Toll roads into Toronto... Urban... Suburban... Rural... sprawl

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Ward
Toll roads into Toronto... Urban... Suburban... Rural... sprawl

Who needs the folks from the liberal urban centers?

Who needs the folks from the hinterland?

Build That Wall!

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lagatta

I don't even "get" this post, which is so beside the place. The point is to favour active and pubic transport, greatly reduce the need for private cars (ironically, also through carshare schemes) and move goods mostly by rail, not highway. As well as development that is at once greener and denser (no more single family tract homes, but lots of parks and trees).

Timebandit

I don't mind toll roads. If I have to travel somewhere via car or van in or around a major urban area, I'm happy to pay for the privilege.

Ward

I feel there's something evil lurking just below the surface of this one.

Somehow it symbolically further disconnects people.

Maybe if the province operated this one it would feel more palatable. 

 

lagatta

Such tolls exist in many countries. The important point is having a public transport alternative that runs all or most hours, and is accessible to disabled people and parents with small children in tow.

Sineed

If you think of tolls as a tax, tolls are a progressive tax because they are levied against the people using the roads, they are a tax on a polluting technology, and also a tax on relatively more affluent people who can afford vehicles. These taxes can then be used to pay for badly-needed regional transit. We need more trains!!!

Ironic seeing John Tory advocating for tolls when he almost defeated David Miller by stoking outrage against Miller's toll road proposal, forcing then-candidate Miller to promise he won't impose tolls. If it weren't for John Tory, we might have had tolls ten years ago, and be that much farther down the road towards paying for MOAR TRAINS. (And yes, I know Rob Ford would have revoked the tolls, had Miller enacted them.)

Better late than never, John Tory.

Ward

Are suburbanites more affluent? 

Now they will have to pay perhaps $1000 per year to the city that enslaves them.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

I don't know..It costs me over $800 a year to travel within the city. It costs a few hundred more if you're travelling from the suburbs and in the city.

I know that out this way they are building a new bridge connect the suburbs to the city. Why not pay for it with tolls?

Ward

I don't doubt that toll roads will be a hit.

But is the continuing support for the success and development of the megalopolis a good idea? 

cco

Sineed wrote:

If you think of tolls as a tax, tolls are a progressive tax because they are levied against the people using the roads, they are a tax on a polluting technology, and also a tax on relatively more affluent people who can afford vehicles. These taxes can then be used to pay for badly-needed regional transit. We need more trains!!!

Thing is, there's already a tax levied against people who use the roads in polluting vehicles, and it's one that requires no new collection infrastructure, targets the highest-polluting vehicles the most, and doesn't push traffic off busy roads to smaller arteries that can't handle the extra load: the gas tax. Raise that and earmark it for transit, by all means, but tolling specific arteries runs into the same problems I discussed over in the Champlain bridge thread -- not to mention that with real estate prices being what they are in major cities, Canada is gradually moving from the American "wealthy suburbs" model to the European "wealthy cities, poor suburbs" model.

Which isn't to say that there aren't interesting things that can be done with tolls -- I like the "high-occupancy toll lanes" model some American states have used, and some implementations of the congestion charge. Certainly Canada needs massive investment in transit. I'm just not sure tolling the DVP is the way to go.

Ward

cco ...i agree

Basement Dweller

push traffic off busy roads to smaller arteries that can't handle the extra load

Good point cco. This will happen, and it will disrupt parts of Downtown Toronto and the inner suburbs.

Just ask anyone who lives in New Westminster BC. Many suburban commuters avoid the new tolled Port Mann bridge and drive over the rickety ancient Pattullo. This leads to traffic gridlock in the New West urban core, making life difficult for locals, including transit users and first responders, for several hours every weekday. When the same thing happens in Toronto, Tory will take the blame and any type of tolling will be more unpopular.

I'm all for making it more expensive to drive in the city and more convenient to take transit, but this is not the way.

Paladin1

Timebandit wrote:
I don't mind toll roads. If I have to travel somewhere via car or van in or around a major urban area, I'm happy to pay for the privilege.

 

Ontarioans already pay for the privilage. $120 a year for a licence plate sticker. Plus whatever the licence costs.

 

milo204

i see tolls as unfair.  the cost is prohibitive the poorer you are, and we're already giving enough through taxes.

it's also punishing you depending on where you live.  if you are in a place which necessitates taking a toll road several times a day vs someone who lives in an area with no/less toll roads, all of a sudden you're getting screwed...

how about governments stop giving our money away and wasting it and actually invest in the maintenance of infrastructure.

That is after all, supposed to be their job

 

Basement Dweller

I guess this might sound harsh to some but if your commute is too expensive, maybe move or find a job closer to you. Not only are long single-occupant vehicle commutes bad for the environment, but they are unhealthy and waste way too much urban land. I don't see why society should continue to cater to that lifestyle so much.

Webgear

I believe we should have more tolls for all means of transport; people need to invest/be taxed more on the infrastructure they use.

This would force more local manufacturing across the country.

 

ygtbk

If the 905 bands together to toll people driving _out_ of Toronto, that would be amusing. Billy Bishop airport would get _very_ busy.

Webgear

The 519 area coded needs to place a toll against the 905 and Toronto. Close everything off south of Hwy 9.

Timebandit

Unless I have a production team and a lot of gear (in which case I'd consider a toll just part of the deal) I don't drive to and from the airport when I'm in Toronto.

Webgear

Timebandit wrote:
Unless I have a production team and a lot of gear (in which case I'd consider a toll just part of the deal) I don't drive to and from the airport when I'm in Toronto.

Does your company pay the toll or it is someone else that does?

lagatta

Obviously it is a business expense. I'm currently under the poverty line and have never driven a car in my life (obviously unlikely on the Prairies) and still, I have business expenses.

People here are making far too many excuses for ecocidal cars. Obviously people in truly rural or "bush" areas probably need motor vehicles, but they are unlikely to commute into Toronto. Never forget that cars are death.

Webgear

I was just wondering who claims the business expense for the toll roads in this case.

More public infrastructure needs to be built in the larger cities, by these urban areas need to be more self efficient with more localized industry.

 

Timebandit

Tolls and other costs, like baggage fees and parking, are part of the project budget. When I travel on personal time or on a marketing trip, I rarely drive if there's another option.

mark_alfred

User fees and tolls and consumption taxes are regressive forms of raising revenue. As far as environmental justice goes, I doubt it will lessen cars on these highways.  They'll still be packed.  It'll just be another expense as government moves from progressive taxation to these flat across the board revenue streams.

Sineed

lagatta wrote:
People here are making far too many excuses for ecocidal cars.

Indeed. I got rid of my car in 2001 and currently ride a bike to work. If my employer needs to send me on a business trip, they give me a company car, usually a hybrid, that is part of a fleet. Private car ownership is going to become obsolete in this century, IMV.

Most of the regular daily users of the Don Valley Parkway and the Gardiner are from out of town, but it is the Toronto taxpayor base that funds the upkeep of these roads. Tolling these roads moves some of the burden from the taxpayors to the actual users.

mark alfred wrote:
As far as environmental justice goes, I doubt it will lessen cars on these highways.

Some of the arguments being made here speak of individual impacts of tolls, but we need to look at the big picture, the overall advantages of road tolls. And actually they reduce congestion. And it isn't just economically and environmentally better to reduce road congestion - it also reduces the number of traffic accidents and fatalities.

 

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
User fees and tolls and consumption taxes are regressive forms of raising revenue. As far as environmental justice goes, I doubt it will lessen cars on these highways.  They'll still be packed.

That's a good point.  It's hard to argue that a road toll is an egregious financial burden on someone who's already happy to pay more to commute in their private vehicle.  If a few bucks was that important, drivers would take the TTC or the GO Train.  It's simply not cheaper to buy, fuel, insure, maintain and park a car than it is to take transit.

That said, I'm not averse to toll roads (with, I suppose, the possible exception of a $50 toll on the only road into or out of town).  As noted, the drivers on toll roads (or any roads) are the primary beneficiary of those roads, so it's hardly unfair that they should shoulder a slightly larger burden than everyone else.  The only question, I suppose, is why "this" road and not "that" road (or even ALL roads)?

mark_alfred

They've had tolls on various roads and highways in the States forever, and certainly this has not meant a lessening of the love of cars in the good ol' USofA.

Basement Dweller

It's nice to see the Milennials become less car-dependent than previous generations:

http://www.citylab.com/commute/2015/07/the-clearest-explanation-yet-for-...

Speaking as someone who grew-up in the 80s suburbia, I faced unrelenting peer pressure to get a driver's licence when I turned 16. I guess things are different now.

mark_alfred

Now Magazine put forward another idea for revenue generation:  a commercial parking levy.  https://nowtoronto.com/news/why-toronto-should-put-a-levy-on-commercial-...