A lot of the teachers tho are old white ppl w/ a sticc up they ass they make the chillin ones look bad.

Makwa Makwa's picture

Stephen Gordon wrote:
I simply don't see this. To me, I see the possibility for empowerment that come from being better-informed: low-income families (or middle-income, come to that) need not accept bad schools as their inevitable fate.
I realize you don't see it, and I honestly don't think you do so out of malice.  You are coming from a conception of social order which is rationalized across all players.  You can't see how people in socially constrained situations simply can't make rational market choices.  

I suggest, as difficult as it might be, to reread some of Rpubjabi's posts.  

As styalized as some of his language is, it is actually to my eye, a very perceptive analysis of how young people of his peer group percieve and analyze social systems.

Given the awareness that education and ideology will determine one's abiltiy to make choices, what is the potential of opening 'choice' to the marginalized, without the potential of educational support?

You would be merely opening them up to the middle class stealing everything from them again.

Stephen Gordon, I suggest that you merely wish to find a more sophisticated method by which the wealthy control the education of the voiceless, as they always have.

Bookish Agrarian

Mr. Gordon.  What is it you don't get that what determines a good school or a bad school for that matter is not the soci-economic or ethnic backgrouds of the parents of the students attending that school.  That information is not only irrelevant to school choice it is anathama to an open, tolerant and democratic society.

Bookish Agrarian

Maysie wrote:

Bookish, for you. Baby goats from Riverdale Farm last year, just down the street from me. This is the closest a big city gal like me gets to farm animals.

Smile

Goats are hilarious creatures.  My partner, as a child, had a goat that would spend his days riding around on the back of the sheep.  I am sure it was just to annoy them.

Rexdale_Punjabi Rexdale_Punjabi's picture

Makwa wrote:

Stephen Gordon wrote:
I simply don't see this. To me, I see the possibility for empowerment that come from being better-informed: low-income families (or middle-income, come to that) need not accept bad schools as their inevitable fate.
I realize you don't see it, and I honestly don't think you do so out of malice.  You are coming from a conception of social order which is rationalized across all players.  You can't see how people in socially constrained situations simply can't make rational market choices.  

I suggest, as difficult as it might be, to reread some of Rpubjabi's posts.  

As styalized as some of his language is, it is actually to my eye, a very perceptive analysis of how young people of his peer group percieve and analyze social systems.

Given the awareness that education and ideology will determine one's abiltiy to make choices, what is the potential of opening 'choice' to the marginalized, without the potential of educational support?

You would be merely opening them up to the middle class stealing everything from them again.

Stephen Gordon, I suggest that you merely wish to find a more sophisticated method by which the wealthy control the education of the voiceless, as they always have.

I dont even remember what I said no more lol I know I had a lot to say in the other thread this one mostly been other tingz. But yea it irrelevant money n color dont make a good or bad school. All I need to say. Cuz look at how it is. Poor ppl even if we got a computer will in the majority of cases not know about this, care about it, or look it up because we dont choose where we live, and even if we did we cant move into a richer area anyway.  All this is is rich ass parents lookin it up so their kids aint gotta be with poorer n darker ppl.  I can see it bein more of a case if there daughters involved. Yall know racist classist white ppl are when it comes to that lol

Stephen Gordon

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

Mr. Gordon. What is it you don't get that what determines a good school or a bad school for that matter is not the soci-economic or ethnic backgrouds of the parents of the students attending that school. That information is not only irrelevant to school choice it is anathama to an open, tolerant and democratic society.

 

Others here have claimed that pretty much *all* of the variation in school quality can be ascribed to socio-economic factors; my reading of the evidence is that some of it is.

But the point here is that by making that information unavailable, claims to the effect that socio-economic effects always and everywhere account for poor educational outcomes ("Really! I've seen the data! You're not allowed to see the numbers, but trust me - it's really your fault for being poor!") can't be challenged.

Bookish Agrarian

The only use such data will ever be put to is "I don't want my kids going to school with them!"  That is the real world application of your theoretic model.

This is not anywhere near the same as measuring school success based on a multitude of factors, only one of which should be grade scores.  This information was specifically detailing the economic and ethnic background of the parents of the student body and making it availavle to the public like it meant something.  That data is not relevant to what is or isn't a successful school.

Rexdale_Punjabi Rexdale_Punjabi's picture

Stephen Gordon wrote:

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

Mr. Gordon. What is it you don't get that what determines a good school or a bad school for that matter is not the soci-economic or ethnic backgrouds of the parents of the students attending that school. That information is not only irrelevant to school choice it is anathama to an open, tolerant and democratic society.

 

Others here have claimed that pretty much *all* of the variation in school quality can be ascribed to socio-economic factors; my reading of the evidence is that some of it is.

But the point here is that by making that information unavailable, claims to the effect that socio-economic effects always and everywhere account for poor educational outcomes ("Really! I've seen the data! You're not allowed to see the numbers, but trust me - it's really your fault for being poor!") can't be challenged.

 

but ya see it aint about bein low-income it about bein poor. There a dif a poor area will have a lot more shit it aint about the money it about what around it. The copz, the gloccz, the roccz, the chopz, n the single mothaz workin non-stop. It shit like that n more that others aint facin. The gangz that bang on the strip where manz hang, n the boi who come n hit u in the chins try 2 put u in the bin.

 

n dont get it twisted gangs serve n protect more then the police ever do or even want to

Stephen Gordon

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

The only use such data will ever be put to is "I don't want my kids going to school with them!"  That is the real world application of your theoretic model.

So should StatsCan stop asking those questions? This is publicly-available data.

Quote:

This is not anywhere near the same as measuring school success based on a multitude of factors, only one of which should be grade scores.  This information was specifically detailing the economic and ethnic background of the parents of the student body and making it availavle to the public like it meant something.  That data is not relevant to what is or isn't a successful school.

But apparently there are people - here on babble, even! - willing to use the socio-economic backgrounds of students as an explanation for poor school performance. Why not make it easier to call them on it?

Makwa Makwa's picture

Rexdale_Punjabi wrote:
The copz, the gloccz, the roccz, the chopz, n the single mothaz workin non-stop. It shit like that n more that others aint facin. The gangz that bang on the strip where manz hang, n the boi who come n hit u in the chins try 2 put u in the bin.
RexdaleP.  This is where you have to try to understand that communication is more than merely throwing out your particular poetic expression.  Please do not believe for one minute that you are the only person who has ever spent time in a housing project, or a crack house, or lived with a single parent on welfare in a project, or has spent time on the street, or in a hostel.  It's time to stop hiding behind the rhymes and speak for yourself.  I'm too old, and too tired, and been through too much to make rhymes up.  All I have now, is the bit of education I was able to manage through the shit.  So stop playing.  You are too fucking smart.

Bookish Agrarian

Mr Gordon you continue to put words in my mouth, if you have an ethical compass you will stop it now.

I did not say that background doesn't have, or could have an impact on educational outcomes, what I have said it that what makes a school good or not has nothing to do with the economic and ethnic backgrounds of the parents of the student body.  That is significantly different than what you imply.

Just curious if you bothered to read what this thread is about.  The Ministry of Education was making avialable school rankings based solely on marks and the make up of the student body.  That is a false premise on how a good school is defined and an approach to education that strikes me as rather consumerist oriented.  Not to mention completely useless.

Unionist

C'mon, Makwa, Rexdale is just speaking [url=http://www.urbanchat.com/index.php]Urban Chat[/url]. Spend some time on that site and you'll be fluent. R_P has every right to speak in any dialect he wants.

 

Rexdale_Punjabi Rexdale_Punjabi's picture

Unionist wrote:

C'mon, Makwa, Rexdale is just speaking [url=http://www.urbanchat.com/index.php]Urban Chat[/url]. Spend some time on that site and you'll be fluent. R_P has every right to speak in any dialect he wants.

 

wtf is urban chat man it like there all these new sites tryna teach ppl the game n the streets lol. that shit looks like a dif version of vibe.to U gotta realize there no 1 way the streets speak. East Coast, West Coast, South Side, Golf Coast, North Side all got dif. East n North are somewhat similar but TO got south side shit in it and Carib tingz as well as TO tingz. Every city, state etc speaks a bit dif. or r u being sarcastic?

 

lol unionist

Stephen Gordon

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

Mr Gordon you continue to put words in my mouth, if you have an ethical compass you will stop it now.

I did not say that background doesn't have, or could have an impact on educational outcomes, what I have said it that what makes a school good or not has nothing to do with the economic and ethnic backgrounds of the parents of the student body.  That is significantly different than what you imply.

Just curious if you bothered to read what this thread is about.  The Ministry of Education was making avialable school rankings based solely on marks and the make up of the student body.  That is a false premise on how a good school is defined and an approach to education that strikes me as rather consumerist oriented.  Not to mention completely useless.

But that's *exactly* the information we want! School rankings without socio-economic information is not enough. A non-white, non-rich family should be able to quickly identify schools where non-white, non-rich kids do relatively well. And non-white, non-rich families who find that their local school's poor perfomance cannot be blamed on the students' backgrounds should be endowed with a bloody great cudgel with which to bash the school's administration. Neither of these outcomes can occur if the relevant data are kept a secret known only to those with the time and expertise to sort through the census data.

And yes, it is consumerist-oriented. The interests of students - the consumers - are paramount. At least, they should be.

Maysie Maysie's picture

Okay, long thread. Please start a new one if you like, people.

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