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Syndicate
You misunderstand the test. The movie doesn't fail the test if the two women talk once about a man. It fails the test when no conversation occurs between two women that is not about a man. Bridesmaids, for instance, has scenes of women discussing men, but that is only a small portion of the many conversations that occur between women in the film.
More to the point, you misunderstand the significance of making this dynamic visible. Women in real life, of course, have lots of conversations about men, but have even more about a wide range of other subjects. The fact that this diversity of female interaction is rare enough in film that one can have trouble finding movies that satisfy this test shows how poorly women's real experiences are represented in the stories that make up our cultural background.
Thank you Jacob for explaining to me how women think and are underrepresented in art depicting professional-class economic and political life in a way that mirrors our underrepresentation in actual professional-class economic and political life, and how art should reflect classist queenbee values instead of telling a story. Talk to me when hollywood (not the occasional indie film, but you better believe I'm still ticked about that in Better than Chocolate) start casting trans women to play the roles of trans women.
I really needed your help explaining my feminism to me, sir, thank you.
Julie Ferrier was not listed as one of the stars in the foreign comedy film entitled, Micmacs, but I thought she was wonderful playing the part of Elastic Girl. She was a big part of their effort to rescue Bazil from the clutches of CEO's of two arms manufacturing companies. It received 74% from Rotten Tomatoes and is a torrent download. I think it came with Eng subtitles srt file. And if not, it's ez to find.
I didn't realize it had been mentioned in a previous thread, although I'm not surprised. :)
I would imagine that on both Sports Night and West Wing, the female characters did have some conversations that would result in the entire show passing the Bechdel Test. But you're right, RTTG, that one shouldn't go too far in linking this particular test to the strength of female characters - the ability to have conversations that do not involve men does not in itself constitute a particular form of strength.
Also I don't know where to set the bar for a strong character... every strong person has moments of weakness. If a character comes off as strong in 8 scenes out of 10 and weak in the other 2, versus 5 and 5, versus 2 and 8 but those two are *really really* strong and empowering, who passes the threshold?
And where does one set the bar in comedies, where inevitably every character is at times self-deprecating and ridiculous?
I was a big fan of United States of Tara and I was sad to see it go. Toni Collette's character was so incredibly strong, and I think the vulnerabilities around which the show was written only brought out her strength.
Tremé is an amazing show. All the female characters have their great moments - particularly LaDonna (Khandi Alexander), Toni (Melissa Leo) and Janette (Kim Dickens). They really help to anchor the story and imbue it with purpose. Annie (Lucia Micarelli) also comes out of the woodwork into her own in the second season, and is massively talented as a musician.
I'm really looking forward to Newsroom, which, like every Sorkin show, is assuredly going to have some women who show that being strong and being femme aren't mutually exclusive. Fingers crossed this gets seven seasons.
Do oldies count?
If so, how about Maud (Bea Arthur)?
"I really needed your help explaining my feminism to me, sir, thank you."
I doubt you do, which is why I didn't. You did, however, need the Bechdel test explained, which I did. You're welcome.
Saffron Monsoon(Julia Sawalha), daughter of Edina Monsoon in Absolutely Fabulous, a BBC sitcom. Being a high school pupil, and later a university student while child minding her mother and Patsy makes her strong and sometimes cynical. Her drug abusing, alcoholic hippie mother and friend Patsy, even more the man-chasing, drug-abusing alcoholic, are more than a handful for Saffron. Every episode is a laff riot.
Jacob, I understand the test. I'm saying it's bullshit in many programs, such as those with a small and atomistic cast, or where interpersonal relationships with a central figure are key, which I do believe I demonstrated.
Just as Tim Allen's sitcom seemingly based around his ignorance and property destruction was not an indicator of rampant misandry in media, so I've been told, the Bechdel test is not a good metric for demonstrating a show that tests positive for misogyny.
That you felt the need to lecture me on how pop-cultural media portrays women is rather impressive.
Yes. The point of the Bechdel test as I understand it is not to prove whether a film is "feminist" or not, but rather quite the opposite: just to see if it has any female presence in the film at all (and not even a significant presence! See some of the films that pass...). It is a simple, silly and somewhat fun way to highlight how much films are really a product of the male-bodied, heterosexual psyche, of masculine desire. Anyway, it comes from a comic book. Let's not put too much pressure on it, shall we?
CMOT: My point exactly.
Catchfire: Would you care to define, "Male-bodied"?
Thanks for that link, RTTG. Very informative.
You're more than welcome. And yes, I'm really sad that blog is dormant, it's really quite wonderful. I'm a particular fan of the cis privilege checklist, which I mentioned last year in a discussion on Sweden, which, by the way, is eliminating their sterilization requirement for transition, so there's a stride forward for the reproductive freedom of women, wolffian bits and all.
But back to the thread at hand: Studio 60's wonderfully vivacious Harriet Hays... does anyone else enjoy the irony of having a lesbian actress play a straight born-again christian? It'd be like attaching me to portray the eponymous character in a Janice Raymond biopic. (save for the fact that we're both lesbians)
Milla Jovovich - Resident Evil movies.
Arya and Danearys in HBO's A Game of Thrones (awesome book series too!)
"That you felt the need to lecture me on how pop-cultural media portrays women is rather impressive."
You're right of course. I was in a snotty mood. Sorry about that.
Apology accepted Jacob.
I liked Tania played by Rachel Weisz in Enemy at the Gates. Tania is fictional, but the Sovs depended on women a lot during WW II and after. Historically, the women of Russia are symbols of courage by what I've read. I wouldn't want to meet one of them driving a T34 tank down a dark alley at night lest they send me packing and song of the Volga etched in my brain for eternity. Nope nix that.
Pretty sure anyone driving a T34 is someone to avoid, but you've got a point there, Fidel.
I've been hesitant about contributing to this thread, partly because as theleftyinvestor stated upthread:
Also, in trying to come up with characters for this list I found myself thinking about the Smurfette Principle, and how it might affect how we perceive female characters on screen. Given that so many movies are male-centric, I found myself ascribing 'strength' to characters simply for being the female lead in a film.
That said, last night I was reminded of a character who I am confident in adding to this list; Hypatia in the movie, Agora. Some of the acting is pretty bad, and this review offers some valid critiques of the film's historical inaccuracies, and "the retrograde racial subtext of the casting". Despite it's flaws, I found it a deeply affecting, albeit bleak, film.
A few other characters I think would qualify for this list are Vera Drake, Veronica Guerin, Hanna, Margaret, Bernadette, Rose, and Crispina in The Magdalene Sisters, Ana from Real Women Have Curves, and Shosanna Dreyfus and Bridget von Hammersmark in Inglourious Basterds.
Also - Happy International Women's Day!
Actually Tania Chernova was a real person, born American of Russian descent, that the character in the movie was based on. She survived the war and there is a book about her by James Riordan.
http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesweb/products/james+riordan/the+sni...
Strong female characters (From Hark, A Vagrant)
Thanks Policywonk. I had no idea. hey I get a java server error with that link. Hmm! Now it's a-ok? Strange.
Apparently James Riordan's The Sniper is based on his interviews with the real Tania Chernova in 2002.
Meryl Streep in Adaptation.
I can't believe I forgot to include Marjane from Persepolis. And for those who are able to access TVO, it'll be shown on this week's Saturday Night at the Movies.
Grandpa_Bill raises a really interesting point: Too many strong women in media are without significant flaws (well, the directors make them somewhat awkward, ala Sandra Bullock in almost everything) as though a strong woman can't be a multi-faceted and damaged individual.
Yes: you understood what I was thinking about Susan, Streep's character in the film.
From Wikipedia plot summary: Susan decides that Charlie must die. She forces him at gunpoint to drive to the swamp where she will kill him.
As I recall, Susan's decision was put in words that were direct, uncompromising, and shockingly believable: "Kill 'em!"
Certainly I was shocked by those words, because (I have come to understand) they were said by a woman.
Realizing my shock was a minor revelation.
Right, and overall female characters get a lot of scrutiny for the same reason - is the author intentionally writing a strong unflawed woman to combat against stereotypes? When they do introduce a weakness, is it just caving into a stereotype?
I do think people like to be able to identify with characters, so I would imagine that well-written multi-faceted women characters are more relatable than someone who is a little too perfect.