Does Marriage Matter?
I know this is often a tired topic, but it’s one that’s been on my mind quite frequently lately, especially as I prepare for a number of upcoming weddings this summer (and the ridiculous costs often associated with being a guest at one of these events), and as I enter into the 7th year of a relationship, which undoubtedly means I get asked on at least a weekly basis whether or not I plan to take the plunge. (I do not, at least not anytime soon.)
The Girl with a Pen blog (http://girlwpen.com), one of my favourites, had an interesting post on the subject this morning and I’ve also been reading a number of books about the role of purity in contemporary society as of late (including Open, Unhooked, Female Chauvinist Pigs, and I’m awaiting a copy of Jessica Valenti’s latest: The Purity Myth.) Each of these seem to take a different approach to marriage, both within a feminist framework and outside of it (especially Laura Sessions-Stepp’s book Unhooked which can be remarkably anti-feminist at times.)
I don’t have a specific question or even topic of discussion, though it seems to me an open discussion on marriage (the good, bad, and the ugly) might be beneficial to this forum. Any thoughts?
No. Next question?
;)
(Kidding, kidding - please don't hurt me, I'll quit trolling now...)
Only when there's children in the plans, because that's a bigger commitment than the relationship.
Haha, it's not trolling, Michelle. I completely agree! I'm just sick of defending such a position to my marriage-hungry friends!
Even then, marriage isn't THAT important, LTJ. I mean, sure, it's important and you want to bring kids into the world when you're feeling like there's a healthy relationship happening with the person you've decided to become a parent with. But that doesn't mean you have to get married, nor does it mean you have to STAY married if it's time to move on.
However, on a purely pragmatic point, marriage confers benefits to those involved that common-law status does not automatically do, in spite of what most people think. That is a definite issue, especially for women, many of whom find that they have difficulty establishing claim to marital assets upon dissolution of the relationship. That can also be difficult to do in the event of serious illness or death. Again, these considerations are of importance to most women who usually earn less than men and/or those who are raising children.
That's not to say that wills and contracts can't be made that cover most of those bases but many don't do so or realize the legal difference between marriage and common-law relationships.
Weddings and the cost of all the bougie entrapments such as bridal shower(s), wedding shower(s), never mind all the things associated with The Day absolutely matter. To capitalism. The merging of assets, etc, and the issues Loretta mentions above also matter, but these have been constructed. Legal marriage doesn't have to have all these advantages over common law, SS relationships, etc. But it does. There are both religious and marketplace reasons as to why this is true.
Having children with someone will bind you to them for life, regardless of your relationship with that person, or their presence or absence as a parent. That's *way* more permanent than marriage. (imagine Maysie running away shrieking at this point)
"Marriage is a great institution, but I'm not ready for an institution yet." - Mae West.
I'm very cynical about marriage, and the entire marriage industry. Contradictorily, I'm a huge romantic and quite the sap if it comes down to it.
So I'll end with a joke that's neither sappy nor romantic:
What's the difference between love and herpes?
Herpes lasts forever.
I think you are all forgetting about the toasters. We will never have to buy a toaster again as long as we live and we had a wedding that specifically asked for no presents, was done on the front steps of the farm house, had our baby in arms, (who is now on the verge of towering over me FCS), and was about as unbourgie as you could get. We even made the food ourselves.
We were always opposed to marriage, but came to realize that it was important not for the couple but for others to formally recognize the couple and the committment they are making. It is just one reason I have always thought SSM is so important to be 'official'
Hell I always say that the best way to ensure a couple stays together is to get into big time debt together. Farming is particularly useful for this approach.
Does Marriage Matter... in what way and to whom?
I think that's the way to do it, Bookish Agrarian.
I have an upcoming wedding (and I hope the bride isn't a secret babbler as I vent about her wedding), where there's a bridal shower, stag and doe, bachelorette, engagement party, plus the wedding itself, all of which I've felt obligated to RSVP for. (My own fault, I know.)
When my better half and I discuss taking the plunge, we definitely don't want to do that financially to our friends and family.
I should also mention that the bridal shower was a "MONEY SHOWER!"
But what really got to me is the fact that I received the invitation to “Jrose and Guest,” even though she’s known my partner for the entire seven years we’ve been together. As always, because my partner and I are not married, it seems amongst many friends he is not recognized as my partner, simply because there is no ring on my finger.
Being in my mid-Twenties with so many people getting married around me, I seem to be confronted with the topic on a daily basis.
NO!
Hey, that's the same prize that lesbians get upon coming out.
Coincidence?
I wonder......
I think marriage matters if it matters to the couple involved -- whether same sex or opposite sex. Dan and I are married but we have lots of friends who aren't and our relationship is not seen as any more serious or committed than theirs.
Our son also has friends who live in a great variety of family configurations and they're all seen as natural and as workable as anyone else's family.
As for weddings, the craziest one I remember was one where the bride was in a tizzy because the bridesmaids' gowns, the table centrepieces and the engraving on the invitations were all supposed to be the same colour -- magenta, I think -- and something happened (can't remember what) that threw everything awry. She was hysterical.
Meanwhile, I couldn't even imagine a time when the invitations would be anywhere near the centrepieces -- but what do I know?
There are lots of toasters at charity sales. Not a coincidence.
I think whether marriage matters in terms of family etc depends on how common it is. In Québec a majority of (heterosexual) couples in childbearing years are NOT married now - we have the highest rate of shacking up on earth. But there is a problem in terms of assets - there is no such thing as "common-law" here, common law is British, and our Civil Code is French. A lot of women wind up with nothing due to such misconceptions.
But I couldn't imagine getting married unless there were some other accessory reason (immigration of either partner, problems with power of attorney etc). Just imagining a divorce on top of ghastly breakups!
I've always had zero desire to have children - or rear anyone else's - so that is not a factor for me.
Though of course I support equal rights to fall into the trap for LGBT people!
It seems to me that most people who marry do so to "pass" in the eye of others, or at least "for them", they say. I wonder...
As lagatta pointed out when I was writing this, Quebec has by far the highest proportion of unmarried heterosexual partners - but it's true many women pay a steep price upon separation.
All the more reason for promoting and valuing, instead of marriag,e something like a strong PACS (civil pact of solidarity), or civil unio,n such as what they have in Europe. I mean... you can buy a damn toaster for 29,95$.
Unfortunately, a Roman Catholic Church-driven government still limits Quebec women's economic rights in civil unions, and there is no strong enough effort afoot to change this.
“Sometimes I wonder if men and women really suit each other. Perhaps they should live next door and just visit now and then.” (Katharine Hepburn)
Which is what I do with my turtle dove.
I'd say that overall no it doesn't matter. I say that even though I'm married.
I would be as happy, married or not married and he would be too but then I'd have to come up with an reason why we did it.
So why. Hmm.. I think I'd have to go with BA comments. I treated our marriage as a celebration with friends and family and it was decidedly low pressure. I didn't do the white dress thing or want any of the other stuff that traditional goes with the wedding process. The thing was that many of my family and friends did and offered to do it. They wanted too, but I didn't expect it or ask. So I had the most amazing and beautiful flowers when I was happy to go pick some weeds from the roadside. I ended up having a cake beyond my wildest imagination, that if I had ordered myself would have cost a few months rent, when all I was going to do was bake a betty crocker special with store bought icing. The women who offered it just said, hey I'm going to make you a cake and showed up with it.
Our invites consisted of 'hey we're getting married on this day.Great excuse for a party! Come if you want. Dress as you like, we don't care and lets have some fun. Bring some food if you can'. So we ended up with people in sweats and jeans and some dressed to the nines. (this included the wedding party) It was potluck and bbq. We did make some food ourselves which consisted of aunts and cousins in the kitchen all busy busy and it was really fun. It was one of my favorite parts actually.
The music was just a stereo and CD player, which again someone offered to look after but much to my surprised people showed up with intruments that I didn't even know but they knew someone that I knew and decided to come for the fun. It didn't matter and was quite hilarious. "Hello, nice to meet you. Happy wedding day. You don't know me, but I know so and so, who knows so and so.'
I did end up doing a present registry solely because of demand. I didn't plan on doing that at all until, mostly my extended family said they'd really appreciate it because they wanted to get something that I really needed'. I made sure I had more cheap stuff then expensive fancy stuff. I will admit that getting a set of quality pots and pans that were beyond anything I could afford was pretty cool though.
I did end up having a shower but again it totally wasn't an expectation. I just got a phonecall one day from an older lady I had known for years who said she would like to do it. Are you free this day at 12pm?
So in the end I ended up having a wedding with much of the traditional elements but it really was a community and family affair. It was completely not stressful. I did very little planning and things just came together and it was a great party and get together.
I compare it to one of my sisters which was much like the one your describing JRose. She spent months upon months planning. It was so controlled to the point where there was even family fights because she wanted it all done her way that she actually turned down offers and insulted people, and on her wedding day she was so stressed out about everything being perfect, that she barely remembers it. It also cost her way, way more.
I'm pretty sure that the only thing my partner would have prefered to have done differently was bring a different date.
I agree that marriages tend to be WAY overdone. I was just trying to suggest, like ElizaQ, that is doesn't have to be. At heart a large part or me, the romantic gushy part, wants an excuse to celebrate a couple that have found each other and actually think they want to spend the rest of their lives together. It isn't marriage that is important in that, it is the recognition- so give me some other way to do that and I will be happy. Certainly as a couple that lived together for a long time before getting married and had started a planned family too not much changed the day after we had a marriage ceremony - with personally written vows - other than I couldn't figure out where that tatoo came from.
For a long time we did not even celebrate our anniversary. Although in the last few years we have a bit, but I really think that it is just an excuse to get away by ourselves for awhile.
By the way the meal we prepared was all consciously made with local food. That was something like 14 years ago which shows you just how ahead of the curve we are!
I think marriage matters if it matters to the couple involved -- whether same sex or opposite sex.
What Sharon said.
Every couple can and should work this out for themselves. If they can't agree, then it may be a sign that they aren't right for each other.
It's the outside pressure -- from friends, family and society -- that tends to warp peoples' perceptions of whether it is important or not.
We also had great fun at our wedding. We got married in the evening with only immediate family there. We then had dinner at a nice restaurant with a few more of the extended family and a couple of close friends.
The next day, we put our wedding duds back on and had an open house. All the food and decorating and flowers were done by friends and it really was very informal, casual and memorable. (I too know people who can't remember one detail of their wedding days.)
This reminds me of the story of some friends. They had a private wedding and dinner and then decided to go bar hopping afterwards, still in their wedding duds. Every bar they went into served the couple free drinks. I have often wondered if I should try that some time, but then I have a lot of Scottish blood in me.
I agree that marriages tend to be WAY overdone. I was just trying to suggest, like ElizaQ, that is doesn't have to be. At heart a large part or me, the romantic gushy part, wants an excuse to celebrate a couple that have found each other and actually think they want to spend the rest of their lives together. It isn't marriage that is important in that, it is the recognition- so give me some other way to do that and I will be happy.
Yeah that's really what I experienced. The people around me were excited and it was fun. It really wasn't just about me but about everyone who participated because they chose too. I actually had a problem being at the center of it. It was a weird place to be actually. I swear that some people were more excited then I was. I didn't plan to do anything fancy with my hair except wear part of the headpiece that my grandmother wore at her wedding but on the day of I was whisked into the bathroom by a bunch of women who insisted that it be special. I just went with the flow. :) My whole wedding was pretty much me going with the flow. I was just going along for the ride.
My biggest concern was whether there would be enough food because I really wasn't sure how many people were going to show up. I did make some contigency plans just in case, with a couple of people set to run to the grocery store if needed. Boy did I ever not have to worry about that. The most stressful part was trying to find another table to put everything that showed up on and figuring out what to do with it all when the party was done. A lot of people went home with really awesome doggy bags. :D I'm not even sure how everything got cleaned up either. It just magically happened somehow. LOL
My answer would have been no, but it matters a lot to Citizenship and Immigration Canada
I wouldn’t say I’m optimistic about marriage in general because I think a lot people marry the wrong people for the wrong reasons without having a clue if they want the same things cause they are just so frickin in love! But I like my marriage a lot and I had a great time with all the things surrounding the wedding bougie or not. Contradictorily, I’m the least romantical, sap out there, I’m actually quite cynical about all the bleedin’ romance involved in getting engaged and married and the sappy vows blech! One of the many practical reasons we got married was so people would shut up asking when we where going to get married. ;) Didn’t help, now they won’t relent about my aging ovaries and frozen womb. Pick your poison people. Marriage or babies.
Wow! Who am I kidding except for the engagement party we had all of the above. What I learned however was that I was getting some of those events no matter if I cared it or not. I didn’t care if I had a shower but my matron of honour cared. A LOT. She made me super cute little sandwiches with no crusts, it was fun and she was happy, win-win for me. The stag was a giant event which my husband enjoyed but I think was as much about the other guys getting out without their spouses (some of our friends don’t have the most evolved marriages/partnerships and stags are always a “free pass” for a night out – it also seems to make people more willing to babysit so the Moms can go out too).
I get where you’re coming from but again I learned that people like weddings, they like being a part of it, humans like to celebrate good news and give gifts. Problem is when you have 5 weddings in one summer (it get’s expensive and hairy then and it’s hard to say no). I didn’t want to register anywhere - I didn’t really need anything but I was told it was helpful to people out of town or traveling for another country, or who couldn’t make it to the wedding to purchase something and have it delivered. Who knew? Also, I had to telling the boys to dial the stag back as we aren’t all trust fund babies and some of the wives would like a new dress so quite spending all their money. I felt bad, my hubby wasn’t supposed to know about the details but I was hearing all the $$$ details of the night from the girlfriends/wives and it was causing a lot of problems in their respective homes so I had to be a bit of a hard ass about it and I needed him to be the one to dial it back. I wanted all our friends to have a good time not go broke over one weekend. Seriously, I drove myself to the venue and took a cab to the pub ( yes I went to our local in my dress and drank cheap pink bubbly) after the event so no I really didn’t think the guys needed a stretch hummer for the stag.
That is just crap. Maybe that’s how you kids ;) are doing things now but I’m not much older than you really and that is just friggin’ rude. Single folk get “and guest” and even then some of them I knew they would be bringing a specific mutual friend as their “date” so I added their guests name to the invite. I have friends who might never get married but they are my friends and if a “partner” has been around for awhile or they live together I friggin know their name, likely they are my friend too right and should use their name - it’s the friend thing to do and it’s just damn good manners.
Marriage matters an awful lot to gay and lesbians who can’t get married. Marriage when the church isn’t involved and 2 people just want to be a family of their own for their own reasons is just fine. I just don’t think it’s the bedrock of our society or anything. I know too many people who marry the wrong people, at the wrong time and for the wrong reasons. To many people get the fever. That tends to happen when people let religion and morality and other weird shit influence their decisions.
Some weird things about society and marriage though – go car shopping with an engagement ring better service. Go buy a condo get better service. Very irritating that society assumes a better level of commitment and ability to pay for things when you’re married – I have less money now! And I’m the same person I was when we just lived together. Getting married really changed nothing thank jebus, I married him cause I really liked us and a change might not have been so good – it’s just really nice to celebrate the sense of satisfaction with life and our choices with our friends and I love a good party, ti was a really, really good party.
I do think for a lot of women marriage offers protection for those women most at risk. Those who won’t know how to fight for themselves or have the resources to should a relationship end - they could lose everything but society should find ways to correct that so people can get married for better reasons.
my wife and I had lived together for about 4 years and got married so that I could easily get a green card to practice medicine in the states. It would ahve been a major pain in the ass if I weren't married to an American. We probably would ahve gotten married eventually (before we had kids) but getting me the landed immigrant status certainly sped up our decision.
I got married about 18 months ago to a woman I'd been with for seven years. We tried to own marriage: we did it somewhat for legal reasons--it facilitated visa applications, and somewhat because we wanted a public symbol of our love. Also, we wanted a big party with all our friends and family. We got that, assuming that it wouldn't change our relationship. I don't think it did (we eventually got married in a backyard, prefaced with a baseball game and finished with lots of wine and beer and appetizers). But the first thing you notice when you try to have a progressive, call it feminist, wedding, is that it's changed not because of how you look at it, but because of how other people look at you as you get married and after it happens.
First, it was the typical problem of how family members think your wedding should be, even as they say that it should be your day, done the way you want. 'Remember,' my future-mother-in-law confided in us, 'you'll want the minister to say grace over the meal'. Um, I don't know how to start with what's wrong with that statement, I want to say. Then, after you're married, no matter how much you say that it doesn't change your relationship (and, in the main, I don't think it did) it does change the way you interact publicly as a couple. The fact that I can get work off, or extra sympathy from someone as diurnal as the butcher, simply by saying that I have a dinner date with 'my wife' is massive. Plus, as a 30 year-old who associates regularly with people five years or so younger than me, just by saying that I'm 'married' depicts me in a whole different light than if I simply lived with my long-term partner. It has nothing to do with the way I conceive of marriage and everything to do with the way other people think about it. We sang Beach Boys songs ('God Only Knows', in fact) and wrote our own ceremony and vows, but that kind of radicalism doesn't come out when someone spots the band on your ring finger.
So I would say that marriage does matter, in that your relationship with the general public will change--and that has to change the way you look at each other--but that doesn't necessarily mean that your relationship will be any less 'real' or unique, or unconventional. I still have my own interpretation of marriage--it might be different from the one I had 18 months agp, but it's still miles away from the one I see in Cosmo and Bridal magazine, and in the failed marriages of my friends' parents. (There, but for the grace of god, etc...)
Even then, marriage isn't THAT important, LTJ. I mean, sure, it's important and you want to bring kids into the world when you're feeling like there's a healthy relationship happening with the person you've decided to become a parent with. But that doesn't mean you have to get married, nor does it mean you have to STAY married if it's time to move on.
I think that the staying married thing is one case where marriage shouldn't matter when a lot of the time it does. In the case of marriage in general I agree with Sharon:
I think marriage matters if it matters to the couple involved -- whether same sex or opposite sex.
But when it comes time that the people have grown in different directions and aren't in the place to make eachother happy clinging onto the relationship, just because they want to stay married, usually just causes harm for themselves, their partners and any children or other family that may be involved.
Marriage certainly matters a lot less than it used to.
In the olden days, divorce really wasn't that much of an option because the entire community shunned you. While that could leave people feeling trapped, it also gave you a sense that there was a person in your life that you could share anything with, and you could still know that they would be there with you forever and would never betray your trust.
We no longer have that, and thanks to the prevalence of divorce, marriage means little more than a relationship that is slightly harder to disentangle oneself from.
But for those who do care about marriage, it means a lifelong commitment whereby you put your partner's interests at least on par with your own, and stick with them no matter what. You don't leave because things become inconvenient or less sexy.
Besides which, there are only two times that all your friends and family will do their utmost to come and see you - the other one is your funeral. There is no other day when you will be surrounded by so many people that love you.
Well, I'm a girl who had three prior common-law husbands before tying the knot with this one at 32 years of age. I did it because I know from experience that no matter how great things are at the outset, for me, there are big problems that develop down the line -- it's a sexist institution after all, with or without the vows -- and I made a deliberate choice to work through it this time since we were going to have kids. So I guess that's about as far from romantic as you can get. I think it was the right choice for me, and it was his preference too albeit for much different reasons.
As for the wedding, we eloped, on our own, in Louisiana. I wore a jeans skirt and white t-shirt, with lace for the photos -- my mother-in-law had been saving a matching frame. The ceremony wasn't religious, I'm pretty sure it wasn't even legal and we never had it registered here afterwards but we do consider ourselves married. I still wear the band when I can find it; I like it, and it comes in very handy at work in some situations. We had a big party afterwards in a restaurant just for immediate family (friends would have also meant inviting dozens of aunts, uncles and cousins) and that was a wonderful day. Thus I managed to avoid any bridal showers and this also set the stage for adamantly refusing to have any part of any baby showers, except a big surprise party they threw at my work because they knew I would have nothing to do with it if they asked. But that was fun too; all we did was eat cake.
Contrast that with two of my sisters-in-law, one of whom paid $120,000 for her wedding and honeymoon and felt that was cheap and inadequate in comparison to the other who spent A HUNDRED AND SEVENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS for a honeymoon in Europe and a reception for several hundred people at the exclusive golf course of which her husband is a member. So that was an "important" occasion in a whole different respect. Both of these women, their husbands and other family members have undoubtedly reaped financial benefits well in excess of their outlay from the connections forged at these events.
The idea of a moderately-sized party with friends and family, great music, and food definitely appeals to my partner and I and I think once we’re financially stable (or at least more so) we will take the plunge.
I do worry slightly about how to align my feminist beliefs with arranging a wedding, for example: What’s more important – The fact that I think a father “giving” his daughter away to her new husband is horrifyingly patriarchal, or the fact that it would definitely mean a hell of a lot to my Dad … It’s little things like that which I foresee being at least slightly problematic.
A main argument in Laura Session Stepp’s horrible book Unhooked is that young women don’t value love anymore, which I find almost impossible to reconcile with my life as I see so many young women rushing to the altar.
Then again, Stepp also said: "Admit it, the bar scene is a guy thing. Tying one on can be fun occasionally. Just don't let it take over your social life. Organize weekend getaways and other events to bring people together. Bake cookies, brownies, muffins. Ask your girlfriends for assistance. Guys will do anything for homemade baked goods."
So, really – Who cares what she thinks!I could use a toaster. . .
I do worry slightly about how to align my feminist beliefs with arranging a wedding, for example: What’s more important – The fact that I think a father “giving” his daughter away to her new husband is horrifyingly patriarchal, or the fact that it would definitely mean a hell of a lot to my Dad … It’s little things like that which I foresee being at least slightly problematic.
Yeah that's one that I had a problem with. It was important to my Dad, though he wasn't insistant or anything. I ended up compromising and changing it slightly. Both Mom and Dad walked with me and instead of giving me away we looked at it in the light of two families joining together rather then one giving up to another and said words to that affect. Mom and Dad were the representatives of my family.
Actually, I liked the wedding in the movie Rachel Getting Married. Looked fun, relaxed, with a focus on the vows exchanged rather than the ceremony.
I think it would be fun to plan a wedding for exactly the kind of celebration you want.
Great movie, btw. Great acting.
jrose, I know of weddings where both bride and groom have been accompanied by both sets of parents (if that's appropriate and comfortable) with no mention or perception of "giving" and "receiving" but simply as escorting -- marking a rite of passage. I think it can be quite touching.
I think that's the way to do it, Eliza Q. When we've talked about it, we've talked about somehow finding a way to incorporate both sets of parents. I like how you put it -- "two families joining together."
I love that idea, Sharon!
If I remember correctly, and I suppose I could check the video, Ms.C. was "given away" by both of her parents.
I seem not to have seen ElizaQ's post before I wrote mine about the parental role. Sorry about that!
I think a wedding ceremony can be quite meaningful. The priest who married us knew us both well and he added some beautiful words about women into the ceremony -- not the usual corny stuff about women being the heart and soul of the home etc. -- but more about strength and equality and partnership. (Yes, I know, he should have been advocating as much for his Church.
) We both felt good about what he said.
When it came to responses, he asked us together, as in, "Sharon and Dan, do you take each other ..." I had never heard that before.
I knew it was important to my Dad too even though he never said as much and I knew my Mom wanted it that way too. And retrospectively thank God he was there to haul me down the “isle”. Didn’t dawn on me to get a runner for the grass so every step I took my heels sunk into the soft grass and I got stuck. Lucky for me the Pumpkins was playing very loudly so it drowned out my giggling as I told my Dad to drag me down the aisle. We didn’t have seating for our guest during the ceremony either, it was quite short so everyone got to gather round quite close to us so our families got to be right up next to us without having to be lined up all neat and tidy or stuck sitting on one side or the other of a venue. I find that whole “Bride or Groom side” of seating at more traditional weddings annoying.
Technically I’m their for both of them aren’t I?
See I don’t think that’s the fault of “marriage” as much as religious/traditionalist morals about religious marriage. I think a pragmatic feminist approach to marriage means divorce is an acceptable option if things go off the rails. We talked about that kind of thing before we got married. I also have a couple friends who got pre-nups regarding potential children and what would happen in the advent of a divorce, not about financial assests. What type of schooling, splitting up custody and all that stuff.
I would have liked to have been invited to that! Did you actually play baseball or got to a game?
I like that too. That’s what the “minister” spoke about at our wedding friends and family and the importance of that and nary a peep about God. Yes, I hired a minister – couldn’t track down anyone else to do it and do it fairly cheap. She was lovely, and cool with us being atheists.
I've always found it interesting that when the topic of marriage comes up, the wedding is so central to the discussion. For me, the wedding's a day - a really cool day, nonetheless - but it's what comes before and after that actually matters.
For me, marriage is important. Before the blond guy and I got married we'd already started a family, had the house and dog, had been through a couple of stressful enough situations to show what we were made of and to work out how this partnership was going to function. Getting married was both a public declaration of that partnership and making it a legally recognized partnership, which was something we both wanted. A declared commitment on all levels is how I'd describe it.
That said, if these things are not important to you as a couple, then don't do it. It's a personal decision. I have friends who've been common-law for nearly 20 years and their marriage is as solid as can be. I also don't think anyone should have the right to question, pressure or meddle in these decisions. Wouldn't the world be a nicer place if people understood boundaries?
When it does come down to the wedding itself, there are customs that have their origins in patriarchy but that doesn't necessarily make it patriarchal in its current context. Social customs and rituals are part of who we are - we should be able choose to take part in them without somebody else questioning our "cred" as feminists when we live it day to day in so many more tangible ways.
If I want to wear a white dress, dammit, I'll wear one. If I want my dad to walk me down the aisle, that's my call. If I want to eschew bouquet tossing... You get the drift.
As in the Smashing Pumpkins, Scout? If so, good call!
Well said, Scout.
I've been married twice. The first one was a big mistake, I was way too young and priorities and future directions changed for both of us. The religious aspect - mostly on my ex's fundy side of the family - complicated the dissolution of the partnership, which made it so much more fraught. Spare us the dogma, I say.
It's interesting to see the discussion around marriage mattering in a financial sense because cohabitation doesn't carry the same laws when it comes to division of assets.
Personally, as a woman who has left both a marriage and a common-law relationship, I've been way, WAY more hurt financially by the ending marriage than the ending common-law relationship. True, much of that is custody. But I think we would have been divorced years ago (before the custody stuff came up) if we'd just had the money to pay lawyers to get it over with.
I can't see myself ever putting myself in such a financially vulnerable position again as getting married. On the other hand, it sure is nice to see lots of "happily-ever-after" stories in this thread. Gives me hope for humanity. :)
I was thinking about this topic for some reason in the barn this morning. Remembering two friends who after years together were able to become 'official' through a marriage ceremony. I remembered how proud I felt at that moment as a Canadian that I could be there to witness this union being made 'official' and to have my children see it as no big deal. And yes I cried like a little baby, just like so many others in the room. So in that case marriage was very important as it signaled that this couple was no different than all the hetro couples they attended weddings and other celebrations for. Marriage is along with everything else a symbol, and sometimes symbols can have real power for good too.
Ha! I worry about happy today! And maybe tomorrow! Ever after I might not find him so amusing anymore so let's not get ahead of ourselves.
Yep, it was "Today", I so love the begining of that song! Lyrics aren't actually so romantic though.
I wish more people spent more time on the "before" so that the after was what they expected. Getting married doesn't fix jack shit people!
Great tune, Scout. We walked down the 'aisle' (actually the lawn of my in-laws' backyard) to a friend playing Lou Reed's 'Perfect Day' on the piano. Later, he led a rousing sing-a-long to 'God Only Knows' halfway through the ceremony.
We stripped all the sexism out of our wedding as well which can be a bit challenging when getting married in the Catholic church.
Surprisingly, the Catholic church actually discourages the father 'giving away' the bride.
Homilies that include such phrases as 'a silent wife is a Gift from God', didn't go over too well. Instead, we scrapped all the suggested homilies and found an obscure passage free of sexism.
I had a great wedding. (The life afterwards? Not so great.) I'm sure I've described it somewhere in the babble archives, but my wedding was in a church, and we had a potluck reception in the church hall afterwards. :) We asked people to bring a dish for the reception instead of a gift, but they passed the hat and gave us money as well, plus a few lovely gifts.
As for tradition - I kind of went traditional, although of course I left out the horrid sexist stuff from the vows like promising to "obey". I bought a second-hand dress for a song, got it altered a bit, and bought a new veil which went to my knees. I actually wore the veil over my face until the kiss. My father walked me down the aisle because I knew he'd want to, and I knew my mother didn't feel strongly about it either way. I think she would have felt a bit weird walking me down the aisle with my father since they'd been divorced for years at that point.
We did a traditional church wedding service, again with the sexist stuff removed, although it was a relatively new service book the pastor was working from, so it didn't have much in the way of sexist crap in it. Sometimes I wonder now what the newest ones are like since there's been a right-wing, fundamentalist misogynist renaissance in the evangelical churches since then.
I had one maid of honour, a woman I knew from church, and there was one best man. I crammed as many of my favourite hymns as possible into the service because I love singing and I love hymns.
Anyhow, it was a really nice day - no stress because everyone just brought potluck and we had a nice lunch (it was a morning wedding). I did the "traditional" things like white dress, veil, father walking down aisle, religious service, but it felt informal enough that everyone was quite comfortable and happy. Some people told me it was the nicest wedding they'd ever attended.
We chucked out a lot of the traditional stuff surrounding the wedding. I hate bridal showers, and I didn't have one. The blond guy didn't want a stag, so he didn't have one. None of the nonsense about not seeing each other on the day of - we got up together like usual, he looked after Ms B when I went to get my hair done and then we had lunch together. I nearly wound up carrying Ms B instead of my bouquet, but she decided to stop howling once we got to the church.
I did wear a (second-hand!) white dress and we did have a church wedding, but a non-traditional ceremony and we wrote our own vows. The reading was a Shakespearean sonnet. My dad is dead, so I took the aisle solo -- and missed him more acutely in that first step than I could ever have imagined. I'd have chucked a trainload of feminist cred to have had him there.
We had a laid-back reception in my mother's back yard, which has a huge deck and a gorgeous flower garden. We had hamburgers and saskatoon pie and a traditional Norwegian wedding cake made by my MIL and SIL.
It was lovely. But we've packed a whole lot more wonderful into the nearly 11 years that followed it, so it just sort of fits in with the rest.
My dad is dead, so I took the aisle solo -- and missed him more acutely in that first step than I could ever have imagined. I'd have chucked a trainload of feminist cred to have had him there.
Three months before my wedding I was in the hospital waiting room with my dad in the critical care unit. He wasn't at 100% at the wedding but I did chuck the trainload of feminist cred to be enormously grateful he was there to walk me down the isle.
The only reason that marriage matters these days is legal. If you end up ship wrecked on love beach or one of you passes on, the division of property issues are a bit clearer than they'd be if you weren't married. It's just the way it is under our existing laws...and yes they should be changed to reflect reality.
Aside from that, the only reason marriage matters is if it matters to you.
I've been through it twice...first time rather "non-tradtional"...backyard "house wedding" and the second time more traditional...the "church thing"...although the minister was a bit lefty ;)
Agreed. Another legal requirement for marriage mentioned by myself and a few others in this thread is for the purposes of immigration and work for a non-Canadian spouse. Marriage is extremely significant to Citizenship and Immigration Canada.
Our wedding was a morning one like Michelle's. Good to get it out of the way and get on with the rest of the day.
My stag was a quiet supper followed by guys playing blitz chess in an Irish themed pub.
My ex-husbands stag they went out to a bar (he was very much against going to a strip club because he didn't like the way they were systamatically abusive towards women) but I had gotten a call around 10 - he wants to come back with his friends because he had just bought a few new video games they were talking about and they really wanted to play them. I had to study for an exam so I went to the back bedroom and the stag party of 20 or so guys came back and played till the wee hours of the morning.
I thought it was hilarious that most women wonder what their guys did for the stag but my fiancée was at home for most of his!
My common law partner and I are both sociophobes who absolutely hate the idea of being the center of attention in even minor ways, the process of a wedding seems like an unbearable nightmare.
I think it's a useless and false institution, and oh so reactionary and backwards. I believe there are couples who will remain together for long periods (perhaps even the rest of their lives - the thought of not being alone in old age is particularly comforting to those of us who never did have children, for instance) and couples who will not, but the whole idea that some absurd ceremony is going to (or even should) alter what will be for any particular couple is just nonsense.
If there are commitments involved, the only ones that ought to matter - and I think in the end, the only ones that will matter - are between the partners themselves, and they don't need church, state, and community to be involved in the "deal" to somehow make it more serious or binding. The way I think about it, if it got to the point where religion or community or social forces were the only thing keeping a marriage together, will it really last? Should it? I don't think so.
I really do find the laws surrounding marriage, and the way it is viewed by society, is highly discriminatory. Why should a couple be treated differently based on a very private and intimate agreement they have or do not have with each other? Who else's business is it, and why should anyone derive any external advantage from such an agreement? The status of common law partners and married partners ought to be fully harmonized in legal terms. It should be possible for any couple to derive the same benefits such as taxes etc.
As far as women getting their share of assets in divorce etc ... well that's rubbish too. If women haven't already achieved general workplace equality with men (I know most of the really high rollers are still men, but down here, women do seem to be actually earning more and employed in more professional and lucrative jobs - just anecdotal observation of my peers, mind you) then they ought to be preparing for the day when they do and abandoning the crutches that were used to prop them up in an era when they were highly restricted in education and employment, that's what alimony and divorce settlements were intended for and that's the system that produced them and for which they were designed. It may provide advantage in certain cases but they are (despite appearances) patriarchal constructs that presume and, more importantly, endorse male supremacy in economic life.
As far as women getting their share of assets in divorce etc ... well that's rubbish too. If women haven't already achieved general workplace equality with men (I know most of the really high rollers are still men, but down here, women do seem to be actually earning more and employed in more professional and lucrative jobs - just anecdotal observation of my peers, mind you) then they ought to be preparing for the day when they do and abandoning the crutches that were used to prop them up in an era when they were highly restricted in education and employment, that's what alimony and divorce settlements were intended for and that's the system that produced them and for which they were designed. It may provide advantage in certain cases but they are (despite appearances) patriarchal constructs that presume and, more importantly, endorse male supremacy in economic life.
I think you should check your legalities, here is a quote from a child support thread
Support is decided much the same way. In fact when I was divorcing my husband he lost his job, if he hadn't been able to find another one I would have had to pay him support. However when we started the divorce procedings I was a staying at home because we were going to have children so if I hadn't been able to find a job he would have had to pay me support until I did. In the end we both found jobs with about equal pay so neither of us paid support to the other.
Alimony is purely legal. It is the same as if a worker was laid off from his job he should get a severance package. Alimony is when the couple decides that as part of their partnership agreement one will foresake employment, take lesser employment or not advance as far in their career for the partnership (maybe a move across country or across province or one to stay home with the children). The one that stands to economically benefit from this can't suddenly end the partnership and say, oops sorry, you are on your own now. In the same vein you can't say that the economically disadvantaged one should not be able to claim if they end the partnership because then you are creating a situation for that person where they are being economically abused by the system - ie they can't leave because they have foresaken their economic independence or semi independence for the partnership. They have to provide support to either continue the original agreement or until a new agreement can be worked out.
Well, when you put it that way, it just sounds so ... sensible. At least where someone's employment has been impacted. I think I'll have to reconsider my views.
Jessica Valenti: My big feminist wedding
As founder of the website feministing.com, I have written online about everything from vibrators to the form of birth control I use, but I had been worried about blogging about our engagement. When you address personal issues, especially those so fraught with politics, you are sure to cause a stir. But all of a sudden, touching on the woes of feminist wedding planning did not seem such a bad idea. My feminist friends and community online took the announcement well - with the exception of several commenters who felt my getting married was antithetical to feminism. One, with the username looselips, wrote that she was disappointed that I "seem to find flaws with patriarchy, but fail to find a way to bring it down". But mostly there were plenty of congratulations and hundreds of comments from other feminists on the ways their political beliefs had informed their weddings and marriages. EmilyKennedy wrote about her purple wedding dress, lack of a diamond ring and her decision not to have a "crap-tastic white cake". ShifterCat told of a friend's wedding where, as a small memento, every guest received "a little scroll saying that a donation has been made in their name to Habitat For Humanity". Another reader told me about a website - offbeatbride.com - that was a good alternative to the frou-frou sites that seem to dominate the wedding-based blogosphere. This was the kind of advice I was looking for.
Emboldened, I blogged again - this time about the ways I was incorporating feminism into the wedding. I wrote about keeping my last name and buying a not-quite white dress from a store that gives all the money to charity. I blogged about the struggle Andrew and I had getting engaged in the same month that California overturned same-sex marriage rights. We had actually discussed not getting married until everyone could; instead, we decided to use our impending marriage as a way to talk about same-sex marriage among our friends and family. In our engagement announcement, for example, we asked anyone considering getting us a gift to instead donate to an organisation fighting for same-sex marriage rights. It felt good, feminist even, to write about an institution so wrought with sexism and discuss ways to make it our own.
Valenti's experience is so close to my own I feel like I might have accidentally married her. Except the woman I'm married to doesn't have major feminist blog (that I'm aware of).
Bit off topic, but...I'm pro wedding, but with some reservations with regard to the obligations placed on prospective guests. And I find that those obligations vary wildly from wedding to wedding.
I recently attending a very small, "indie"-style, minimalist wedding. 40 people, small ceremony plus a meal, non-religious. At first glance it seemed to be a very low-key and informal affair. But in reality placed heavy travel, financial, time, and "help the bridge and groom" demands on those who attended. By the end it proved to be extremely onerous, despite what it pretended to be on the outside, especially compared to your stereotypical big white-dress wedding. Those sort of weddings I have trouble supporting, big or small, fancy or not. A wedding should be a happy occasion for your guests, not one that places undue stress on them to the point of causing them grief.
But there's something about weddings (maybe not necessarily marriage) that are really neat. It's one of the few life events that you can easily share with a number of different people.
Especially coming from a family that came over in the 50s, I know that my wedding will be very important to my grandparents and the sacrifices they made coming to Canada. The chance to see their grandkids, the first fully Canadian generation, all grown up, being part of a big occasion, moving to a new stage of their life, all that would mean a lot to them. I don't feel obligated to have a wedding - I just know it would be a recognition that their hard work, dedication, perseverance and parenting have paid off.
I've never believed in the big day being all about the bridge and the groom; rather, for me and my family, the weddings has always been the opposite - all about the guests. It's the best chance to give a big 'thank you' to all those people who have had an influence/role in the lives of the bride and the groom up until that point. I find there are very few life events that are intimate enough to allow a large-ish group of people to share in it all together.
Ah, you beat me to it, Catchfire! I was just on my way to post it. I haven't had the chance to read it yet, but I'll take a look over the weekend. Jezabel had a quick critique on it today, as well.
it struck me that i really ought to go and read about everybody's background before jumping into conversations at babble, by reading participants profiles. that might help me to understand different people better.
in any case, i thought it was important to put a note here on this subject. what is most important is being clear about commitment, or lack thereof, in any kind of relationship. in 3D world its usually easier to be clear, but with websites, things need to be spelled out more. personally, i am of the opinion that commitments need to be respected by community members, and people need to be publicly clear about their commitments, so that these can be respected.
Idk I dont wanan get married if sum1 wants to happiness to them. Some of the institutions seem weird to me esp for like the christian marriage esp compared to the rest of the world. Like a interesting thing is most of the world wears white as a color of mourning lol I can see myself maybe getting married when older I guess you get to a point where u like this the one or w.e but yea some of the stuff makes sense like the thank you and stuff but if i got married now lol wouldnt even happen son
" I was ready to throw in the towel on so-called domestic bliss."
She should have. IMV, he was passively aggressively setting the patriarchial tone for their future together and she accepted it.
Further, his renewed interest in wedding planning under the auspices of "recognising that it wasn't just important for the sake of my sanity, but as a political statement too" is beyond my comprehension as a feminist action. IMV, if true equality were of any interest to him, he should/would have been participating for that reason alone, as opposed to saying essentially he needed to participate for a "political statement"!
What political statement does his participation in planning make now, after his ignoring the planning for months? I would say it doesn't make one. He recognized his need to appease her because she was thinking about throwing in the towel, and that is about it.
I have met many men, who thought what a coup it would be for their ego to marry a feminist, and then make sure she conforms to partiarchy for "love" of them.