If GUYS were Treated Like GIRLS

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Aristotleded24
If GUYS were Treated Like GIRLS
montgomery

[deleted

quizzical

seems you're missing a lot. the vignettes are self explanatory. 

 

Martin N.

Girls always treat me like that. I though it was the norm.

montgomery

deleted

montgomery

deleted

WWWTT

Oh u just “stumbled” across that?

very funny, I actually met several women that were like that when I was younger

montgomery

deleted

WWWTT

Actually I’m guessing that some women here met a few men that were like that to. I know I have!

quizzical

just loving the manly banter...

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Some of you are new to babble’s feminism forum. Our guidelines are that we discuss topics from a pro-feminist point of view and that sexism has no place here. Some of the banter is close to crossing the line into inappropriate here. Just giving a heads up for the newbies. 

Aristotleded24

montgomery wrote:
As I suggested before, the women have a valid point but they sure the hell didn't make any point with that.

Sometimes taking something real and exaggerating it a little bit can be an effective way to make a point.

JKR

Timebandit wrote:

Some of you are new to babble’s feminism forum. Our guidelines are that we discuss topics from a pro-feminist point of view and that sexism has no place here. Some of the banter is close to crossing the line into inappropriate here. Just giving a heads up for the newbies. 

It looks like Babble could open up a pro Jordan Peterson forum!

Aristotleded24

Anyways, regarding the behaviour that is depicted in this video, I really don't understand it. 3-year-olds understand 2 basic rules of human interaction: keep your hands to your body, and when someone says "STOP," you stop. What's with the guys who do that sort of thing?

Mobo2000

Is that a serious question, Aristotle?  

Why don't you just show them this video, and the many many others like it?   That should straighten them out.  

Or is it's failure to  "effectively make it's point" the point you are making?  

 

montgomery

deleted.

Aristotleded24

Mobo2000 wrote:
Or is it's failure to  "effectively make it's point" the point you are making?

If the video failed to "effectively make it's (sic) point," why have none of the women who posted in this thread had any difficulty understanding it?

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

montgomery - not just you. Here are two examples that could be construed as inappropriate in the forum:

Ha! I never did when I was a teen but it wasn't for lack of looking! 

very funny, I actually met several women that were like that when I was younger

The feminism forum, anti-racism forum and indigenous forum all have certain restrictions. We also ask that men respect the principle that they are not to be the dominant voice in the feminist forum, just as white people are not to be the dominant voices in the anti-racism and indigenous fora, or straight people in the LGBTQ forum.

A good way to tell when you're dominating discussion is when one of the women posting here lets you know, and if more than one comments, that's an extra hint.

Mobo2000

Aristotle, is the video aimed at changing women's minds or behaviours?   I think the women here have already demonstrated ample awareness of these issues, but if that was your goal, ok mission accomplished.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

No, Mobo, it's to point out to men how awful being on the receiving end of such behaviour is, given that empathy for women or the willingness to identify with women is in short supply.

It's satire, people. It's exaggerated and is attempting to make the point and the fact that it's not clear to several posters here indicates that the problem is worse than we thought.

Mobo2000

Sure.   I don't agree with your conclusion though --  one could conclude that "the problem is worse than we thought",  but as plausibly one could conclude that it's a bad video that doesn't know how to speak to or persuade it's intended audience.   Like many of pop culture representations of serious progressive issues, it feels to me like it is speaking to the "already there".    Through it's careless exaggerations it risks provoking a backlash that poisons the well for better videos and better efforts at discussing these issues.  

quizzical

mobo it's not a careless exaggeration it's pretty much on the money according to my life experiences.

"provoking a backlash" ?  we should be worried about men not liking having their actions mirrored back? 

take a hike.

 

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Since I didn't create the video, I can't speak to the intent. However, if it is preaching to the choir, so what? Sometimes you've just got to laugh. If somebody who is not the primary audience sees it and gets the point, so much the better.

Is it possible this wasn't to inform? Is it possible that men who have toxic masculinity issues are not the primary audience? Heaven forfend! How could that be?! ;)

As to the idea that this will "poison the well" for more effective videos... Seriously, why are you policing any such thing? Are we only allowed jokes that pass the weiner test?

montgomery

 

deleted at Ken's request.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

It's not an accusation. In fact, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you just don't know where the lines are in this one because you're new. I'm attempting to let you know what the rules of this particular forum are so that you can participate without any hiccups, rather than call on a moderator to school you. If you're unable to accept friendly advice without ire, it's probably best you don't post in the feminist forum.

If you want to confirm with the moderator, get in touch with MegB.

I don't see the point in sending you a private message - this is pretty pro forma in this part of the board.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

montgomery wrote:

WWWTT wrote:

Oh u just “stumbled” across that?

very funny, I actually met several women that were like that when I was younger

Ha! I never did when I was a teen but it wasn't for lack of looking! 

Nope, not a single one but I met some who thought the same thoughts but were ladylike enough to just hint about it.

As I suggested before, the women have a valid point but they sure the hell didn't make any point with that.

This will be my only post here...montgomery, it's naturally kind of suspicious that you are so invested in discrediting this clip.  I would consider self-deleting my posts here if I were you.  Myself, I found the clip totally on-point and valid.  It's a perfect example of satire, which at its best is reality taken to a slighly-exxagerated extension.  Over and out.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Why would you ask him to delete? I think it was innocent enough, he just didn't know the lay of the land. I had it handled, I thought.

WWWTT

Several things. First off, let’s split apart the different skits in that video. There’s sexual harassment skits from what I remember and sexist ones. As far as the sexism goes, I never met a woman that was. Can’t even recall hearing about a sexist woman? Meaning a woman that discriminated on the basis of being male or female. 

What I was referring to was the sexual harassment. The woman at the end asking a man if she could hold his testicles. I also believe there’s a couple other similar skits in there along those lines. 

Mobo2000

Timebandit said:  "Is it possible this wasn't to inform? Is it possible that men who have toxic masculinity issues are not the primary audience? Heaven forfend! How could that be?! ;)"

Don't understand the sarcasm.  And sure, maybe the intent of the video makers, and Aristotle's intent in posting it was just to amuse the  progressive women and men of babble.   If you find it amusing, enjoy and go in peace .. not my intention to harsh your or anyone else's buzz on this thread.    I do stand behind what I said in post 21, and I'm comfortable with your and quizzical's disagreement with me, so any last word(s) are yours.

As an aside, I did appreciate your post 18 for the newbies, seems something of a step up from how these discussions have gone in the past.

Quizzical - I wouldn't dream of telling you what you should or should not do or worry about.   My post 21 is describing what I worry about.  

 

Aristotleded24

One of the things that comes up a few times in this video is this idea that "I'm going to ask these girls to date me (even if they are total stragners) and if they don't want to then I'm going to insult them." Maybe I had an unusual group of friends, however I know several guys who asked women for dates, the women weren't interested, and these guys still went on to be friends with these women anyways. Sure, it can hurt to be rejected, and you may express that, but why disrespect the person who isn't interested in you?

Something else I found noteworthy is that in the wage gap scene, the boss congratulates "Kimmy," but doesn't mention the guy's name. I think they were trying to say something with that.

quizzical

yup got all the memes presented. i guess men don't realize how much more credit men get in a team situation when it's the women who have done all the work and had the idea in the first place. 

a good example is the black women who made computers happen.

Mobo2000

Aristotle:   I should have been more direct when talking with you earlier.   I briefly wondered if you were doing some sort of post modern meta-troll, but your last post has convinced me you were just careless in your OP.

The video you linked in the OP is from the Wing Girls youtube channel.       Wing Girls have been on Youtube for over 10 years, 370K subscribers, over 272 million views and have 312 videos on their channel.   The channel is monetized,  they sell books and merchandise, and their primary audience is teenage boys and young men looking for dating advice.   They sell a book called "How to get out of the Friend Zone", and publish an address where their (male) viewers are encouraged to send gifts and letters.    The majority of their videos are dating advice, how to french kiss, mixed in with celebrity gossip.   But there is a serious undercurrent of misogyny mixed in there, and I encourage you and any other babblers who think this is a bit of harmless fluff to spend 15 minutes on their channel and watch some of their other videos.   Start with their self described "Best of " section which is composed of top ten lists (I won't link them here):   Top 10 Women to Avoid.   Top 10 Red Flags (Don't Date Her!).   Top 10 Signs She's Crazy (Don't Date Her!).   Top 10 Signs She Has PMS.

Then you can move on to How to Tell if She's FAKE, or The Truth About Girls! if you want to see some of the ideas about women they are encouraging their (mostly male) audience to adopt.

There is nothing progressive, insightful or feminist on this channel, and I encourage babblers not inclined to believe me to go see for themselves.   I will not be recommending it to my kids.   Youtube is 90% cesspool.    For babblers who are parents and want some good feminist centred advice around dating for teens, I recommend Captain Awkward, a feminist advice column that is well written with good practical advice.   Keep your kids away from the Wing Girls.

WWWTT

Thanks for checking the background of the makers of that clip Mobo2000. And the reference!

I can actually go into a rant here, but I’ll leave it at that. 

quizzical

omfg 

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

@quizzical: Quite.

Mobo2000 wrote:

Aristotle:   I should have been more direct when talking with you earlier.   I briefly wondered if you were doing some sort of post modern meta-troll, but your last post has convinced me you were just careless in your OP.

The video you linked in the OP is from the Wing Girls youtube channel.       Wing Girls have been on Youtube for over 10 years, 370K subscribers, over 272 million views and have 312 videos on their channel.   The channel is monetized,  they sell books and merchandise, and their primary audience is teenage boys and young men looking for dating advice.   They sell a book called "How to get out of the Friend Zone", and publish an address where their (male) viewers are encouraged to send gifts and letters.    The majority of their videos are dating advice, how to french kiss, mixed in with celebrity gossip.   But there is a serious undercurrent of misogyny mixed in there, and I encourage you and any other babblers who think this is a bit of harmless fluff to spend 15 minutes on their channel and watch some of their other videos.   Start with their self described "Best of " section which is composed of top ten lists (I won't link them here):   Top 10 Women to Avoid.   Top 10 Red Flags (Don't Date Her!).   Top 10 Signs She's Crazy (Don't Date Her!).   Top 10 Signs She Has PMS.

Then you can move on to How to Tell if She's FAKE, or The Truth About Girls! if you want to see some of the ideas about women they are encouraging their (mostly male) audience to adopt.

There is nothing progressive, insightful or feminist on this channel, and I encourage babblers not inclined to believe me to go see for themselves.   I will not be recommending it to my kids.   Youtube is 90% cesspool.    For babblers who are parents and want some good feminist centred advice around dating for teens, I recommend Captain Awkward, a feminist advice column that is well written with good practical advice.   Keep your kids away from the Wing Girls.

I had a closer look. Dude, irony is just something you're a little deaf to.

What they do is a combination of parody sketches and generally common-sense advice to guys who seem to have bought into some toxic masculinity tropes. Their advice on the "friend zone" pretty much amounts to: stop lurking, get a life, be up front and generally behave like someone a woman would want to date, because your friend-zone persona is a total turnoff to women. I swear, I have given this exact same advice to a fellow I worked with 25 years ago.

And btw, there are guys out there who are terrible kissers. That they're preventing other young women from having to deal with them is a service to the sisterhood, believe me.

So please take it from me, someone who has experience of the many flavours of misogyny, this is not misogynistic.

MegB

Sweet Jebus. This is parody. Something that raises the point of what toxic masculinity looks like using satirical humour.  For all you straight white guys who don't get it, it's like this: Women get harassed. Women get insulted when they shut down unwanted sexual advances. Women are undervalued for their work. Women get groped in bars and clubs. The endless dick pics. The drink spiking. The hypersexualization. All of these things are exaggerated in a humourous way, by turning things around, to make the point that these things are ridiculously not okay when men do them to women.

If you're not up to feminism 101 on this thread howz about a chuckleit'sfunnybecauseit'strue kind of thing and leave it at that.

Aristotleded24

Timebandit wrote:

@quizzical: Quite.

Mobo2000 wrote:

Aristotle:   I should have been more direct when talking with you earlier.   I briefly wondered if you were doing some sort of post modern meta-troll, but your last post has convinced me you were just careless in your OP.

The video you linked in the OP is from the Wing Girls youtube channel.       Wing Girls have been on Youtube for over 10 years, 370K subscribers, over 272 million views and have 312 videos on their channel.   The channel is monetized,  they sell books and merchandise, and their primary audience is teenage boys and young men looking for dating advice.   They sell a book called "How to get out of the Friend Zone", and publish an address where their (male) viewers are encouraged to send gifts and letters.    The majority of their videos are dating advice, how to french kiss, mixed in with celebrity gossip.   But there is a serious undercurrent of misogyny mixed in there, and I encourage you and any other babblers who think this is a bit of harmless fluff to spend 15 minutes on their channel and watch some of their other videos.   Start with their self described "Best of " section which is composed of top ten lists (I won't link them here):   Top 10 Women to Avoid.   Top 10 Red Flags (Don't Date Her!).   Top 10 Signs She's Crazy (Don't Date Her!).   Top 10 Signs She Has PMS.

Then you can move on to How to Tell if She's FAKE, or The Truth About Girls! if you want to see some of the ideas about women they are encouraging their (mostly male) audience to adopt.

There is nothing progressive, insightful or feminist on this channel, and I encourage babblers not inclined to believe me to go see for themselves.   I will not be recommending it to my kids.   Youtube is 90% cesspool.    For babblers who are parents and want some good feminist centred advice around dating for teens, I recommend Captain Awkward, a feminist advice column that is well written with good practical advice.   Keep your kids away from the Wing Girls.

I had a closer look. Dude, irony is just something you're a little deaf to.

What they do is a combination of parody sketches and generally common-sense advice to guys who seem to have bought into some toxic masculinity tropes. Their advice on the "friend zone" pretty much amounts to: stop lurking, get a life, be up front and generally behave like someone a woman would want to date, because your friend-zone persona is a total turnoff to women. I swear, I have given this exact same advice to a fellow I worked with 25 years ago.

And btw, there are guys out there who are terrible kissers. That they're preventing other young women from having to deal with them is a service to the sisterhood, believe me.

So please take it from me, someone who has experience of the many flavours of misogyny, this is not misogynistic.

The crux of the advice they give, on topics ranging from talking to women, asking them out, making a move, handling rejection, responding to being dumped, and even trying to win back an ex-girlfriend is, "if she's not interested in you, no need to be mean, move on, and someone else out there will be interested in you." I have to say I learned quite a bit from advice like this. Sure some of the ideas are expressed in ways that are "politically incorrect," but I think the concepts are clearly communicated. If that is the best way that their target audience receives the message, that's what matters.

I also wanted to respond to the "women to avoid" criticism. Everyone has bad experiences and notices red flags while dating. I believe that there are misogynistic ideas that cause men to ignore or miss red flags while dating. For example, the idea that the man is supposed to pay for the date, and if the woman doesn't reciprocate the interest, she is somehow taking advantage of him. I think that pointing out red flags to look for is a good thing. Instead of a man having a bad dating experience and thinking, "women are out to hurt men," the thinking then becomes, "that was a red flag, I'll move on and respond accordingly." Heck, even on the video of how to handle being dumped, on the issue of getting your stuff back from your ex, they say sometimes you lose things of yours to a relationship, so just let it go and move on.

Mobo2000

Aristotle:   OK.   I disagree on the red flag videos but I've been allowed to say my piece on it and won't take up more room here.   I sincerely apologize for thinking your intentions were other than what they were.   I should have just been direct and asked.    Mea culpa.