Desmond Cole accuses Justin Trudeau of Subtle Racism

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terrytowel
Desmond Cole accuses Justin Trudeau of Subtle Racism

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terrytowel

This is what Desmond is tweeting this morning

I wrote recently about subtle racism. We saw an example of it at last night's #UpForDebate forum, during an answer from @JustinTrudeau.

Trudeau was asked about the factors that contribute to violence against women. His answer starts at 4:48

https://twitter.com/UpforDebate2015/status/646103600201003008

First Trudeau said a factor was "certain types of music -- there's a lot of misogyny in certain types of music." He did not say which types.

Trudeau also mentioned "shifting parental roles. There's a lot of communities in which fathers are less present." Again, he wasn't specific

Is it a coincidence that two of the three factors Trudeau cited about violence against women are well-worn stereotypes about black people?

If there are specific communities where hateful music and absent fathers cause violence against women, why wouldn't Trudeau name them?

Violence against women touches all people in Canada. Why did Trudeau narrow it down to certain groups of people, but not say who they are?

Perhaps Trudeau figured he did not have to name the communities with the violent music and absent fathers, since we all know who he means?

Some of you will say that Justin Trudeau is not racist. The point is that his responses were a very careless nod to anti-black stereotypes.

Trudeau's comments seemed off the cuff. Sadly, when Canadians think about social ills, too many of us default to the "bad black people."

I know partisans will love my comments here -- slow down. EVERY major political party in Canada gives voice to anti-black stereotypes.

Others will say that even if Trudeau was singling out certain communities, his comments about music and absent fathers are true. Slow down.

It is wrong for a political leader to take a problem that occurs in every community, and subtly single out one group as the problem.

By the way, Gilles Duceppe answered the same question about violence by citing religion. Which religion do you think he had in mind?

Tell me all you want that the Quebecois are suspicious of all religions--Islam is the current scapegoat for problems in Quebec, and beyond.

If we are not aware of subtle racial and cultural stereotypes, they can become our scapegoats for much broader social problems.

For those who do not understand how a conversation about violence against women becomes an indictment of blackness: https://twitter.com/TheCDNrealist/status/646309195927711744 …

https://storify.com/dcole/on-justin-trudeau-misogyny-and-the-nameless-co...

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Day after day people dig deep into their asses to pull out anything to bash Trudeau.

Meanwhile,Harper quietly cruises to victory.

If we're going to talk racism and misogyny,then we must talk about Harper's Conservatives.

terrytowel

alan smithee wrote:

Day after day people dig deep into their asses to pull out anything to bash Trudeau.

Meanwhile,Harper quietly cruises to victory.

If we're going to talk racism and misogyny,then we must talk about Harper's Conservatives.

That is interesting because reading Desmond tweeter feed several people have asked him about the new CPC commercials. They don't feature a single visible minority in them (these are the BRAND new ones). Desmond has not responded in any way with the CPC commercials featuring NO visible minorities in those commercials. Yet he RT and answers other questions, and tweets out stuff. But is silent about these new commercials not commenting at all.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

terrytowel wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

Day after day people dig deep into their asses to pull out anything to bash Trudeau.

Meanwhile,Harper quietly cruises to victory.

If we're going to talk racism and misogyny,then we must talk about Harper's Conservatives.

That is interesting because reading Desmond tweeter feed several people have asked him about the new CPC commercials. They don't feature a single visible minority in them (these are the BRAND new ones). Desmond has not responded in any way with the CPC commercials featuring NO visible minorities in those commercials. Yet he RT and answers other questions, and tweets out stuff. But is silent about these new commercials not commenting at all.

That's my point. The CPC is not 'subtly' racist,they are overtly racist and unapologetic about it.

quizzical

playing together in the same sand box?

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

quizzical wrote:

playing together in the same sand box?

I suggest if you do not like comments toward you that you find 'offensive' or a 'personal attack' that you should lay off the attacks yourself.

Pondering

Trudeau referred to porn in the same sentence which I don't think is considered a black thing. Cole is reaching for straws.

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

Harper 'Old Stock Canadian' and his all-white cast in his latest commercials is definitely racist but subtle enough not to be Donald Trump.

As for subtle racism, it's hard to think of anyone who hasn't been caught using culturally-embedded tropes if not antiquated stereotypes.

Pondering

laine lowe wrote:

Harper 'Old Stock Canadian' and his all-white cast in his latest commercials is definitely racist but subtle enough not to be Donald Trump.

As for subtle racism, it's hard to think of anyone who hasn't been caught using culturally-embedded tropes if not antiquated stereotypes.

Except this was not a case of either.

Unionist

alan smithee wrote:

quizzical wrote:

playing together in the same sand box?

I suggest if you do not like comments toward you that you find 'offensive' or a 'personal attack' that you should lay off the attacks yourself.

I thought quizzical was referring to Trudeau and Harper... but I'll let her speak for herself.

 

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Unionist wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

quizzical wrote:

playing together in the same sand box?

I suggest if you do not like comments toward you that you find 'offensive' or a 'personal attack' that you should lay off the attacks yourself.

I thought quizzical was referring to Trudeau and Harper... but I'll let her speak for herself.

 

No,she was blatantly referring to me and terry. She loves to dish it but she can't take it.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

No Pondering, this is nothing to slough out. At best it shows your boy doens't think before he speaks, can't speak without using cliches and stereotypes, and is a light wieght. He is completely UNFIT to be PM. You're continued defense of him is appalling. Go tweet Desmond Cole what you wrote and let us know what Cole says back to you.

Alan, as to focus on Trudeau, what do you exect. Everyone knows its about getting Harper. So answer this, why are the Greens and Libs focused almost entirely on the NDP, including on this board. I am getting tired of this meme "that its about Harper". Bull, Alan!

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Arthur,I'm sorry to tell you but this election is all about defeating the Conservatives. That's it and that's all.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Alan the broad majority of your posts emote the same platitude or ttack the NDP. I'm sick of it. You want to beat Harper, vote NDP, and you KNOW it. YOU KNOW full well that ABC means vote Liberal. Who do you think you're kidding. Liberal-Tory, SAME old story, and YOU KNOW that too!

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Pondering, if Mulcair had said what Le Daupin had said yesterday, you'd be all over it today. Admit it! What's the matter, afraid to admit it?

bekayne

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Pondering, if Mulcair had said what Le Daupin had said yesterday, you'd be all over it today. 

And you'd be defending him

jjuares

If Harper were to have said these things this site would be alive with accusations of racism and dog whistle politics. I am not sure if I want go as far as charging Trudeau with racism subtle or not on this thin gruel. But here's the thing this is a weird answer. So the misogyny in music and now absent fathers are factors in violence against women? What he is arguing that the absence of positive male role models increases the chance of boys growing up to be violent against women. But of course some of these absent fathers are absent because they are violent so his assumption is at best a generalization. It is true of course that positive role models would help but we may have had a shortage of these in the past as well. The other problem with his factors is that both these trends have become more prevalent in the last few decades. However, violence against women predates these trends. In the past violence against women of course was unreported. I am not sure I buy into Trudeaus factors at all.

Hunky_Monkey

At least someone out there is picking this up.  If Harper said it, crap would hit the fan.  Same with "old stock Canadian", a term used by Liberals like Stephane Dion and even Trudeau himself.  Yet, Trudeau attacks Harper on it, being a total hypocrite, and hardly anything by the media on it.  Priceless.

Pondering

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Pondering, if Mulcair had said what Le Daupin had said yesterday, you'd be all over it today. Admit it! What's the matter, afraid to admit it?

Absolutely not. As a whitish single mother myself I take offence to the notion that recognizing the challenges single mothers face is in any way racist and misogynistic lyrics are not limited to rap music. I very much appreciated Trudeau's reference to the harms of porn on developing teen sexuality. I'm not surprised you don't recognize these as feminist issues given the state of feminism in the progressive community.

I praised Trudeau for naming prostitution as violence against women and was disappointed he was as wishy washy on C -36 as Mulcair was.

I'll also say this, neither Trudeau nor Mulcair will overturn C-36 nor any part of it even though both voted against it.

 

 

bekayne

terrytowel wrote:

Trudeau was asked about the factors that contribute to violence against women. His answer starts at 4:48

Here's the specific question and answer

https://twitter.com/ryemaloney

Pondering

bekayne wrote:

terrytowel wrote:

Trudeau was asked about the factors that contribute to violence against women. His answer starts at 4:48

Here's the specific question and answer

https://twitter.com/ryemaloney

I wish I could find the transcript because the first 28 minutes of the debate was so boring and disappointing I couldn't bear to watch any longer.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Accusing Desmond Cole of "reaching for straws" strikes me as incredibly offensive. This dude has better things to do than "reach for straws" and, as one of Canada's best critics of race and culture, he doesn't have to work to hard to find it.

His criticism is measured, contextualized and spot on. 

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Pondering wrote:

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Pondering, if Mulcair had said what Le Daupin had said yesterday, you'd be all over it today. Admit it! What's the matter, afraid to admit it?

Absolutely not. As a whitish single mother myself I take offence to the notion that recognizing the challenges single mothers face is in any way racist and misogynistic lyrics are not limited to rap music. I very much appreciated Trudeau's reference to the harms of porn on developing teen sexuality. I'm not surprised you don't recognize these as feminist issues given the state of feminism in the progressive community.

I praised Trudeau for naming prostitution as violence against women and was disappointed he was as wishy washy on C -36 as Mulcair was.

I'll also say this, neither Trudeau nor Mulcair will overturn C-36 nor any part of it even though both voted against it.

 

 

Pondering, here we go again. Once more you're deciding who is senstivie to feminist issues and who isn't. Where do you get off? I follow several Professional Street Workers and Dommes on Twitter and you couldn't be more tone deaf on the issue of "prostitiuion" if you tried. As to the issue of what he said, he fell back on racist diatribes that are recognized for what they are. The fact he menitoned means that at least in part,he agrees with them. He is old fasioned, out of touch, and tone deaf. There is nothing to defend. Trudeau stepped in it. Deny it all you want, I'll take my cues from Desmone Cole and Mark THompson over you, any day! Trudeau is an unthinking, boorish clown. He's a light wieght, he thinks before he speaks. Your unconditionall support of him looks good on you.

jjuares

http://www.buzzfeed.com/paulmcleod/people-are-criticizing-justin-trudeau...
This is Trudeaus defence of his comments as well as Coles comments. Cole makes a good point. Why won't Trudeau name the particular type of music? Indeed. As I follow this argument I am getting even more uneasy with Trudeau's comments. Gee, I hope this doesn't mean I agree with Catchfire. I usually try to be on the opposite side of his arguments.

Pondering

Catchfire wrote:

Accusing Desmond Cole of "reaching for straws" strikes me as incredibly offensive. This dude has better things to do than "reach for straws" and, as one of Canada's best critics of race and culture, he doesn't have to work to hard to find it.

His criticism is measured, contextualized and spot on. 

No one is infallible. I don't believe that Trudeau was referencing black women and rap music indirectly or otherwise. I look forward to seeing the transcript but I have yet to find one.

The better someone's reputation the more important it is that they remain unbiased and accurate in their accusations before they tar and feather someone.

jjuares

Here is an interesting article about Trudeau's Sarah Palin-type response to the problem of violence against women. This article was written by Edmonton's own Paula Simon-yea
http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/paula-simons-please-dont-tackl...

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Pondering wrote:

Catchfire wrote:

Accusing Desmond Cole of "reaching for straws" strikes me as incredibly offensive. This dude has better things to do than "reach for straws" and, as one of Canada's best critics of race and culture, he doesn't have to work to hard to find it.

His criticism is measured, contextualized and spot on. 

No one is infallible. I don't believe that Trudeau was referencing black women and rap music indirectly or otherwise. I look forward to seeing the transcript but I have yet to find one.

The better someone's reputation the more important it is that they remain unbiased and accurate in their accusations before they tar and feather someone.

Pondering, your arrogance is breath taking.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Pondering wrote:

Catchfire wrote:

Accusing Desmond Cole of "reaching for straws" strikes me as incredibly offensive. This dude has better things to do than "reach for straws" and, as one of Canada's best critics of race and culture, he doesn't have to work to hard to find it.

His criticism is measured, contextualized and spot on. 

No one is infallible. I don't believe that Trudeau was referencing black women and rap music indirectly or otherwise. I look forward to seeing the transcript but I have yet to find one.

The better someone's reputation the more important it is that they remain unbiased and accurate in their accusations before they tar and feather someone.

Pondering, your arrogance is breath taking.

I have spoken to this in another thread; this is why Rabble's Babble area has become so useless. You can't "discuss" anything with people whose only reason for being here seems to be to be an apologist and propagandist for Trudeau and the LPC.

KarlL

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Alan the broad majority of your posts emote the same platitude or ttack the NDP. I'm sick of it. You want to beat Harper, vote NDP, and you KNOW it. YOU KNOW full well that ABC means vote Liberal. Who do you think you're kidding. Liberal-Tory, SAME old story, and YOU KNOW that too!

ABC wouldn't necessarily mean "vote Liberal" this time around.  There are a lot of ridings where there are NDP-Conservative fights and a vote for the NDP is the right ABC vote: in most of BC, Alberta and Saskatchewan, only a handful in Ontario admittedly but a fair few in Quebec.

By my count, using 308, there are 26 ridings in which there is a head-on NDP-CON battle (i.e., within 10%), with the Liberals not really in the game (i.e., at least 20% back of the leader). 

  1. Cariboo-Prince George
  2. Coquitlam-Port Coquitlam
  3. Coutenay-Alberni
  4. Kamloops-Thompson-Cariboo
  5. Kootenay-Columbia
  6. Mission-Matsqui-Fraser Canyon
  7. North Okanaga-Shuswap
  8. Pitt Meadows-Maple Ridge
  9. South Okanaga-West Kootenay
  10. Edmonton Manning
  11. Edmonton Mill Woods
  12. Lethbridge
  13. Denesthe-Missinippi-Churchill River
  14. Regina-Lewvan
  15. Regina Qu'Appelle
  16. Saskatoon-Grasswood
  17. Elmwood-Transcona
  18. Essex
  19. Oshawa
  20. Sarnia-Lambton
  21. Jonquiere
  22. Levis-Lotbiniere
  23. Louis-St-Laurent
  24. Montmagny-L'Islet-Kamouraska-Riviere-du-Loup
  25. Richmond-Arthabaska
  26. Fundy-Royal

By contrast, there are 30 ridings which are LIB-CON fights (i.e., within 10%), with the NDP not really in the game, (i.e., at least 20% back of the leader).  

  1. Delta
  2. Richmond Centre
  3. South Surrey-White Rock
  4. Steveston-Richmond East
  5. Calgary Centre
  6. Calgary Confederation
  7. Calgary Skyview
  8. Ajax
  9. Aurora-Oak Ridges-Richmond Hill
  10. Brampton North
  11. Brampton South
  12. Eglinton-Lawrence
  13. Etobicoke-Lakeshore
  14. Glengarry-Prescott-Russell
  15. Haldimand-Norfolk
  16. Kanata-Carleton
  17. King-Vaughan
  18. Markham-Stouffville
  19. Markham-Unionville
  20. Mississauga-Erin Mills
  21. Mississauga-Streetsville
  22. Nepean
  23. Oakville
  24. Oakville North-Burlington
  25. Ottawa West-Nepean
  26. Pickering-Uxbridge
  27. Vaughan-Woodbridge
  28. York Centre
  29. Mirimachi-Grand Lake
  30. Cumberland-Colchester

So, with current polls, there would be an edge to the Liberals but if those polls move slightly in the right direction, the numbers could be in rough balance. 

 

 

 

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Alan the broad majority of your posts emote the same platitude or ttack the NDP. I'm sick of it. You want to beat Harper, vote NDP, and you KNOW it. YOU KNOW full well that ABC means vote Liberal. Who do you think you're kidding. Liberal-Tory, SAME old story, and YOU KNOW that too!

I don't think so. But I do admit that if it's a race between the Cons and Libs,I'd recommend voting Liberal. I do support strategic voting. Whoever is best positioned to defeat the Conservatives. Even if it means voting Green or Bloc.

I live in an NDP riding where the Conservatives have no chance in hell. I wish I could say that for all ridings but we both no that it's not true nor is it possible.

This election has me in a weird predicament. I want the NDP to do very well but on the other side of the coin I want the same for the Liberals.

It's simple logic. If both those parties do well,it's BYe-Bye Harper and it's time to party like it's 1999.If they don't,4 more years of PM Mussolini.

I'd rather party. How about you?

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Pondering, have you at least read Desmond Cole's actual statement? I know you haven't bothered to read or hear Trudeau's, but at least you are loyal.

In essence, Cole asks: Why did Trudeau, to a question on violence against women, reference two well-worn stereotypes of black people (1. rap music and 2. fatherless families) without specifically mentioning black people? A simple question, after which he goes out of his way to contextualize and mention that all parties are guilty of similar stereotyping (specifically mentioning Gilles Duceppe).

I hope you at least read that paragraph before jumping, again, to the defence of Trudeau. Before you say it, Trudeau's intent does not matter. What matters are the words he spoke.

Here is the correct response, Justin: My reference was inappropriate and racist and I unreservedly withdraw it. Violence against women is rooted in patriarchal power structures that touch our society at all points and in all cultures. I was wrong to suggest otherwise. The affected communities around Canada have my full apology.

Rev Pesky

Well, we should at least get out in the open what we're talking about. Here's some hip-hop lyrics:

 

Quote:
Bitches ain't shit but hoes and tricks / Lick on these nuts and suck the dick / Get's the fuck out after you're done / And I hops in my ride to make a quick run.

Dr. Dre, "Bitches Ain't Shit"

Slut, you think I won't choke no whore / 'Til the vocal cords don't work in her throat no more?! / Shut up slut, you're causin' too much chaos.

Eminem, "Kill You"

Punch your bitch in her mouth just for talkin' shit / You lurkin' bitch? Well, I see that shit / Once again I gotta punch a bitch in her shit / I'm icy bitch, don't look at my wrist / Because if you do, I might blind you bitch.

Jasper Dolphin, "Bitch Suck Dick" by Tyler, The Creator 

Personally, I don't think this is a phenomenon associated with the Black community. Where I live you can hear hip-hop blasting out from car stereos being driven mainly by young white males. Note also that the middle lyric is Eminem, about as white as can be.

Desmond Cole expressed an opinion on Trudeau's comments. In his mind, the comments immediately triggered thoughts of the black community. In my mind they didn't. Which one of us was stereotyping?

 

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Rev Pesky wrote:

Well, we should at least get out in the open what we're talking about. Here's some hip-hop lyrics:

 

Quote:
Bitches ain't shit but hoes and tricks / Lick on these nuts and suck the dick / Get's the fuck out after you're done / And I hops in my ride to make a quick run.

Dr. Dre, "Bitches Ain't Shit"

Slut, you think I won't choke no whore / 'Til the vocal cords don't work in her throat no more?! / Shut up slut, you're causin' too much chaos.

Eminem, "Kill You"

Punch your bitch in her mouth just for talkin' shit / You lurkin' bitch? Well, I see that shit / Once again I gotta punch a bitch in her shit / I'm icy bitch, don't look at my wrist / Because if you do, I might blind you bitch.

Jasper Dolphin, "Bitch Suck Dick" by Tyler, The Creator 

Personally, I don't think this is a phenomenon associated with the Black community. Where I live you can hear hip-hop blasting out from car stereos being driven mainly by young white males. Note also that the middle lyric is Eminem, about as white as can be.

Desmond Cole expressed an opinion on Trudeau's comments. In his mind, the comments immediately triggered thoughts of the black community. In my mind they didn't. Which one of us was stereotyping?

 

Rev, your post is nonsense. Re read what Catchfire wrote and try it again. You Libs will say anything.

montrealer58 montrealer58's picture

I bet you really enjoyed typing in every letter of that filth.

swallow

Racism is insidious. "Nice" guys do it all the time, without even thinking.

Did Justin Trudeau sit there and say "I think I'll make some winks to the racists"? No, I would doubt it very much.

Did he, without thinking too much, go straight to stereotypes that invoke fears of black violence, a form of subtle, unthinking racism? I think so, yes, perhaps he did. (Actually, the thought I had on the fathers leaving their children stereotype was the Canadian prairies stereotype against many First Nations men, but that's a form of racism that I'm more familiar with than racism against black people.)

More important, someone like Desmond Cole who has spent a lot of time thinking very hard about these things heard a form of subtle racism in 2 of 3 things Trudeau mentioned, and one that Duceppe mentioned. As he says, Cole didn't comment to attack the Liberal party or campaign - he said subtle racism is there in all parties.

As with many suggestions that a subtle, insidious, unthinking form of racism is there, I think a useful response is to stop, think before talking, reflect a bit more and from an awareness of one’s own privilege, and then respond if you wish - and in ways that respect Cole (or whoever raised it) rather than by accusing Cole, subtly or not, of stereotyping and being mean.

The racism 101 threads are, as always, worth a read. 

God I’ll be glad when this insanely long election is over and pointing out unthinking racist assumptions is understood as part of an ongoing conversation about race and racism, not as part of a coast to coast partisan mudwrestling match. 

quizzical

when i read Trudeau's words i immediately thought the rural religious right is his target audience. i hear shit like this all the time from them both here and in Grande Prairie.

subtle racism so they can have plausible deniability and turn on you if you suggest to them they are bigots.

takeitslowly

the lack of father figure in certain communities..due to certain communities being more violent? come on. its unacceptable of course...pretty elitist for a priv8ileged white guy born with a silver spoon to talk downt o "certain community"

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

The one thing that is ABSOLUTELY TRUE is that had Mulcair said this, we'd never have heard the end of it from all the Libs on this board and they KNOW IT! Listening to them cry the blues about this is like watching crocs cry! Ridiculous!

takeitslowly

they would say Mulcair is worse than Harper, a racist neo con!

takeitslowly

they would say Mulcair is worse than Harper, a racist neo con!

Unionist

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Rev, your post is nonsense. Re read what Catchfire wrote and try it again. You Libs will say anything.

You are really too offensive to carry on a mature conversation these days, Arthur. Take a rest, get a life. And stop this fucking bullshit of accusing people of being "Libs". It is way way beneath you.

 

bekayne

quizzical wrote:

when i read Trudeau's words i immediately thought the rural religious right is his target audience.

The very people who would have been the least likely to watch the interview

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Don't worry about me Jack! Yeah, maybe, you're all right. Maybe, maybe not. But OK.

jjuares

Unionist wrote:

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Rev, your post is nonsense. Re read what Catchfire wrote and try it again. You Libs will say anything.

You are really too offensive to carry on a mature conversation these days, Arthur. Take a rest, get a life. And stop this fucking bullshit of accusing people of being "Libs". It is way way beneath you.

 


Now it is painfully obvious that you have been given carte blanche by the moderators to engage in personal attacks. You might want to consider this before launching one of your patronizing missives. He didn't accuse them of being Libs in the example you provided. He accused them of saying anything. If you are going to set yourself up as some moral authority you might want to try and get the fucking facts right.

quizzical

bekayne wrote:
quizzical wrote:
when i read Trudeau's words i immediately thought the rural religious right is his target audience.

The very people who would have been the least likely to watch the interview

 

bs, here in BC he needs their vote and they're switch Liberal  Conservative voters believers remember our marvellous coalition government?

Pondering

Catchfire wrote:
 Pondering, have you at least read Desmond Cole's actual statement? I know you haven't bothered to read or hear Trudeau's, but at least you are loyal.

I listened to the first 28 minutes so I heard the comment first hand before hearing about Cole's comment. Ever since I have been looking for a full transcript because I didn't think Cole got it right. I was right, he didn't.  

Catchfire wrote:
In essence, Cole asks: Why did Trudeau, to a question on violence against women, reference two well-worn stereotypes of black people (1. rap music and 2. fatherless families) without specifically mentioning black people? A simple question, after which he goes out of his way to contextualize and mention that all parties are guilty of similar stereotyping (specifically mentioning Gilles Duceppe).  

The answer is, he didn't. The question was not about violence against women. 

This was the question: 

Pelletier: I was going to say, you’d like to think that this is the problem of an older generation of men who haven’t quite accepted that women have their equal place in the workplace and everywhere else in society, but actually, a lot of the abuse that we are seeing now, the abuse when women journalists do stand-up, the obscenities that are yelled at them, the anonymous blogger at the University of Toronto the other day, these are young men… they’re not old men, they’re young men. How do you explain that?

She is specifically speaking about young men and particularly referenced the "Fuck her right in the pussy" (FHRITP) phenomenon. So we are not discussing misogyny in general but specifically the misogyny of young men, and if anything white young men as FHRITP is a white thing isn't it? I haven't seen a lot of it but what I have seen has been young white males. 

This was Trudeau's response:

Trudeau: I don’t know where exactly to point my finger. I think there’s probably an awful lot of factors that come together to shape societal behaviours, whether it’s certain types of music. There is a lot of misogyny in certain types of music. There are issues around pornography and its prevalence now and its accessibility, which I am really wrapping my head around now as a father of kids who are approaching their teen years and there is also the shifting parental roles as well. There’s a lot of communities in which fathers are less present than they have been or might have been in the past and there’s a need for engaged positive role models.

The last controversy on misogyny in music was Alan Thicke's Blurred Lines and our most famous rapper by far is Drake whose lyrics are not violent. Country music and pop music are also sometimes mysogynistic. 

Speaking of his own role in guiding his children, a girl as well as a boy, who may soon be exposed to porn, he recognizes the challenge in wrapping his head around dealing with this issue. That very naturally led to him referring to children whose fathers are less present and the need for role models. 

Catchfire wrote:
 I hope you at least read that paragraph before jumping, again, to the defence of Trudeau. Before you say it, Trudeau's intent does not matter. What matters are the words he spoke. 

Ironically it is Cole who made factual errors and you who jump to his defence without knowing the details. Intent may not matter when something is clearly racist but misogyny in music is not limited to rap, or black people. He then switched to talking about porn which is very white then to fathers who are less present after discussing his own fatherhood. FHRITP was in the question. "Certain music" is not code for black music it just means not all music is misogynistic, just certain music. 

Catchfire wrote:
 Here is the correct response, Justin: My reference was inappropriate and racist and I unreservedly withdraw it. Violence against women is rooted in patriarchal power structures that touch our society at all points and in all cultures. I was wrong to suggest otherwise. The affected communities around Canada have my full apology.

He wasn't talking about violence and he most definitely didn't suggest black music or black families are responsible for the misogyny of FHRITP. 

Cole owes Trudeau a retraction and apology. 

 

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

This place, I swear to god.

jjuares

Hilarious and sad

Pondering

Catchfire wrote:
This place, I swear to god.

I take it you are inferring that the details of what he was talking about don't matter, only that "certain music" and "fatherless children" can still be construed as "rap music" and "black families". I would accept criticism that it was an unfortunate choice of words because some people could interpret it that way. I just don't accept the accusation that in this case it was racism subtle or otherwise. 

I do think it matters that the topic was young men and misogyny not violence against women. I think it matters that he discussed porn in between. I also think when we are discussing something this subtle and open to other innocent interpretations that intend does matter. Racism is a very serious charge. I can't think of anything worse that isn't illegal. 

jjuares

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