Don't Rape, Part I — Society teaches 'Don’t get raped' rather than 'Don’t rape'
When Stevens reads articles about drunk driving, the police are quoted telling people to stop drinking and driving. But when she reads articles about sexual assault, there is no warning telling would-be attackers not to rape. Instead, the authorities tell potential victims to take precautions.
... In a Metro News article from March 19, 2010, Dalhousie University spokesperson Billy Comeau told students to “be aware of their surroundings and to take all precautions when they are out travelling” in response to a man grabbing a 19-year-old female student from behind in Halifax’s South End. In a Chronicle Herald article from May 14, 2010, a prosecutor told parents to “watch what their children are doing, both online and within the proximity of their house and outside the house,” in response to a Halifax woman allegedly luring a girl over the Internet and sexually assaulting her.
“Rather than always putting out the messages of ‘don’t walk alone’ or ‘don’t drink’ or ‘don’t talk to strangers’—all of those things—we need to say ‘don’t sexually assault,’” Stevens declares.
As a result of these misplaced messages, we say, "She shouldn’t have been walking home alone late at night," or, "She shouldn’t have worn a short skirt," rather than, "He shouldn’t have raped her."
... Eighty-four per cent of people over the age of 15 who are sexually assaulted are women, according to the 2009 Status of Women Canada report. More than 90 per cent of those accused are men.
Sexual assault is a social problem, Stevens says, with lingering patriarchal structures at the root of offenses by men toward women.
Don't Rape, Part I— Society teaches 'Don’t get raped' rather than 'Don’t rape'
I think it should be both, with a heavier emphasis on 'dont rape'.
There will always be scum and situations in which you can find yourself vulnerable and you should be cognizant of that, whether it be for a mugger, a con artist, identity theft or sexual assault. This telling people things to avoid (real examples like walking down the middle of a dark street and walk confidently etc) or to act to not look like a victim as well as signs to recognize in someone who may be dangerous for you.
Aside from that there has to be a extensive pervasive campaign to work on changing the views of women commonly given to biys growing up and to men in the world in which they live. There was none of that for me growing up. A smattering of dont date rape when I was in university but nothing before that and not much even at York (where I went) even tho I was there during a series of rapes at the university and while the university had a good womans studies degree (I went to a lot of the courses, they were well done, Prof Johanna Stuckey was interesting)
Yes! Should teach people not to murder as well.
*rolls eyes* We actually do that already. Society teaches the sanctity of life and not killing from a early age and does it all the time, even through shows like CSI.
We do NOT when it comes to things like sexual assault which is almost always depicted as violent sex from a stranger or crazy SO or relative and never addresses all the nuances of actual sexual assault
A polite reminder: this is in the feminism forum.
Dont warn turtle off Writer, they could learn something here
When Stevens reads articles about drunk driving, the police are quoted telling people to stop drinking and driving. But when she reads articles about sexual assault, there is no warning telling would-be attackers not to rape. Instead, the authorities tell potential victims to take precautions.
That's because society holds the belief that drunk drivers might listen to reason. Is there reason to think that the same kind of adverts, "don't rape because someone will get hurt" would be effective in decreasing the rate of this crime?
The point that the author, and writer, are trying to make, is that in no other crime is the focus on the victim or target of the attacker/ perpetrator. In no other crime, or in police advisories to prevent a crime (such as drunk driving), is there NO attention paid to the behaviour of the person who is actually doing the illegal behaviour.
Only for rape and sexual assault.
I'd ask why that is, but it's rhetorical, and this thread is already not going in the greatest direction.
And with my mod hat on I will repeat what writer said and advise all men to remember that this is the feminism forum.
As If http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGnGPAZcsqE
How about adverts 500_apples, stating rapists are sick fucks
I agree we should be getting the message out that rape is unacceptable, but it's obviously a larger message that encompasses a more humanitarian form of living. When every day we are raping each other for money, raping animals for their body parts to eat and wear and use, raping the earth for her "resources" etc, raping other humans around the world for their land and labour etc., it is not at all surprising that men and women rape each other here at home as well. The problem will never be solved until we deal with the general level of humanity in our society.
That being said i think anyone who is sick enough to rape someone may be immune to messages of "don't rape", so in that case it makes sense to tell people to stay out of, or leave potentially abusive relationships and stay away from creepy family members. Seems to make sense to me.
milo you ever met a man who thinks he never rapes, as it is his right to fuck whomever he wants whenever ants, and that nobody ever told him it was wrong to do so?
I have
Why broaden the definition of rape to mean something other than the intent of the thread?
People would only be as immune to the message as they are ignorant. Directing the message at the perpetrator seems to make eminent sense. Stephens was not suggesting that all messaging to the targets of sexual assault be stopped but that the main focus be on the perpetrators. Since that's not being done, there's a lot of catch up to do.
I cannot stress enough that this thread is in the feminism forum, so any more men who want to wax philosophically about rape should refrain. You'd do well to listen to writer, remind and other babbler women who choose to post here.
milo204 wrote:That being said i think anyone who is sick enough to rape someone may be immune to messages of "don't rape", so in that case it makes sense to tell people to stay out of, or leave potentially abusive relationships and stay away from creepy family members. Seems to make sense to me.
milo, the point is that rape and rape culture is normalized in Canada--it's not done by "sickos," it's done by "normal" men everyday--by fathers, bosses, boyfriends, husbands, associates, college buddies and co-workers. We should change that culture by focussing on the rapists, not the victims.
i agree, the culture of rape is normalized here and very much a defining character of our society, i.e raping first nations of their land and rights for hundreds of years. But the crime is normalized precisely because we can't talk about how we rape the earth, most of it's population etc. I think the people least likely to ever sexually assault someone are people who are aware of things like that.
except we live in a society that says take what you can get away with, screw everyone else, men are this, women are that, etc. The less humanistic the society, the higher incidence of rape.
With that in mind, what i mean is are the kind of men that would actually force themselves on someone even going to pay attention to a message of "don't rape"? they're oblivious or don't care about the harm it will cause to another person, which is why they can do it in the first place. Anyone who has a drop of compassion would never do that. I have no idea (beyond making the society more humanistic) what to do to prevent rape from happening, and by all means it's worth a shot-it certainly can't hurt!- i just dont how effective it would be in actually preventing rape from happening.
The kinds of men who would do this often don't really know what they are doing, because our society has normalized the behaviour and dehumanized and objectified women. These kinds of men are anarchist activists who work for the liberation of East Timor, for example. These kinds of men are not some kind of special, easy-to-identify monster. They are pretty regular. And they get their cues that what they are doing is okay from everywhere. Especially other men.
This is just romantic, ignorant bullshit mythology. One way to make the world more humane would be to give humans the possibilility of a full spectrum of emotions and contradictions. Including abusers and rapists.
except we live in a society that says take what you can get away with, screw everyone else, men are this, women are that, etc. The less humanistic the society, the higher incidence of rape.
I suspect that's true. Perhaps there are studies done, I don't know. But, as this society travels further along the path of normalizing the exploitation of the weak, whether it's in terms of physicality, political connections or economic or social status, it would be surprising if we didn't also see this reflected in the physical abuse of women.
I think shifting the focus of education on this is to stay away from "rape is wrong", which is clear to non rapists and lost on rapists, to a focus on what exactly constitutes consent, and putting a very high premium on it.
I think a lot of offenders trick themselves into thinking that what they have done or are doing is "consensual" when it is not. The more we clearly define what is consent, and the higher the bar is set both in terms of the law, and in terms of societal norms, the less abuse there will be.
Men Can Stop Rape mobilizes male youth to prevent men's violence against women. We build young men's capacity to challenge harmful aspects of traditional masculinity, to value alternative visions of male strength, and to embrace their vital role as allies with women and girls in fostering healthy relationships and gender equity.
http://www.mencanstoprape.org/
nice posters, good message! and i agree that when men start standing up to each other about their abusive attitudes towards women, especially when women aren't around, things will (and i think to some degree have) begin to change.
and writer, while i agree that sometimes men who seem to be more enlightened politically might still be found to be responsible for raping someone, i hardly think it is "just romantic, ignorant bullshit mythology" that people who enlighten themselves of struggles for justice and rights (including equality of the sexes) are less likely to force people to have sex with them against their will. Anyone with a genuine respect for human, non human and environmental rights would be by definition a feminist. I don't know any feminists who would rape someone.
And while the above posters are great, and will hopefully influence people, i just can't see the average joe canadian jock/ the power hungry business man , or the violent muscle bound masculine to the max, love to beat the shit out of people and abuse women types seeing this poster and going..."yeah, i should really stop acting like this"...i just think it's a question of actually knowing your target audience: i.e. men who are still raping women
Again, you lean on stereotypes. Disappointing.
I was sexually assaulted by a politically engaged anarchist in 1999. Some in the anarchist community didn't take too kindly to my response to that attack. So I feel confident in regards to my position about how these things are normalized. Sometimes in the most surprising places. Despite your use of the whole guy voice-of-authority thing.
You don't need to agree with me. I know what I've lived. I know what other women have lived. I know what 25+ years of research has shown me.
Drunk driving wasnt turned into someting socially unacceptable overnight. Twenty years ago it looked just as much like, "what are you suppossed to do?"
Half the population smoked when it was first decided to fundamentally attck its acceptability, period. Those were hard slogs beat in little steps, but with a unifying determination.
There are some good ad campaigns and good efforts around abuse of women. But not the kind of determination that existed around drunk driving 20 years ago. With drunk driving we had to both make the penalties stiffer, AND build on that by essentially villifying drunk drivers. With both difficult things to do, the job still got done.
With rape we already have enough on the penalties [on the books] side, and we still cant manage to get the job done... or even started, of making rape flat out unacceptable.
Keep in mind that while everyone might SAY that sexual assault is unacceptable, pick any community you want and when a man people know and like is charged with sexual assault, the rationalization begins. And not just or mostly whether or not he did it... that even when people accept the assault happened, they'll rationalize it one way or another so that the guy 'isnt that bad,' or 'shouldn't be punished'. ... leaving aside even the vile rationalizations that are attacks on the victim.
I can respect the fact you've lived it, and studied it for 25+ years, which i have not. I'll take your word for it that the research shows this is the proper course of action.
But what am i saying that is stereotypical? You mean that i'm saying that generally people who are more enlightened in terms of social justice would be less likely to rape someone? I don't know of any research in this area, i doubt there is any, but i would say the attitudes of most men towards women at your local vegan coffee house and book store are going to be less likely to lead to a sexual assault than those at, say, a football game. maybe i'm just unclear as to who this campaign is targeted to? I'm thinking the majority of men with mainstream views on women?
I'm not trying to be confrontational or be some voice of authority, i just think that by discussing it and challenging each other our strategies for fighting these things will get better and be more effective in the long run.
wouldn't you agree?
I wouldn't agree. I'm a football fan and my artsy cousin raped my sister. You can't label these people. Men from every walk of life rape and try to control women. I won't go into more detail about what I know. I've almost lost my capability to interact with women because I'm scared of my sub-consciousness.
point taken, anyone anywhere man or woman from any walk of life is certainly capable of raping someone. All i'm saying is that by taking the normalcy of rape out of our culture, meaning sexual rape as well as labour, environmental, economic etc. we can't help but increase our opportunity to live in a society that either elimates it completely or at least vastly reduces it.
Sort of like how in a society that puts a monetary value on everything and lets people sell their bodies for physical labour, to get killed in wars for a cheque, do horrible things to people and the environment all over the world, it's not at all surprising that people will also sell sex. Not saying that it would NEVER happen in a non capitalist world, but it would certainly happen less.
Milo, this is a "left wing" board and we see a wide divergence of opinion on all topics. No one on the left marches in lock step, so I'm surprised at your surprise about "left wing" men and rape.
I'm reminded of H.G. Wells. H.G. was a great feminist ally in the battle of sufferage. But when you examine just how he treated women in his life, I think it's a fair take that what drove his feminism was really to promote-- by breaking down the social norms of "Victorian" society-- a society where there was a larger potential pool of bedable women. I don't think what drove Wells' feminism was feminism.
I've almost lost my capability to interact with women because I'm scared of my sub-consciousness.
I think if your thought processes have gone that far, then you have nothing to worry about. Our "sub-conscious" may be the repository of our archatypal fears or instinctive behaviours, but it can't make you do something your conscious doesn't want you to do.
That's the kind of thinking, actually, that has to be rooted out, a rationalization that somehow, you're just not in control.
Oh, but we are.
In the "women under attack thread", I noted that sexual assaults have gone up 21% in the last year in the GVA.
So I thought I would link that thread to this one, as it is clear from these stats that a No Raping push is of upmost necessity.
i never said anything about "left win" just that people with a respect for others and a general aversion to both sexual and non sexual rape would be less likely to do it. I never said these people would NEVER rape, although that seems to be how people keep interpreting it. I just think people who truly care about others are less likely to rape someone, as they would be probably less likely to go to war and kill people or beat people up for fun. I'm sure they can and do do it, just less likely to than people who totally ascribe to mainstream values.
Nope milo, did you ever stop and think passive aggressive behaviour by way of; cold sholder, aloofness, pouting, if you don't 'get it when you want it' and overt and sublimal threats "of getting it elsewhere" are all a part of rape?
And seriously, most here are not into 101ing it with you, I would bet, as I am most certainly sick of it, and really it is not OUR duty to educate YOU.
Agreed.
I think shifting the focus of education on this is to stay away from "rape is wrong", which is clear to non rapists and lost on rapists, to a focus on what exactly constitutes consent, and putting a very high premium on it.
I think a lot of offenders trick themselves into thinking that what they have done or are doing is "consensual" when it is not. The more we clearly define what is consent, and the higher the bar is set both in terms of the law, and in terms of societal norms, the less abuse there will be.
I completely agree with this. In fact, I would say that "rapists" and "non-rapists" as labels are probably not overly helpful either (although I see where you're coming from, Tommy), because we live in a culture that promotes sexual coercion and assault as normal dating or cohabiting behaviour. Which is why so many women experience rape not from scary "sick fuck" types who attack them out of nowhere, but from average guys, many of whom probably think they're nice people (and who might even BE nice people in many ways) and have no clue that what they think is within "normal" bounds is actually out of bounds.
BTW, I think the first step in promoting "don't rape" campaigns is to educate the people around us. So yes, unfortunately, it probably IS our job - and everyone else's job - to educate the people around us who don't "get it" when it comes to how pervasive rape is.
To me, the whole point of shifting from publicity campaigns that teach men not to rape instead of teaching women to repel rape, is to educate people on just what rape IS. We just got finished saying that men (and women!) from all walks of life, progressive or not, sometimes even feminist or not, often don't understand how pervasive rape culture is, and how much women experience sexual assault and sexual coercion even from progressive guys.
Well, the first step is education. And it's too bad that it's like this, but yes, for those of us who understand, it IS our job to educate those who don't.
Even here. Maybe especially here.
I will try to be clear and even about this. It's a challenge as a survivor to raise issues around rape and rape culture, but I do it. Because, otherwise, I don't often see it done. And/or done intelligently. But I also have to be respectful of myself, and that includes my triggers.
I don't come to the feminism forum to be triggered by sloppy ignorance and dominating male behaviour minimizing and otherizing violent dominating male behaviour. It took me a couple of years of hard work to get my last attacker to face the fact that he attacked me. And I accepted that work. In many ways, I got a lot out of that work. But in the feminism forum, I'm looking for something more. Something safer.
Triple post, I'm sorry!
Thinking about it, I think probably the biggest strides in feminist fightback against rape, and shifts in public consciousness about it, have come from telling men to stop raping, rather than telling women how to repel it.
Think about it.
It used to be legal to rape your wife. There used to be no such thing legally as raping your wife. It was assumed that men had the right to have sex with their wives whenever they wanted to. Rape used to be a property crime, basically. It was when women stood up and demanded that men stop raping their wives, and pushing for it to be made illegal, that there was a legal change, and also a shift in public consciousness around marital rape. I'm not saying it doesn't happen now. But I'll bet it happens less than it used to. And certainly most people in our society recognize that forced sex between spouses is actually rape, whereas there was a time when no one realized that.
Think about "date rape". Heck, there has been advice out there for decades directed towards women about how they can avoid being pressured into sex with guys they're dating, how they can avoid guys having sex with them while they're drunk or passed out, how they can avoid guys overriding their objections or simply going ahead even when they say no. The advice given to women was things like, don't dress too "slutty", don't go to someone's house with a guy, don't let him buy you supper because then he'll think you owe him, don't get drunk, don't flirt, don't go "halfway" and change your mind.
Most of that advice just reinforced the idea that if you did any of this stuff, then you were putting YOURSELF in danger. And nothing changed. Women were blamed, and boys will be boys, you know?
Then the "no means no" campaign came along. It was mocked and derided by frat boys, and for good reason. Because it was way more threatening to rape culture than advising women not to wear short skirts. The No Means No campaign put the emphasis directly where it belonged -- on men. Instead of telling women that men are helpless penises who can't resist a short skirt or stop when excited, it instead told men that no means NO, and that sex after "no" is rape.
And while, yes, women are still attacked by men they date, I would argue that the No Means No campaign really did shift public consciousness. The term "date rape" became very familiar, and now I think a lot more people recognize that women have the right to refuse sex, even if she dresses sexy, even if she flirts, even if her date pays for supper, even if she invites him upstairs and necks with him for a little while.
It is the campaigns that focus on the behaviour of men who rape, rather than on the behaviour of their female victims, that have the most impact, and raise consciousness about what constitutes rape and whose behaviour has to change, among men and women.
Fair enough, writer. The problem is, the progressive men AND women who don't get it when it comes to sexual assault are all over the place. Including here. Which to me means the "don't rape" and "this is what rape is" and "nice guys sometimes do it too without even recognizing it" statements have to be made everywhere.
I agree with you about wanting safe space. I think educating people is the way to get them and to broaden them. But defending already created spaces like this is also important, so I respect your point here.
I think these are important points because these behaviours are so pervasive, regardless of political affiliation, and I'd wager that most people DON'T see them as having anything to do with rape.
Agree absolutely.
Am learning how to do this, as I have found I bury, or rather do not realize all the triggers, and then get overly 'assertive' here when it happens. ;)
The Mormon thread was a huge one, took me completely by surprise, and really, sometimes it is surprising and it isn't until you later reflect, on just what happened there, you realize it for the trigger it was, or at least I do not realize it very well. Then you do not want to address it, as that is a trigger, and you just want to decompress from the trigger.
They are extremely important points, I agree, Yiwah, and I'm glad remind brought them up. This is why it annoys me when some guys get so defensive when women talk about rape culture, and talking about men sexually assaulting women without putting in the obligatory reassurances like "some very few men and of course never ever you or any man you've ever known and felt respect for, of course."
If one in four women (or is it one in three?) has been sexually assaulted, then unless there are a handful of men out there committing thousands, or hundreds of thousands, of assaults each, then it's probably a lot more widespread a behaviour among men than many men would feel comfortable with believing.
Unless you've experienced "giving in" to wheedling, whining, begging, silent treatment, etc., and you've experienced the feelings of resentment, shame, anger, sadness, and even the pressure to pretend you're getting something out of it that accompanies the sex you've been pressured into having when you don't really feel like it, you probably don't realize how pervasive it is, and just how many men engage in such tactics. Or you might realize how many men engage in it, but not think it's all that bad. My guess would be that most men who pull those kind of pressure tactics on their partners have no clue whatsoever that what they're doing victimizes women. They just think it's a normal relationship dynamic.
This is such an amazing ad. radiorahim just told me it - it's Scottish, and the campaign is called "Not Ever". It's aimed at men and it's excellent. Exactly the sort of thing I'd like to see here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h95-IL3C-Z8
This too is important, very important, as it compounds the older you get.
And I believe that is why many relationships break up after years of being together, and even in companionship for the most part.
It is like there is a final straw, and that is it.
Of course it is my anecdotal observations only, but it is one of my several questions that I have asked women over the course of my life. 100's of women, perhaps 1000's.
My guess would be that most men who pull those kind of pressure tactics on their partners have no clue whatsoever that what they're doing victimizes women. They just think it's a normal relationship dynamic.
From what I've seen, I'm afraid this is very right.
Two avenues that might be useful for another discussion:
** I've known men who 'unlearned' this, and when it come down to it I don't think for many its hard at all. Its very hard getting through the sexist culture to men in general, but maybe not to most men as individuals. [That it hasn't happened being an indictment of lack of 'macro level' real attempts.]
** I'm getting near 60, and I never in my life was exposed to direct [interpersonal] socialization that pressuring women for sex was OK. There is of course the whole culture still, but I'm inclined to think the direct personal relationships are the most important. And I'm thnking that while this isnt the norm, neither is it rare. Is there something practical to be learned that this already happens at least some of the time?
It's true. I've heard the same thing from many women. All with guys who are varying degrees of nice and respectable who have no clue that their behaviour is anything but normal.
Because that behaviour IS normal, unfortunately.
I think it's also important, as we women get older, to name the behaviour and call our intimate partners out on it if we are able (and I say that knowing fully well that there are a lot of women out there in abusive relationships and facing very uneven power dynamics who cannot do so, so when I say "if we are able" I really mean that), and also to share with our younger sisters our techniques and conversation starters and our talking points to use with our intimate partners. Because it can be really hard to do.
"No, I don't feel like it, and pressuring me will make me feel like it less. The more you pressure me, the less sex you will get, because I will feel more resentful and less like having sex."
"I am feeling pressured right now. You may not mean to pressure me, but that is how I'm feeling."
"I'm sorry, but I don't give in when I don't feel like it. I don't do pity fucks. Be happy that I don't, because when I fuck you, you'll know it's because I really want to."
"No, I don't want to do that particular thing. I don't enjoy it, and no matter how much you like it, that will not make me enjoy it more. You cannot convince me to do it by telling me that I'll enjoy it if you do it because you know how to do it right. I will not give in just to make you feel better, because I will resent you for it every second we're doing it, and probably afterwards as well."
Here's another technique I've used when in the situation where I'm throwing off perfectly obvious "I'm not in the mood" signals and body language (and don't tell me guys don't recognize it, when they have no problem recognizing the very slightest "in the mood" signals immediately) but the guy does the octopus wandering hands routine, hoping that you will find it easier to just give in and put out than to go through the awkwardness of coming right out and saying, "I don't want to have sex with you right now".
If I've been being obvious, like pulling away somewhat, gently pushing hands into "safe" zones when they wander, turning my head away, etc., and the guy plays dumb and keeps going because I haven't specifically vocalized the words "No, I don't want to have sex," then I have occasionally turned, looked the guy directly in the eyes, and said nicely, "I'm not sure why, but you don't appear to be able to read my body language. It would be nice if I didn't have to tell you bluntly that I don't want to have sex with you right now, and instead you would actually pay attention and respect my boundaries when I pull away. Pretending that you are unable to read basic non-verbal signals like pushing your hands away from my genitals and breasts, or turning away from you does not make me want to have sex with you more. It makes me feel pressured, and it's a turnoff."
It's a wake up call, let me tell you. The clinical language is a douse of cold water. The recognition is automatic, especially if the guy is a decent sort otherwise. And even if there is some face-saving or a bit of defensiveness on the guy's part due to the awkward and direct nature of such an action, it can actually turn into a productive discussion, and a starting point for sexual respect.
Are you sure you've never experienced direct socialization that says pressuring intimate partners for sex is okay, KenS? I would like to gently challenge you on that.
Ever heard men make derisive jokes about how they're not getting enough sex from their wives?
Ever seen a sitcom where a husband tries to get his wife to have sex when she's clearly uninterested? (Yes, I've seen the reverse, like Mrs. Roper on Three's Company, or Peg Bundy on Married with Children - and the reason that was a comic gag, I would argue, is because the usual roles are reversed and what's considered a normal relationship dynamic when the pressure comes from the guy, is comic when it comes from the woman.)
Ever seen a movie where it's portrayed as normal for a guy to beg his girlfriend for sex?
Ever heard the song, "I want your sex"? (The whole song is George Michael begging his partner (and it's a woman in the video even though he's gay) to have sex, coming up with a million arguments to support his argument that "don't you think it's time you had sex with me?")
Ever heard a joke about getting someone drunk so they'll say yes?
Ever heard, "Candy is dandy but liquor is quicker"?
Ever read a Harlequin romance, or many other novels where women are coerced?
Ever heard the phrase, "Lie back and think of England"? Ever heard that phrase used as a joke in other contexts?
Ever see the movie "Grease"?
We are ALL directly socialized with the message that pressuring women to have sex is okay. All of us. Men and women. All the time.
Psst, Michelle: I linked to that campaign @ #8.
Oh sorry! I missed it - not sure how since I read the whole thread tonight! :)
P.S. Full circle: rr told me that he saw it because you had posted it.
It happens!
Another movie to add to your list normalizing coercion: Gone With The Wind.
Might be worthwhile to compile a bunch. I was watching 17 Again, starring Zak Efron. It had been picked out by two teenagers who were over for a long weekend of fun. All the sudden, I felt obliged to talk with them about stalking and how it really, really is not romantic or okay or funny in any way. And about what to do when being stalked. Creepy.
Oh lord, yes. Stalking as romance - a theme in so much of pop culture!
When Michael Jackson died, my son got really interested in him - he found a few of his songs really catchy (which of course they are). So rr got him a video with a bunch of MJ's music videos on it.
We got to this one, and boy did we have a lot of deconstructing to do afterwards!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzZ_urpj4As
OMG, Being John Malkovich! It came back to me just now in a flood. All the cool kids were going on and on about how great it was. Made me want to hurl. Oh yes, stick your wife in an animal cage! How hilarious!
The Honeymooners
She's Gotta Have It
I did say we are surrounded by the whole culture, but was making the point that primary [direct interpersonal] socialization is the most decisive as to what you will do, with some of us not getting any of our formative direct socialization where pressuring women for sex is OK.
Except that I didnt say that.
Even before coming back here I realized I mangled things saying I've never been exposed to the direct socialization that pressuring women for sex is OK. What I meant was that even 40 plus years ago my formative direct socialization didnt have that. And hopefully thats more common now, even if all these years later it is still sadly the opposite of the norm.
I dont think its naive to think that certainly by the time you are 30, and well before that really, if you've been socialized that pressuring women is not acceptable... thats it.
I'm not saying all the further direct socialization is not corrosive on us, ditto all the messages we get constantly from the indirect means of the culture at large. But we're ultimately talking about the nuts and bolts of getting men to stop. And its both necessary and quite feasible to get them to stop from where we are now- before we get the 'deeper' causes turned around.
Now, I have no idea whether there is anything much to be learned from the fact that despite all those socialy dominant influences, by dumb luck some of us never got the idea that pressuring women is OK. Especially since the work to be done is with the vast majority of men who have heard the words, but never seriously considered that you dont pressure women.
And maybe thats the lesson: that despite the sick sexist culture, and that males are exposed to tons of ongoing corrosive direct socialization, it doesnt take a sledgehammer to counter that. Counter socialization can be very effective, even swimming against the massive tide.
But it cant be left to chance and hopes. Nor can getting the work done depend entirely on being able to to effect direct socialization.
We can all overcome gender conditioning, sexual conditioning, the tendency to be in denial, rationalise, etc. The bottom line is accountability. Women must stop "giving in" stop enabling men, stop being pressured, speak up, speak out, walk and run out, take self defense courses, become more discerning and demanding. Men must get it: NO MEANS NO MEANS NO. STOP means STOP. Don't means DON'T. Men have to learn there is more to life than their penis and more to women than boobs, butts and genitals. When men and women get over gender conditioning and oppressor/oppressed roles we will find intimacy-- into me see. Mutual respect and self respect demand that WE CALL THE WHOLE ROTTEN SEX GAME OFF. To all those who have been raped, accept only compassion, support and understanding. It is not your job to educate the rapists. Let the therapists do that and jail the bastards who rape, assault, harrass. Rape is a criminal act and let us not further burden the victims and protect the victimizers.
You're reopening the "Don't get raped" thing b star.
Women must stop "giving in" stop enabling men, stop being pressured, speak up, speak out, walk and run out, take self defense courses, become more discerning and demanding.
It's on the men, the rest of your post was spot on, I think. Us men must stop it!
"Nope milo, did you ever stop and think passive aggressive behaviour by way of; cold sholder, aloofness, pouting, if you don't 'get it when you want it' and overt and sublimal threats "of getting it elsewhere" are all a part of rape?"
I just think you're misinterpreting me: I'm saying the only way rape will become abnormal in society is when the people that are doing it become more educated and aware of what rape is, and that it can constitute exactly what you're describing. That coercion is a form of rape. My point, in my first post, was that people who do not get this right now may not see the similarity between what you've described (coercion) with a more mainstream view of rape of literally physically forcing someone against their will to have sex with you. It will be only through educating people that coercion is a form of violence. Again, my point was that most men-most people- simply don't think that way, so when you say "don't rape" they don't get it because coercion is such a part western society, so they still think that rape is only rape when the other person is kicking and screaming.
"And seriously, most here are not into 101ing it with you, I would bet, as I am most certainly sick of it, and really it is not OUR duty to educate YOU."
well if thats your attitude, how do you expect to communicate your message to the kind of men who would rape someone? If you crap all over me for responding to a post on babble which is supposed to be a place for sharing and challenging progressive opinions, i fail to see how you are ever going to reach people who DON'T think coercion is still rape out there in mainstream society. Which i think really proves my point about this campaign.
No Milo, it proves you haven't thought about your tact. We're allies. A lot of posters agree the 101 shoud be gone over. Others don't. Please respect them.
We need to find a way to respectfully communicate. Teh interwebs sux for cumunic@$ion.
I feel that there are men who would never even consider raping a woman and it does not matter whether they are so-called educated or not. They are simply decent men! Those same men have the courage to speak up when other men demean women/girls. They also help a woman when they are a witness to violence against her. Most importantly, they find the act of rape reprehensible. Yes, believe it or not there are such men. Rape is a violent act, it is not only "unacceptable"but can ruin a person's whole life. How convenient to imply that some simply do not know what they are doing. Try telling that to a judge when you break and enter or when you kill someone when drunk driving!! It is called unaccountable and making excuses for abominations and YES rape is an abomination. It is not the women who are "weak" as someone implied, it is the men! Let's get this straight. The men who are controlled by their penises are weak. Men who say they just have no control over what they do - guess what? is there anything weaker than that? What a flimsy excuse. A body part controls a whole person - how "weak" can a human being get? It is a monstrous thing to do to rape a woman, child or man. Let us have the guts to call it what it is!
If ya can't control your penis - get help man! We human beings can control what we WANT to control. It is so easy to say "Gee - I just can't help myself". Get me my kleenex box. What a hell of a cop-out! If there is a problem, GET IT FIXED! Why is it that there is more of a focus on getting the women to be more careful rather than holding the men accountable for this violation? Look at some of the posts from the supposedly progressive rabble men!! Even in this democratic country, so it is said, men control the judicial system, the medical system, academic institutions, the media, therefore, there is mass collusion amongst men in protecting their bros and blaming the 'dames'! Why don't the men just stay home at night and allow the women to have the streets. Maybe we can take turns! Let's perhaps put a curfew on the guys for a change.
Re the coercion issue, let the men who profess to be allies to woman take on the task of educating their brothers, fathers, sons and male friends/colleagues It isn't a woman's task to educate men. It is a woman's job TO PROTECT HERSELF: Set her boundaries and support her sisters and the men who TRULY are their allies. Many women want to put their energy where it counts most and where it is very much needed. Women don't have the time and energy to keep 'wiping noses' and 'changing diapers' if you get the drift.
This too is important, very important, as it compounds the older you get.
And I believe that is why many relationships break up after years of being together, and even in companionship for the most part.
It is like there is a final straw, and that is it.
Of course it is my anecdotal observations only, but it is one of my several questions that I have asked women over the course of my life. 100's of women, perhaps 1000's.
That's how it happened for me...I always say, if he'd have been physically abusive I would have left a lot earlier. Instead he cheated and blamed it on me for being sexually distant, even gave me STIs, and had the gall to at the outset pretend he thought I'd been unfaithful. I wasn't prepared for the three day stints of the 'cold shoulder' when I wasn't interested in having sex with him after a long day of work and then taking care of the kids. I wasn't prepared for the threats of him leaving me to find someone who would put out more. I mean, I can look at these things now and realise how absolutely awful they are, but it was difficult at the time, and I know he still thinks he did everything right.
My last straw? Him telling me "can't you at least pretend to enjoy it?".
The thought of him makes my skin crawl.
Oh lord, yes. Stalking as romance - a theme in so much of pop culture!
When Michael Jackson died, my son got really interested in him - he found a few of his songs really catchy (which of course they are). So rr got him a video with a bunch of MJ's music videos on it.
We got to this one, and boy did we have a lot of deconstructing to do afterwards!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzZ_urpj4As
That...
Is so creepy. And all the guys stopping her from getting away. The old man giving him the thumbs up.
Can't believe I've never seen this before, it's chilling. I think at one point I'm deliberately going to watch this with my girls.
Women must stop "giving in" stop enabling men, stop being pressured, speak up, speak out, walk and run out, take self defense courses, become more discerning and demanding.
It's on the men, the rest of your post was spot on, I think. Us men must stop it!
I was taught not to put up with abuse...but I thought abuse just meant hitting.
There are plenty of things our daughters have to learn too.
Yes, out daughters must learn to defend themselves, to bring the rapists to the Courts with dignity, to be independent and to learn marshal arts!! They must also learn that is life without men. Further, if they do have a man at their side so to speak, they must learn that there is life beyond the guy!
Yes, our daughters must learn to defend themselves, to bring the abusers/rapists to the Courts with dignity, to be independent and to learn marshal arts!! They must also learn that there is life without men. Further, if they do have a man at their side so to speak, they must learn that there is life beyond the guy even if married or partnered.
remind, somehow I missed your post @ #35 last night. Thanks for that. And Yiwah, thanks for adding your lived experiences. Really appreciate those contributions. Michelle, thanks for the illustrations of some of the low-key / "normal" forms of abuse / oppression / coercion / rape culture.
I was "only" sexually assaulted once, by a friend's brother. We were all in a tent camping together and he just started groping me - thinking I was asleep. I pushed him away without saying anything (didn't want to bring attn to other friends in the tent), but I felt awful. I confessed to my girlfriends the next morning and there was no shortage for excuses for this guy, even from women. "He and his gf just broke up, so he is feeling vulnerable and down", "he was drunk", "you were drunk" (so what?!). The fact that even women can make these kinds of excuses when sexual assault hits too close to home (which is often the case) shows how normalized it is and how much we have been taught to fear "the stranger in the alley" as the sole perp of rape.
To this day, I avoid any situation where I might see this man and am disgusted that other friends treat him so kindly.
Ghislaine, a few years ago I read an excellent book that explored that very dynamic, as well as other aspects of rape culture and surviving an attack.
Aftermath: Violence and the Remaking of a Selfby Susan J. Brison
http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7133.html
Our kids are just getting into regular school (our eldest just finished grade 1).
It is very interesting to see how kids even at that age show some of the patterss of anger and lack of repect and control of adult behaviour (and many positive adult traits too, but that is another matter). I can think of one boy whose high frustration and insistence on gun play (plus the fact that other kids see that and wind him up) terrifies me.
I think we learn a lot of this stuff in our first few years of life, watching our parents. Young kids are just as aware and in many ways far more perceptive than adults. I know my dad and my mom both had shame lessons that were drilled into them by the time they were just learning to speak.
One thing I see that gives me hope is how diligent the teachers there seem to be about impressing respectful values on ths children - not just saying don't touch, but dealing with it on a level of respect, and how it feels when someone has their private space violated, and devoting time to those kids who need more attention. There is also a big sign in their school about it being a safe place for people regardless of sexual orientation (it is a K-8 school). I don't know how much kids take the messages to heart, and I don't know how many schools are as diligent about this (we just got hit with sticks when I was that age) but it is good to see.
It is interesting too, with our kids we were open about teaching them "penis" and "vagina" as the correct words for their bodies. We didn't plan it, but the word "private" followed naturally afterward, and by age three/four both our kids knew how to set boundaries between each other and with their mother and me, and when to tell us that they needed privacy or to not be touched.
As for the message about men's responsibility in rape culture, that message has been out for awhile, at least on university campuses. It certainly was there when I went to school in the early 80s. As an 18-year-old I recognized the message, even though I think I took it as a bit of unfair suspicion of me (an immature but understandable reaction) . I don' t know how many students who weren't aware of the women's centre or didn't pay attention to the student newspaper knew about it, but it was there. Actually, there was an active contingent of people who ridiculed that message, so I don't think there are too many university students who can claim ignorance.
Sorry for the long post.
I was "only" sexually assaulted once, by a friend's brother. We were all in a tent camping together and he just started groping me - thinking I was asleep. I pushed him away without saying anything (didn't want to bring attn to other friends in the tent), but I felt awful. I confessed to my girlfriends the next morning and there was no shortage for excuses for this guy, even from women. "He and his gf just broke up, so he is feeling vulnerable and down", "he was drunk", "you were drunk" (so what?!). The fact that even women can make these kinds of excuses when sexual assault hits too close to home (which is often the case) shows how normalized it is and how much we have been taught to fear "the stranger in the alley" as the sole perp of rape.
To this day, I avoid any situation where I might see this man and am disgusted that other friends treat him so kindly.
It took my best friend 10 years to finally be able to accept that she'd been sexually assaulted at a house party when we were 15. She was drunk out of her mind, but even still was pushing him away. She told a few people weeks after it happened, but same thing...lots of excuses. She had a few experiences like that later on, not quite as awful, but close...she got a reputation as 'bringing it on herself' and getting drunk in order to 'get away with it'. Ten years before she could say 'no, really, it was sexual assault and it wasn't my fault.'
One thing I see that gives me hope is how diligent the teachers there seem to be about impressing respectful values on ths children - not just saying don't touch, but dealing with it on a level of respect, and how it feels when someone has their private space violated, and devoting time to those kids who need more attention. There is also a big sign in their school about it being a safe place for people regardless of sexual orientation (it is a K-8 school). I don't know how much kids take the messages to heart, and I don't know how many schools are as diligent about this (we just got hit with sticks when I was that age) but it is good to see.
Unfortunately, I haven't had the same luck. We moved, and my girls started classes in a new school last September. My eldest is in grade two and has gone through some pretty intense pressure from one particular boy. I can't believe the conversations I've had to have with her about peer pressure and boundaries. This boy, also in grade two, was telling her that they were boyfriend/girlfriend (he hasn't asked, he just assumed) and wanted her to kiss him. She did once, but then refused to again. He told her he wouldn't be her friend if she didn't kiss him. She didn't anyway, and told me. I was really, really proud of her. Long conversation that one.
Then, a few weeks later, he wound up in the bathroom with her and asked her to take of her shirt. She didn't (good for her!) and I made a huge stink about it at school. Not much got done.
A few weeks after that, another boy told my daughter she was going to have to suck his privates and "do sex" with him and the other little boy.
Seriously. What the fuck!? Again, I lost it. I pulled her out of school for a bit too, because I didn't feel the school was taking this seriously enough. I talked to the mom, but she was feeling threatened by the principal, and I don't think we got to the issue of 'why is your son behaving like this?' She's a great person, but he's getting it from somewhere, and so is the other boy. It chills me to think what they're learning at that age.
So my daughters, ages 6 and 8, have already been learning about the pressure boys put on girls to 'perform'. Maybe it's a good thing, because they stand up for themselves, and they tell me when things don't go well. When people, boys or girls, try to threaten them with taking away their friendship if my girls don't do something...my girls tell them real friends don't play those games.
"Boys will be boys" was the school's stance.
No. Boys and girls are taught these behaviours.
Viwah - I don't think you "lost it", I think you got it. You bet it is a good thing. It is great that your girls will not be bullied by anyone. Somebody's doing something right!
@ Yiwah
That is utterly despicable. It is also unfortunate how some parents automatically default to an ego-driven entrenched position, even when it involves defending sexual assault.
My dad was a teacher, and I am aware of how much that system runs on bullying, ego and control from students and teachers. Even before our kids got into school we had discussed the option of homeschooling if it was the best thing (since we are self-employed we have that option, however difficult).
I am aware that we are very fortunate that we are not faced with that - yet.
I'm reading with appreciation and so much more. Thank you.
@ Yiwah
That is utterly despicable. It is also unfortunate how some parents automatically default to an ego-driven entrenched position, even when it involves defending sexual assault.
My dad was a teacher, and I am aware of how much that system runs on bullying, ego and control from students and teachers. Even before our kids got into school we had discussed the option of homeschooling if it was the best thing (since we are self-employed we have that option, however difficult).
I am aware that we are very fortunate that we are not faced with that - yet.
I was a teacher for 5 years. I'd like to go back to it once I pass the Bar and get enough experience with the legal practice that I can sort of do both. That entrenchment you speak of is really disturbing. The sexism and racism I've seen reinforced in the schools (I taught mostly in Aboriginal communities) is really depressing, hence my desire to get enough of a legal education to fight...with teeth!
I considered home schooling as well. I probably could have done it had I not left the financial security of my marriage, but in the end I choose to live a life consistant with what I want my kids to learn, which is you don't put up with shit, and yes you do deserve to be happy. I think ultimately this will be the most important lesson I teach them, even if it means I no longer have the option to homeschool.
I've got them enrolled in a new school now, and I hope it will work out. I want to be much more involved this time...the school they were in was extremely antagonistic towards parent participation (other than unquestioning volunteerism). Maybe I wouldn't have had these conversations with them so young though, had this not come up. Maybe my children will be more prepared because of it. No one talked to me about these things as a kid...I had to learn them on my own and it's been a long struggle. At least my children don't face the ceaseless physical violence I did as a kid in school. I was in fist fights from grade two on.
I can't homeschool, but I talk to my kids constantly. I answer all their questions honestly. Sometimes it shocks 'bystanders', like when I gave my daughter a quick explanation of how STIs are passed in male/female sex in a response to her question about an ad for condoms in the woman's washroom. I think I did it in an entirely age appropriate way...luckily this was during a roller derby game and the women were mostly weirded out because the majority of them were queer :D Imagine the looks I got when I gave a recap of menstruation in an upscale boutique washroom...
But I don't have sons, and I keep thinking that I'm teaching defence to girls who will end up having to fend off boys who aren't being taught how to respect anyone. It's a good thing I can do this, but somehow it's not 'fixing' things, is it.
@ Yiwah
Yes, We have one of each. If anything, we have to teach our boy to be more assertive and stand up for himself more, though I know we will ultimately have to deal with all that they will both learn from other kids. I am happy that neither of them are into the violence-numbing video games that some of their peers already enjoy. Both of ours are into inevitable gun play - even a piece of wood becomes one. And I don't think that is necessarily unhealthy if it is within reason. But he also came home one say with a realistic pistol that a friends' parents had given him. I was shocked that they would do such a thing without even checking with us to see if it was okay. I disappeared it as soon as possible.
One of the best lessons my dad gave me (and I am not sure if he even intended it as a lesson) was when I was four and out hunting with him. He took me in his arms, put the butt of the rifle up to my shoulder and fired. It scared the shit out of me, and I understood that there was a big difference between play guns and the real thing.
I also really dislike a lot of the disturbing violent and sexist imagery kids are constantly bombarded with. When my parents (who are TV addicts) visit I have several times had to make them turn off those grisly cop shows that turn violence and sexual assault into tittilating entertainment. They didn't seem to be even aware that young children were seeing that and soaking it up. It is hard to explain to young kids that what some people think is normal is actually nota good set of values.
But I don't want to turn this into a thread about kids education and get too far from the original topic.
Fine line perhaps....after all, we're talking about teaching a 'don't rape' message, and where best to start with that...but we could probably have a dedicated thread on child-rearing. I'd still sort of like to have it in this forum though. Thoughts?
I'm finding this exchange really useful. Thank you both.
My experience with schools has been like both that of Smith and Yiwah.
Like Smith in the sense that we appreciate what the schools and most of the teachers are doing. And I'm talking cultural backwaters of Nova Scotia here.
But unfortunately- there are way too many of the boys and girls it seems to be completely lost on anyway. At least a majority. The boys- I wont go there. My daughters are near the end of school years. They dont take guff let alone boys demands [dont even get it really], but some of their friends are painful to watch... let alone other girls at the school. Though, I will say that at least a couple of the friends who seemed primed to get and accept all the usual shit, have over the last couple years seem to have been positively influenced by what they talk about in class and with some of their friends like my daughters.
Boys are kind of alien creatures to me. A lot of them seem like nice guys, especially a number I've known since they were in play groups. But I cant really say what's going on inside them. And there are plenty of obvious predators out there. I don't really know if the number of boys who show that they fully respect women are any more than what would happen more or less accidentally in small peer groups like when I was in their position 45 years ago. A couple of the friends of my daughters mentioned above who you had to worry about and seem to have got sense and centre... they have boyfriends who a couple years ago I would have counted among the standard creeps.
I remember something that happened to a friend of mine some years (20 or so) back. I had moved up to a fairly isolated rural area. It was (still is) underpopulated, with lots of empty houses, and virtually no one around between the ages of 18 and 45 - most young people just moved away. That was also part of the reason I didn't last too long up there.
I was given a house and had plenty of farm work , and stayed for a year. My friend moved up at around the time I left. She also got a house, but within a few months her landlord came by and asked her for sex. She turned him down. She never told anyone other than me and a mutual friend of ours who was a longtime resident up there, but we suspect the word got around somehow anyway. In any case, the damage was done, and she found herself evicted and basically driven out of the community.
Our friend who knew how things worked there was sympathetic, but his explanation shockingly matter-of-fact: these people have have no conception of a woman living on her own without a husband. They see a single woman who goes to the city regularly and they automatically assume that she must be a prostitute. Nothing else makes any sense to them.
6079 and Yiwah,
Thanks.
This is mind boggling and utterly eye-opening
Yes, thank you Yiwah. Lots of ground was covered here. I have an adult son and I still have a hard time getting him to properly respect women, although I think he does a good enough job. I worry all the time that I haven't taught him well enough or that it is too late for my influence on him at this point.
Yiwah - thanks so much for your post #66. I have a 3 month old daughter and I am so scared by the messages I see in our culture. As maddening as your experience is (grade 2!), you show that it is possible to instill a strong enough sense of self-worth in daughters to say no to this shit. And here we are back to the thread title. Even in grade 2, girls have to be taught not to get sexually assaulted, while "boys will be boys">
Wow, I didn't know you gave birth three months ago, Ghislaine! Congrats!
This is a very interesting thread and I agree with the sentiments expressed in the first post that we seem to be mixed up in terms of to WHOM we deliver the message concerning rape.
It reminds me of a story from Israel many years ago back when Golda Meir was serving as prime minister. There had been a string of rapes in a certain city and there was a ot of media coverage and a lot of fear and everyone was looking for solutions. Some advisor (probably well meaning) suggested that maybe until the rapist was apprehended, the city should have a curfew policy in place for women where they shouldn't go out after a certain hour. Golda Meir responded that since it was men doing the raping, wouldn't a more logical approach be to impose a curfew on MEN?
I find that it is critical to teach girls to defend themselves, physically as well as emotionally. All children have to be taught to defend themselves against bullying and they also have to be taught to respect one another. It is no small order. Many boys are bullied by other boys too and some have had major problems, some (both girls and boys) have even suicided. In some cases, the school authorities (teachers/principals/shool board members) looked the other way and simply would not deal with the situation. The parents involved were at their wit's end. Sometimes parents don't do anything about it and that is the worse case scenario. The kids feel so isolated and alone in such instances.
I have known people who have had to speak to their children each time an incident of bullying/disrespect has occurred and have taught them how to behave decently with each in every such incident as they arise at school or among friends in a yard or playground. Sometimes I am amazed at how well some children truly listen and get it - both boys and girls. However, it does take fortitude. I have a friend who works with children and she uses teddies and dolls of every which kind to get the kids to relate to various incidents. They seem to learn so much more with toys and drawings esp. when they are very young. They are not spooked that way and it is 'their language' after all. She had the kids play out various incidents of bullying/disrespect or inappropriate touching: what they ought to do for instance, and they learned very well how to take of themselves. With older kids she had them express how they feel when someone doesn't respect them: sad, angry, teary, etc.... they often drew their anger on a large sheet of paper. Some took red pencils and drew the "red anger", others drew with black crayons their dark sad feelings, etc.... It works very well with many children. It's a kill one must learn - to protect oneself, to communicate clearly, to have boundaries. Adults must learn these skills too because how many of us were taught these skills? Most of us were not taught and we learn them as we go along - or not. :) When we do, we pass them along to our children/grandkids.
It's really too bad that the women opening up on this thread outnumber the men by a significant margin. To all the other men, agression is something that is distributed on a continuum, try and think back to the times you were most agressive, or that it was on your mind for whatever reason, even if it's relatively tame, and think about the social dynamics at play.
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I think one of the problems of guy culture is that men are measured by the woman on their arms, so to speak. Having a girlfriend / sexual partner and frequent exploits is a form of validation and is assumed to be "necessary" without anyone ever realizing it's "necessary".
I write this as somebody who is, for whatever reason, rarely in love/lust. Maybe twice in my life, once at 18-20, and another time at 22-24 or so, whereas most people seem to be in wild relationships on a regular basis from the time they're 16. Over the years I've had plenty of harassment from other guy friends telling me I need to ask her out or something... it's difficult to explain what a huge pressure it is. The impetus is to ask out any woman you might be talking with at any given point in time, go find someone if no one is available, if you're not interested get interested, et cetera. Fortunately, I rarely listened. A few times I did, twice I asked a friend out that I wasn't really into (which was preceded by non-genuine flirtations) and then lost that friend, once I made a made a really lame hyper-cocky date request to what could have been an opportunity. Fortunately, no real harm done.
Back in the fall of 2006 there was an exchange student in one of my classes, and I brought up conversation with no real intentions whatsoever, just usual exploring the water sort of stuff. There's other people in the room noticing and within the next few hours and weeks "Daaaaaaaaaaave man, awesome !!!!!! when are you making your move". The conclusion had been predetermined for me. Incidentally, she was attractive I guess, a nice person, but I wasn't attracted to her. Incidentally, when I did get a girlfriend about 5 months later that I was actually interested in, one of these guys told me "I don't think she's as hot as that other girl". His girlfriend got mad at him ...
Part of the reason that I hate parties is that they're glorified mating festivals. If the purpose of a party is to get laid, and you don't think you're going to get laid at that party, then there's no point in going. A few years back was going to a sugar shak with some people. Was going to invite one guy and he told me over msn "can't wait to get some honey, if you know what I mean". How embarassing... we don't talk much since, he changed sometime around 2005 and became more agressive in all aspects of life. A year ago or so I organized some reunion with some other alumns of my program (we were a special class imo). Another guy told me it was great I was organizing this, and that he was totally getting laid that night. He ended up leaving early, alone. Incidentally, that party was an exception and I enjoyed it, as it was mostly engaged with respect to the idea of catching up to old friends. As far as most parties go, I think they're just glorified mating festivals, and I prefer the honesty of dating sites.
I think it's important to teach boys that it's ok to be single, and that relationships and attractions should be something that emerge naturally from normal social interactions rather than something that's forced; certainly that should be the case while they're in school anyway and hopefuly meeting new people all the time. Right now, men are in part by who they date, and while that happens I'm not sure that can change. Trophy wives are a status symbol, and unlike private jets you don't need US$ 30,000,000 to go for it. If a single man ever ran for public office for example I suspect he would be massacred.
If a single man ever ran for public office for example I suspect he would be massacred.
Well, when Adam Giambrone decided to run for mayor of Toronto, he apparently felt it necessary to have some sort of imaginary "partner" rather than just saying "look, I'm young and single and I like to have sex with lots of different people."
500 Apples: I'm certain many of us on this thread do not find it "too bad that the women far outnumber the men". There is nothing "bad" about it at all! Can't believe you actually said that!
ya this thread is so about MEN......ffs....
would ya get a grip, seriously, do you men not think we women do not understand what the fuck you are doing in this thread and forum, saying the the utter male dominant crap ya are?
where are the mods?
I saw that sentence too, and kind of wondered about it, but the rest of the post way way more than made up for it. If we want men to do the work of educating other men about their attitudes towards women, then that could have been what 500 meant about it being too bad more men aren't doing so here.
Thanks so much for sharing so much about yourself, and your first-hand observation of "guy culture" around sex and relationships, 500 Apples. It takes a lot of courage to not only name it for what it is, but also to refuse to fit into it.
I also think it's too bad that more men aren't speaking up about it the way you have. Recognizing what you have recognized is a huge contribution towards stopping the objectification (which leads to sexual assault) of women.
Thanks for sharing. That was a stellar post.
REMIND: Thank you. You see through it and round it. Good for you.
O.K. it is good that some men speak up but even many men who are allies take over when not reminded that on this issue they need to LISTEN AND LEARN not be the "educators of women". For years I facilitated groups for men only as well as groups for women only. My purpose was to assist each to overcome gender conditioning. The women had to learn to set clear, strong boundaries in many areas including sexuality. They had to learn not to leak their anger away in tears or turn it inward. They needed to increase self respect and self esteem so as to insist on being treated respectfully by others (including other women, family members, bosses, the media, university instructors). The men had to learn to be more vulnerable, to face fear and grief and to stop using anger as a cover for every emotion and to face their sexual addiction--sex as the be all and end all, sex as the "escape", sex as "control", sex as "power over" a partner instead of sex as an expression of intimacy and caring.
What I noticed is that the men who attended these groups were already a little more sensitive than the norm, had partners who were feminists or women in the process of becoming more assertive and who were threatening to leave if their men did not "get it" and make core changes for the sake of their children for those who had them as well as for the good of the relationship. I also noticed the difference in support and recognition that was accorded these men for attending such groups. The men were heroized. The women were initially further oppressed and called "self-centred" and "selfish" for no longer placing themselves last by family members seeking to pressure them to keep playing the game.
As women we must respect ourselves to be able to teach it to our children. We have to be willing to use tough love with our sons. We have to be models who are skilled in self defense, physical self defense and emotional self defense. We have to be able to nip every instance of bullying--including verbal bullying--in the bud. We have to be savvy and discerning when emotional blackmail and manipulation are used by some men and even some women to pressure us into the compassion trap of understanding at our own expense and enabling perpetrators to continue dominating us and pushing us around.
We need to welcome changes by men, and invite some input to these discussions without permitting the men to pontificate and take over. Let the men start their own thread to educate each other. It is too early for discussion on the same thread. Women need the space to speak to each other without interference and condesention, a place to gain strength and clarity. Men need a thread where there can be some solid self examination and confronting of one another without fear of losing face and without further building of all too big egos. In other words they have to do the right thing for the right reason. If their motive is impure there will be no lasting, significant change. They will simply become more sophisticated at staying in the driver's seat. We need to end rape of the mind as well as rape of the body.
I've been following this thread with interest. Thanks to everyone who has shared.
The message "Don't get raped" encourages people to blame the victim instead of the rapist. It encourages women to blame themselves instead of their attackers. It makes us feel guilty and unsure when we are assaulted, such that we are left wondering if maybe we did something to make the guy think we did consent or maybe what happened was normal and not an assault after all.
Michelle's post dealing with techniques at #40 is spot-on. I'd be surprised if there was anyone (men or women) who has not experienced at least one of her examples.
I would be very interested in a study about the way parents talk to their sons and daughters about sexual assault. I suspect that the double standard I grew up with is alive and well: my parents worried about my safety and my dad would have been happy if he could forbid me from leaving the house so that nothing bad could happen; my parents worried about my brother getting one of the neighbours pregnant. To be fair, my dad did talk to my brother about the importance of respecting women but I don't think that message was as important to him as the first one. And why is that? Not because my dad is a Neanderthal but because the possibility of a pregnant teenager girlfriend seemed much more likely to him than my brother taking advantage of his girlfriend.
I'm sure most parents talk to their kids about the importance of respect in any relationship but I wonder if they explain what that means.
Boys may understand that they need to respect girls but there are many teenage boys who really do not know which behaviours are acceptable and which are completely unacceptable. Nor do they connect these behaviours with the word assault
The same can be said for grown men, unfortunately. That is partly why victim blaming persists.
Forgive me for quoting myself, but in another thread about victim blaming, I wrote:
By focusing on what the woman woulda/shoulda/coulda done differently, we are taking the focus of the rapist. Why bother changing all these variables about clothing, demeanor, prior sexual history, alcohol, time of night, when all we need to change is one thing: it wouldn't have happened if he hadn't done it. He could have asked first/listened when she said no/noticed that she was passed out from too much alcohol and left her alone.
A guy can go home with a girl that he just met at a bar and maybe he'll be worried about the following: is my apartment presentable/are my sheets clean/will she want to have sex with me/will it be awkward in the morning/what will I think with my beer goggles off/will my buddies razz me?
A girl should be able to go home with a guy and have only the same worries, but we know that's not the case.
I have found that the above example helps guys understand a little what it's like for us.
Men have to be part of the solution and we need them as allies so they can educate their children and the real brave ones can help educate their friends.
I think Apple's post is very helpful and if more men had the self-awareness he has, it would go a long way to improving situations. If we want to change the message from "don't get raped" to "don't rape", it will be much easier with men onside. A post like Apple's was not trying to educate women or challenge us. It was sharing his experience.
One of the people who commented on these posts and had no response whatsoever from the women on the posts is a woman who has her book studied in Women's Studies at Harvard University and throughout Canada and parts of the U.S. and has been a huge voice in the dialogue between men and women. Both women and men throughout this country have been honouring this woman for bringing them closer to sweeter relationships with one another and assisting their children to be non-sexist human beings, respecting and honouring one another, among many other positive changes.
This woman has been a voice in this country and internationally. She has broadened the minds of both men and women willing to be serious about change. She has been the voice of reason in the press, on television/radio and she has been sought out by human beings who needed to overcome prejudice of every sort as well as trauma over every sort. This woman submitted posts on this forum and has been ignored completely while so many men have been responded to for sharing their experiences. Apparently, this woman is correct that men are heroized for their increases in self-awareness while womens' analyses and deep sharing is overlooked at times.
Women are all too willing to give authority to men and to withhold it from women who speak out. This is why I agree that men should begin a thread of their own and the women on this thread should defer less to the men and be less congratulatory about the mens' teenie-weenie baby steps.
I am so happy that someone has found a forum that "helps guys understand a little what it's like for us". Us being the women. Well guess what? Some women want more than "a little" understanding. They want to be understood and heard period. "A little" isn't good enough. Neither is a lil' understanding without follow-up action. Women want to be SAFE TO WALK THE STREETS WITHOUT BEING RAPED and want an end to the use of date rape drugs and an end to sexual harassment and pressure.
Women want an end to violence against women. Rape is not a "sexual act", it is a criminal act and an act of VIOLENCE. We, who have self-esteem and feel entitled to freedom, do not simply want a "little understand of what it's like for us". Neither are we satisfied with the testimonials of a few men who claim to be exceptional and exempt from sexist conditioning. Of course we want men on board but we want more than lip service. Talk is cheap.
integrity, thanks for your post, and welcome to babble! You are right that men shouldn't be taking over and defining women's experiences for them, or making it all about men and their experiences. I didn't feel like that was happening in this thread, at least not at the time I posted, but I definitely see your point about how being too inviting to men to share their experiences in feminist discussions can lead to a takeover. It's happened throughout the history of the feminism forum here, and if anyone should know that, it's me! I also see your point about men taking it to another thread if they want to educate each other.
Not much to add beyond that you've convinced me. :) Thanks again for your thoughtful post.
I'm not sure who you're referring to, b star, but the main reason I praised 500 Apples for his post was because he was being attacked for sharing his experiences here about rape culture. I don't think anyone in this thread, male or female, other than 500 Apples, was being attacked after sharing personal experiences that made them vulnerable. I wasn't attempting to "heroize" anyone. I was simply trying to add some balance.
Any time that I see anyone attacked for sharing something that I really appreciate and find insightful, I will go out of my way to thank them for sharing and let them know that I got something out of it. In my opinion, 500 Apples did not take over the conversation. He has contributed something a lot more constructive than some of the clueless stuff some of the babble guys have been posting in this thread and the feminism forum in general, if you ask me! :)
I agree that I probably went overboard by saying that more men should speak up the way he has -- I agree with integrity that if they do, perhaps it should be in their own thread, so not to take over women's experiences in this thread. So I was mistaken about that. But my mistake came out of a desire not to see someone attacked for sharing something that was so on point and helpful to my understanding of the issue. There are ways to treat male allies when they mostly get it right but say something that needs correction. I don't think attacking them is helpful, personally.
No one was attacked excepting the protesters in the last while. I hadn't noticed any "attack" on this thread. Let's not overdo it. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. AN "attack" is different from an opinion.
Yes, actually, he was attacked. He was sworn at, had his motives for what the "fuck" he was doing here questioned, had his entire post where he shared his personal experience of oppression by "guy culture" when he tries to buck the rape culture trend described as "utter male dominant crap" because of one perhaps ill-considered sentence, and then an appeal to the moderators of the forum made against him.
If that's not an attack, then I'm not sure what does qualify as one.
I think that if we as feminists can't recognize verbal attacks when made against male allies, and we can't recognize when we're replicating the kind of abusive behaviour that we decry in men, that it's going to be difficult to fight abuse against women.
I think we have very different perceptions of who our male allies are and how one recognizes them. As far as some of us are concerned, "utter male dominant crap" is/was an expression of frustration on the part of the person who made that comment. While she could have phrased it more neutrally, I don't view it as an "attack" which is a very strong word. It all hinges on whether the description is accurate or not. It is great to buck the rape culture but when a male is disrespectful enough to begrudge women the right to be the majority on a feminist thread, there is more going on than an "ill-considered sentence". It is indicative of gender conditioning re male dominance. It reveals the tendency to take for granted that men are entitled to define reality including womens' reality. After all, 500 Apples thought there were too few male voices. Many men are not accustomed to, or comfortable with women taking their own authority and finding their own voices. All too often women become silent and defer to male contributors. This is what I decry.
As for "verbal attacks" I neither make them nor do I condone them. Many people on Rabble seem to use "WTF" or the f word. In my view, the woman in question was not swearing AT anyone but was expressing her exaspperation. She didn't say "F U" to the person. There is a big difference.
It is still my observation that some of the men sharing their experiences have an over-inflated view of themselves and that some of the women responding collude with this. It is important to acknowledge the progress of male allies when it is warranted. It is also important not to make much ado about nothing. It is most important of all to develop very strong and accurate radar and discernment. There are some men on this forum, on Rabble who are true allies and some who are definitely not. May we see with realize: real eyes, clear eyes. It is not untoward to question motive, when it is self-aggrandizement and when it is the offering of empathy. My point is that men need to listen more and women need to speak more. Each requires to overcome their habitual pattern of behaviour and learn what is missing from their repertoire. In general, men have no problem asserting their authority or usurping it. Women, on the other hand, are conditioned to give up their power and to give up their authority. It is much more difficulty for women to reclaim authority in the presence of men. That is the reason some of the early Women Studies classes were more effective when all the students were female. This is definitely not about silencing men. Nor is it about encouraging women to take authority that is not rightfully theirs/ours. This is about bridging, uniting, coming to an understanding. Sometimes a segregated form temperarily needed in order to assure that a mixed forum is genuinely effective. Sometimes it is premature to dialogue. Temporary space can be extremely effective and productive, then an exiting and innovative dialogue can take place. Then a true deep sharing of experience, equally meaningfull to everyone involved (both men/women) can take place. It is beautiful and touching to witness when the groundwork has been done and true unity occurs. All feel greatly enrich.
Either my comments were misunderstood, or I misunderstood the thread, either way I apologize for the error in communication. This will be my last post.
My understanding of this thread, further evidenced by the brief post I put up near the top, is that society is more prone to tell women not to get raped than to tell men to not rape. In other words, that male culture is the problem and ergo that part of the problem is that we never criticize male culture. Giving a snapshot/critique of what guy culture is like seemed like a good idea, and I was surprised/dismayed that no man was contributing this. I think men should care more beyond worrying about the safety of their daughters. If there are no men contributing it could be because men are remaining silent out of respect. I tend to assume that people contribute nothing only when they don't care. I do think men should care. I didn't say that men should be the majority, I said it's too bad that there are very few men posting compared to women. If the ratio was 1:2 or 2:3 - especially since we ought to criticize male culture - I obviously would not have said that. I took the lack of male contribution as a lack of male concern.
To use an analogy, on the question of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, I could never ever say that there's a lack of Jewish criticism --- because it's not true. As a Jewish person, I have the enormous privilege that there's a rich country out there that I could legally immigrate to at any time in my life. The crimes are explicitly/ostensibly done to benefit Jewish people, but there are a lot of Jewish people who have the courage to step up, stand up and say "not in my name".
500 Apples - in case you take a peek at this thread again. I am Jewish also and of the "not in my name" contingent. Many of my Israeli acquaintances would join me in stating that while Israel began as a safe haven for Jews from all over the world, it has become the sandbox of some very evil Israili politicians and power-abusing international politicians whose true motives are anything but benign. I am glad that you feel it is important that men care about the oppression of women world-wide (psychological as well as economic).
I doubt that other men are abstaining out of respect, although some could be, but I am glad that you are prepared to do so and to continue speaking up to other men. It is your willingness to do that which will make you a true ally. Your intentions may well have been honourable, however, it did divert the focus and it is the women on this thread who need to learn to maintain their focus on the critical issues of raising children to respect girls/women. i.e. for girls to respect themselves and for male children to respect sisters/mothers/female friends (at least those who are deserving of their respect based on the merits of their character and behaviour). Further, the discussion contained issues of school bullying, teachers, etc... and how to deal effectively with these very important issues.
I acknowledge you for your willingness to place your energy elsewhere on Rabble.
For the record, other males on this thread contributed to the shift in focus not just you. It is such an ingrained habit for some .women to cater to men and to recede when men come forward. In one of my womens, studies classes a single man, by his presence, and by the altered behaviour of the women because of his presence, significantly impacted the dynamic--not for the better unfortunately.
500_Apples, I think it would be beyond amazing if you were to start and facilitate a male-only discussion about male culture / rape culture in the feminism forum. Not sure if other feminist women would support this approach, but it seems to me that it is long overdue.
It had also occurred to me that it would be a good idea to have a male discussion in the feminist forum- for a number of practical reasons. It seemed presumptuous to suggest that. Now I don't have to.
But I was more generally held back from proceeding by what is being reffered to here:
My understanding of this thread, further evidenced by the brief post I put up near the top, is that society is more prone to tell women not to get raped than to tell men to not rape. In other words, that male culture is the problem and ergo that part of the problem is that we never criticize male culture. Giving a snapshot/critique of what guy culture is like seemed like a good idea, and I was surprised/dismayed that no man was contributing this. I think men should care more beyond worrying about the safety of their daughters. If there are no men contributing it could be because men are remaining silent out of respect. I tend to assume that people contribute nothing only when they don't care. I do think men should care.
It comes up all the time on Babble- you should NEVER take people not talking to something as a lack of interest, caring, whatever. Not unless you have raised it a number of times in a number of ways. Its a common fallacy here. And its dead wrong.
You were skeptical that the not speaking is "out of respect". Intergriy was more than skeptical. Reticent and afraid would be closer to the mark. For good reasons: the knowledge that it is the feminist forum, plus the palpable fear of saying something "wrong".
That reluctance to say something people wont like is not specific to this forum in particular. It pervades Babble for a lot of people, and would get a little extra amplification for men when its the feminist forum. And unlike in other forums, that fear would include a great many of the male regulars who would not normally be afraid of being "wrong"... of having 'incorrect thoughts'... because they are part of the mainstream of Babble regulars who informally determine what is 'supportable thinking'. But here, they are going to be as reticent to speak in the feminist forum as the non-regulars are, because here they are not purveyors of correct thinking. So they stay away as much as the non-regular male posters- even more so.
Definitely thread drift. I'll leave it because it might be useful. If not, ignore it.
I think I'm the only male who spoke of daughters by the way. And I didnt speak of worrying about their safety, even implicitly. I'm constrained by what I know. And I've been little around boys, and dont really get them.
Without going back to check to make sure, I think all the males talking in this thread have been in one way or the other addressing the practicalities of the males and oppression in the context of an opening post that is explicitly about stopping rape, and went on from there to broaden into all sexual demands on women and even more generally to respect of women in general.
So I think most if not all of the male particpation here has been following that lead- the lead set by women.
That said, there is still the problem- even in a clearly woman led discussion where the content is not being diverted by men- that men easily end up taking over the discussion, and even if they dont, women start deferring to them.
Ironically, I never come to the feminist forum- for those reasons. But rape and other of the most palpable forms of male oppression matter to me the most [and have a personal resonance], and the whole thrust of the post is what to do about men. So I don't know the rules formal and informal of the forum. Though Babble being babble, I rather doubt there is an expectation that it be only women speaking. If that is true, and you want a discussion to be women only, then you have to explicitly make it that, not expect men to magically get the message. Least of all in a thread that is "what to do about men taking repsonsibility."
That said, there is every reason to expect than men will clue in and initiate a male discussion. Regardless of whether there is to be a women only discussion.
I hate to go volunteering other people. But I think you would be good for that Apple. My approach would be too sociological. I think its not only women that respond more to what you initiated.
It had also occurred to me that it would be a good idea to have a male discussion in the feminist forum- for a number of practical reasons.
Mostly:
We don't want to be distracted by having to argue first principles with men who suddenly come out if the woodwork. There should be lots of patient explanation. But if there's no end to where we are expected to go, nothing but abstractions will get discussed.
Theoretically, we could just say the rules and understandings of the feminist forum apply in this thread. But more convincing and easier to steer clear of "why" discussions if if its just here.
So Ken S and the other guys, join 500 apples on your own forum and leave the rest of us alone. Your long winded contributions are an interference and certainly not beyond amazing
So Ken S and the other guys, join 500 apples on your own forum and leave the rest of us alone. Your long winded contributions are an interference and certainly not beyond amazing
So Ken S and the other guys, join 500 apples on your own forum and leave the rest of us alone. Your long winded contributions are an interference and certainly not beyond amazing
I think Mel Gibson really outlines the common attitude too many men have about women 'asking for it' when they 'dress provocatively'.
The audio of this is extremely awful, so it might be something you want to avoid.
Closing for length