Michael Jackson
A free-wheeling Michael Jackson thread, since I wanted to post this rabble article and figured the thread would go all over the place as news comes in about the results of the autopsy and all that.
Four days later, you can still find a documentary or biography of Jackson somewhere on television. From the moment news broke of his death, radio stations and music networks were broadcasting non-stop musical tributes (if you haven’t seen at least a clip of an MJ video lately, you are somewhere very far off the grid). I can’t even count how many times I’ve heard “Thriller,” “Billie Jean” and “Say Say Say” (seriously) on the radio since Thursday. Maybe none of this is remarkable. But what has happened on the Internet is.
The entire web experienced a slow-down between 6 and 11 p.m. Thursday night. Websites related to Jackson buckled under the traffic. Search engines were going bonkers. Most fascinating to me was how quickly the so-called twitterverse set ablaze. Two minutes after the news broke, I initiated a search on tweetdeck for “Michael Jackson” – the ensuing column refreshed 100 new results every minute for hours. As intrigued as I was by the tweaction, it was impossible to keep up. Even now, a Google blog search for Michael Jackson yields nearly 70,000 results.
The Internet has become such the predominant source and outlet for info, it was more than half an hour after hearing about Jackson before it even occurred to me to check what was happening on television. As I sailed up and down the satellite dish dial, “breaking news” blips were interrupting most programming.
This is interesting. I found out about his death on Facebook, around 10 p.m. that night. I was out for supper with a friend for several hours beforehand and they were playing Michael Jackson songs in an endless loop, which made me wonder, but it didn't occur to me that something happened to him.
Also - Michael Jackson is one of those icons that spans several generations. I have friends who are anywhere from 15-20 years older than me on Facebook, and 10-15 years younger than me as well. And people of all ages were posting Michael Jackson videos. A friend who is a decade and a half older than me was posting early Jackson 5 stuff. Friends my age were posting Thriller/Bad era stuff. Another friend who is around 20ish was posting Black Or White and more recent stuff of his.
It was really interesting, and kind of strange, to be doing our remembering in such a communitarian sort of way, online.
And now, the latest Hollywood gossip update: Michael Jackson's father, Joe Jackson, is taking charge of all of Michael Jackson's affairs, and is claiming "full authority" over Jackson's children.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j8Oo5xv2GXN2WKfRqZ1-NS...
Gee, that's just swell - nothing will help those kids like having Michael Jackson's (allegedly) abusive father for a parent!
He was a talented guy. But it's kind of difficult for me mourn a person whose been a pop culture joke for so many years.
Now if peter gabriel had died...
Of course he is, they will be getting whatever Michael has left, and if the news is correct apparently his death paid off his estate debt and then some.
I'm wondering about the rights of the biological mother here, Debbie (forget her last name). She said the children were a product of her egg and a donor's sperm (not Michael Jackson's - guess he didn't want his kids to be mixed - but that is my opinion). The weird thing is, what about the third kid? Again a product of a surrogate mother and donor sperm.The surrogate mother has never been named publicly.
I mean, the thought of Michael Jackson's parents taking custody is scary to me. Bad enough you had Michael Jackson as the father - the face masks the kids wore, the strange way they were hidden...they were never given a chance to be normal.
I've been reading that Debbie will not stand a chance of winning custody. How is that and why is that? Should these kids still walk around with their faces covered in masks, living the life of some twisted fairy tale? The whole thing seems creepy to me on so many levels.
Guess we'll never know why MJ did not use his own sperm with the surrogate mother. I think MJ internalized racism to such an extent that he did not want half black kids. That is a really messed up way of thinking. I can only imagine how it will be living with the whacked out grandfather.
You man Prince Michael II? :rolleyes:
I would like to see the autopsy report in iits full detail, as I remember well the allegations of nutering to keep his voice.
I am glad Madonna is still alive. She is so much better.
My daughter called me about something else, and mentioned Jackson's death at the outset of the phone call, probably a half hour or so after the news became general.
I can't understand the outpouring of public sentiment. Then again, few can understand why I was in a funk for a week after Carl Sagan died, and why thinking about his passing can put that lump in my throat.
I guess the good thing is that people are being respectfull this many days in. Puts a nice face on the general public, as many bad things and many less than respectfull things could be said about Micheal Jackson.
We're the same age, MJ and I (and also the annoying pitch man Billy Mays who died yesterday) and I remember him as a child singing sensation hitting the scene at the same time as Donny Osmond. Rock is dead.... Anyway, we all hated Donny Osmand, and while the Jackson 5 wasn't our usual cup of tea, the tunes were catchy, and unlike Osmond, you knew Micheal Jackson was a young singing sensation because he had something besides marketing, called talent.
Donny Osmond was on the radio because Pat Boone was too old and exposed for them to use to keep black artists off white radio anymore.
I am glad Madonna is still alive. She is so much better.
Maddona makes me want to go back in time and kill the guy who sold herion to Janis Joplin.
really MJ was a real brotha and I dont even think he molested those kids notice how it was all just white kids goin after the brotha with the deepest poccets. The fact that he had been the butt of jokes for so long didnt help. RIP u know
and fucc madonna she cant sing
The Queen of Pop is a fierce woman and she is an inspiration.
She is still standing law, kicking asses, looking great, selling albums, unlike MJ.
Madonna is steel, compared to the sad ending of MJ.
I have always believed she was offed.
Michael Jackson's success owes a lot to Weird Al Yankovic's making his songs somewhat interesting.
The Queen of Pop is a fierce woman and she is an inspiration.
She is still standing law, kicking asses, looking great, selling albums, unlike MJ.
Madonna is steel, compared to the sad ending of MJ.
MJ sold wayy more albums n his shit on top of the charts since his death. It aint a good to talk about a dead man like that RIP
edit - wtf who the fucc is weird al w.e why yall tryna take away from MJ?
I dunno. I have a friend who overdosed on heroin, and came within a whisker of dying. I think if you take that drug long enough, sooner or later you get a batch that's less dilluted than you think, and suddenly you are asleep and not bothering to breath.
I was talking to another daughter about the merits, or lack of them, of today's generation of rock/pop artists. And I was struggling to put my finger on something, and finally came to realize that the difference between the music of the 50's, 60's and early 70's is that artists were constantly experimenting. There seems to be a lack of that today.
Micheal Jackson, if I can say something nice, was an experimentor in that tradition.
Back in the spring of '84, "Thriller" was all over the airwaves, or at least on the radio that the little construction crew I worked on listened to. During one coffee break (with the radio on) I was making my usual dismissive comments about commercial radio (radio on), and this new Michael Jackson sound in particular, when a co-worker said, "Say what you want about him, but the guy's got talent."
Wellsir, he had me there, but I turned up LKJ's "Bass Culture" a little louder during the half-hour drive back to town after work that night.
Thriller was the first video I saw. The local roller-rink had just installed MTV (back when it was a new thing) on a big screen over the dance floor and played MTV videos. I remember the crowd when Thriller came on - full version (13 minutes). It was a huge deal.
I played the YouTube video of Thriller for my son the other night. He hadn't seen it yet. He loved it.
Interesting story in The Guardian with excerpts from an interview with the woman who was the nanny of MJ's children:
(...) She said the singer's lavish spending was out of control, and that he led an increasingly nomadic lifestyle, moving from country to country and hotel to hotel.
She was dismissed for a final time last December but still visited the children. When she saw them in April she claims Jackson was so broke she had to buy "happy birthday" balloons for Paris on her own credit card.
On an earlier occasion the singer had sent her to Florence to buy antiques for $1m. "We didn't even have a home to live in. So we had to put the antiques in storage," she said.
Rwaramba, who flew from London to Los Angeles yesterday in the hope of being reunited with the children, could potentially find herself at the centre of a billion-pound custody battle. There are conlficting reports as to whether the mother of the eldest two, former nurse Debbie Rowe, is seeking custody. The Jackson family are reported to be offering Rowe visitation rights.
"I took these babies in my arms on the first day of each of their lives. They are MY babies," Rwaramba told Barak.
She claims she was sacked by Jackson because she was getting too close to the children but had fully expected to be reinstated soon.
She said he would regularly fire her then beg her to return as he was unable to look after the children or himself.
She told Barak: "These poor babies ... I was getting phone calls that they were being neglected. Nobody was cleaning the rooms because Michael didn't pay the housekeeper.
"I was getting calls telling me Michael was in such a bad shape. He wasn't clean. He hadn't shaved. He wasn't eating well. I used to do all this for him and they were trying to get me to go back."(...)
There may be the indication of a new pattern here: rich or relentlessy combative men getting custody - or essentially buying children from surrogate mothers as MJ did - and then not knowing or bothering to care for them.
Michael Jackson's success owes a lot to Weird Al Yankovic's making his songs somewhat interesting.
:D
Yeah, that bugs me too. Wasn't Jackson married to at least one of the mothers of his children? Why the hell shouldn't the mothers have custody of the kids instead of that sick fucker who is probably the reason Jackson was so screwed up?
Never saw Jackson when he was with the Five. My first exposure was the Off The Wall Album. Pretty much wore out that 8 track from repeated play, much to the chagrin of my AC/DC, Foreigner and Van Halen leaning chums. By the time Thriller came out Def Leppard, Judas Priest, Motorhead and Iron Maiden were among the standard fare in my collection, leaving little ear for much of anything else.
In an astonishing interview Debbie - mother of Prince, 12, and Paris, 11 - said she was artificially inseminated by an anonymous donor.
And she told how, despite Jackson's death, she does not WANT custody of the children and NEVER expects to see them again.
from here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/28/debbie-rowe-michael-is-no_n_222027.html
Well, good enough. At least she won't be one of the people putting the kids through custody fight hell. But the kids must be kind of sad to hear in the news that their mother doesn't want them. Maybe they're not watching the news, though.
really MJ was a real brotha and I dont even think he molested those kids notice how it was all just white kids goin after the brotha with the deepest poccets. The fact that he had been the butt of jokes for so long didnt help. RIP u know
and fucc madonna she cant sing
R_P, you cannot possibly be saying that these small little boys went after Jackson because he was black. For christ sake, MJ admitted he liked to sleep with little boys. This is nothing new.
And I do not believe that you aren't supposed to speak ill of the dead. But you also believe OJ was innocent - which I definitely don't, and it has jack shit to do with his skin colour.
Not everyone is a racist because they acknowledge the past behaviour of a black man., We do it to all celebrities, all the time.
Polly_B - the first source to print the article referred to above was News of the World so I'm not so sure it has mucg validity as I read that she wanted custody of her kids and said, in fact, that she should have custody.
I would like to see the autopsy report in iits full detail, as I remember well the allegations of nutering to keep his voice.
I don't think I'd heard of this before. But it might provide an explanation as to why he couldn't use his own sperm to father the children.
The poor bastard led such a tortured life. Musically he was a genius, and socially a cripple. Even if the allegations against him are true (and given the giant target he was, I think it's impossible for anyone but those involved to know for sure), it's hard not to feel sorry for the man.
edited to say
For the record, I think that at least some of the allegations must be true. Too much smoke for there to be no fire. And that said, I still feel sorry for the poor bastard.
I just cannot get over how much this story took over the airwaves on TV. It makes one thankful for the internet.
It was as if every other pressing domestic and international issue ceased to exist, while every channel showed live footage of MJ's body being transported by helicopter across LA.
I am with Stargazer. He wasn't convincted of anything, but there was a lot of creepy and questionable behaviour. And RP: I don't think it had to do with his race or his alleged victims' race. It had more to do with his messed up upbrining which lacked a true childhood, so he spent his adulthood searching for childhood and ended up doing inappropriate things.
Al-Q: that made me watch "Just Eat It" on youtube!
Debbie Rowe seeks custody:
http://www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_12717890
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1195641/Battle-Jacksons-chi...
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/06/29/MNHM18FV9F.D...
These are all dated today....
Lot's of factors tie into overdoses, not just more pure.
In Janis's case, there is much more to the story, that just does not make sense, at least to me! ;)
Micheal Jackson, if I can say something nice, was an experimentor in that tradition.
Excellent point regarding experimenting.
In respect to MJ, the last time I really listened to anything of his was "I'll Be There", favorite waltz tune at school dances, and then we discovered, Led Zep, Procol Harem, Moody Blues, Jethro Tull, and the "Canadian" bands.
I went to HMV on Saturday and all they were playing was MJ. I walked out with two Dianna Krall CDs and a U2 video.
I'm working hard to avoid the hype.
Good Luck, Cassia.
I remember when Elvis died. I was working as a summer student in a copper tube factory, on nights. This was my first exposure to this kind of overblown media hype.
By those standards, we have a ways to go yet.
Anyone starting a pool on the date of the first claim of someone seeing Micheal Jackson at a convenience store?
I'm betting on him being spotted on an alien spaceship, during an abduction. He'll be an observer during the ubiquitous anal probing.
If we're about to start with the MJ jokes, I received this from a friend this morning: Due to the fact that Michael Jackson was 99% plastic, he will be melted down into LEGO's , so kids can play with him for a change.
Groan.
I suspect there's 100's more out there.
And check out the link from The Onion I posted in the obituary thread.
I would like to see the autopsy report in iits full detail, as I remember well the allegations of nutering to keep his voice.
I don't think I'd heard of this before. But it might provide an explanation as to why he couldn't use his own sperm to father the children.
The poor bastard led such a tortured life. Musically he was a genius, and socially a cripple. Even if the allegations against him are true (and given the giant target he was, I think it's impossible for anyone but those involved to know for sure), it's hard not to feel sorry for the man.
edited to say
For the record, I think that at least some of the allegations must be true. Too much smoke for there to be no fire. And that said, I still feel sorry for the poor bastard.
Again, it's difficult. It would be easier for me to feel a sense of loss if I could see him as someone who actually cared about the world, or if he were actually poor in the monetary sense.
Add to the mix the fact that charges of pedophilia have dogged the man since I was in about grade 8, (I'm 28 now), and I just can't sympathize.
Weird Al Yankovic-Fat
Weird Al Yankovic-Eat It
Michael Jackson - Thriller
I don't like MJ. Didn't like him way back when, when he was popular and got way too much airtime. Found his voice irritating.
I hate the fact that he gets a pass on pedophlia because he is wierd and sick and rich and famous.
remind wrote:
I would like to see the autopsy report in iits full detail, as I remember well the allegations of nutering to keep his voice.
This might answer it:
His family suggested in court papers on Monday that he had died intestate.
Oh, wait . . . .
I can't find a reputable source for Debbie Rowe claiming Jackson wasn't the father. Infact, I recall hearing earlier on the news her lawyer stating she didn't say that. Most of the sources aren't really reputable sites. Huffington Post links to some site and it's not even there.
As for the allegations against him, many say he was a pedophile. I'm not sure I would go that far based on the two legal incidents. In both those cases, the parents really brought into question whether the charges were accurate or not. The father in the first case was caught on tape that made the case sound like extortion. The second parent had a sordid history. And the first thing she did was contact the lawyer from the first case before even going to police. All of this brought more than a reasonable doubt to any charge.
That said, I think he was very odd and that included his behaviour with children. But pedophile? No.
Methinks you meant sordid history.
Methinks you meant sordid history.
Thanks for catching that LOL.
I think MJ was either out of touch with reality, or perhaps had a distorted view of reality - there's a famous interview being shown over and over again on all the networks, with Barbara Walters where MJ says, yes, he sleeps with visiting children in his bed as if it is the most normal thing in the world, and he asks Walters if she does the same - and she answers very strongly "no" and is quite shocked at the idea, and indeed points out to him how inapprpriate it is to do so, and he appears surprised at this.
ETA: my guess is that MJ did not have suitable role models while growing up, nor any kind of parental guidance - just pressure to perform, perform, and perform, for:
I think MJ was either out of touch with reality, or perhaps had a distorted view of reality - there's a famous interview being shown over and over again on all the networks, with Barbara Walters where MJ says, yes, he sleeps with visiting children in his bed as if it is the most normal thing in the world, and he asks Walters if she does the same - and she answers very strongly "no" and is quite shocked at the idea, and indeed points out to him how inapprpriate it is to do so, and he appears surprised at this.
ETA: my guess is that MJ did not have suitable role models while growing up, nor any kind of parental guidance - just pressure to perform, perform, and perform, for:
Agreed. The stories of his father's abuse, phyiscal and emotional, are quite sad.
I'm not really surprised he died young. he went through so much stress since literally from age 5-50. this huge comeback may have just pushed him over the edge.
Also, i read that about 12 people committed suicide over the news of his death. saddening.
There's an internet hoax going around that the boy who made allegations against Jackson in 1993 has confessed to making them up.
http://blog.vpjayant.com/?p=21
I hate the fact that he gets a pass on pedophlia because he is wierd and sick and rich and famous.
I'm not sure he got a free pass on that.
Personally, I don't quite know what to make of those allegations. I think the tale of Fatty Arbuckle should give everyone a caution regarding this kind of stuff.
Or, if Micheal Jackson was indeed some kind of pedophile, then it certainly casts some parents in the role of pimping out their own child, in either a premeditated or postmeditated way. I think, particularly in the first case that was settled out of court, that makes me want to vomit.
I tend to think, pedophile or not, Micheal Jackson was also the product of a phenomena for which I borrow the term "Ceasar Madness." Normally, we exchange ideas and notions with friends and aquaintences (or message boards) and we take in how they are recieved, either rebuked, complimented, etc. It's what keeps us sane. Micheal Jackson, and a good many others, have probably been surrounded by people who tell him every idea that he has is a good one, that he can do no wrong. (everyone around him just wanting to keep the money fountain flowing, or in the case of Roman Emporers, one's head connected to one's neck)
Eventually, that just drives a person crazy.
Reading this thread reminds me of how much I miss Woody Guthrie, Elvis Presley, Buddy Holly, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, Brian Jones, John Lennon, George Harrison, Jerry Garcia, Otis Redding, Ray Charles, Johnny Cash, John Denver, Bo Diddley, Isaac Hayes, Tim Hardin, Patsy Cline, Roy Orbison, Bob Marley, Jeff Healey, and many, many other music giants.
It's a shame that in the end MJ was probably more famous for being famous than he was for his music. My teenagers know who he is and that's about it - they liked Thriller when they were younger because of the plot much more than the music and dancing.
And his legacy, right now at least, is a bunch of very bad jokes involving young boys.
On the subject of MJ's alledged pedophelia his brother said he was "probably" guilty but decided to support him in court because MJ wouldn't last in prison.
http://www.hiphopmusic.com/inane/archives/2006/03/jermaine_jackso.htm
and his brother in law said he was positive he was guilty
http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/brother.in.law%20says%20jackson.s%20guilty
Take those statements for what they're worth.
Watched a report last evening on MJ's Will and apparently it states Diana Ross, is second in line for the custody of the children, if their mothers do not want it.
You can't "will" custody of your children.
You can name a guardian. That's a fairly standard clause in any will where there are minor children involved.
Yep abnormal you are correct.
True, but I was under the impression that it isn't binding.
Me too Michelle. I doubt it is binding.
After all, wills are about distributing property. Kids aren't property.
IANAL, but this looks as though naming a guardian is binding. I sure as hell hope it's binding; we went through a lot of thought on the issue when we wrote our wills.
And it's not about distributing property; they can't be sold. It's about making sure that custody goes to the person you think is the best suited to raise your children in your absence.
Dianna Ross? This is apparently the woman MJ so wanted to look like. I have no idea how close she is/was to MJ's kids, or even what kind of person she is, but I have a very hard time believing that you can "will" your kids to whomever you please.
Wills are Last Will and Testaments, in actual fact, so you are giving a Testament to whom you want to have guardianship over your child, as opposed to giving them to them like an object. And courts consider this strongly, if the remaining biological parent does not want, or is not available for said minor child.
As remind says, it's about saying who you want to have guardianship as opposed to awarding them as chattel. And, as he says, courts consider this strongly - you occassionally see court battles over this but they're rare.
And it's the only way I'm aware of to ensure that guardianship goes where you want it.
Like Stephen Gordon we put a lot of thought into who that should be and confirmed that they'd be willing to assume those duties before we had our wills drafted.
Many people are clamoring to get a look at Michael Jackson's last will and testament. Michael Jacksons' last will could shine a light on what he intended to happen to his property and fortune once he had passed, and what he had provided for his heirs, and it has been published on the Smoking Gun website. He leaves his estate in trust, and his children in the care of his mother, Katherine, and in case she is unable to care for them, to Diana Ross. At one time, Jackson was considered to be Ross' protégé. However, Michael Jackson's last will doesn't cover what to do with all the money lenders he owes.
[Edited by moderator to delete link]
Dante_F, please don't link to commercial money lending sites.
I think when the pyroclastic blast dust settles, the money lenders will end up, if not sated (are they ever?) at least not out of pocket. Apparently, Jackson has a dozen or so unreleased new songs, which if handled right could put the estate back into the black. And, I think Jackson owned a lot of copyrights, (unless they've been sold off in recent years) so they can generate income or be sold off.
Of course, many may feel that following this story may be a little beneath our dignity here. I'm inclined to agree, a bit. However, watching this in the context of a "meta story", where we watch how this story is being covered by various "news" outlets gives one a fairly good measure of each outlets level of depravity.
Yesterday, CNBC did a walking tour of the Neverland mansion, hosted by some guy who either had too many Red Bulls or is just naturally an hyperactive outhouse spellunker.
And the unabashedly trashy tabloid show "TMZ" seems to be head and shoulders, respect wise, above the "respectable" media.
The interesting bit in the news yesterday was the pre-emptive damage control that Jackson's concert promoter "AEG" did by releasing private video of Jackson's rehearsals. Obviously, they saw more value in using that footage to protect their asses than they saw in saving it for later, profitable release.
And, the memorial service is being moved to their venue.
Admission, $25.00.
There's no bottom to this barrel, folks.
Jay Smooth from illdoctrine, and Oliver Wang are interviewed by Jesse Thorn about Michael Jackson's career and influence. It's about 45 minutes long, fyi.
Audio link here.
Newsy tidbit today. That drug that is only supposed to be used in Hospitals has been found where Jackson died.
This is one tiny step away from becoming a murder investigation.
Michael Jackson dies of Amurrika at 50
http://www.blackagendareport.com/?q=blog/185
"Well, Amurrika has finished chewing up the living body of Michael Jackson. It began devouring him inwardly a long time ago..
Now we'll be treated to the spectacle of the Beast chewing on the bones of this fallen child-man."
Apparently Westboro Baptist Church will be protesting Michael Jackson's funeral. I don't know how they plan to be noticed in the middle of the rest of that circus.
July 4, 2009
Op-Ed Columnist
Behind the Facade
By BOB HERBERT
Meeting Michael Jackson in the mid-1980s was one of the creepier experiences of my life.
(...)
Behind the Jackson facade was the horror of child abuse. Court records and reams of well-documented media accounts contain a stream of serious allegations of child sex abuse and other inappropriate behavior with very young boys. Jackson, a multimillionaire megastar, was excused as an eccentric. Small children were delivered into his company, to spend the night in his bed, often by their parents.
One case of alleged pedophilia against Jackson, the details of which would make your hair stand on end, was settled for a reported $25 million. He beat another case in court.
The Michael-mania that has erupted since Jackson's death - not just an appreciation of his music, but a giddy celebration of his life - is yet another spasm of the culture opting for fantasy over reality. We don't want to look under the rock that was Jackson's real life.
As with so many other things, we don't want to know.
The Comments section is quite enlightening about the extent to which denial is in full force....
Interesting insight in th article martin, and not about Jackson either.
Yeah, the Jacko death is entirely whacko. At once, you feel really bad for a man who was never given the chance to grow up - whose childhood was taken from him by a murderous music industry and a horrifically selfish father. He basically became the product of someone who simply ought not to have been pushed into the limelight so heavily.
At the same time, he did things that can rightly be described as monstrous. It is one of those cases where it is hard to seperate the art from the artist.
It seems to me that the problem lies more, for some people, in having difficulty seeing the abuser for the megastar, as if anyone this revered could do no wrong. A blindered vision which most child abusers exploit, be it as fathers, role models, community pillars, clergymen, etc. And when the truth eventually comes out, having millions to spend on lawyers, PR hacks and settlements helps maintain inaccountability.
At the same time, he did things that can rightly be described as monstrous. It is one of those cases where it is hard to seperate the art from the artist.
Can we rightly say Jackson did monsterous things? I mean, what actual evidence to we have? The allegations that have made it to criminal and civil court seem to describe parents, in the criminal case, that were found to be extortionists, if my memory serves. And, in the civil case that made the press, the father seemed more interested in getting himself a movie deal than he was the welfare of his son.
Sure, Jackson's pedophelia was a running joke on all the late night talk shows. Just like the "Uni-dufus" was a running joke. And, there's no doubt that Jackson was very odd. Very, very odd. But, I remember a kind of odd person (not as odd as Jackson, but... odd) called Guy Paul Morin.
And, as I mentioned way above, the life of Rosco "Fatty" Arbuckle proves instructive in that a person everyone believes to be guilty of a heinous crime can in fact be innocent. In Arbuckles example, the lie proved so powerfull that even after evidence surfaced that fully exhonerated him, he could never attach his name to any Hollywood project, or appear on camera ever after.
I keep an eye on pop culture, but I hardly follow it in detail. Maybe there's something I'd call evidence, or a court would call evidence, that proves Jackson was a pedophile, and I haven't heard about it.
I think this is why some feel Jackson is being given a "free pass". We actually just don't know. And to that end, the media has been of little use, and in fact may have served to further cloud the issue with cheque book journalism that casts doubt on those making accusations, and the move ( that I noticed at least one pious editor neglected to mention ) towards "info-tainment" during those Regan years, which obscured the line between the media's attempt to tell us what's going on, and their attempt to sell add time by relating salacious fairy tales dressed up as news.
Yeah, my gut feeling is that Jackson was a pedophile. But I bet if I had grown up in Salem in the late 1600's, my gut would have told me the odd woman down the lane that I had a cross word with was responsible for the mysterious death of my milk cow.
Jackson openly admitted to sleeping in beds with young male adolescents (and pre-adolescents). Everything about his character traits in regards to children screams pedophile:
- setting up a giant child park (Netherland Ranch)
- choosing to spend the majority of time with small boys and sleeping with them
- all the pornography found at his house (male and female porn)
- grooming tactics of full blown pedophiles were done by Jackson.
All of these points paint t groomer. A pedophile. If this were anyone else but Jackson red flags would be raised.
Many people give him a pass because they say "well, he was never given a chance at being an adult" so therefore it seems normal he would sleep with boys (only boys - no girls). Does this make sense to anyone?
I've read some of the transcripts up at smoking gun. There were a ton of allegations against Jackson, not just the ones which received the most attention. What saddens me is that most people say that the quantity and quality of these allegations are the fault of the parents and others who have spoken out about his attraction to boys. These people are vilified, made to be seen as money hungry when, let's face it, civil court is often the only avenue in which victims can be compensated for the suffering that have endured. I have always thought that parents "pimped" out their kids to jackson, but this does not mean Jackson was not a pedophile.
I've heard people excuse his pedo ways by trotting out the excuse that "he was never allowed to be a child". Well word up, many people in the entertainment industry have experienced the same thing, and they aren't molesting kids.
MJ is a weird man, who very very possibly (and at the very least he payed a few boys to go away) was a pedophile and a massive cunsumer of "legal" drugs.
Apparently MJ is hiding out with Elvis, Amelia Earhart and Judge Crater.
CONSPIRACY theories about Michael Jackson's death went into overdrive last night after it was revealed his O2 concert promoters took out a GBP12million policy against the gigs falling through.
But the hefty contract with Lloyds of London only covered them in the case of a drug overdose, not if he died from natural causes.
...
"People can't understand why if you were taking out an insurance policy you would focus solely on a drug overdose, unless you knew something that others didn't." They added: "It just doesn't seem right.
People have the right to ask questions." But AEG's chief executive Randy Phillips said the insurance policy would still fall short of the money spent on Jackson's advance, production of the shows, covering some of his debts and paying his staff and rent, which totals between GBP15m and GBP25m.
In another twist, several music industry figures are also fanning the flames of suspicion over the identity of the "Michael Jackson" who appeared in London to promote the sell-out tour that was never to be.
There have been allegations made in internet 2Arena claimed: "I'd met Jacko before and his walk, the sound of his voice and his demeanour were all wrong.
"He only appeared in public for a matter of seconds...... There are even theories flying around that the megastar, who will be buried in a GBP15,300, 14carat gold-plated coffi n, may have faked his own death in order to escape the pressures of the 50-gig marathon and is now in hiding in the Middle East.
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/home/
Jackson openly admitted to sleeping in beds with young male adolescents (and pre-adolescents).
And, there's historians today who look at the sleeping arrangements of lawyers following circuit courts in the mid 1800's, not to mention language usage, to formulate the hypothesis that Abraham Lincoln was gay.
I agree with you, Stargazer. Jackson showed an aircraft carrier profile on my internal pedophile radar, for the very reasons you point out. In fact, I'd add one: How come when all the "jokes" about Jackson started on main stream T.V., Jackson, or the people around Jackson who stood a lot to lose by this kind of "branding" of their meal ticket, didn't protect that brand through slander and libel suits? Maybe it was because they thought it would all go away. But, maybe they thought such a suit would open too many doors of inquiry that Jackson would rather have left shut.
I have always thought that parents "pimped" out their kids to jackson, but this does not mean Jackson was not a pedophile.
Again, I agree with you in that if Jackson was a pedophile, we certainly have to believe some parents pimped out their kids. And if I believe people can be that debased, I can't really know anything. I certainly have to entertain the notion that Jackson was everything the allegations made him out to be. And I certainly have to believe that people around him are fully capable of inventing all of the allegations from whole cloth.
We have a situation where people have shown themselves capable of anything.
CBC Newsworld is broadcasting the MJ funeral live tomorrow. I guess there's a shortage of real news in the world.
John Stewart on the Daily Show showed a clip of some inane Micheal Jackson coverage on CNN, complete with CNN's one sentence ticker on the bottom of the screen detailing all the real news stories CNN wasn't covering at the time.
And now Michael Jackson's ghost has made an appearance
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1197780/Ghost-Michael-...
Video of Michael Jackson under questioning from a lawyer (the video seems to be edited):
http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/391017/Michael-Jacksons-video-nasty.html
"Jesus said to love the children and be like the children-to be youthful and innocent, and be pure and honourable," says Jackson reading from a statement he has written.
"He always surrounded himself with children. That's how I was raised-to believe, and to be like that, and to imitate that."
Another view:
Michael Jackson: Bad! And very dangerous
The Independent, July 4, 2009
This week, the news has been dominated by Michael Jackson. But, in this highly provocative article, the author and former music industry executive John Niven questions the adulation of the 'King of Pop', given the allegations of child abuse that emerged in recent years. (...)
http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2007/martin-bashir-michael-jackson-p1...
Interview (small part of it) with Bashir (Martin).
Funny how the entire world seems to be very willing to disregard everything that might look bad on MJ. As if he was some kind of saint that should be excused for his "love" of young boys.
I justed watched this: the man is delusional. Blanket's mother isn't white, according to MJ. Nope, she was black, just like he used to be. How is that possible? He's only had two surgeries, according to MJ. He said his drastic change in appearance is due to "growing up". Thsi man is obviously a consummate liar.
This had me roaring when I saw it but the final line summarizes the whole thing perfectly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV6rZfzpIqo
The most heart-wrenching (and most real) part of yesterday's memorial was when Michael's daughter spoke.
In a wonderful article by Rebecca Walker, she writes about her own experience of meeting Michael Jackson when she was 14 years old.
http://www.theroot.com/views/untouchable-michael-jackson
She writes:
"Why Michael approached me in a room full of superstars after the show I will never know. Perhaps because I was the youngest in the room, and at 14 didn't have a big name, a big career or a powerful company. I was a kid, easy, with few expectations. I was not old enough to demand, even silently, that he live up to anything. Perhaps he felt that with me he could be, in a sense, free.
I remember his body language. He moved slowly, like a very cool cat, hesitant, but smooth. And then, in the softest of voices, he asked how I was able to do the impromptu bit of comical business. He could never do something like that on the spot, he said. He'd be too nervous. I remember laughing and chiding him. You'd be great, Michael! I said. He shook his head and out crept a smile so open and vulnerable that I wanted to hug him, and probably would have, if he weren't Michael Jackson.
But he was, and I had no way to reach across the boundary of celebrity that put us on opposite sides of an invisible fence. Michael was, as he described himself in a song years later, untouchable. I believe that is what killed him. A human being can only live so long without the touch of another and can only breathe manufactured air for so many minutes."
It's a truly beautiful article. It sheds light not only on her experience with Michael Jackson himself, but also on how his music was just sort of there, for so many years, playing in the background of first kisses, high-school dances, and car rides:
"As a young girl, I kissed a boy furtively as Michael's song, "Rock with You," played on my cassette player. My first real boyfriend stood for hours in front of a full-length mirror in my bedroom practicing his Michael Jackson dance moves. In quieter moments, we lay on my bed listening to "She's Out of My Life" on the record player, both of us close to tears and full of reverence for Michael's heartfelt emotion."
Later, when I was old enough to go out dancing with my friends, we'd all scream when we heard the rumblings of his sultry dance groove, "Don't Stop Till You get Enough" and head to the dance floor for some serious getting down."
Los Angeles spent $1.4 million US to provide security, traffic control and other services for Michael Jackson's memorial service, city officials said as they looked for ways for others to help the financially troubled city pick up the bill.
http://www.cbc.ca/arts/music/story/2009/07/09/jackson-memorial-cost.htmlThe Jackson estate should pick up the tab.
You don't think this circus has generated at least that much economic activity?
Exactly. I don't see how this is different than any other event that the city picks up the tab for.
Wouldn't that ordinarily be analyzed as private businesses enjoying the opportunity to sell lots of t-shirts, subsidized by the taxpayer? How does an increase in private business revenues become an increase in Municipal revenues? Cities can't tax income, can they?
Cities have a hotel tax. In any event, I'm not sure how much generated from that tax would cut into the expenses.
One thing I realized yesterday is that this is a divisive issue. People who were once friends are no longer friends. Why? because some people idolize Michael Jackson and cannot tolerate that other people don't. To make this an issue that is so divisive is just plain silly. Why does anyone care that I really have no real grief or sadness on his death? Or that I don't find his music to be as hroundbreaking as others? Or that I don't think he was a genious?
It's like MJ is now a cult, any wrongs he may have done are never to be discussed. It's all become silly.
I posted this one the day he died.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBVY_49KtHk
I grew up with his career as I am a little older.
He was one of a kind and for some of you was convicted of nothing.
No one could get them up dancing like him.
R.I.P.
Like O.J.? So we shouldn't insinuate otherwise, just as nobody would ever insinuate that O.J. might have done it, or that he's not really "searching for the real killer"?
Like O.J.? So we shouldn't insinuate otherwise, just as nobody would ever insinuate that O.J. might have done it, or that he's not really "searching for the real killer"?
O.J didnt do it...
I beg to differ. O.J most certainly did it.
nopee
edit - n the only reason ppl cared was because 2 white girls were dead
They weren't both "girls."
edit - n the only reason ppl cared was because 2 white girls were dead
Was that an interesting factoid that was revealed at Ron Goldman's autopsy??
edit - n the only reason ppl cared was because 2 white girls were dead
Was that an interesting factoid that was revealed at Ron Goldman's autopsy??
When I was 19 I said things like this, too, based on painful experience and not much else. This isn't the way to respond to statements like that....
Bullshit R_P. People cared because for ages we all idolized OJ Simpson. These were not girls, it was his wife. I am seriously starting to resent being called a fucking racist when I disagree with you. You seem to throw that around a lot. Yes it is deserved in some cases. having an opinion (after reading the evidence that was eliminated) is not fucking racism. It's called wanting the truth. The man walked after murder. That's fair to you?
Read "Without A Doubt" written by Marcia Clarke, the lead prosecutor. She talks about ALL the evidence that was not allowed in, and that racist POS cop didn't help the case at all.
BTW R_P, are you aware that OJ's home was filled with pictures of him with powerful white people? Guess what happened? His lawyers proceeded to ensure that all those pictures were taken down and replaced with black icons. Not because they were racist, but because OJ Simpson preferred the company of poweful white people.
OJ Simpson is not the embodiment of black power struggles. He is a man who killed his wife, got away with it in Criminal Court and was found to be negligent in Civil Court.
And there is absolutely nothing yopu can say that will make me change my mind.
.sI got chastised on another list for siply posting hyperlinks to three articles: The Guardian interview with Grace Rwaramba, his children's nanny, the Bob Herbert NYT Op-Ed and John Nevin's exposé in The Independent. I simply prefaced the hyperlinks with a sentence about stuff coming out about MJ's abusive behaviour. Two women said that this wasn't a feminist issue and that since he hadn't been convicted, he was to be treated as innocent. One woman made the point of saying she hadn't bothered reading the two latter pieces. Talk about denial...
Oh I know. It's really weird and sad how so many people chose to overlook these things. It's extreme idolization. I think most peole can easily separate the fact from the fiction but when it comes TO MJ and his death, not a chance. People, even when faced with overwhelming facts, are pretty quick to disregard them.
There's a really good article about celebrity and Michael Jackson by Chris Hedges over at Truthdig today:
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20090713_the_man_in_the_mirror/
"The moral nihilism of our culture licenses a dark voyeurism into other people's humiliation, pain, weakness and betrayal. Education, building community, honesty, transparency and sharing are qualities that will see you, in a gross perversion of democracy and morality, ridiculed and voted off any reality show. Fellow competitors for prize money and a chance for fleeting fame elect to "disappear" the unwanted. In the final credits of the reality show "America's Next Top Model," a picture of the woman expelled during the episode vanishes from the group portrait on the screen. Those cast aside become, at least to the television audience, nonpersons. Celebrities who can no longer generate publicity, good or bad, vanish. Life, these shows teach, is a brutal world of unadulterated competition and constant quest for notoriety and attention. And life is about the personal humiliation of those who oppose us. Those who win are the best. Those who lose deserve to be erased. Those who fail, those who are ugly or poor, are belittled and mocked. Human beings are used, betrayed and discarded in a commodity culture, which is pretty much the story of Jackson's life, although he experienced the equivalent of celebrity resurrection. This has been very good for his music sales and perhaps for his father's new recording company, which Joe Jackson made sure to plug at public events after his son's death. Compassion, competence, intelligence and solidarity are useless assets when human beings are commodities. Those who do not achieve celebrity status, who do not win the prize money or make millions in Wall Street firms, deserve their fate.
"The cult of self, which Jackson embodied, dominates our culture. This cult shares within it the classic traits of psychopaths: superficial charm, grandiosity and self-importance; a need for constant stimulation, a penchant for lying, deception and manipulation; and the incapacity for remorse or guilt. Jackson, from his phony marriages to his questionable relationships with young boys, had all these qualities. This is also the ethic promoted by corporations. It is the ethic of unfettered capitalism. It is the misguided belief that personal style and personal advancement, mistaken for individualism, are the same as democratic equality. It is the celebration of image over substance."
Don't see this above - take it with whatever amount of salt you feel appropriate:
scroll down to AUDIO, click on gene simmons/tranny jeff