Babble Discussions, continued. A new

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KenS
Babble Discussions, continued. A new

start would be nice though.

KenS

So, how about...

Yiwah wrote:

In the online context, I am not assuming people know I am female and thus are reacting to me as a female.  Instead, I believe that the discussions themselves are conducted in a gendered manner, with traditionally 'male' methods of discussion overpowering other forms of communication.  I also believe that there is a particular cultural paradigm within which these conversations happen which in fact are NOT inclusive of other cultural methods of having discussions.  

So while I agree that space needs to be made for a plurality of voices, I do not believe that is a possibility when the current form of discussion is skewed in favour of one gender, and one culture.  What I mean is, there can be no 'change from the inside' in the sense of simply speaking the way you speak as an outsider to the majority paradigm, because the majority paradigm does not value other ways of speaking.

milo204

"I also believe that there is a particular cultural paradigm within which these conversations happen which in fact are NOT inclusive of other cultural methods of having discussions."

Can someone, Yiwah preferably, elaborate on what some other cultural forms of discussion entail?  I'm not sure what this means in practice.   

KenS

She elaborated on it before, and you responded after.

But here it is again:

Yiwah wrote:

My 2 cents plus without inflation, just like Treaty money...

I feel that discussions, not just here online, indeed to have a gendered dynamic to them.  However, I also feel that they have a cultural dynamic to them. I adapt to this, perhaps unconsciously, by being more impatient and more aggressive than I feel like I actually am.

What I grew up with was patient listening.  Everyone gets a say, and they get to say it just the way they want to, quietly, loudly, angrily or not.  I'm not very good at it anymore.  I've become less good at it the further I've pursued 'higher education' in the very Western institutions I've attended.  It's frustrating for me, because while it allows me to communicate better than I was able to before (communicate to those who value Western cultural norms of discussion), it also makes me feel like I'm communicating less effectively because I'm contributing to the culture that drowns out others' voices.  Sure, it's a bit exciting sometimes, but it's not all that collaborative, and it's extremely adversarial.  I don't like it, but every time I try to break out of it in this context, it backfires.  I get to 'relax' when I'm outside of that context, and communicate in a way I feel is more respectful of differing opinions. 

So I recognise that the dynamic definitely affects the conversation, I just don't know how to go about changing the dynamic because it colours even they way we talk about the dynamic.

KenS

                 Shrek's Onion of Male Discussion Domination

"Like ogres, male domination has layers."

[no Donkey, not like parfait.]

 

The Outer Layer    =   Blatant sexist language.

The Inner Layer    =   Overwhelming with quantity... men swarming like ants, sheer volume of male chatter, etcetera.

Layer of The Mysterious Inner Sanctum    =    Overwhelming with "quality". We certainly know what qualities make for the best kind of argument. Even more: the best endpoint. Nay, the only endpoint that counts. Naturally, so as well is it for the revolution.

Bubbles

I am not sure if one can compare face to face discussions with internet forum discussions. In one situation one knows who is listening and can more or less tailor communication to the individual(s) one is adressing. Some require an unrelated discussion, to create the ambience for the tougher parts. It is much easier to see if one is still in the comfort zone. In an internet discussion, like babble, One does no know who one is adressing, neither can one see the initial reaction.

 

milo204

i agree bubbles.  We're all just talking to a screen.  

I don't agree with the point about the quantity though.  the swarming like ants reference makes me think of two people having a conversation and then a bunch of men swarming around them and all trying to talk at once!  I've seen a few references on the boards to this kind of thing but can someone present a real life example/hypothetical situation?

Same with the quality thing.  I mean, everyone who who is having a disagreement over politics is generally pretty passionate about them being right.  And someone challenging points you've made is obviously going to say " i think you're wrong about this that and the other thing", i don't think that's sexist as much as just the only constructive way to have a discussion.  How do you reason with someone other than by presenting a better quality argument?  

or is the quality thing meant sarcastically.  They really present BAD arguments (ignoring most relevant facts, repeating orthodoxy) but refuse to see the flaws in them?

To me it seems the only cure to male domination of discussions then is to democratize the agenda setting media or present viable alternatives so that women have a say in what gets said. 

6079_Smith_W

milo204 wrote:

I mean, everyone who who is having a disagreement over politics is generally pretty passionate about them being right.

That is a very telling statement right there. Thanks very much for bringing it up.

A big problem in discussions is people going into them with that very idea in mind. In fact, being right is probably one of the least important things in a discussion. None of us has exactly the same perspective on an issue and the point of a discussion should not be to bring everyone else over to my opinion, but instead to learn how we approach it differently, and how work together with an understanding of each others' perspectives.

You are never going to find a situation where everyone thinks exactly the same, except if you are in a room all by yourself. So really, it's irrelevant. Maybe, in a discussion, some people might be influenced by what you have to say, but I think it is more important to be passionate about learning what others have to say, and helping us all get a solid understanding of the topic at hand, that about being right and trying to win the debate.

Not that it is bad to be passionate about an idea; it is a very good thing. but if you attach your ego to it - if you become so rigid that you hear anything other than your opinion as a personal challenge, or if the only possible outcomes you see are a personal win or a personal loss, then that passion is a very bad thing. Really, if we all work together to gain a better understanding of something, we all win no matter who brought what to the table.

Keep the discussion on the idea, not the person.

remind remind's picture

wonderful to see men denying gendered control of this forum and society....ffs.

6079_Smith_W

remind wrote:

wonderful to see men denying gendered control of this forum and society....ffs.

Not wonderful, but not surprising either. This is after all, a 101 class, unlike the feminist forum.

I'm just happy to see someone take the initiative to post here in the first place; the whole point of this thread is for us to learn, so I think any honest statement is a good thing.

It's cetainly better than ignoring this discussion entirely.

Caissa

You see why some of us are ignoring this discussion.

remind remind's picture

an honest statement?

 

lol

IMV, I figure they are ignoring it.....no matter wherther they post or don't.

writer writer's picture

But Caissa, you are not ignoring this discussion. You are posting from time to time, making it very clear that you couldn't be bothered to post anything meaningful in discussions on this subject that are of such low quality.

What compels you to weigh in with nothing? Why do you think this needs to be communicated repeatedly? What are you saying to participants, other than that you are above and beyond us?

Quote:

To me it seems the only cure to male domination of discussions then is to democratize the agenda setting media or present viable alternatives so that women have a say in what gets said.

Exactly why rabble was created. So why does babble continue to fall short? And what can we do about it?

Caissa

I pointing out this is not a safe thread to have a discussion in.  Carry on.

writer writer's picture

If a babbler wants a male-only thread for such a discussion, s/he only needs to raise that as the intent in the OP.

6079_Smith_W

@ Caissa

Friendly comment here - not trying to be snarky. I'm not sure if you were asking me a question or pointing out my comment as a reason why this thread should be ignored - though it doesn't matter either way.

But regarding your point, yes, I read at least one comment in the feminist forum about not wanting to have to teach men and re-do 101 all the time, so I am quite aware there are plenty of people - men and women - who for their own reasons find this process distasteful and offensive and don't want to have anything to do with it. Of course people are ignoring this thread.

That doesn't change the fact that there is a problem that need to be addressed. Somebody needs to do the work and it has to start somewhere, and I am glad to see that KenS is doing the gruntwork of making sure this space is here, whether it is used or not.

And personally, I would rather hear an honest opinion that is ignorant and perhaps offensive than a someone mouthing platitudes in order to sound correct and not offend, but not learning anything at all. Nothing will ever change otherwise, and nor will anything change if people come in here expecting overnight conversions and awareness, and reject it when they discover that that is not how things work.

When it comes to offensive and ignorant comments there is a big difference between a mean-spirited attack and an honest expression. I have let enough comments that I find personally offensive slide by because I have a little (though by no means perfect) understanding of the difference.

Now I am sorry if we offend, and if you want to stay away because this is not a safe place for you then I understand perfectly. But I would rather see someone trying to do the work than to have it left undone altogether. If you have a better idea I am all ears

But thanks for your input, and the same to remind and especially writer. Whether you intend to or not, your comments help, IMO.

 

 

No Yards No Yards's picture

What question is being asked here?

The OP seems to talk about a gendered bias and a cultural bias on babble discussions.

I assume that I can find all "WASP gendered" example discussions I need here on babble, but are there any examples of a "female gendered", or a "different-cultured" discussion?

I'm not denying the existence of either gender or culture biased methods of discussion ... just saying I am not familiar with how they are structured and the differences between them and our current "WASP" biased discussions.

Another question/point ... to my mind there is a difference between a discussion and a conversation, adversarial debate and advising. This is a political discussion board, so the "conversations" will tend to lean toward discussing points of disagreement (a different board with a different terms of use might be able to force disagreements into a resolution process that becomes the "new truth", but let's recognize that babble is more about expressing opinions than forcing a specific form of left wing opinion on the group ... that's the job of a political party.) I hope we are not going to dismiss  too much of "babble the debate" in favour of 24/7 "babble the conversation".

 

remind remind's picture

wellll.....how quaint. a man playing the victim, and talking of this not be a safe thread for men, one would think that would lead to empathy about how women mostly feel at babble...yet a few of us continue to still fight through it. But I doubt it will.

Caissa

6079_Smith_W you have a pm.

6079_Smith_W

@ Caissa

Thanks for clarifying. For the benefit of the room I'll just say it's hard to figure out what people are refering to sometimes, so excuse the misunderstanding, and I got it wrong.

remind remind's picture

:rolleyes:

Caissa

Wink

KenS

A 101 type thread would obviously be a good thing in its own right.

But given that the hope is to change the climate of babble discussions, and the regulars have shown no interest, I don't have the heart for it.

KenS

Well, this discussion has been an education for me. All I have to do is figure out what I've been learning.

Some observations:

1] I've been surprised how little a lot of men understand that there is more to male domination than sexist language and oppression that emenates from Bay Street. If they understand that there is more, they have almost no idea what it is or where to look for it. Since so few men have said anything in these threads, its hard to tell how widespread that is here. But there's obviously a need for some 101 type eductaion... 101 that is not easy to do.

2.] There are a lot of males on this board who DO know how many faceted male domination is, and at least know in principle that it can be expected to be operative in these discussions. A lot of them are also regular particpants in the discussions that kick up the grief that is the reason for this thread and its predecessors. They have made no appearances at all in these discussions. Which is pretty remarkable.

On a practical level, if you want people to participate in a discussion, then their being reluctant to voice opinions they expect to be unpopular... thats a problem. At least Caissa is willing to say it. The rest of them- its just part of their remarkable and inconsistent non-existence.

When we started the last couple of threads, it was with a males discussion in mind. I thought that was a good idea. And males only might be a solution to the reluctance of men to post here. But now, frankly I don't think I could do without the intellectual and analytical contributions of the women who have posted here.

Besides, what is going to happen to men posting here? The worst that happens is there is an initial reaction of ganging up on them for what they say. We've got enough male posters to get a discussion going who are used to participating on the other end of that.

Not to mention how frequently they are prone to dishing out about someone else that they lack the political fortitude to do the right thing.

 

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Could those posters here who have chosen only to contribute drive-by one-liners to this discussion please resist the urge to do so? It's snipey, disruptive and derails the discussion.

I'd also like to point out that all of babble operates with the understanding that we live in a patriarchal society, which systematically privileges men and marginalizes women. That's a babble first principle. It's in the policy statement and you have all agreed to abide by it. If this discussion is to continue, that is the foundation it needs to take, otherwise it will be cut short. Okay?

ebodyknows ebodyknows's picture

Is the shrek layers thing the official points what things aught to be taken into account to make this place more inclusive?  Given we've gone through 2.25 threads worth of posts in about a week on this subject I'm not sure how much we can lament the lack of participation of some members.  Well we may have hoped the discussion went differently but there has been an awful lot of discussing going on...particularly for the culture section. Not even the sacred football threads get this much play.

 

ebodyknows ebodyknows's picture

Is the shrek layers thing the official summary points of what things aught to be taken into account to make this place more inclusive?  Given we've gone through 2.25 threads worth of posts in about a week on this subject I'm not sure how much we can lament the lack of participation of some members.  Well we may have hoped the discussion went differently but there has been an awful lot of discussing going on...particularly for the culture section. Not even the sacred football threads get this much play.

 

milo204

Smith W, i don't mean that people's minds can't be changed through debate, but that noone would argue or stand behind a principal (i.e that discussions carry a gender bias) unless they've done some homework and thought about it.  You wouldn't show up at a debate if you were only so-so on the the subject and hadn't really thought about it too much.  

I just fail to see and no one seems able to explain how that is a gendered form of discussion, since this is how pretty much everyone male or female acts in a discussion.  I think it might well be a case of just not listening to the other person, or taking into account the facts they bring up but how does this relate to gender if men do it to women, men do it to men, women do it to men and women do it to women?

it seems people here just keep stating that it IS a form of male domination but are not explaining why/how which is the critical part of coming to an understanding, and that's all i'm trying to get at.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

remind wrote:

an honest statement?

 

lol

IMV, I figure they are ignoring it.....no matter wherther they post or don't.

I am confused as always in these debates. Male domination happens because males dominate and are aggressive rather than assertive.  So how does one tell the difference between assertive and aggressive.   It can't just be about the gender of the poster.

Remind, I love most of your posts but if a man had posted that comment it would have been a perfect example of an in your face post designed to shut down discussion.  That is why I have a problem with seeing this issue only through a gender lens.  Old Goat is my Holy Grail of how one should post.  But I have clay feet so I am too often aggressive instead of assertive when my hot button issues are at play just as I believe happens to you Remind when your hot buttons are pushed, like this thread and its subject matter. 

6079_Smith_W

@ milo204

Actually it is not how everyone acts in a discussion - not every woman and not every man either. I think a few people have tried to explain it, including myself. most recently at #7.

I can think of a couple of threads off the top of my head which basically involve a couple of people trying beat the shit out of each other and, in my opinion, completely losing the ideas they are discussing in the process. Then there are others where people manage to stay focused on the ideas - not so much on proving themselves right or beating someone else in a contest. I don't want to give you examples here and now because frankly I think it is kind of rude to single people out when they are not part of the discussion.

Go take a look again, and if you are really stumped PM me and we can talk about it. I'll give you a clue though - look for examples of people belittling, calling each other names or insulting one anothers' intelligence. Also, take note of cases in which people question one anothers' political allegiances, or accuse someone of helping the enemy.

My personal perspective is different than some people here I know, but I agree completely that men seem far more prone to this kind of behaviour than women.

(edit)

and aside from the dynamic itself, what I really think makes it a gendered thing is many men's lack of understanding of oppression and disctimination. But again, this is my opinion, and i know there are others here who have a more formal, and some who have a looser interpretation of this.

 

milo204

yeah i would totally agree with you on that.  Typically belittling and other forms of personal attacks and the "you're on the enemy's side" would be ways which men dominate discussion.  That would be especially intimidating if it was in person.  

But i would say most canadians, of both genders, are pretty ignorant of oppression and discrimination.  In my personal experience (which might not be representative of most people's experience) i don't find it to be a gender thing, to me that's more a class thing or a generational thing.  Or do you mean lack of understanding of the oppression against women specifically?  Cause then i would agree.  

 

6079_Smith_W

@ milo204

Against women, yes. But most white guys simply don't have the experience of oppression - having to worry about personal safety, being looked at or judged by others, being disregarded - in the same way that other people live with every day. And even white guys who are poor, older, or differently abled don't experience oppression in the same way as a woman or non-white person in the same position. And when some guys actually get a little taste of it they carry on like they are christ on the cross.

There are other aspects to it as well - having one's ego at the forefront of any conversation, for example. Having to weigh in on absolutely everything, even repeating things that others have said, simply to make sure you are heard saying it, the assumption that you are absolutely right that I mentioned already, and most importantly, talking over top of others, not listening and not caring what they are saying.

Yes some women do it too, and some men do not do it all the time, but we all know this, and we shouldn't have to tack that little caveat onto every post so we don't hurt guys' feelings because really, that is not the most important injustice that needs to be addressed here. Not to make an assumption about your feelings, but if you feel that you are being personally unfairly judged you might want to put that aside for a bit and just look at who is saying what, and think about who is NOT speaking. The fact is that men do it far far more than women, and many women stay out of discussion altogether because of it.

milo204

I would agree with you on that too! You can really see how often that POV is used to set the agenda and tone of mainstream debate.  Issues like the conservative plan to scrap affirmative action seems like a good example of what you're talking about, when the most privileged sectors of society start complaining they're being discriminated against when in reality the society is built to empower THEM.

i guess as someone who often speaks out regardless of the consequences (lost jobs, ostracized, etc) what bugs me is that like you said so many women will stay out of discussion altogether,  rather than participate and hopefully build some momentum towards change.  especially on the net where there is no repercussions to what you say, why do so many women allow this harmful dynamic to continue by remaining silent?  

remind remind's picture

ahhhh, I see, it is women's fault, the poor men have nothing to do with perpetuating it. They really want us to speak out and call them on their sexism....

ebodyknows ebodyknows's picture

remind wrote:

ahhhh, I see, it is women's fault, the poor men have nothing to do with perpetuating it. They really want us to speak out and call them on their sexism....

 

ooooohhhhh, now i get it. It's all my fault. I see I shouldn't try to discuss this anymore.  Now that I accept that I am to blame I have the knowledge to just go ahead and totally rise above any sexism that is inherint in our culture. Sah-weeet.

remind remind's picture

do not do youtube, especially not those with the title "crazy".

In fact you have now rendered yourself for what you are....

ebodyknows ebodyknows's picture

I don't see why I shouldn't post the extract from the film c.r.a.z.y where the skinny boy get called a fif and pushed around and laughed at...yep I'm crazy for trying, thanks for kicking me while i'm down.

milo204

remind, actually yes i do want women to speak up and tell men when we're being sexist.  How else are things going to change if you don't call people on their shit?

Are you saying you DON'T think women should speak up about sexist behavior or male dominated forms of discussion?  

 in some places people are jailed/killed/exiled for speaking up against power and exploitation, yet they still do it because it's right.  What i'm wondering is why since none of those things are likely to happen here, why more women don't speak out against sexism?

An equivalent argument might be people who claim they are "not political".  Isn't silence a tacit approval of the status quo? 

 

milo204

also remind: 

"In fact you have now rendered yourself for what you are...."

isn't that actually an example of a typical male dominated form of discussion?  

remind remind's picture

milo204 wrote:
remind, actually yes i do want women to speak up and tell men when we're being sexist.  How else are things going to change if you don't call people on their shit?

Ya see milo, that you do not see we have been calling men on on their sexism, is a facit of sexism...in fact many of us have grown very, very tired of doing it repeatedly and men ignoring it, and just continuing on as if nothing has been stated, or attacking us for calling your/their actions sexist. or indeed playing the victim when it is their words/actions which are being called into question as sexism.

And there is a little  reality for women, which is; we are the victims and you are blaming us for being the victims, and basically stating it is our fault if men continue to be sexist fuckwads, not yours and other men.

Quote:
Are you saying you DON'T think women should speak up about sexist behavior or male dominated forms of discussion?  

never once even inferred that.

Quote:
 why more women don't speak out against sexism?

we do, men such as yourself, ignore us and pretend you are not the problem and that it is other men, who are. or tell us we are selves are the problem, or indeed straight out, or obliquely, refer to us women as having mental issues, when we do speak up.

wage zombie

milo204 wrote:

i guess as someone who often speaks out regardless of the consequences (lost jobs, ostracized, etc) what bugs me is that like you said so many women will stay out of discussion altogether,  rather than participate and hopefully build some momentum towards change.  especially on the net where there is no repercussions to what you say, why do so many women allow this harmful dynamic to continue by remaining silent?  

One reason I stay out of some of these discussions (I'm male though) is because the buy in is too high.  Sure, I notice some things that I could speak towards, but, if I know people AREN'T going to get what I'm saying, and I'm going to get three nasty replies, then why bother?  It's not that I'm intimidated about the nasty replies--it's that I recognise that they don't serve my well being.  They get me worked up, and then either I have to put a lot of effort into detaching, or I end up spending a lot of more of my (scarce) time posting back--and for what?  To show someone up?  Because that's mostly what I see going on anyway.  Nobody here needs me to identify the blowhards for them--it's already pretty obvious to most here.

Take your feelings out of this for a minute, and set aside what wonderful things babble COULD be.  For me it's a pragmatic thing.  Let's say you're hungry, and you don't have food, and you need to get some.  Depending on your situation that could mean going to a restaurant, a grocery store, a friend's house or a food bank.  For some people, they don't even have those options--but for  the sake of the example let's go with take out restaurant (I'm assuming that everyone here who has computer access has at times been to restaurants).  You might be hungry, and you might be hungry for a particular item, but that's not the only consideration.  A better restaurant may be further away and getting the food may take more time.  Or, if it is a meal time, some of those places may be really busy and getting the food might mean standing around for ten minutes in a busy loud room.  It's not necessarily that someone is intimidated by the loud, crowded room, or not confident enough to be in the loud, crowded room.  It might be just that, they are tired, or they are rushed, or they are just not looking to be in a loud crowded room.  That's it.

So bringing it back to babble, at times there are situations where I feel I could speak up to what's going on, or that I could offer some useful information.  And some of those times, I do.  And other times I don't.  And, part of my consideration is, who's involved in the conversation, what the conversation is about, how the conversation is going (ie. vibe or feeling of the conversation), and my mood at the time.  To the level that these things matter, it is not about feeling intimidated, or not being confident enough to speak up (because in many ways I am a very confident person, and I feel confident about my ability to communicate and be articulate).  It is about whether the experience will be worth it.  If the person I would be engaging is prone to being a jerk, well that's a reason not to engage.  Because, well, I don't really need the jerk energy.

"What??!?" you exclaim?  Isn't important for us to speak up to tell people when they're being jerks?  No, it's not, because in practice, it doesn't work that way.  It's not all the important, in the sense that people need to realize they're being jerks, because they almost never do.  Most of the people being aggressive jerks here at babble these days were being aggressive jerks on babble five years ago too.  So what's the point in calling them on it?  Especially, if engaging them is going to get me worked up in a negative way?  I don't need that.  If someone's got their head up their ass, then a) they're not going to hear me anyway and b) why is it my responsibility to set them straight?

So I could try explaining to explaining to ebodyknows here, that using the word "crazy" in a conversation like this, even if it's just the title of a video you're linking to, is bound to alienate people and detract from his point.  I could also try explaining to him that a skinny, sensitive white boy being called a sissy in high school (and believe me I got more than my share of it) doesn't really compare to rampant, institutionalized racism or sexism that affects people throughout their lives.  But why bother?  It's not like he's going to be able to hear it.  And, it's not like anybody else is paying much attention to his whining about it.  So yeah, it's not worth engaging him.

Babble is a battle arena, and I think that's what women (and some men) mean when they call this a male dominated space.  And, when people want to relax, drink their coffee/wine, socialize a bit, and catch up on the news and see what's going on, I think generally battle arena isn't the vibe that they're looking for.  For some people, that's exactly what they're looking for, and for some of us, we find some aspects of that engaging, and it's what we're looking for some of the time.  But for other people, it just turns them off, and they want nothing to do with it.  And so maybe they go over to BnR (which I get the sense is not at all a battle arena, although honestly I wouldn't know because I don't read there), or maybe they stay here, because they're already emotionally attached to the people at babble, and they just pick and choose their topics, and when they feel up to it, they speak out against things that go over the top.

The reasons that I seldom post at babble (although I do lurk) are that a) many babbles do not seem to be very good at listening (reading) to what other babblers are saying (writing) b) mostly people are here to hear (read) the sound of the own voice (text) and c) babble's not really a platform for making change in the world--it is mostly about shooting the shit and d) I just don't have the time available and just can't understand how most of you do it--but I suppose I get a lot of my socializiing in with face time.

Again, my personal reasons for not posting have nothing to do with a lack of confidence or feeling intimidated.  HTH

 

ETA:

milo204 wrote:

remind, actually yes i do want women to speak up and tell men when we're being sexist. How else are things going to change if you don't call people on their shit?

In my observation, most men will ignore it or argue or even laugh if they are told by women that they're being sexist.  This happens on babble.  As well I've observed that men will respond a lot more positively when another man suggests that they are being sexist.  And I mean, it makes sense, right?  Men who don't have much awareness of their own sexist tendencies tend to not quite get it when those sexist tendencies are pointed out by women.

It must be a source of endless frustration for women though to see supposed male allies shrug it off when several women are trying to explain something only to have those same male allies respond more favourably to a man telling them exactly the same thing.

KenS

Whats BnR?

Picking and choosing my topics that I engage around here worked- until it got to be too few to support a crtical mass of my interest. [Even though a very big part of the reason I've stayed here is because my isolation doesnt give me much face time where I can discuss topics in depth you dont get in meetings.]

6079_Smith_W

@ milo204 (and to everyone, really)

I'll just repeat a suggestion I have made a couple of times. People are going to express some honest feelings and that sometimes includes anger and language that might be considered abusive.

I'd advise not taking it personally, or more specifically try not to react from a place of outrage or anger. Don't respond in kind. Don't try to defend, and especially do not attack. All that does is shut everything down completely.

Even if you feel someone is saying something unfair or something which does not apply to you personally the best thing you can do is just try to get your defensiveness and your ego out of the way and listen. There might be something in there that is important, no matter what kind of package it is wrapped up in. If you are busy reacting, you might not hear it. And if it is not relevant, there is no reason why you SHOULD be hurt by it at all.

Just my opinion, of course.

 

 

remind remind's picture

OFFS

6079_Smith_W

remind wrote:

OFFS

You might want to read what I said again before you say that.

I don't agree with how you say everything (the "fuckwad" comment, for one), but then again when it comes to matters of how men's sexism affects women it's not really my place to tell you what to say at all.

The main thing I said was  that it is important that men hear your perspective calmly and without reacting because you do say some important things that we don't hear most places.

(gotta run for a bit. I am making supper)

remind remind's picture

dble

remind remind's picture

Can do without your token approval, say nothing of your speaking down to me, and passive aggressive posturing.

Quite frankly, I have been spoken down and condescended to by persons better able to mask their words than you were able to.

Feel like I just participated in a men's rights conversation.

 

Am so done with you mr smith.

 

The impact and result I feel from you is not worth the effort.

6079_Smith_W

@ remind

There are limits to what we can say here. Please don't mistake my trying to work within those constraints as some kind of subterfuge or veiled message, because it is not.

I don't know why you are participating here (nor do I care, since this is an open space) but just so you know, the fact that I think it is good for men to hear what you and other women have to say is completely separate from the fact that you and I disagree on a great many things. I think it goes beyond a simple difference of opinion, and for a little while now I have tried to not talk to you unless I have had a good reason to do so.

I'll say, in as friendly a way as I can, that I think the less you and I speak to one another the better.

I'm done. sorry to the room for this distraction, and for doing this in public.

 

remind remind's picture

Am hurt, am slayed, am distraught, especially given what you just said was totally redundant given my last post to you.

 

But gee..gotta thank you, as you just gave an excellent example of men here not listening to what women say, and of those who think women's words are NOT in fact important, even though you did try to pretend for awhile.

will continue to be broken hearted, for at least the rest of the evening....

ebodyknows ebodyknows's picture

wage zombie wrote:

 I could also try explaining to him that a skinny, sensitive white boy being called a sissy in high school (and believe me I got more than my share of it) doesn't really compare to rampant, institutionalized racism or sexism that affects people throughout their lives.

That was a great post.  With well thought out and personalized idea.  I couldn't agree more with the concept of wanting to avoid a loud busy restaurant. Apologies if it came across as though the above is the point I'm trying to make.  The point I was trying to make is that rampant institutionalized sexism affects the lives of people of both sexes who grow up and live around it.  Belonging to the privileged gender doesn't necessarily provide you with the means or understanding to subvert the gender roles which extend back generations beyond whatever happened in their high school days.  I think it's nice that a bunch of well meaning guys(not myself I haven't really been participating in this discussion) are trying to figure out what they can, if they make some blunders along the way I just don't see how it is going to help matters to give them a hard time about it....I probably shouldn't have made the statement in such an arsehole-ish way but maybe a small part of me convinced myself imitation might also come across as a high form of flattery.

As for c.r.a.z.y, it's a Canadian film that won 6 different best film awards at various festivals just a couple of years ago...Is it really my responsibility to explain everything about why it's relevant?  I'm sorry, I though it'd be common knowledge in the culture section of a Canadian focused forum, I guess there are more American patriots here than I thought.

 

milo204

Remind, in my experience there are plenty of men who will not accuse you of being mentally ill, ignore you or talk down to you if you try and talk to them about sexism.  Maybe it's your approach?  

I'm here because i do care about it, and want a better understanding of the dynamics of sexism so that i don't participate in perpetuating it.   You give me the impression that sexism is totally inevitable, there's no point in speaking out cause everyone is just going to ignore it, but how else is anything going to change?  No, it's not ideal or just, but it seems the only possible way forward since relying on men to just figure it out on their own obviously hasn't worked.

 

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