Dutch prisons use psychics to help prisoners contact the dead

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Snuckles
Dutch prisons use psychics to help prisoners contact the dead

Quote:
Paul van Bree, a self-styled "paragnost" or clairvoyant, has been hired by the Dutch prison service to teach prisoners how to "love themselves".

"I tell them that dead relatives are doing well and that they love them. That brings them peace. Big strong men burst into tears," he said.

Mr van Bree, who also publishes annual predictions of the future, claims to be from a long line of clairvoyants, including his mother and grandmother.

The Dutch paranormal, who describes himself as the "happy Buddha" told De Tijd magazine that he is not the only psychic healer employed by the Dutch justice ministry. . . .

. . .The Dutch employment service has also looked beyond the normal to use "regression therapy" and tarot cards to help the jobless.

Uncooperative welfare claimants have been told they will lose benefits unless they accept the guidance of a regression therapist to help them get in touch with their past lives.

 

Read it [url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/netherlands/7521139/Dut....

Snert Snert's picture

Is this what happens when an entire nation is free to smoke as much hash as it wants to? 

Michelle

Hey, they should get this guy to help dead victims talk to their murderers.  Now that could be a rehabilitative tool!

Snert Snert's picture

If I were this "psychic" I think I'd have to be straight-up with these criminals.

"Your dead relatives want nothing to do with you.  They said they taught you better than this and frankly, they're hoping you get sent to that other place so they don't have to spend the afterlife with you".

What the hell kind of government pays public money to fraudsters to tell a bunch of happy lies to criminals?

remind remind's picture

My how intolerant of you snert, I thought you were the happy Libertarian?

And how do you know said criminals dead relatives would hate them and that the psychic is telling lies? That is an expression of your self-imposed reality of intolerance and hate.

 

Refuge Refuge's picture

I would say that any good "paragnost" or whatever they call themselves does serve some type of psychological benefit.  I met one psychic who  am sure was not able to actually talk to ghosts but was very good at reading people and connecting with people.  People would go see him and feel some benefit with talking with dead relatives and be able to put some "closure" on some issues in their lives if only because they were talking to someone who seemed to understand them.  Anything to do with rehabilitating and supporting people in trouble to try and move to a healthy place I am all for and if this shows benefits, irregardless of if he is actually talking to family members or not, I am all for it.

Snert Snert's picture

This is one of those perfect moments.  You're actually asking me how I know the self-described psychic is lying!

 

If this is a dream, let me never wake!

 

But how about this:  even if we pretend, for the sake of argument, that psychics are among us, chatting with dead Grandpa and Grandma.  This psychic said "I tell them that dead relatives are doing well and that they love them."

 

Funny that he seems to already know what the dead relatives are going to say, and funny that it's the same for everyone, eh?

 

And yes, you're absolutely right that I'm intolerant of criminals. Totally intolerant. And so are you, I suspect, if I choose the right criminal.

 

Caissa

He's a psychic; of course, he is lying.

psychics,homeopathy, 9/11, P.T. Barnum.

Snert Snert's picture

I once saw a TV ad for a phone psychic that began "Are you tired of all those pretend psychics?..."

Genius, it was.  And in my mind's eye I could practically hear the legions of the gullible shouting "Yes, yes, OH YES!  Finally a REPUTABLE telephone psychic!"

remind remind's picture

Funny, police services use "psychics" all the time, to solve crimes, and they do not mock them...

many Indigenous peoples  definitely believe in spirit ancestors watching over them, 

apparently only those firmly grounded in "reality"  believe in the single "alive"  reality and also feel they have a right to disparage others who don't. Guess they feel threatened in their secure white picket fence little worlds.

Refuge Refuge's picture

remind wrote:

many Indigenous peoples  definitely believe in spirit ancestors watching over them, 

That is something I never thought of remind.  Medicine men treat through various methods according to FN culture, including the belief in ghosts or spirits affecting the person, so does that mean that if a FN person is in jail they should be denied access to a medicine man because people think that is all just a bunch of whooey?  Considering that FN are vastly over represented in the prison system here, it could be an issue here.

Snert Snert's picture

Quote:
Funny, police services use "psychics" all the time, to solve crimes, and they do not mock them...

 

Funny that those psychics don't know exactly what they're going to say ahead of time, and don't say exactly the same thing each time.

If one of those psychics were to say "I tell them the body is under a bridge and they seem very happy with that" then I think they'd be mocked (and fired). 

Quote:
so does that mean that if a FN person is in jail they should be denied access to a medicine man because people think that is all just a bunch of whooey?

 

That's an interesting question. I certainly think that if someone who's not FN wants an FN psychic, and if this means the public pays said psychic, I think the answer should be no. I see nothing in this story that suggests that these Dutch criminals belong to a specific culture in which psychics are sacred.

 

Anyway, is it not sort of obvious that this psychic isn't really, actually contacting dead relatives, but is instead (like most carnival psychics) simply saying something someone wants to hear? I'm sorry, but how much is a state supposed to spend on charlatans who can convince criminals that even though they raped that old lady, everyone loves them and it's all good? I guess I just don't see that as all that important. Wanna feel better about yourself? Don't wait for a fraud to tell you you're fine as you are. Go work on yourself.

 

 

remind remind's picture

It is an issue refuge, and is part of the colonialist oppressive superiority mentality, as we can see exampled here at babble, so nicely, we can imagine what it is ike in the greater white man's patriarchial society.

Moreover, how many of these "psychic skeptics" believe in a GOD watching over them, that they can beg....oops...pray to?

 

 

VanGoghs Ear

It's funny how alot of people who aren't religious and often mock true believers as fools, will believe in and talk seriously about ghosts or spirits as if there's some difference between these types of beliefs.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Refuge wrote:

remind wrote:

many Indigenous peoples  definitely believe in spirit ancestors watching over them, 

That is something I never thought of remind.  Medicine men treat through various methods according to FN culture, including the belief in ghosts or spirits affecting the person, so does that mean that if a FN person is in jail they should be denied access to a medicine man because people think that is all just a bunch of whooey?  Considering that FN are vastly over represented in the prison system here, it could be an issue here.

I think there is a difference between access to spiritual counsel and the state paying for said access.

You want to talk to your psychic/pastor/shaman?  Have at it.  Just don't expect the public purse to pay for it.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

VanGoghs Ear wrote:

It's funny how alot of people who aren't religious and often mock true believers as fools, will believe in and talk seriously about ghosts or spirits as if there's some difference between these types of beliefs.

Yes, it's peculiar, isn't it?

Snert Snert's picture

Quote:
It is an issue refuge, and is part of the colonialist oppressive superiority mentality, as we can see exampled here at babble, so nicely, we can imagine what it is ike in the greater white man's patriarchial society.

 

So if I don't believe that psychics talk to people's dead relatives, that's what colonialist oppression is? And patriarchy too? Because I'd heard those were bad things, not totally normal, intelligent things.

 

Note that this psychic is NOT First Nations. But if I think he's a fraud, well, clearly I'm being colonialist.

 

Anyway, I'm no psychic. But I do happen to have in my possession a Crystal of Hope, which brings good luck to all who believe in it, and I'll be happy to sell it to you for only $100, remind. What say?

VanGoghs Ear

I think Timebandit - it's easy for some people to dismiss the idea of a paradise way up in the clouds for the righteous and a place deep underground with flames and a hoofed demon who tortures the wicked but they can't completely dismiss the idea of life after death because the alternative is too depressing

Refuge Refuge's picture

Timebandit wrote:

I think there is a difference between access to spiritual counsel and the state paying for said access.

You want to talk to your psychic/pastor/shaman?  Have at it.  Just don't expect the public purse to pay for it.

Well we obviously differ on the idea what the judicial system should accomplish - helping to support people or punishing them.

Generally under the paradigm of actually helping people to become better when they are in trouble currently there are clergy people who are paid staff at facilities but they fall in line with the more traditional beliefs about religion but I have never heard of a paid medicine man at a prison, even if the population of FN is high.  I think that religion can play a big part in helping to support people who need it but not including certain belief systems or only letting them in on a "volunteer" basis is discriminatory.

remind remind's picture

Well one could say there is more evidence for 1 than the other..   ;)

And one coud also observe that those who say they believe in God and are trying to disparage others are indeed part of the colonial supremist white picket fence crowd.

Fidel

Our weak and ineffective governments hire whacko rightwing organizations to do their thinking for them all the time. A lot of what they pawn off on our stooges is discredited voodoo economic theory anyway. I think I'd have more faith in psychics than all of the rightwing "think" tankers combined. Whackos that they are anyway. All those Fraser and Howe and overpaid whackos in the senate should be given pink slips and told to go stand in line in front of the uI-Ei-O office with old McDonald.

VanGoghs Ear

I've entered the twillight Zone

To Fidel -  Physician heal thyself

 

Snert Snert's picture

Quote:
but I have never heard of a paid medicine man at a prison, even if the population of FN is high.

 

Quote:
For some time now, [url=http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/prgrm/abinit/ab6-eng.shtml]CSC[/url] has developed working relationships with the Elders, who provide spirituality, counseling and the connection back to an Aboriginal identity for Aboriginal offenders. Native Liaison Officers have been providing a bridge for better understandings of the cultures. Federal institutions have started introducing Aboriginal-focussed healing programs and curriculum and have initiated the development of Healing Lodges in various parts of the country. Pê Sâkâstêw in the Samson Cree First Nation and the Okimaw Ohci Healing Lodge in Nikaneet First Nation are successful examples of this approach. The Solicitor General, Lawrence MacAuley, has recently stated that he is determined to tackle the challenges of the over-representation of Aboriginal peoples in corrections and that a key element of the strategy will be to create new healing lodges designed with and for Aboriginal peoples and operated by Aboriginal communities.

 

I'm not sure you're doing FN culture any favours by lumping them in with New Age charlatans, but there you go.

 

 

remind remind's picture

new age charlatans? LMAO......

psychics, aka mediums, aka seers, aka witches, aka 'medicine peoples of the Indigenous"  have been around for milleniums, anyone recall Delphi?

Refuge Refuge's picture

Snert wrote:

Quote:
but I have never heard of a paid medicine man at a prison, even if the population of FN is high.

 

Quote:
For some time now, [url=http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/prgrm/abinit/ab6-eng.shtml]CSC[/url] has developed working relationships with the Elders, who provide spirituality, counseling and the connection back to an Aboriginal identity for Aboriginal offenders. Native Liaison Officers have been providing a bridge for better understandings of the cultures. Federal institutions have started introducing Aboriginal-focussed healing programs and curriculum and have initiated the development of Healing Lodges in various parts of the country. Pê Sâkâstêw in the Samson Cree First Nation and the Okimaw Ohci Healing Lodge in Nikaneet First Nation are successful examples of this approach. The Solicitor General, Lawrence MacAuley, has recently stated that he is determined to tackle the challenges of the over-representation of Aboriginal peoples in corrections and that a key element of the strategy will be to create new healing lodges designed with and for Aboriginal peoples and operated by Aboriginal communities.

 

I'm not sure you're doing FN culture any favours by lumping them in with New Age charlatans, but there you go.

I know of these programs.  The Liason is paid, sometimes, but usually not the people who are brought in.  They work on a volunteer basis.  Not quite sure I disagree with them being a volunteer basis as a lot of the occasional work most spiritual people and medicine men that have helped friends have not accepted money but if it is a full time job it would be a different matter, people have to eat.

Not lumping in any people together, just pointing out that different things can help people to get to a place of healing and it can be a slippery slope when judging psychics based on the fact they don't subscribe to traditional beliefs.

Michelle

Actually, the public purse DOES pay for spiritual counselling inside prisons.  They're called "chaplains" and it's a very necessary service.  People don't stop being human because they're in jail. Furthermore, many denominations and faiths have prison ministries where they hold services in jail for inmates.  And I also agree that if there is demand for it, that Indigenous religious practitioners should be brought into jails.  It's the least the state can do when they criminalize Indigenous people at the rate they do.

People have a right to practice their faith and to have access to it, and just as the state pays for everything else for people in jail because they have no means of paying for it themselves since they are locked up and can't earn money, then I don't see why they shouldn't pay for spiritual counselling.

Now, this psychic stuff is pretty funny, I'll admit.  I mean, let's face it, they aren't clergy in any sense of the word.  But if people would rather see a psychic than clergy, then what do I care?

VanGoghs Ear

I agree Michele. Faith usually means the most to those suffering the most and I will respect people's beliefs even if I don't believe in an afterlife.  Which in a additon to the traditional ideas, I include all ghosts, spirits, dead relatives speaking to psychics, ect

Fidel

You're giving me an earache.

Jingles

VanGoghs Ear

That's the name I chose and now it's become apart of me

VanGoghs Ear

Jingles - that will always be funny - I believe that Hercules could have even smirked once(macho guy that he probably was) when he heard one of the latest prophecies to come down from the Temple of Apollo.  "get this - yeah I'll be poisoned by the blood of a half-man, half horse - haha- wait - the best part - I'm the one who poisoned it's blood when I shot it with a poison arrow. haha It's like symbolic or something"

VanGoghs Ear

After poking fun at psychics - I want to say, I don't believe they hurt anyone and certainly should be free to provide this service, which as Remind pointed out as ancient roots.

 

I felt a bit guilty after reading this this morning

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/beheading-looms-for-tv-psychic-in-saudi-arabia-lawyer-says/article1519678/

 

The lawyer of a Lebanese TV psychic who was convicted in Saudi Arabia for witchcraft says her client could be beheaded this week.

 

I hope she is released unharmed.

Snert Snert's picture

Quote:
People have a right to practice their faith and to have access to it, and just as the state pays for everything else for people in jail because they have no means of paying for it themselves since they are locked up and can't earn money, then I don't see why they shouldn't pay for spiritual counselling.

 

Including Scientology "auditing"? That can cost tens of thousands per believer. But if we pay phony-baloney psychics, how would we say no?

VanGoghs Ear

there are obviously limits - even christians in prison don't get real wine for communion - they have limited freedom of religion which is fair since they are in prison.

 

 

Snert Snert's picture

The reason they don't get real wine is because it's prison, and wine is a form of alcohol.  Do they get bread of some sort?  If so, the wine will be "baked in", as it is in many Catholic eucharist services.

A Scientology audit doesn't involve alcohol or drugs... it's said to be more like taking confession.

But am I sensing some reluctance to provide this? 

VanGoghs Ear

scientology is taken about as seriously as satanism as far as religions go - or maybe I'm wrong - they're not all equal are they?

Snert Snert's picture

From the point of view of accomodation religious beliefs are essentially equal.  It's not the religion we're accomodating, it's the believer.

If we got to judge, and only had to accomodate the ones we "take seriously" then on what grounds would we be paying psychics???

Given that, should taxpayers be helping imprisoned Scientologists realize their spiritual potential, or no?

Fidel

Capitalism is a lot like religion, except that it instead of an afterlife as a reward for the faithful, capitalism only has the economic long run to promise billions of a desperate humanity but never delivers the goods. It's a kind of an escape hatch for when things don't seem to be happening according to a grander plan, which tends to be forever and ever when it comes to capitalism. JM Keynes said in the economic long run, we're all dead. And that's certainly true of those tens of millions dying of the long run around the democratic capitalist thirdworld each and every year according to plan.

Snuckles

VanGoghs Ear wrote:

scientology is taken about as seriously as satanism as far as religions go - or maybe I'm wrong - they're not all equal are they?

 

They're all equally ridiculous.

 

 

Sineed

Michelle wrote:

Actually, the public purse DOES pay for spiritual counselling inside prisons.  They're called "chaplains" and it's a very necessary service.  People don't stop being human because they're in jail. Furthermore, many denominations and faiths have prison ministries where they hold services in jail for inmates.  And I also agree that if there is demand for it, that Indigenous religious practitioners should be brought into jails.  

This is correct - and 1st nations practitioners are brought into jails also.

Not only that, all jails in Ontario are pork-free, in deference to religious diets.

Refuge Refuge's picture

Sineed wrote:

Michelle wrote:

Actually, the public purse DOES pay for spiritual counselling inside prisons.  They're called "chaplains" and it's a very necessary service.  People don't stop being human because they're in jail. Furthermore, many denominations and faiths have prison ministries where they hold services in jail for inmates.  And I also agree that if there is demand for it, that Indigenous religious practitioners should be brought into jails.  

This is correct - and 1st nations practitioners are brought into jails also.

This thread is not about access to spiritual practitioners, this thread is about if people believe that the government should pay for these services. I know there are cases of denial but the thread is not about denial of spiritual counsel, it is about the payment of spiritual counsel when it is provided.  I, personally, have not heard of any case where alternate practitioners have been paid and know 3 Buddhist spiritual pratitioners who have gone into prisons and know 2 FN people who requested spiritual counsel and the counsel was not paid.  But as mentioned by Michelle I know of many mainstream religions which follow Christian or Judaism beliefs who are paid with not even a whisper of controversy.  When people start objecting to pay for spiritual practitioners based on the validity of their beliefs when there should be payment (see below my earlier comment) that is the slippery slope that I was talking about.

Refuge wrote:

I know of these programs.  The Liason is paid, sometimes, but usually not the people who are brought in.  They work on a volunteer basis.  Not quite sure I disagree with them being a volunteer basis as a lot of the occasional work most spiritual people and medicine men that have helped friends have not accepted money but if it is a full time job it would be a different matter, people have to eat.

Snert wrote:

Quote:
People have a right to practice their faith and to have access to it, and just as the state pays for everything else for people in jail because they have no means of paying for it themselves since they are locked up and can't earn money, then I don't see why they shouldn't pay for spiritual counselling.

 

Including Scientology "auditing"? That can cost tens of thousands per believer. But if we pay phony-baloney psychics, how would we say no?

Obviously if the prison system has a budget which includes payment for spiritual counsel and most (even if not all at this point) spiritual counsel would be paid out of that.  If the spiritual counsel wants more than the budget will allow the system will have to say no.  If people believe that is unfair than they should lobby to change the budget and provide more money to prison systems so that tens of thousands can be paid to a spiritual practitioner.  If not enough people believe it should be changed for scientology, no lobbing.  I know I wouldn't lobby myself but hey, if someone else wants to lobby for those large payments from the prison system because they think it will help the people in prison, go for it!

 

Fidel

VanGoghs Ear wrote:

I've entered the twillight Zone

To Fidel -  Physician heal thyself

To the ear:

I'm not a religious fundamentalist.

I'm not an atheist.

I'm not an agnostic.

I can accept none of those extremist points of view given what scientists understand about things in general today.

I am a possibilian.

VanGoghs Ear

good to see you don't see absolutes in everything

Tommy_Paine

 

Recently, I was witness to someone on the public payroll, in a place where people were not free to come and go, talk to a person who shared his religious beliefs.  No harm in that, except the person spoke loud enough, and chose his words in such a way that it was a flimsy pretext to prostyletise to others in the room.

 

Give 'em and inch and they'll take a mile.

Thing is, when it comes to religion and other hokum, we should be more vigilant to exclude it in places where people are a captive audience, and/or in a condition that makes them vulnerable to such hokum.

It's no coincidence that these people want access to people who are confined and not in a normal state of mind.

 

Fidel

"Scientists willing to risk their reputations on higher dimensions soon found themselves ridiculed by the scientific community. Higher-dimensional space became the last refuge for mystics, cranks, and charlatans." - Michio Kaku, physicist given an inch and taking a mile

Tommy_Paine

 

 

Yes, let's use physics to allow con artists to exploit the vulnerable.

Snert Snert's picture

Quote:
 If not enough people believe it should be changed for scientology, no lobbing.  I know I wouldn't lobby myself but hey, if someone else wants to lobby for those large payments from the prison system because they think it will help the people in prison, go for it!

We seem to have gone from assuming spiritual counsel to be a right, to spiritual counsel being permitted on the condition that it's inexpensive, and that a majority agrees we should pay for it (which, really, becomes the question of "how plausible are these religious beliefs?")

Now for the record, I'm personally GLAD that we don't pony up the money so that some Scientologist criminal can proceed to become the best Thetan he can be, because I think that would be a giant waste of public funds, but then this speaks back to my original point that funding scam-artist "psychics" is also a giant waste of public funds.

Fidel

Tommy_Paine wrote:
Yes, let's use physics to allow con artists to exploit the vulnerable.

I think there are people with real psychic abilities. The cops have used them and so has the military. And then there are scam artists. Of course, there are scam artists in just about every area of endevour, from crooked politicians to fly by night plumbers and carpenters to health care fraud. Several years ago, health care fraud in the US was estimated to be worth more than $30 billion a year. US and international health care services companies have been clamouring for a piece of the Canadian health care pie for many years. Wrt psychics, I think the scammers outnumber those with real talent.  There are charlatans in too many areas of the economy. Some say economists and politicians are paid to lie all the time. And I think it's possible that one day the human mind-body paradox will be better understood by science. Someday we will understand more of everything in greater detail.  As Michio kaku said about Victorian era charlatans in London, the prosecution couldn't prove that other worlds do not exist. The scammers were allowed to go on unregulated. I think that as it is for any professional, word does get around as to which of them does good work.

Snert Snert's picture

That leads me to what I think is a great win-win idea.

On the off chance that there's a real psychic out there who could do prisoners some good, and in recognition of the fact that the majority of self-identified psychics are scammers and con artists, I propose we pay real psychics handsomely, from the public purse.

The fee will be in a box, buried somewhere within county limits.  Have at it, psychic.  Finders keepers.

VanGoghs Ear

You could hire psychics by holding the job interviews at an unidentified place and time, whoever makes to the interview is hired.

Fidel

Snert wrote:

That leads me to what I think is a great win-win idea.

On the off chance that there's a real psychic out there who could do prisoners some good, and in recognition of the fact that the majority of self-identified psychics are scammers and con artists, I propose we pay real psychics handsomely, from the public purse.

The fee will be in a box, buried somewhere within county limits.  Have at it, psychic.  Finders keepers.

Randi's a quack not a scientist.

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