FNs: Don't Vote For Canada!

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kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

If an indigenous person is a sovereignist then voting in a settler election would be a denial of their beliefs.

Absolutely not. They can determine their own beliefs and what is, or is not, a denial of them. That is not up to some white man to instruct them on.

They have the right to vote in federal elections and certainly, regardless of what they want in the future, their communities have needs that they have a right to advocate for at the ballot box. They have every right to reject Canada AND vote in an election for the candidate who would serve their interests the closest. -- Or to decide to boycott if they think that is a stronger message.

They have this right on account of the power of the Canadian state over their land and peoples- whether or not they agree with that power being there.

Your logic suggests that people in Quebec who want a distinct country do not have the right to vote in federal elections either or that people in Northern Ireland do not have a right to vote for a candidate of their choosing in British elections if they do not agree with NI being a part of Britain. They have a right to boycott, elect an MP who will not take a seat, or one who will to support in whatever way possible their view on sessession, or one who will advocate for other political priorities they have.

It. Is. Not. Up. To. You.

Your comment is shockingly paternalistic coming from someone who likes to lecture others about imperialism.

 

Sean you just built a very very tall straw man. Please stop telling me what I believe. I never fucking said anything about people rights to vote in any elections. I was commenting on the fact that the indigenous sovereignists I know personally have that view.

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

If an indigenous person is a sovereignist then voting in a settler election would be a denial of their beliefs.

Absolutely not. They can determine their own beliefs and what is, or is not, a denial of them. That is not up to some white man to instruct them on.

They have the right to vote in federal elections and certainly, regardless of what they want in the future, their communities have needs that they have a right to advocate for at the ballot box. They have every right to reject Canada AND vote in an election for the candidate who would serve their interests the closest. -- Or to decide to boycott if they think that is a stronger message.

They have this right on account of the power of the Canadian state over their land and peoples- whether or not they agree with that power being there.

Your logic suggests that people in Quebec who want a distinct country do not have the right to vote in federal elections either or that people in Northern Ireland do not have a right to vote for a candidate of their choosing in British elections if they do not agree with NI being a part of Britain. They have a right to boycott, elect an MP who will not take a seat, or one who will to support in whatever way possible their view on sessession, or one who will advocate for other political priorities they have.

It. Is. Not. Up. To. You.

Your comment is shockingly paternalistic coming from someone who likes to lecture others about imperialism.

 

Sean you just built a very very tall straw man. Please stop telling me what I believe. I never fucking said anything about people rights to vote in any elections. I was commenting on the fact that the indigenous sovereignists I know personally have that view.

No you are lying. Nothing about Indigenous people you know just you saying that using this right is a denial of their beliefs. That is offensive. Denying the legitimacy of their beliefs if they vote is something you have no right to do.

I never told you what to believe I said you had no right to call into question the legitimacy of Indigenous people who choose to vote.

This is what you said:

"If an indigenous person is a sovereignist then voting in a settler election would be a denial of their beliefs. I am hoping that given the Liberals fight with the Human Rights tribunal and the NDP's strong candidates they will win over many First Nations communities that last time got sucked in by Trudeau's lies. I am not sure how many ridings it is but there are certainly a fair number where the indigenous population is large enough to swing an election."

NDPP

"Don't vote + they have a mission called more business as usual land theft and genocide. They depend on it for their survival"

https://twitter.com/KanahusFreedom/status/1180493266736648192

 

'Voting is Self-Termination!'

https://twitter.com/RussDiabo/status/1176493155287482369

"...Why I now agree that voting is self-termination!"

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

Some Indigenous people vote in Canadian elections while some do not.   There are differing views within Indigenous nations as to how they approach settler state elections.   They need to be respected regardless as to the conclusion they draw.   That is all.

 

Sean in Ottawa

radiorahim wrote:

Some Indigenous people vote in Canadian elections while some do not.   There are differing views within Indigenous nations as to how they approach settler state elections.   They need to be respected regardless as to the conclusion they draw.   That is all.

 

Exactly the point I was making. It is offensive when people with agendas that have nothing to do with them start proclaiming things like that it is wrong for them to vote or it is a betrayal of their beliefs to do so. They get to decide that. Just like any other oppressed people.

NorthReport

Well said Radiorahim and Sean

NDPP

So this modest proposal then: If  'progressive' settlers stopped voting for candidates in ridings on illegally occupied, unceded, Indigenous territories, Canada's  ongoing neocolonialist oppression and usurpation-as-genocide could no longer be ignored and might finally end. Vichy elections are not a solution.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

radiorahim wrote:

Some Indigenous people vote in Canadian elections while some do not.   There are differing views within Indigenous nations as to how they approach settler state elections.   They need to be respected regardless as to the conclusion they draw.   That is all.

Thank you for reiterating my point.

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

radiorahim wrote:

Some Indigenous people vote in Canadian elections while some do not.   There are differing views within Indigenous nations as to how they approach settler state elections.   They need to be respected regardless as to the conclusion they draw.   That is all.

Thank you for reiterating my point.

Your earlier point perhaps but I cannot square it with this comment you made:

"If an indigenous person is a sovereignist then voting in a settler election would be a denial of their beliefs."

It is too bad you said that becuase your previous points were more on point.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Whatever, lets get back to the issues.

 

quizzical

bs SeaninO. i got what kropotkin said the first time he said it which was exactly what both you and radio..said.

ffs you read it wrong and then jumped all over someone. 

why is it you only show up at election times and then start yelling at people?

btw what do you think you're doing when in jump in and go all hero?

Sean in Ottawa

quizzical wrote:

bs SeaninO. i got what kropotkin said the first time he said it which was exactly what both you and radio..said.

ffs you read it wrong and then jumped all over someone. 

why is it you only show up at election times and then start yelling at people?

btw what do you think you're doing when in jump in and go all hero?

Explain this:

"If an indigenous person is a sovereignist then voting in a settler election would be a denial of their beliefs."

He hasn't.

It certainly sounds like he is interpreting the action of an individual's vote as denying their beliefs. That deserved to be called out. Not sure what the pile-on does for you but fill yer boots.

As for being here at election time it is true I took a break for a few months from this place becuase of the bullshit here. But over the last very many years most of my posts have not been at election time. So what? Most people who were here in the past have left for a while - or stayed away permanently -- this place is going downhill. I am not committing to being here or leaving. I don't think there is any obligation to do either.

and by the way -- I see you do a lot of yelling yourself.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

If an indigenous woman is a sovereignist she might not even register her children with Canadian authorities let alone vote in a colonial election. I had a great visit in Blue River with her and other Tiny House Warriors and voting for change never came up in our talks about supportive actions by allies. I was honoured that my wife and I were given some ribbons to hang along the Highway of Tears as a memorial when we continued on our journey.

How do you even begin to untangle that? What are the challenges?
People ask me, "How do you survive without the child tax?" Especially native parents who don't have any income or low income. We just learn to survive without it. Sometimes we have to be dependent on that system to heal our family. It does become hard, especially with dental, and having to eat a portion of our food from the store. When we're on the road especially, that's a big issue. But the aim is always autonomy and sovereignty. We have to depend on ourselves, we can't depend on a system. We're going to have to find those people in our nations and movements that could provide those services for our people.

https://www.vice.com/amp/en_ca/article/7bmp7x/an-indigenous-mom-explains...

quizzical

Sean pretty simple really. maybe you don't get it as clearly being from eastern Canada but here in BC most land isn't ceded. Sovereign nationhood is lived. 

a good many  Indigenous i know here don't vote nor sing or otherwise acknowledge O Canada at public events especially those events not acknowledging whose Nation they're on.

Kropotkin not a huge fan of Kanahus or rather her actions. she's a fabulous strong women. because i dont believe ends justify the phoney means, on any occasion i can't support her actions.

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Thanks quizzical, yes I understood that you and Kanahus are not on the same page on many issues however she and her father and grandfather are spokespeople for the view that our settler society has no legal or moral foundation because it is based on the Doctrine of Discovery. Reading Unsettling Canada is something I would recommend to anyone who has not yet done so. Here is a good unbiased review, IMO.

https://quillandquire.com/review/unsettling-canada-a-national-wake-up-call/

Sean in Ottawa

quizzical wrote:

Sean pretty simple really. maybe you don't get it as clearly being from eastern Canada but here in BC most land isn't ceded. Sovereign nationhood is lived. 

a good many  Indigenous i know here don't vote nor sing or otherwise acknowledge O Canada at public events especially those events not acknowledging whose Nation they're on.

Kropotkin not a huge fan of Kanahus or rather her actions. she's a fabulous strong women. because i dont believe ends justify the phoney means, on any occasion i can't support her actions.

 

Not sure wjhat your agenda is in this thread becuase you seem to be working extremely hard to avoid the point I was making which has absolutely nothing to do with me being in Eastern Canada which is a hobby horse of you and K.

I do not think it is up to anyone regardless of the province they live in to assume that all people of any group have to interpret their rights to vote to be consitent with any other beliefs they have. I objected to a comment and really it ran its course until you jumped in to revive the conflict and keep it going for your apparent amusement or whatever.

My reasoning may have been coloured in part by following the situation in Northern Ireland where many people vote in the UK elections who do not believe that the UK legitimately ought to control any part of Ireland. This is not a contradiction.

I know the culture here is so polarized that you are unable to get past my objection which is not hard to understand -- that is if you wanted to -- and that you have to find a bunch of ridiculous insults to keep the conflict going. I find it absurd that you find my position so much harder to understand than the comment which I already said was unfortunate given K's previously more balanced comments. We both had reached a point where the issue was done until you decided that you had not had enough popcorn or whatever and wanted to revive the thing. Exactly what the hell did you want to achieve by jumping into a spat that had ended and had ended with somewhat of  an acknowledgement on my part that the comment was not representative of all K had to say.

Then you attacked me for only coming back here after a few months away. Your attack was gratutitous given that the discussion had closed when you jumped in and not at all constructive. Your attack only revived a conflict that had ended. Kropotkin do not have to agree on everythign and you do not have to be an arbiter of other people's arguments. Frankly you do not have the skills, motivations or diplomacy to do that job. It is ironic that you could acuse me of picking a fight when I actually had a substantive comment to make on a principle you may disagree with but at least I explained it-- yours was just an insult to pick a fight.

***

Yes I know Indigenous people who do not identify with Canada or vote. I have never heard them say that this personal choice is the only universal choice to make for people who have this view.

I personally do not even identify nationally as I have become revolted by nationalism. You could say that me voting in a national election is a problem since I think national governments are counter productive in the world. I do not feel the need to reconcile this. I vote for the reasons I vote. In an ideal world I would prefer there were no national governments and just a single world government. I do not respect the role of Canada in ruling over Indigenous people or the real oppression and inequality they face. I have not made my protest into not voting. Probably it is becuase I think the gesture would be futile. This does not mean I do not respect those who make that choice.

Kropotkin has said much of the same thing. However, he made a comment that I objected to and criticized. It got resolved. You decided to have an extra dig at the fact that I live in Eastern Canada.

I have often found interaction with you difficult. You are often correct and I agree with you most of the time but your divisive attacks on people - like based on where they live - especially when it comes to attacking without even being involved in the initial conversations makes you impossible to ally with. This is too bad as the left in general has this circular firing squad tradition that you seem to have taken such a fondness for.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Whatever

quizzical
NDPP

'AFN Chief Urges Indigenous Voters to Vote in 2019'

https://twitter.com/RussDiabo/status/1185567735167750145

 

'He Won't Run For PM, But He Will Endorse One!'

https://twitter.com/CoastProtectors/status/1185259745415811078

Grand Chiefs For Canada...

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Given that his wife, Joan Phillip, is running as an NDP candidate in the Central Okanagan-Similkameen-Nicola I expect he would be fully on side with the Orange team.

Pondering

Reading the thread and agreeing with Sean. No non-indigenous person has a right to tell indigenous people what it means when they vote or don't vote or whether they should or they shouldn't vote. 

The title of this thread is an order to FN people not to vote because if they do they are voting "for Canada". 

quizzical

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Given that his wife, Joan Phillip, is running as an NDP candidate in the Central Okanagan-Similkameen-Nicola I expect he would be fully on side with the Orange team.

he is and was with Jagmeet, Joan and Richard in Penticton last night.

NDPP

'AFN & Its Indian Act Chiefs Complicit in the Colonization of FN Peoples'

https://twitter.com/1mohawklawyer/status/1184978496306778118

"...IMO, Greens & NDP like Liberals work w/AFN & Chiefs & Councils not First Nation peoples..."

'An exercise in self-termination': That's why they want you to vote for Canada. Please don't. (See #1)

"Any FN person involved in the federal electoral process will be, wittingly or unwittingly, part of implementing the government's termination plan." - R Diabo-

NDPP

"...At this stage, it doesn't look like Indigenous issues will feature prominently in the rest of the campaign and are at risk of disappearing entirely from focus. How is it possible for Canada to be found guilty of genocide in June and then have federal leaders focus their campaigns on middle-class jobs and taxes in September? Indigenous peoples continue to die at alarming rates from Canada's infrastructure of racist laws, police and practices..."

Palmater: Indigenous Issues Largely Absent From 2019 Election...

https://buff.ly/2qi1jRF

NDPP

'Choose Your Colonizer Wisely...'

https://twitter.com/MrCanucklehead/status/1186311869339881473

"No matter who you vote for settler colonialism ALWAYS wins."

NDPP

Looks like the settler election gambit didn't quite pan out for the Grand Chief's NDP candidate wife either...

[Watch #220 above]

Central Okanagan-Similkameen-Nicola

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/federal/2019/results

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