American Islamophobia
August 11, 2010 - 12:14pm
This is bloody sick.
In protest of what it calls a religion "of the devil," a nondenominational church in Gainesville, Florida, plans to host an "International Burn a Quran Day" on the ninth anniversary of the September 11, 2001, attacks.
The Dove World Outreach Center says it is hosting the event to remember 9/11 victims and take a stand against Islam. With promotions on its website and Facebook page, it invites Christians to burn the Muslim holy book at the church from 6 p.m. to 9 p.m.
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/07/29/florida.burn.quran.day/index.html?i...
Hmmm.
I'd be interested to know where they think they are going to find a bookstore or publisher to supply them with a steady supply of Quran for burning. I expect anyone offended by this action might be interested to know too.
They haven't advanced very far since the days when there were lynchings. This is essentially what the 9/11 Commission was about - the lynching of a billion people who by wild coincidence happen to live in oil-rich and strategically significant countries far away. We must attack them for humanitarian reasons. It's an old fascist ploy to march their armies across sovereign borders without an invitation. And then our fearless leaders play dumb when our soldiers are treated badly in host nations.
Host nations? Is that like the dog as host to the flea, or the alder as host to the Virginia creeper?
This action is not aimed at affecting foreign policy; rather, it's about raising mobs against a large, long-established minority of of US citizens. Everywhere, they (the same kind of evildoers who dreamed up this little clambake) are inciting people against their Muslim neighbours, protesting the building of mosques and cultural centers, spouting slander and lies on mass media. Pretty soon, it will be necessary to offer Muslim Americans a choice between protective custody behind barbed wire and a ticket offshore. I wonder who'll be next.
Freedom has a new sound. It's the sound of shock and awe over Islamic and oil-rich countries, The religious right in the US is doing a good job of demonizing the new and improved colder war enemy. Fascists tend to identify ordinary people in general as the enemy and never the industrialists or bankers, monarchs or other members of the ruling class. We are supposed to learn to fear and loathe other ordinary people in order to justify US style spending on military in Canada.
Washington D.C. public transit poster, 2005Freedom has a new sound. It's the sound of shock and awe over Islamic and oil-rich countries, The religious right in the US is doing a good job of demonizing the new and improved colder war enemy. Fascists tend to identify ordinary people in general as the enemy and never the industrialists or bankers, monarchs or other members of the ruling class. We are supposed to learn to fear and loathe other ordinary people in order to justify US style spending on military in Canada.
Washington D.C. public transit poster, 2005
Oh look, there is a token African-American at the very back of the
busposter. Let's see, 2007 estimates break down the population of Washington as 55.6% "black or African-American" (down from a high of 70% in 1970).... I wonder what peculiar historical circumstances make it less likely that they are using public transport than the red-headed woman or sandy hair/blond chappie in the front (the same 2007 estimates peg the "white" population at 36.3%)[before tagging "flag as offensive", please ensure that your sarcasm detectors are properly engaged]
@ Fidel #4
Wow. I wonder if that is actually some covert bit of subversive art.
I could see the satire going right over the heads of the bureaucrats who approved it, but I have a hard time believing that the graphic designer could draw it without realizing the obvious homage to fascist/soviet realism (in a pastel motif for the modern starbucks crowd).
It's just too perfect. I want one.
Yes, I guess that poster is offensive on that level, too. Praying at a gas station? You could be stopped by the feds and questioned about your suspicious and unAmerican activities.
Hmmm, stylisticly it reminded me a lot of New Deal/WPA murals [lots of images here] although the vertical grab rail does indeed look a lot like a flag pole.... the red background is a hoot.
I think they've been dealing with Hollywood similar to the way Goebbels and the propaganda wing used film shows to demonize enemies. Everywhere we go we are exposed to violent themes of war in movies and video games. Nowadays a blockbuster movie tends to depict destruction of cities on a scale of Stalingrad or Horoshima and Nagasaki. I think we're being conditioned to accept the ultimate solution to the latest crises of capitalism. They already have a plan written up to attack Iran.
@ bagkitty
Absolutely. It would be interesting to see pictures of it in the street. I KNOW it is offensive, but it just screams xenophobic seige mentality so loudly there must be plenty of people who see it and realize what it says about their society. I think it is propaganda that cuts both ways.
And I didn't even think grab rail. I just thought flagpole.
Now if they could come up with a patriotic poster to get people to actually RIDE THE BUS instead of driving their cars it wouldn't be such a bad thing.
Ramadan kareem for those who are observing and celebrating!
I don't want ito appropriate another culture, so let me start by saying I'm not a believer, but Mr. Ripple is Muslim. I like celebrations and tolerance. He is from Iraq - Kurdish and Sunna ([sarcasm] not one of those good muslims that Green Bone directed us to [/sarcasm]).
We have been on a cleaning jag for several days. Our home sparkles, the laundry's done, the good dishes have been hand-washed and air dried, polished to a shine by a clean, dry tea towel. The pantry, fridge and freezer are stocked (as much as possible local, organic, humanely raised, fairly traded). My bottle of Glenlivet has been relegated to the garage for the month.
It's a long fast when Ramadan falls during the summer months. Imsak (the start of the fast) was about 4am this morning and Iftar (the breaking of the fast) is not until after 8:30pm. I don't fast, but try to be respectful of Mr. Ripple as he does. We had breakfast at 3:30am - eggs, bread, yogurt, fruit, cucumbers, olives, spinach and feta pies, and some cold homemade pizza from yesterday. Lots of water. No tea or coffee, because we went back to bed after prayer. The kids didn't get up with us this morning, but I imagine they will from time to time over the next month.
We've spent the day together, called family around the world (55 degrees in Baghdad today - how's that for global warming? - with electricity running one hour on, five hours off), watched a movie. I watched as my husband, son, and daughter prayed together (really quite beautiful, actually). We read and discussed a couple of surahs from the Quran.
We've strung some Ramadan lights (it's an Egyptian tradition, but it plays well at our house) and are cooking up a feast. The house smells delicious. When fasting, it's not just food and drink, but mean words and anger so Mr. has been nothing but sweetness and love.
Al salamu alaykum (Peace be upon you).
Wa-Alaikum-Salaam.
Geez, Ripple, post more often, will you?
As 24 Jewish, Muslim and Christian students from the Toronto area and Galilee region of Israel hugged, laughed and said tearful good-byes to one another, peace in the Middle East looked a little closer.
The students had just completed 10 days at the Kids4Peace camp at the YMCA Cedar Glen Camp north of Toronto.
This is the fifth year that students from Israel have come to Canada for the Kids4Peace camp, a project that began at St. George's College with co-operation from St. George's Cathedral. Both are part of the Episcopal diocese of Jerusalem.
http://www.anglicanjournal.com/nc/news-items/article/kids4peace-camp-fos...LOL... thats got to be a gag or joke of some kind.
The Islamophobia cropping up in the USA is not...
More weirdness from NY:
http://fromtheold.com/news/celebrating-tolerance-gay-bar-right-next-grou...
Islam isn't just Ramadan/Eid parties and the like. This is also a religion that prescribes the death penalty for apostacy, threatens to kill people who make cartoons, considers Baha'is fit to be murdered (many have been, in Iran, through various regimes), despises homosexuals and treats women like third-class citizens. In other words, everything you hate about Fundamentalist Christianity, but ramped up a hundredfold. Quit being such dhimmwits [sic].
Hi Green Bone, that's anti-Islam prejudice and doesn't belong on babble. I know you haven't had a chance to read your last warning I gave you here, so I won't ban you yet. But don't post racist shit like that again.
First thing I read this a.m. was this article in the Guardian about anti-Muslim protests in a number of places in the U.S., a "surge," as the Guardian calls it, now fuelled by absurd reactions to the mosque that is to be built in the neighbourhood of the WTC. Some of the usual suspects (Newt Gingrich, Sarah Palin, etc) are getting in on the act.
Hi Green Bone, that's anti-Islam prejudice and doesn't belong on babble. I know you haven't had a chance to read your last warning I gave you here, so I won't ban you yet. But don't post racist shit like that again.
There really is a double standard here. The people on this forum are free to attack Christians as religious wackos, Jews as Zionist-imperialists, Falun Gong practitioners as some sort of anti-Chinese CIA plot...but you fawn over Islam, even in its most fundamentalist, mysogenistic and homophobic forms, tossing off cute Ramadan greetings. You dismiss the criticisms of people who have actually lived under Islamic law (e.g., Aayan Hirsi Ali), deny stories of women and girls killed for apostacy, and refuse to admit that things like murdering your daughter because she won't wear a bag over her head is something that never happened in Canada before large-scale Muslim immigration. You never take radical Muslim clerics like Aly Hindy, Syed Soharwardy and Mohammed Elmasry to task for their antisemitism, gross gender biases and mysogeny, homophobia, anti free-speech actions and far-right sociopolitical views. You traffic in tinfoil hat-crazy conspiracy theories about 9/11, refusing to admit the fact that a plot launched from a mosque in Hamburg lead to the mass murder of nearly 3,000 civilians--in the name of Islam. You call our troups "war criminals," but laud the Tamil Tigers--a group responsible for suicide bombings, extortion, drug running and child soldiers.
Despite the fact that increasing the population (duh!) means building more housing, using more water and producing more garbage, Catchfire et al. cling to the nonsense that urban sprawl and water shortages can be prevented by New Urbanist planing and low-flush toilets. You cling to the idea that all Canadian immigrants are poor people, when the Immigrant Investor/Entrepreneur and middle-upper classes are what represents the norm. You practise Doublethink by believing that adding over a quarter million people to Canada anually (100,000 to Toronto alone) isn't causing urban sprawl, or stress on local water supplies. And you hide your heads in the sand, when the fact that 71% of population growth is due to immigration. You people are merely parroting the corporate (banks, real estate income trusts, developers, construction firms) line that there is somehow magically no connection between population growth--most of which comes from immigration--and urban sprawl.
And the people here confuse "racism" with legitimate criticism of culture: mysogeny, homophobia and religious intolerance, something you don't consider "racist" when it comes to criticizing Christians, or non-minority Canadians and Americans. "Racism" has crept into an all-encompassing censor word for anything that challenges your anti-western, antisemitic, Christophobic and culturally self-loathing narrative. You find "sexism" under every tree...except when it's in the form of burqas, niqabs, honour killings, child brides and female genital mutillation. And you bristle at "hate facts"--things like the reality that people in developing countries have birthrates many times higher than people in the developed world, something which is not environmentally or economically sustainable. And there was nothing "racist" in my point about host cultures and tolerance: I was merely pointing out that, historically, intercultural friction has been a reality whenever there was a large influx of people from a different culture, including between non-Christian "people of colour" (what a nauseatingly neo-Jim Crow term) like the Buddhist Sinhalese and Hindu-Muslim Tamils. (Non-white, non-Christian people hating other non white people?! How is that possible?) The "no hate-facts" climate of censorship here stifles any level of intelligent discourse, turning this whole forum into an internet era version of a politically correct 1990s university campus.
Please feel free to kick me off of 'Rabble.' This forum pretends to be a place to debate issues, but its nothing more than a sad collection of old Trotskyists, tinfoil-hat Truthers and anti-occidentalists, all "discussing" issues within a sliver-thin ideological wedge.
There are many Christians like myself who have to draw the line at domestic terrorism perpetrated by the gladio gang. Sorry, it's just the way our mothers raised us I guess.
Um... Greenbone, I don't know where you live, but on the prairies where I do there is actually room for a lot more people, particularly if we make economic choices to focus on settling people outside of cities, something that will help reduce that urban sprawl. And the fact remains Canada still has one of the lowest population densities in the world. So your argument (which properly belongs back in the thread where I made these points once already) is a little thin.
Excuse me if I don't thank you for the demonstration of insulting Islam and a number of other things, including reducing people here to a bunch of cookie cutter forms. Sorry, but I don't fit any of the molds you mentioned.
I have another stereotype for you: people who get pissed off and decide to make the biggest stink they can as they flounce out the door, thinking they're making a great blow for freedom. I have seen it a few times, in quite a few places.
I guess if you're resigned to getting the boot you can be as rude as you want, but there are better ways of sharing your ideas, especially in the middle of someone's holiday.
That's a big IF that isn't gonna happen. In places like Grande Prairie, they've already leapfrogged the Power Center they built ten years ago for a newer Power Center further out of town. They're already building a bypass for their bypass. That's the prairies, where there is, allegedly, a lot more room for more people. What you're forgetting is that all that prairie room is currently occupied by other species, and those ecosystems don't react well with all those people shitting on it. I happen to believe that those other creatures have a right to be there, and we don't have the right to continue appropriating it to support the uncontrolled reproduction of our parasitic species. And if you do value human species survival (though I can't understand why anyone would), you should be concerned that all that prairie room being bulldozed to make chipboard mansions for all those people is some of the best and last remaining agricultural soil left on the planet. Once it's paved over, it's gone forever. You can't eat a Best Buy.
Where Greenbone goes off the rails is where he blames immigrants for the tide of humanity. That's just boilerplate xenophobia. It's BEEF: Blame Everyone Else First. It's ignorant and childish.
Religion is a useful tool only for the ruling elite. It doesn't matter to them what the particulars of the belief system may be, as long as the masses can be controlled with it. In the US, you could easily flip the two religions around, and all those Christians burning the Koran would happily burn the New Testament, without even a blip of conscience.
In other words, everything you hate about Fundamentalist Christianity, but ramped up a hundredfold. Quit being such dhimmwits [sic].
Not exactly a hundredfold. All those barbaric rules in Islam were actually copied from the old testament. Same God, same rules.
@ Jingles #22
Answering you over here:
http://www.rabble.ca/babble/environmental-justice/no-smart-growth
I don't want to take this thread any further off course
You've basically described what's happened to Saskatoon over the last 15 years. We have clover leaves exiting onto other clover leaves without any of them really going anywhere. I call it "Edmonton Envy," or sprawl for sprawl's sake. The city planners claim that the citizens demand hideous new subdivisions, while the mayor thinks expansion makes the town look like a hapennin' place, which in turn attracts business to make us all wealthy.
It's bloody madness, if you ask me.
India is crowded. Cities in China, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Palestinian territories are crowded. Canada is not crowded.
We need more smart people in Canada. We need some new blood. I say let 'em in to Canada. The more the merrier. Let someone else have a go at making it a real country.
Ramadan kareem for those who are observing and celebrating!
I don't want ito appropriate another culture, so let me start by saying I'm not a believer, but Mr. Ripple is Muslim. I like celebrations and tolerance. He is from Iraq - Kurdish and Sunna ([sarcasm] not one of those good muslims that Green Bone directed us to [/sarcasm]).
We have been on a cleaning jag for several days. Our home sparkles, the laundry's done, the good dishes have been hand-washed and air dried, polished to a shine by a clean, dry tea towel. The pantry, fridge and freezer are stocked (as much as possible local, organic, humanely raised, fairly traded). My bottle of Glenlivet has been relegated to the garage for the month.
It's a long fast when Ramadan falls during the summer months. Imsak (the start of the fast) was about 4am this morning and Iftar (the breaking of the fast) is not until after 8:30pm. I don't fast, but try to be respectful of Mr. Ripple as he does. We had breakfast at 3:30am - eggs, bread, yogurt, fruit, cucumbers, olives, spinach and feta pies, and some cold homemade pizza from yesterday. Lots of water. No tea or coffee, because we went back to bed after prayer. The kids didn't get up with us this morning, but I imagine they will from time to time over the next month.
We've spent the day together, called family around the world (55 degrees in Baghdad today - how's that for global warming? - with electricity running one hour on, five hours off), watched a movie. I watched as my husband, son, and daughter prayed together (really quite beautiful, actually). We read and discussed a couple of surahs from the Quran.
We've strung some Ramadan lights (it's an Egyptian tradition, but it plays well at our house) and are cooking up a feast. The house smells delicious. When fasting, it's not just food and drink, but mean words and anger so Mr. has been nothing but sweetness and love.
Al salamu alaykum (Peace be upon you).
وعليكم السلام wa 3alaykom Essalaam!
Ramadhan Mubarak, Ripple! Mahmud is fasting but not Mrs Mahmud, who is non-Muslim. Thank you for the reminder that fasting is not only abstaining from food, drinks (and for those who don't know) smoking and sex, but also from mean words, gossiping and anger.
Reading what you had for breakfast (Souhour) made my mouth watering.
White House and Pentagon fear burning Qu'ran could harm American troops
The Obama administration has denounced a plan by a Florida pastor to burn copies of the Qur'an on Sept. 11, adding to criticism from the U.S. State Department and the top NATO commander in Afghanistan.
The White House said Tuesday that Terry Jones's threat to burn copies of the Muslim holy book could endanger U.S. troops abroad, echoing similar comments by the State Department and by Gen. David Petraeus.
White House spokesman Robert Gibbs noted that Petraeus had already warned that images of a burning Qur'an would be used by extremists to incite violence in Muslim countries.
"Any time activity like that puts our troops in harm's way would be a concern to this administration," Gibbs told reporters.
Too bad they couldn't simply denounce it as a violent, fascist action that has no place in a democracy. And the media is simply reporting this as another "quirky" story. As if this "event" simply arose out of thin air and bears no relation to foreign policy or widespread MSM Islamophobia.
If an "artist" took a shit on a Koran and put it in a Gallery in NY would it be better, worse, the same? Would anyone here defend an artist\s right to do that? Are some religions symbols off limits or all of them or is it only about who's doing it and why they are that matters?
If an "artist" took a shit on a Koran and put it in a Gallery in NY would it be better, worse, the same? Would anyone here defend an artist\s right to do that? Are some religions symbols off limits or all of them or is it only about who's doing it and why they are that matters?
This hypothetical reminds me of the "Piss Christ" piece. I don't think that art (offensive or not) should be restricted (or supported) by government in any way. But, that does't mean that such art cannot or should not be criticized for its offensiveness.
Too bad they couldn't simply denounce it as a violent, fascist action that has no place in a democracy.
Fascist indeed. But "violent"?
Can individual citizens -- other than Gym teachers -- be fascist?
Sven: yes, violent. Words and actions can be violent even if they inflict no physical pain. Make no mistake: this action intends to cause harm to a large population. Violent indeed.
Snert: that's an interesting question, I think. My short answer would be probably, but only if fascism was alread operating in some way in the culture at large. At any rate, I called the action fascist, which it is. And much of America (and the West) is complicit in it. I was fliping by Keith Olbermann last night and he was making a big deal about all the Republican politicians who were silent about how this Qu'ran burning would harm the troops--that is, he was using it to score partisan points rather than denounce it unequivocally as a racist act of violence. The line from the White House and pentagon too focuses on the "troops" rather than the damage this is doing to the social fabric of the nation. And of course, you can't extricate this action from the campaign of violence and aggression the West has waged against Muslim nations for a decade (or half century, take your pick) and the systemic, casual Islamophobia saturating Western media.
Show me an artist who does this and a NY gallery that will show it and we can talk. Otherwise, this is just diversive, reactionary nonsense. Yes, context matters, as always. It's a question of power and effect.
So General Petraeus spoke out against the buring
(if there was a real concern about riling up extremists they wouldn't be over there in the first place, or at least they wouldn't have let places like Abu Gharby happen, but that's a topic for another time I suppose.)
The "good" Pastor yesterday said he still thought it was the right thing to do but he would "pray on it".
Today it seems his praying has yielded some results ... "Jesus would burn Korans"
Show me an artist who does this and a NY gallery that will show it and we can talk. Otherwise, this is just diversive, reactionary nonsense. Yes, context matters, as always. It's a question of power and effect.
There are examples of what VGE is talking about, but it is still a red herring, IMO.
Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali's film Submission, The Satanic Verses, and the famous cartoons of Mohammed are all examples of art which has been perceived as an attack on the faith. I'm not a Muslim, but I can imagine that one serious indignity (a graven image of the prophet) is probably just as offensive as another, so I don't think we need to have the scatological factor.
But artistic freedom is not a blanket excuse to do whatever you want. After all, no one has the freedom to throw a can of gas on someone and light a match as an expression of art. For that matter, use of any offensive material in art depends entirely on the context, as you say Catchfire.
Besides... this isn't art. It is a religious and political act. Shock art exists, but going off on that tangent just takes us away from the issue at hand.
(edit)
After all, defending the freedom to burn books is a bit of a vicious circle.
I would think that has more to do with causing grave material harm to someone, yes?
But here's the question, and sadly it's a "Yes" or "No" question: should art be allowed to offend?
I would think that has more to do with causing grave material harm to someone, yes?
But here's the question, and sadly it's a "Yes" or "No" question: should art be allowed to offend?
Sorry. It's not "yes or no".
I think I said already it depends on the the work and it depends on the offense. If you want to talk about this let's do it somewhere else. I'm not interested in hijacking this thread further and I won't respond again.
Show me an artist who does this and a NY gallery that will show it and we can talk. Otherwise, this is just diversive, reactionary nonsense. Yes, context matters, as always. It's a question of power and effect.
yes I know no Gallery wouold show this - that's the point.
This clown is trying to get attention and it's working - the only thing similar I can think of now is when Marilyn Manson said he was going to rip us a bible on stage in some southern city. He also got attention and people with picket signs, ect.
They're not destoying these books to keep people from reading them - they are destroying them as symbols, like burning a flag or some other items symbolic of something - in the end it's just a thing.
So despite the hateful nature of this 2 bit carny preacher and his little group , the right to protest in whatever way, including destroying sacred symbols should be allowed.
Hearkens back to the burning of Beatles albums in protest of John's comments about the relative popularity of Jesus of Nazareth.
Sven: yes, violent. Words and actions can be violent even if they inflict no physical pain. Make no mistake: this action intends to cause harm to a large population. Violent indeed.
I guess you have a much more elastic definition of "violence" than I do.
If offending people is a species of "violence," then gawd help us.
@ VGE #39
I don't think it is a matter of rights, because I don't think anyone is actually trying to take legal steps to stop him.
That said, I think it's a terrible, offensive thing to do. It is also completely mis-directed; he's using the spectre of a terrorist attack to whip up religious hatred.
@ VGE #39
I don't think it is a matter of rights, because I don't think anyone is actually trying to take legal steps to stop him.
That said, I think it's a terrible, offensive thing to do. It is also completely mis-directed; he's using the spectre of a terrorist attack to whip up religious hatred.
But, I think some people would consider this "a matter of rights" -- specifically, that this joker does not (or at least should not) have any right to do this.
Every person on this thread agrees that what this asshat is planning on doing is odious. But, when this planned action is characterized as being "violence", that characterization at the very least hints at the idea that this act should therefore be prevented (i.e., this guy does not have the right to do what he is planning because it is "violence" -- and society has every right to stop individuals from engaging in violence).
Fair enough. There's a new thread.
There is a massive difference between a well-established, upper-middle class Indian-British author born into a Muslim family commiting an act of blasphemy against Islam in a complex narrative and the consequent controversy which was due more to the specific historical moment than the blasphemy itself, and some imaginary "artist" defecating on a Qu'ran and then finding some "gallery" to display this "art." Any connection of these two events--one real and one utterly abstract--betrays an apalling ignorance for how art is conceived, produced, disseminated and digested.
Indeed, while it is perhaps conceivable that someone--even a Muslim artist--would attempt to produce such a piece, call it art, and attempt to get it shown at galleries, it is astonishing to me that such an absurdly hypothetical incident would be brought up in some attempt to explain or account or even excuse the violent, racist and dangerous actions of this idiot pastor, the enabling MSM and the architect of the entire conflict and its discourse, the war machine of the United States.
Nowhere have I said that this asshole does not have the "right" to do what he is doing. (Although, imo the discourse of "rights" rarely favours the interests of the oppressed and marginalized.) If anything, I condemn the media for their "fair and balanced" reportage of this fascist action, and I vigourously applaud the actions of those who are standing up and speaking up against the side-effects of a racist, toxic system.
Nowhere have I said that this asshole does not have the "right" to do what he is doing. (Although, imo the discourse of "rights" rarely favours the interests of the oppressed and marginalized.) If anything, I condemn the media for their "fair and balanced" reportage of this fascist action, and I vigourously applaud the actions of those who are standing up and speaking up against the side-effects of a racist, toxic system.
So, then, it appears that we pretty much agree on this matter (i.e., this planned action should be condemned in the strongest possible terms -- but not governmentally prevented).
@ Catchfire #45
Come on. Is an accusation of cultural ignorance really in order? I know different people make art with a different level of understanding.
In the first place I agree with you on the irrelevance of the art defense; the only point I was making is that art which offends does exist - in fact some is designed specifically to do so. Unless you are the one who is offended it is pretty hard to make a value judgment on what is worse.
Peter McKay weighs in. Last paragraph is interesting cf. Bible vs. Koran.
Canadian Defence Minister Peter MacKay says a U.S. church's plan to burn the Qur'an on Saturday - the ninth anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks -will put soldiers from Canada other countries at risk in Afghanistan.
MacKay's comments regarding the plan by the The Dove World Outreach Center in Gainesville, Fla., are similar to those made earlier this week by Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan.
Petraeus said images of a burning Qur'an could be used for the extremist cause.
"I do believe that in Canada we are quick to embrace people's expressions of freedom, but burning a Qur'an is no different than burning a Bible," MacKay said Wednesday. "This is a book of faith."
Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/09/08/florida-pastor-quran.html#ixzz0yxfzg1uN
6079_Smith_W: I found VGE's red herring ignorant and offensive. It had nothing to do with the subject matter, and served only to distract from a very offensive action--the fact that he couched it with the inference that Islam is some sort of protected entity in America, and the association with Terry Jones's book-burning with art is as egregious as it is nonsensical. I don't know why you tried to find common ground between his comment and your bizarre list of artists criticizing Islam (how, please, do Salmon Rushdie and the Danish cartoons belong on the same list?), but I think, to put it mildly, you were stretching.
@ Catchfire #50
Sorry if I took offense needlessly. Actually I specifically included Rushdie, because it is hard to determine that one thing is more offensive and another is less so unless one is the offended party.
Obviously the thought and understanding that Rushdie had was irrelevant (or perhaps even more damning) to some people, even though his intent was far different than the other people I mentioned.
In any case, I really am done with this now... here anyway.
And of course, you can't extricate this action from the campaign of violence and aggression the West has waged against Muslim nations for a decade (or half century, take your pick)
Well, there was that seige of Jerusalem in 1099, and more recently, the 19th-century British invasions of Afghanistan and India. Of course we musn't forget the 1915 Gallipoli campaign and the attack on the Levant in 1917 and the subsequent division of land in 1919 that led to the current problems in the Middle East.
Good that McKay drew the parallel with the bible, and stated that we are not at war with Islam (of course he HAD to say that, and he knew it).
On the other hand, I don't like that the prime emphasis and the headlines focus on the possibility that this act will put Canadian and American lives at risk.
(edit)
and that the Canadians and Americans they mean are soldiers overseas... they don't mean Muslim Canadians or Muslim Americans who might be affected by this act.
It just perpetuates the racist myth of uncontrollable hordes who will automatically turn to bloody vengance at any offense, and frames the whole situation falsely as a threat to us.
Catchfire - I realize the example I gave was crude but I was trying to think quickly of analogies with recent "controversial" art such as Piss Christ, Marilyn Manson ripping bibles as part of his stage show ect.
You didn't respond to the points I made earlier about desecrating symbols be they holy books, national flags, effigies, ect so I'm not sure if you view these things differently.
As far as comparing it to art - This idiot is a provocateur and it's all about the reaction. Without giving him any undue credit it makes me think of Andy Warhols's early films like Blowjob or Sleep. To Andy just spreading the idea of the film(an 8hr film of a guy sleeping or a movie titled Blowjob - was more important than anyone actually seeing them.
If this guy had burned a Koran but not told anyone would it matter ? You get my point?
Fuck it all... This 9-11 (it's a Saturday) I'm going to the lake and burn some ribs and chicken on the grill, crack open a keg of home brewed beer and drown a few worms in the process. I bet I'm not alone.
Enjoying life is the best revenge on all these crazy bastards; Christian or Muslim or whatever.
If this thread could continue on the topic of Islamophobia that would be marvy.
I thought it was about this one particular event - sorry
"Fuck it all" says Bec, and I'm inclined to agree. But I can't. As frustrated as I get with this issue, I can't avoid thinking there is something of crucial moral importance going on here. Fritz Perls said he tried to tell his Jewish friends and family in 1930's Germany that they couldn't put enough space between them and that country. I suspect a lot of Muslim Americans are having similar thoughts. I know I would. And yet... America elected a black president, the msm is roundly condemning this shit-for-brains "pastor"...what's really going on here?
The case must be made very strongly that those who work to divide Muslims from the rest are doing al Qaeda's work for them. This will a difficult case to make for those who believe Islamic extremism (which is far more "extreme" than Islamic) does not really exist, or may safely be disregarded or dismissed. Muslims reportedly represent something more than 3 million Americans. 1%.
Fundamental Christians, Tea baggers, hard core extremist Republicans, and their assorted deluded, more moderate hangers on represent a bigger group. The Civil War never ended. Get ready for Round Two.
I think religious extremism does exist, and the US and Saudis, Pakistani elites continue to finance the madrassa system in their ongoing geopolitical campaign to destabilize a number of countries and prevent outbreaks of democracy.
There is no real evidence for "al-Qaeda" however. It's a myth created by the American CIA and US Military for reasons of post-cold war era geopolitical maneuvering.
Was America Attacked by Muslims on 9/11? By David Ray Griffin
Demonizing specific ethnic groups for the purpose of scapegoating is one of the hallmarks of fascism.
And of course, you can't extricate this action from the campaign of violence and aggression the West has waged against Muslim nations for a decade (or half century, take your pick)
Well, there was that seige of Jerusalem in 1099, and more recently, the 19th-century British invasions of Afghanistan and India. Of course we musn't forget the 1915 Gallipoli campaign and the attack on the Levant in 1917 and the subsequent division of land in 1919 that led to the current problems in the Middle East.
Yeah but those actions, aside from Jerusalem in 1099, have more to do with imperialist expansion and taking natural resources possessed by non European peoples than "attacking Islam because it's Islam and it's here"...
Today's Islamaphobia is more based on targeting Muslims who live here (in the USA for this thread) and the real motive is not "becouse they hate us". I suspect it's being used or drummed up if you will by political charlatans and other fringe groups to push their agenda which is ultimately aimed at ensuring President Obama is a one term president. As with anything like this in the USA it's the usual suspects that are being very vocal about this, whipping up hysteria and are quick to take advantage of the Bill of Rights to do so... while of course attack others for exercising their rights to use it.
This is more about politics than a genuine hatred of Islam; I challenge you to find one supporter of this "phobia" who also supports President Obama... you won't find one. And whys that?
Howard Dean.
This puppet little Pastor from Florida, is way too convenient of a tool, to further Islamophobia by the talking heads, to be accidental.
The final weight that swayed me on his being a plant to stir shit was MacKay, jumping into the mix.
Well, there was that seige of Jerusalem in 1099, and more recently, the 19th-century British invasions of Afghanistan and India. ...
fairly selective history, Al: it's more two-sided than that
Muslim forces also penetrated to the heart of Europe twice, and came within a hair of conquering a major Western capital, Vienna:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Vienna
That was more a case of forces that were Muslim than "Muslim forces." The upside was that the croissant was invented to honour the seige. At the same time, Christendom was expanding its magic empire of love all over the planet.
a neat sidestep
well, I will meet you and raise:
European expansion was more a case of forces that were Christian than Christian forces
Howard Dean.
I don't think so...
http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/gop-silent-about-quran-burnings/6...
a neat sidestep
well, I will meet you and raise:
European expansion was more a case of forces that were Christian than Christian forces
The Jesuits must have found that confusing
White House officials have discussed the possibility of calling a Florida pastor to urge him to drop a plan to burn copies of the Qur'an.
"There are discussions inside the government about the possibility of doing that. I don't know that a final decision has been reached on doing that," White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said at a news briefing Thursday.
Pastor Terry Jones, head of the Dove World Outreach Center of Gainesville, Fla., plans to lead the burning of the Muslim holy book on Sept. 11, the ninth anniversary of the attacks against the United States. Jones has insisted the burning will go ahead, despite widespread condemnation and appeals to the church to cancel the event.
In an interview Wednesday with USA Today, Jones said he had not been contacted by the White House, State Department or Pentagon. If he were, he said, "that would cause us to definitely think it over. That's what we're doing now. I don't think a call from them is something we would ignore."
Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/09/09/united-states-obama-quran-burning-florida-church.html#ixzz0z3q4wt1w
In an interview Wednesday with USA Today, Jones said he had not been contacted by the White House, State Department or Pentagon. If he were, he said, "that would cause us to definitely think it over. That's what we're doing now. I don't think a call from them is something we would ignore."
{venting} What this guy doesn't watch the fucking news?
I'm willing to bet there's more counter protesters there than book burners... which will be a good thing.
Where's one of those fire fighting planes that drops water when you need it.
Howard Dean.
I don't think so...
http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/gop-silent-about-quran-burnings/6...
I do .....
http://freedomeden.blogspot.com/2010/08/howard-dean-ground-zero-mosque.h...
European expansion was more a case of forces that were Christian than Christian forces
The Jesuits must have found that confusing
some basic Canadian history: Jacques Cartier planted the flag at Gaspe in 1534, claiming the territory for the King of France;
the Jesuits then arrived in New France in ... 1625; a bit of lag time, eh?
like, uh, a century
So the Jesuits didn't participate in the colonisation of European conquests?
So the Jesuits didn't participate in the colonisation of European conquests?
The conquering Muslim forces enforced conversions on historically Christian populations in vast areas of the globe. I'm not defending the actions of Christian forces. What they did was atrocious and indefensible. I'm just saying that muslim forces also behaved very badly and most people don't seem to be aware of this, or perhaps they just ignore it. You don't need to falsify history to oppose imperialism. In fact, it will undermine your cause in the long term.
P.S. That pastor is an idiot and this is indeed a symptom of something dark and evil. Calling it "Islamophobia" seems a tad simplistic - basically a George Bush type of political analysis - but who am I to question the one true doctrine?
I'm not sure to what extent they enforced conversion. Did Christian missionaries "enforce" conversion on those conquered or did conversion follow as a matter of process? There really is no value in comparing the relative degree of evil between empires. All empires require expansion and expansion requires violence.
@ DaveW
The Jesuits were only founded in the 1540s. I suspect they had to hold a few bake sales before they got organized enough to start doing outreach work.
Cortez's campaign (1520) on the other hand had two standing orders for the people they met - stop human sacrifice and worship Jesus. They weren't so forthcoming about the fact they were taking the land for Spain.
And speaking of naval campaigns, we're drifting a bit.
I'm not sure to what extent they enforced conversion.
Massively. (I hasten to add that this in no way justifies or ameliorates the historical crimes of the european or american imperial powers and their religious justifications and collaborators. I don't know why anyone would think it would but I have learned that they do.)
I do .....
http://freedomeden.blogspot.com/2010/08/howard-dean-ground-zero-mosque.h...
To each their own. I fail to see where he's being phobic about the mosque or Islam... and he does not support the burning.
I do .....
http://freedomeden.blogspot.com/2010/08/howard-dean-ground-zero-mosque.h...
To each their own. I fail to see where he's being phobic about the mosque or Islam... and he does not support the burning.
Really, so what do you figure the connection is between the 9/11 attackers and the mosque that would lead Dean to make the connection between them and side in any way with the anti-mosque crew?
If there's no connection, then why ever come to the conclusion that there would need to be a compromise?
If you wanted to build a supermarket near GZ, would it be fair for Dean to ask you to compromise and not build near GZ? If not why not?
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/09/09/united-states-obama-quran-burni...
Now this creep will get to act like he actually accomplished something with his stunt.
How soon do you think it will be before he gets his own TV show, or winds up on a GOP ticket?
(edit)
I have just read some reports that the minister's claim is false, and that the Centre in New York is not moving
Provocative Behavior: Pertinent Concerns Over the Burning of Korans
http://www.chris-floyd.com/articles/1-latest-news/2021-provocative-behav...
"One wonders if the actual burning and slaughtering of actual human beings in the Muslim world --covertly and overtly, in country after country, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year -- by the highest, most honored, respected and powerful worthies of American society [and CANADA!] might just possibly incite more violence and ill will against us than the burning of a few books by a marginal, powerless goober down in Florida.."
American Psychopaths
http://leninology.blogspot.com/2010/09/american-psychopaths.html
"In Afghanistan, American soldiers organise 'kill teams', or death squads as they used to be called - to murder civilians,,"
and I'm sure our own JTF2 'Kill teams' have a few trophies of their own..
Two separate concerns:
1)why use the term 'Islamophobia' instead of "anti-Muslim bigotry" or anything else? 'Phobia' would imply something psychological, not conveniently/cynically political; Fox New a year ago was almost celebrating the so-called Ground Zero mosque and is only now against it due to a ramp up by other conservatives.
2) for those who have any spare cash, why not organize a 'buy a Qu'ran' day on Saturday?
Hi 2dawall.
1. Don't get me started. "Islamophobia" and "homophobia" as descriptive terms make my brain explode with the inaccuracy of it all. But that would be thread drift.
2. Someone's already on it (Facebook group). What else you got?
Thanks for the link! But the bigot backed down. The burning has been called off and the bizarre preacher makes a weird claim that he did it in exchange for the move of the proposed mosque, a claim denied by a backer of the mosque.
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/09/09/united-states-obama-quran-burni...
That was a lie by the good Christian pastor ... there was no deal to move the mosque .. there was an agreement to meet in NY to talk about the Koran burning issues but there was never any offer (nor will there ever be, as the Imam just clarified on MSNBC) to move the mosque.
If there's no connection, then why ever come to the conclusion that there would need to be a compromise?
Asking for a compromise is hardly the Islamphobia I think we are trying to talk about here and we see coming from the right (whom you've seem to have posted from) and the Tea Party types. Dean also says positive things about Muslims so I'd hardly consider him a raging phobic like we're starting to see more of on TV.
As I've said before the real "hate" is being politically driven with an eye on this November's congressional elections and the next presidential election. I don't know if you are in the USA or not but I am and I can see it.
It's sad and stupid at the same time. On a positive note more and more people I talk to about this, at work and such, are getting tired of this and are starting to see the poison... even most of the Republicans I know... although they still try and hang on they are realizing they are getting painted into an ugly corner and most are looking for a way out.. That is kind' a funny really.
Yup; cornered badgers are hilarious.
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/09/09/united-states-obama-quran-burni...
So now he expects the Imam in New York to "back up one of his own men" (because of course all them Muslims get to speak for each other) and do whatever he thinks he was told by Imam Muhammad Musri down in Florida.
Do you think if I call the press and tell them the burning is off he'll do what I say because I am "one of his own men?"
Cornered badger is right. At least now he's saying it is on hold, so hopefully he is just looking for any way to back out of this mess.
The minister of a Florida church said he is now rethinking his earlier decision to call off plans to burn copies of the Qur'an.
Terry Jones had announced at a news conference in Gainesville, Fla., that he had decided to call off the event because the person behind the effort to build an Islamic centre near Ground Zero had agreed to move its location.
But later Thursday night, Jones said that the imam he thought he made the deal with "clearly clearly lied to us" about moving the centre.
Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/09/09/united-states-obama-quran-burning-florida-church.html#ixzz0z7vsLPsb
I think I will make a point of reading some of the Qur'an on Saturday.
Does Pastor Jones know?
Military personnel threw away, and ultimately burned, confiscated Bibles that were printed in the two most common Afghan languages amid concern they would be used to try to convert Afghans, a Defense Department spokesman said Tuesday.
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/05/20/us.military.bibles.burne...
If there's no connection, then why ever come to the conclusion that there would need to be a compromise?
Asking for a compromise is hardly the Islamphobia I think we are trying to talk about here and we see coming from the right (whom you've seem to have posted from) and the Tea Party types. Dean also says positive things about Muslims so I'd hardly consider him a raging phobic like we're starting to see more of on TV.
As I've said before the real "hate" is being politically driven with an eye on this November's congressional elections and the next presidential election. I don't know if you are in the USA or not but I am and I can see it.
It's sad and stupid at the same time. On a positive note more and more people I talk to about this, at work and such, are getting tired of this and are starting to see the poison... even most of the Republicans I know... although they still try and hang on they are realizing they are getting painted into an ugly corner and most are looking for a way out.. That is kind' a funny really.
You're not answering my question ... what is the connection between the 9/11 attackers and the mosque?
Unless you can come up with some kind of valid connection I don't see how a "compromise" plays into the issue, and asking for one is not the act of a reasonable person.
The bigotry of the Republicans is obvious so I really am not interested in stating the obvious over and over again that these nutbars are a bunch of racists asshats ... but seems some people on the so called left have a problem recognizing a more subtle "reasonable" bigotry.
You're not answering my question... what is the connection between the 9/11 attackers and the mosque?
Unless you can come up with some kind of valid connection I don't see how a "compromise" plays into the issue, and asking for one is not the act of a reasonable person.
The bigotry of the Republicans is obvious so I really am not interested in stating the obvious over and over again that these nutbars are a bunch of racists asshats ... but seems some people on the so called left have a problem recognizing a more subtle "reasonable" bigotry.
Agh I see... I don't want to turn this into another 9-11 thread so I need to think this through carefully; better yet I'll PM you my response/opinion on this after I recover from my hangover this Sunday... or maybe Monday
.
Everyone have a great weekend... do something you enjoy and makes you feel good.
Watch out for the bogeyman, BDC. Elvis bin Laden's minions of doom are everywhere these days.
Indeed part of the point of the cultural centre's location is indeed that they are not related and some of the people associated with it have said as much. this desire to push "them" all in to a "them" camp is tragic and would be self-fulfilling if "they" did not know better. Too bad those that call themselves "us" are having so much trouble seeing that.
Eventually one would hope that the "us" realizes they already include the "them" and the difference loses purpose.
Salon
Catchfire made Greenwald's point upthread, as did Wingy with the cartoon he posted.
It seems that the attitude in the USA is it's OK to hate Muslims, as long as you don't crow about it so loud that Muslims will notice. Of course, those who hold this attitude are oblivious to the effects of decades of US violence against the people of the Middle East, which has done the job of hundreds of book-burnings.
Why can't Obama say, "You're wrong to burn the Koran because it's a hateful act," rather than ask that these yahoos don't put US soldiers in danger? Why can't Obama say, "Well no, I'm not a Muslim, but so what if I were?"
Let me make this perfectly clear, let there be no mistake, we are not at war against Islam. We are at war against some Islamic peoples. It is okay to equate Islam with terrorism as that delegitimizes their resistance. It is okay to equate Islam with backwardness and cruelty as that supports the narrative we employ to invade their nations, kill their citizens, and seize their resources. But it is not okay to burn their holy book, the Quran, because other Islamic peoples can stand aside as we bomb other Islamic peoples just so long as we are waging war against people who are Islamic rather than Islam itself. It is a fine line and we must tread carefully. As your president, I can't denounce the demonizing of Muslims and attacks on their mosques as a hateful expression of racism, but I can, and indeed I must, denounce the burning of the Quran as a danger to our troops who are presently engaged in the mission of killing Islamic people in many different parts of the world. Because, to defend Muslims would undermine my moral authority as president while defending the troops strengthens it. I say to all Americans in these difficult times of conflict, if you really need to burn a book, burn the constitution. We have.
Pres. Barack H. Obama.
good one WingNut!
Where's the "like" button?
Those reading this thread may be interested to know that over in Israel, Jewish fundamentalists decided that burning the Christian Bible is a good thing. Warning: The article is from 2008 but it has also been in the news more recently. Google is your friend.
Messianic Jews in Israel demand inquiry into burning of bibles by Orthodox Jews
Brilliant, WingNut! Glad to see Chris Floyd's excellent article from Empire Burlesque posted by NoDifference.
From Eric Margolis:
The White House and media were quick to blame Muslims who hated America’s lifestyle and values, launching the concept of “Islamic terrorism” – i.e. that the Muslim faith, not political issues, prompted the attacks. This dangerous canard has infected America, leading to a rising tide of Islamophobia. This week’s continued uproar over a Muslim community center in downtown New York, and a Florida preacher’s threat to burn Korans, are the latest doleful example of cultivated religious hatred. The suicide team that attacked New York and Washington made clear its aim was: a. to punish the US for backing Israel’s repression of Palestinians; and b. what they called US “occupation” of Saudi Arabia. Though they were all Muslims, religion was not the motivating factor. As the CIA’s former bin Laden expert Michael Scheuer rightly observed, the Muslim world was furious at the US for what it was doing in their region, not because of America’s values, liberties or religion.These motives for the 9/11 attack have been largely obscured by the whipping up hysteria over “Islamic terrorism.”
http://www.ericmargolis.com/political_commentaries/--the-mother-of-all-coincidences.aspx
Though they were all Muslims, religion was not the motivating factor. As the CIA's former bin Laden expert Michael Scheuer rightly observed, the Muslim world was furious at the US for what it was doing in their region, not because of America's values, liberties or religion.
This is obvious to anyone who has bothered to investigate the attackers' motives.
I find it odd that the US can invade Afghanistan and Iraq with the stated purpose of changing the cultures there, yet one never hears a peep about how the US hates Muslim values.
If you create a monolith, there can be no subtle divisions. They get banned from discussion groups that like to keep it neat. Otherworldly neat.
That's right, the question then is who exactly is creating the monolith ... do you have examples of any US MSM that portray the "terrorists" as attacking the USA for other than "hating our freedom"?
Even people like Keith Oebermann and Rachael Madow, who are considered the looney left in the USA, while do usually use "insurgency" instead of Al Qaeda or terrorists, are still using the narratives of "hate us for our freedoms" and "the terrorists are religious extremists" ... How could anyone hear those narratives and not be lead to wrongly believe that it was "their religion" and "our freedoms" that caused the terrorists to attack?
P.S. I may be misreading your statement and we're saying basically the same thing, if so then just take this as a confirmation rather than any form of "rebuttal".
Though they were all Muslims, religion was not the motivating factor. As the CIA's former bin Laden expert Michael Scheuer rightly observed, the Muslim world was furious at the US for what it was doing in their region, not because of America's values, liberties or religion.
This is obvious to anyone who has bothered to investigate the attackers' motives.
It's not obvious to me or very many other people that a single person from Afghanistan or Iraq flew suicide missions on 9/11. This may be the false narrative on 9/11 terror as explained by dubya and Rummy, Cheney etc to gullible rich people and military types attending $5000 dollar a plate Republican Party fund raisers. But there is no hard proof of "al-Qaeda" or any such invisible army of darkness. Afghanistan may have been attacked and invaded over the course of two centuries by various vicious empires, but Afghans themselves have never retaliated against any other nation or exported terror to those nations in any way. And they probably never will.
Front row, from left: Major Gen. Hamid Gul, director general of Pakistan's
Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate (ISI), Director of Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)
Willian Webster; Deputy Director for Operations Clair George; an ISI colonel; and senior CIA official,
Milt Bearden at a mujahedeen training camp in North-West Frontier Province of Pakistan in 1987.(source RAWA)
The Reagan administration sensed the most hard-line elements of the resistance were less likely to reach negotiated settlements, but the goal was to cripple the Soviet Union, not free the Afghan people. Recognizing the historically strong role of Islam in Afghan society, they tried to exploit it to advance U.S. policy goals. Religious studies along militaristic lines were given more importance than conventional education in the school system for Afghan refugees in Pakistan. The number of religious schools (madrassas) educating Afghans rose from 2,500 in 1980 at the start of Afghan resistance to over 39,000. The United States encouraged the Saudis to recruit Wahhabist ideologues to come join the resistance and teach in refugee institutes.
They destroyed secular socialism and secular education in Afghanistan and replaced/expanded the madrassa system in order to establish militant Islam in Central Asia. Sibel Edmonds says that this is still happening today with continuing support financed by US taxpayers.
As tragic as the loss of life due to a terrorist attack on US soil on September 11, 2001, this date makes me mourn and despair over the thousands upon thousands of Afghan and Iraqi lives lost and destroyed by the outcome. My first reaction to the terrorist attacks was "f*ck, Bush is in power. This is going to end brutally for the Middle Eastern region." These days I'm not so sure if it would have ended up any less brutal with Gore or Obama in power.
Both parties of warmongering plutocrats were directly responsible for 9/11. Both wings of the exact same party of Wall Street and Military-Industrial interests are responsible for creating militant Islam in Central Asia and Balk-Qaeda. They continue funding the CIA-SAudi expansion of the fundamentalist education system comprised of tens of thousands of madrassas in Central Asia.
Clinton-Approved Iranian Arms Transfers Help Turn Bosnia into Militant Islamic Base http://rpc.senate.gov/releases/1997/iran.htm
The Kosovo Liberation Army: Does Clinton Policy Support Group with Terror, Drug Ties?
From 'Terrorists' to 'Partners' http://rpc.senate.gov/releases/1999/fr033199.htm
Clinton and Albright's bosom friends, Thaci et al in Kosovo, are drug-dealing war crims (retired) Maj. General Lewis Mackenzie
And none of this was mentioned during or after the phony bipartisan charade, "The 9/11 Commission" Cover-up.
There is, of course, a Canadian, branch plant version of American Islamophobia. Here is the latest toxic waste by the lickspittling literati and obedient servant to the Imperial court, Robert Fulford.
Lessons of 9/11
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/09/11/robert-fulford-lessons-of...
"Nine years ago this morning, the Islamist wing of the Muslim religion, a gigantic and merciless force, declared war on the West...Many of us worry more about the rights of Islamists than about preserving our traditions...The West now lacks the conviction our way of life needs and deserves defending...It is as if Islamists were saying to the world: Don't offend us or we'll kill a lot of our people...But in the timorous way we think about Islam, far too much remains just as it was when we saw planes fly into the Twin Towers.."
robertfulford@utoronto.ca
Awful hateful stuff.
Awful hateful stuff.
150% in agreement NoDifference.
And here's Harper's contribution to the same incitement
Terrorism Threat 'Very Much a Global Reality'..
"Sadly the threat of terrorism is till very much a global reality, including right here at home,' Harper said. 'No country is immune. International and home=grown groups continue to pose a real danger to our safety, and we must remain ever vigilant.."
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada/breakingnews/terrorism-threat-ve...
Closing for length.