Oil sands ownership
June 29, 2008 - 11:07am
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I'm trying to do some research on the oil sands and in particular I heard from someone that Petro Canada had a monopoly on the oil sands....but that goes counter to everything I've heard which is that it is predominantly a foreign controlled operation. Can anyone shed some light on this? As well as some good websites that have information on foreign ownership in the oil sands? Thanks!
....come on, nobody has any answers? I tried doing my own research but there is, admittedly little information on this. Does anyone have any information on where the oil sands profits go?
Did you look at the Wikipedia entry?
"I tried doing my own research but there is, admittedly little information on this."
I'll tell you a little secret. Before there was the internet, there was this thing called the library, where people did research.
Thanks, I've been looking through it just now. So far it looks like right now most of the money stays in Canada (not that it spreads around very far). Planned production is a different story with much more foreign involvement planned but still not as much as Canadian owned production in barrels per day (2045000 barrels per day versus 3180000).
I'm not sure if this is the complete story or not however.
[ 01 July 2008: Message edited by: dw_ptbo ]
[ 01 July 2008: Message edited by: dw_ptbo ]
I don't think my local library would have much information on current oil sands ownership and profits, thanks.
Hiya, ptbo
welcome to babble, a rare place on the web.
Your original question was about Petro-Canada. For an understanding of oil in Canada, you should at least go back to the Trudeau era. That predates the info-net.
As an old fart I worry that students may believe the world started in 1998, or whenever it was that Al Gore turned on the internet [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img] There is still a ton of information that hasn't made the leap to the digi-verse, but lives quietly waiting, in the library.
I guess my real point should be is that you should do your own research. I believe around these parts anyway, you are more likely to engage people in discussion if you bring some salient info to the table to discuss, rather than asking, "Where can I find info on Petro-Canada or Monsanto etc."
cheers,
Happy Canada Day!
quote:There is not another region in the world with energy deposits of comparable magnitude where it would be less likely that the installations would be confiscated by a hostile national government, or be endangered by a war or revolution.
From the wikipedia article. Yes, the world belongs to America, and luckily, they don't have to worry about uppity locals interfering with their oil here in Strong and Free Alberta. Not when there are plenty of Quislings eager to give it away.
What is being given away? Foreigners are spending billions of dollars to build infrastructure and to hire Canadian workers. This is an activity to be punished?
How are those royalty holidays treating you? Pretty good, I imagine.
[img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
quote:Originally posted by Jingles:
How are those royalty holidays treating you? Pretty good, I imagine.Way better than the Lubicon are being treated these days: quote:Lubicon land ownership was not heavily debated until 1975 when petroleum companies and forestry giants began to arrive. Practically overnight an intact and self-sufficient community was faced with a unprecedented decline in wildlife, water contamination, and tuberculosis outbreaks.Of course, neo-liberal economics leaves no room for native peoples or nature in general, does it, Stephen?
[img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
If you want to go a little deeper than wikipedia check this out.
quote: What is being given away? Foreigners are spending billions of dollars to build infrastructure and to hire Canadian workers. This is an activity to be punished?
Indigenous land. Not their oil to be giving, no matter how many "Canadian workers" are hired or billions spent on infrastructure.
I took some petroleum production accounting courses a few years back and, I believe that the majority, if not all of the "Oil Sands" is owned by The Crown and at that time the majority of the mining and upgrading was being done by Suncor, Syncrude, and to a lesser extent Imperial Oil and Petro Canada.
I have found these links but have not gone through all of the 3rd one yet. I will keep digging and see what else I can find.
http://www.ags.gov.ab.ca/activities/cbm/alberta_oil_sands.html
http://www.ags.gov.ab.ca/activities/CBM/alberta_oil_sands2.html
http://www.energy.gov.ab.ca/Org/pdfs/TechReport-1_OilSands.pdf
quote:Originally posted by Stephen Gordon:
[img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] A more intelligent response than we've seen from you in years.
[THREAD DRIFT]
quote:Originally posted by Fleabitn:
There is still a ton of information that hasn't made the leap to the digi-verse, but lives quietly waiting, in the library.
And ever it shall remain living quietly in libraries for that segment of our population below some age X.
I'd guess that most college students (and recent college grads) have not even heard of, for example, a "Readers' Guide to Periodical Literature".
Personally, even for a person who grew up and went to college in pre-Internet days, I would have a hard time going back to the days of paper research. It's just sooooooooooo sloooooooooow....
[/THREAD DRIFT]
quote:Originally posted by Yibpl:
I took some petroleum production accounting courses a few years back and, I believe that the majority, if not all of the "Oil Sands" is owned by The Crown and at that time the majority of the mining and upgrading was being done by Suncor, Syncrude, and to a lesser extent Imperial Oil and Petro Canada.
I have found these links but have not gone through all of the 3rd one yet. I will keep digging and see what else I can find.
http://www.ags.gov.ab.ca/activities/cbm/alberta_oil_sands.html
http://www.ags.gov.ab.ca/activities/CBM/alberta_oil_sands2.html
http://www.energy.gov.ab.ca/Org/pdfs/TechReport-1_OilSands.pdf
Thanks very much for those links. I am having a look through them.
quote: I believe that the majority, if not all of the "Oil Sands" is owned by The Crown
This is wrong. Read the treaties. The Crown does not own any land in the numbered treaties.
This shows you that you have to look outside the easiest sources if you are researching. Especially in Canada where there is much misinformation on land rights coming from otherwise trustworthy sources.
ps- If you're in Ptbo check out the Trent library. If you know a staff, faculty or student person you can get them to give you their password for the e-journals.
I still have access to e-journals although at Queens I'll see what else I can find. I'll see what I can find. Does anyone know of some good books on the oil sands? I read a really good one about the oil and gas industry in Alberta called Saboteurs by Andrew Nikiforuk, it was a great read.
quote:Originally posted by Stephen Gordon:
What is being given away? Foreigners are spending billions of dollars to build infrastructure and to hire Canadian workers. This is an activity to be punished?Actually the American companies are now bringing in foreign "temporary" workers. Last time I looked Alaska charged more in royalties than Alberta. And compared to the rest of the world Alberta royalties are a fucking joke. But since they have the largest oil reserves they do set the bar for other Canadian oil, so they are not only giving away their own oil they are adversely affecting the other provinces royalties.
Not to mention that the tar sands is the biggest "environmental disaster in the making" on the planet.
quote:Originally posted by dw_ptbo:
I still have access to e-journals although at Queens I'll see what else I can find. I'll see what I can find. Does anyone know of some good books on the oil sands? I read a really good one about the oil and gas industry in Alberta called Saboteurs by Andrew Nikiforuk, it was a great read.Oil sands is a whitewash name. It is tar not a little sand. One sounds so much nicer like a walk in the beach is all that is required to get the oil out of the TAR.
quote:Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
Actually the American companies are now bringing in foreign "temporary" workers. Last time I looked Alaska charged more in royalties than Alberta. And compared to the rest of the world Alberta royalties are a fucking joke. But since they have the largest oil reserves they do set the bar for other Canadian oil, so they are not only giving away their own oil they are adversely affecting the other provinces royalties.
Not to mention that the tar sands is the biggest "environmental disaster in the making" on the planet.
But it's OK when Canadian companies do it, right?
Clearly wrong.
Might I suggest sticking to the rolly-eye emoticons rather than asking stupid, pointless questions?
quote:Originally posted by Stephen Gordon:
But it's OK when Canadian companies do it, right?
Nope but the reality is that it is primarily US corporations. Canadian sycophants don't get a free ride either. The TAR sands is a disaster on all levels.quote:Originally posted by Lard Tunderin' Jeezus:
Clearly wrong.
Might I suggest sticking to the rolly-eye emoticons rather than asking stupid, pointless questions?
Might I suggest answering the question? Or just shutting up if you have nothing to say?
Or if thinking makes you tired, you could just say
quote:~yawn~
And then you could go to bed.
[ 02 July 2008: Message edited by: Stephen Gordon ]
quote:Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
Nope but the reality is that it is primarily US corporations. Canadian sycophants don't get a free ride either. The TAR sands is a disaster on all levels.
So the issue isn't foreign ownership.
No, no. The positive perfection of foreign ownership completely justifies the environmental and human rights disaster, as proven by the pseudo-mathematical equations of the neo-liberal school of economics. Right, Stephen? quote:What is being given away? Foreigners are spending billions of dollars to build infrastructure and to hire Canadian workers. This is an activity to be punished? Toxins and carbon overload are being given away. But no one wants them, and everyone is going to pay heavily in the end - even the most cranky and caliginous of those toiling on the rock face of the academic salt mine.
So yes, this is an activity to be punished.
So the problem is the development of the oil sands, not the nationality of the owners of the firms that are doing it..
So you can't perceive that there might be an advantage to that ownership operating under the rules and jurisdiction of the country being plundered and polluted, rather than being extra-territorial?
All firms operating in Canada and in Alberta do so according to Canadian and Albertan rules, regardless of the nationality of their owners.
My turn: [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
Get a good night's rest and try again tomorrow.
So you applaud the ability of corporate criminals to privatize profits and evade social responsibility, and cannot conceive of a world in which they might possibly be held responsible for their actions?
quote:Originally posted by Stephen Gordon:
So the problem is the development of the oil sands, not the nationality of the owners of the firms that are doing it..The sky is blue but the clouds are grey. No the stupid words you are presenting are your own and don't represent my views. But then you are an economist. So you are Chicago School right? So how's your collection of Ayn Rand books? Do you have them all and are they first editions?
quote:Originally posted by Lard Tunderin' Jeezus:
So you can't perceive that there might be an advantage to that ownership operating under the rules and jurisdiction of the country being plundered and polluted, rather than being extra-territorial?
What the hell does that mean?
You're not understanding much of anything today, are you?
Although not understanding things never seems to impact your prolific posting...
quote:Originally posted by Lard Tunderin' Jeezus:
You're not understanding much of anything today, are you?
Although not understanding things never seems to impact your prolific posting...
~yawn~
dw_ptbo, it's been discussed to some degree in an older thread here. From that thread (Heywood posted it, 3rd post in)
quote:Oh, and only 8.4% of lands in Alberta are controlled by corporations and individuals. The Feds control 10.6% under National Parks and held in trust in Indian reserves. The Alberta Crown owns 81%.
http://www.energy.gov.ab.ca/Org/pdfs/InfoSeries-Report4-FMT.pdf
The Alberta Energy and Utilities Board renamed recently and is once again the ercb... www.ercb.ca should work, it's the gov't regulatory site for the oil patch... Should be a decent site for research.
[ 03 July 2008: Message edited by: Noise ]
Found on: Indigenous Environmental Network
Oil Sands: First Nations Reject Latest Enbridge Pipeline Equity Offer (February 2011)
excerpt:
Enbridge has made numerous statements to national and regional media lately about its plans to have First Nations borrow money in order to purchase a small fraction of the pipeline.
"Enbridge is talking a lot about doing deals, saying Nations should be proud about taking their money," says Chief Thomas. "We've seen it before. History is full of bad deals - often made when Indigenous Nations felt they had no other choice. We have a choice and we won't sign away our future, and the safety of our waters and lands, to Enbridge. Taking cash to compromise our kids' futures is nothing to be proud of."
http://www.vancouversun.com/news/First+nations+fiercely+opposed+Northern...
Enbridge has said it has aboriginal support and it expects a majority of the nearly 50 first nations with territory along the pipeline route to sign on to its ownership offer, but only one B.C. first nation has declared its support publicly.
And when Gitxsan hereditary chief Elmer Derrick announced the nation in northwest B.C. had signed an ownership deal that would provide $7 million over a 30-year period, it sparked an immediate battle with other leaders in the community who say they don’t support the project.
Unlike in B.C., most Alberta first nations have not said whether they support or reject the 1,172-kilometre pipeline.
More than a dozen Alberta first nations have signed up as interveners in the hearings overseen by the National Energy Board, but none have issued public declarations on the pipeline project.
Contacted before Christmas, Alexis Nation leaders said they were not ready to say anything about the project.
Other first nations in Alberta — including the Horse Lake First Nation — did not respond to requests for comment.
But at least one Alberta first nation is saying no to Northern Gateway pipeline.
Driftpile First Nation chief Rose Laboucan told The Vancouver Sun that following the recent completion of a traditional land-use study, the community of 2,000 has rejected the project. About 1,000 band members live on the Driftpile reserve, west of Edmonton.
“The permanent right of way will be about a 25-metre-wide scar running through the territory, harming the plants and animals, things we rely on,” said Laboucan.
She said it is ridiculous to believe there is not going to be an oil spill.
“I understand there has to be progress. I understand they want markets outside of Canada, to Asia. But at the same time, when do we balance our Mother Earth? In my opinion, it’s in pain now,” said Laboucan.
http://www.pacificfreepress.com/news/1/10582-the-gitxsan-fight-enbridge-...
This pipeline project has been in trouble since Day 1
http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Envirnmoentalists+turn+star+power+a...