American Islamophobia

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6079_Smith_W

Slumberjack wrote:

A honest yearning for the truth might resemble zealotry in it's intensity, but it is another thing entirely from the type of zealotry that often springs out of nonsense, like religion.

 

Well that's the thing. for some it isn't an honest yearning, it is the same arrogant assumption of being completely right.

As for the difference I don't think in this case there was any difference in the bullets that sprang out of the gun, just because they were fired by someone who thought he was fighting for atheist equality.

(edit)

For that matter, it begs the question of what rational thinking and evidence Sam Harris is using when he says something like this:

"While the other major world religions have been fertile sources of intolerance, it is clear that the doctrine of Islam poses unique problems for the emergence of a global civilization."

"It should be of particular concern to us that the beliefs of devout Muslims pose a special problem for nuclear deterrence."

Slumberjack

6079_Smith_W wrote:
Well that's the thing. for some it isn't an honest yearning, it is the same arrogant assumption of being completely right.

Some doesn't make for all.  We don't necessarily toss Carl Sagan or Neil deGrasse Tyson into the category of arrogant assumers because of their fixations on scientific inquiry.  Or perhaps you do I don't know.  Who is Tyson anyway to assume he is right about what he's been saying about the universe.

6079_Smith_W

Re: being done in the name of secularism (religious discrimination, actually):

Of course not. It was a complete coincidence, obviously.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/Bezbozhnik_u_st...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USSR_anti-religious_campaign_%281928%E2%80%...

And to tie it back, the forerunner to Islamphobia in the U.S. - the campaign that Jews and Catholics could not be trusted- was just a complete coincidence too.

 

Slumberjack

I think that since we've rung the nonsense plumb out of that line of reasoning in previous discussions, there's really nothing left to squeeze out of it.  It's the same communism/nazism/atheism argument that has been debunked time and time again.  Yes, protestant America had it in for Jews and Catholics, that is nothing new.  Even now the raison d'être, or end game so to speak of the American religious right sees the disapperance of Judasim as a worthwhile pursuit.  Obviously they're only wrong in wanting to replace it universally with the rule of the one who is to return.

6079_Smith_W

Well you might not see it, but the fact is all of those political cultures were alike in demonizing cultures they felt would divide loyalty, and people they felt could be used as scapegoats.

Slumberjack

Yes, so the culture can be 'freed up' to worship something else.  But it was never a-theism.

6079_Smith_W

Yeah, and moderate religious people and reformers also point out (quite rightly) that atrocities and abuses are the result of extremism and xenophobia, not valid expressions of their faith.

Even in that, there is a strong parallel. I happen to agree that the main problem here is not atheism or anti-religion, but the dominant culture in the U.S. But this case is a pretty clear sign that those professing to be atheists and rationalists are capable of the same acts.

 

 

Slumberjack

Capable for some other reason yes, or they have so little appreciation for rationality that their mental state has to be questioned.  In that case we're still not talking about secularism or atheism.  American exceptionalism for example, which breeds xenophobia because of a denial of attributes and rights that are common to all, can be described as a pathology in and of itself.  I believe this may turn out to be the motivating factor in this case, as it is with the American public's support for murder and assassination in the name of their own exceptionalism the world over.  When American school children repeat the oath every morning, sing the star spangled banner or America the beautiful, these can be considered hymns and prayers to this religion of exceptionalism.  It doesn't matter if the killer in this case is secular in terms of non-belief in Christian superstition.  He has replaced it with something else to kill for which is just as convincing where it concerns the national mindset that is America, enfeebled as it is.

6079_Smith_W

Except that once you have atheism being linked to murder, as in this case, it does raise questions about some of the rhetoric.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/121036/chapel-hill-muslim-murders-sho...

Quote:

But this is a persistent problem with the New Atheist movement: Because it is more critical of religion than introspective about its own moral commitments, it assumes there is broad agreement about what constitutes decency, common sense, and reason. Yet in doing so, New Atheism tends to simply baptize the opinions of young, educated white men as the obviously rational approach to complicated socio-political problems. Thus prejudice in its own ranks goes unnoticed.

The article also points to parallels between the "new atheism" (as opposed to simple non-belief) and other communities which suffer persecution and mistrust, specifically Islam.

Clearly it isn't quite the same thing, since there are other cultural differences, and the alleged murderer in this case was white. And most of the vocal public figures for the new atheism are well-known, well-educated white guys. But it does say something about feelings of persecution.

 

Slumberjack

6079_Smith_W wrote:
Except that once you have atheism being linked to murder, as in this case, it does raise questions about some of the rhetoric.

Do you have an appreciation for the way the American mainstream media is grasping for other reasons to obscure the fact that they've been complicit in all of the xenophobic hatemongering concerning Islam and Muslims?  The linkage between atheism and murder is an entirely contrived one, that you seem content to run with.  The media will obviously be adverse to soul searching their own part in these murders.  Better to point to other causes.

6079_Smith_W

Would you say the same about an attack made by right-wing Christians? Those protesters I linked to above? That it is entirely contrived and that we should only look at American xenophobia and ignore their values and persecution complex?

 

wage zombie

Slumberjack wrote:

In that case we're still not talking about secularism or atheism.  American exceptionalism for example, which breeds xenophobia because of a denial of attributes and rights that are common to all, can be described as a pathology in and of itself.

I personally don't believe secularism or atheism are pathologies or function similar to religions, and I've said that.

My point is only that the pathologies don't require a belief in supernatural beings.  I think focussing on the belief in supernatural beings rather than the patterns common to the pathologies is not seeing the whole picture.

wage zombie

Slumberjack wrote:

A-theism might have been useful in weaning people of superstition and onto whatever new state religion was being implemented, such as various extreme versions of communism or the cult of individuals like Stalin, Hitler, Pot, etc.

If you accept the idea that there have been state religions then we already agree.  I would call those state religions secular-- it's not that I think secularism is a religion, nor that I think secularism was a cause of those atrocities, but that there was no belief in supernatural dieties involved.  Nonetheless, these system functioned much like religion.

Slumberjack

wage zombie wrote:
Nonetheless, these system functioned much like religion.

Yes, especially evident in the examples furnished by the history of the 20th century.  All of the madness that ensued under Nazism or Stalinism could have been magnified and brought to bear by any other reasoning in the wrong set of hands, whether derived from so called 'secular' politics or ones based on religion.  To make secular politics responsible for such atrocities, it would need to become like a religion onto iself, at which point we would have to seriously doubt the secular nature of such a society.  With the European holocaust the religious undertones were already laid down in centuries past.  It just required prompting to dig up entirely what was never fully buried and what obviously remains present in at least a partially exhumed state, in Eastern Europe in particular.

6079_Smith_W

Also, that discrimination against certain religious people (particularly non anglo ones) - the assumption that they are superstitious, not to be trusted, and controlled by some religious authority - and the assumption that one is upholding rationalism and science, came directly from the protestant traditions of  Britain, the U.S. and Canada.

The new atheism ain't all that new; it's just that it was privileged well educated protestants doing it before, until they got sidelined by their philosophical children. And it's not just exclusive to the U.S.

 

 

wage zombie

Slumberjack wrote:

To make secular politics responsible for such atrocities,

I think you are reading something into my words that I'm not writing.  Secular politics aren't responsible for such atrocities, humans are.

Slumberjack

6079_Smith_W wrote:
The new atheism ain't all that new; it's just that it was privileged well educated protestants doing it before, until they got sidelined by their philosophical children. And it's not just exclusive to the U.S. 

Compulsion should really be sidelined and replaced by the provision of better examples.  Western corporatized culture has never been very good at that to put it mildly.  If you’re referring to the new atheism of Hitchens, Harris and others, I'm afraid they went irreversibly astray in their so called justifications, quite apart from what once might have been described as salient, if not rhetorical arguments in their favour.  Their legacy in the cause of atheism will suffer greatly as a result of what they allied themselves with.  Not as much as Stalin or Pot but close enough.  That being said, the recent tragedy in the US with the Muslim family is not a very good example to use in an anti-atheist hobby horse argument.

NDPP

More on the US hate-crime killings. Can you imagine what kind of coverage this would be getting if it was a Muslim killing Christians or Jews?

 

http://rt.com/shows/in-the-now-summary/231559-putin-merkel-hollande-poro...

segment starts at about 16:45

6079_Smith_W

@ SJ

No, not just them. I'd say the article I posted above makes the argument that it is a much wider phemomenon. It's not even an exclusively atheist argument. But all versions of it play on the lie that others are superstitious, non-rational, controlled by some religious authority, and a threat.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

RT in UK: Protest Against the silence of the BBC over the murders in Chapel Hill.

Quote:

A protest will take place outside the BBC on Thursday evening to condemn the broadcaster’s minimal coverage of the Chapel Hill murders in the US, which saw three Muslim students shot and killed.

Organizers say the BBC’s coverage of the Chapel Hill murders in North Carolina on Wednesday was tantamount to silence in comparison to the corporation’s reporting on the Paris attacks last month.

6079_Smith_W

Right now it is the second story from the top, right under the Ukrainian peace deal. on the BBC website. Tantamount to silence?

voice of the damned

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Right now it is the second story from the top, right under the Ukrainian peace deal. on the BBC website. Tantamount to silence?

And if RT is trying to argue that any imbalance in reportage is a result of anti-Muslims bias, Charlie Hebdo is a bad example to use. Coverage of the Paris killings pretty much dwarfed every other post-9/11 political massacre, including some, like Fort Hood, that were carried out by Muslims.

voice of the damned

If you're looking for a possible example of an imbalanced response between pro-Islamic(ostensibly) and anti-Islamic violence, a better example would be the Oslo killings in 2011.

Breivik killed over ten times the number that were killed in the Hebdo massacre, but didn't garner anywhere near the worldwide outpouring.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:
Right now it is the second story from the top, right under the Ukrainian peace deal. on the BBC website. Tantamount to silence?

Sounds like the protests [in the UK, not by RT fyi] are working.

voice of the damned

^^ Sorry, my math was off there. Breivik killed almost four times the number that were killed in Paris. 77 to 20.

NDPP

#MuslimLivesMatter: Protests Over BBC's Chapel Hill Murders 'Silence'

http://rt.com/uk/231803-muslim-protest-bbc-murders/

"A protest will take place outside BBC on Thursday evening to condemn the broadcaster's minimal coverage of the Chapel Hill murders in the US which saw three Muslim students shot and killed.

The organizers say 'MuslimLivesMatter' is a reference 'to the racist nature of the attack and the lack of coverage of it."

6079_Smith_W

Causes like Muslim Lives Matter are certainly good, and I agree that coverage is often uneven.

Fact is, the Independent covered the campaign yesterday:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/chapel-hill-shooting-mu...

BBC had it on their main news page at 11 last night, along with a link to a blog about the awareness campaign:

https://web.archive.org/web/20150212034611/http://www.bbc.com/news/

Strangely enough, RT doesn't even have a link to the news story about the murder on their main page; just coverage of the rally about BBC supposedly not covering it.

 

NDPP

RT America has been covering it quite well actually, in news reports as well as programs such as Abby Martin's Breaking the Set and Thom Hartmann''s The Big Picture.

6079_Smith_W

Sure, and that's good. But on their main page no mention of the murder, not even in the U.S. section. But the protest is the main picture in the UK section.

It's just kind odd, considering what they are accusing the BBC of:

http://www.rt.com

live link, so it will change.

 

NDPP

'American Sniper Dehumanizing' Media Targets in Chapel Hill Aftermath (and vid)

http://rt.com/usa/231847-muslims-violence-media-fox/

"You have people on the extreme right that just push that Islam is an evil religion and Muslims and Arabs are evil people."

Here too, and not just 'on the extreme right' either...

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Was it announced in any official way that this was a hate crime, or is this a "crowdsourced" verdict?

Anything I've read so far suggests it was motivated by an ongoing dispute, though police are looking into the hate crime angle as well.

Not that that should be all that hard; people who are ideologically motivated to kill don't generally seem to be shy about saying so -- as loudly and as often as possible.

NS NS's picture

Add parking disputes to the list when white men use guns to keep brown , black and Musim people in line

 

 

Chapel Hill killer had parking issues w/everyone. But--so much for parking as his alibi--he only shot the Muslims

Islamophobia isn't real"..."he was a lone wolf" "it was a parking dispute" "Muslims are just overreacting

http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/guns-chapel-hill-myth-american-vigilante …

NS NS's picture

How the Chapel Hill Victims Deserve to Be Mourned By Moustafa Bayoumi

Yusor, Deah, and Razan — may they rest in peace — are like so many young American Muslims I know. These are hard-working, well-meaning, family-oriented people. Muslim communities around the country are full of Yusors, Deahs, and Razans, and they are the ones who are out there, inspiring the older generation out of their despair at the state of the world by their actions. These young American Muslims are the ones who think deeply about inequality at home and injustice abroad, and act on both. They are the ones who will volunteer to deliver food (or dental supplies) to the needy while organizing assistance for Syrian refugees abroad. They are the people who are never searching for outside recognition for their efforts but who are acting out of their moral commitment to doing the right thing. They are the ones who take school very seriously, and their careers seriously, but who will always find time for others at the drop of a text...

I know so many young American Muslims like this, who love to have fun and are constantly laughing and joking with each other, even if to outsiders their humor may seem corny and hardly cynical enough, and even if their taste in movies or books or clothes is often safe and mainstream....

Muslims propose to build Islamic Centers around the country and are met with all kinds of opposition (often disguised as objections about “parking,” incidentally). Then the same construction projects, now overblown in significance because of the opposition, are used to “prove” that Muslims are trying to take over the country...

By all accounts, the shooter was always the belligerent one here, and yet the word “dispute” also suggests that the two parties were locked in conflict, as if responsibility is shared. That’s completely ridiculous and duplicitous, and other marginalized groups — LGBT communities, women, African Americans, Latinos, Asian Americans, the poor, and so many more — will recognize the reflex immediately for what it is: a way to displace and justify the violence of the dominant group onto the weaker.

 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

From the above article:

Quote:
Muslims propose to build Islamic Centers around the country and are met with all kinds of opposition (often disguised as objections about “parking,” incidentally).

Interestingly enough, the shooter had words to say about the building of a mosque at "Ground Zero" in New York.

Not exactly the sort of words you might expect from someone who hates Muslims (or members of any religion) so badly that he'd murder them for it.

voice of the damned

Stigmata fan, eh? Ah, not bad, but not my favorite. Interesting that out of all the films in the "Catholic horror" genre, he picked the most liberal.

josh

Arson investigators were at the scene of a fire at Islamic center in Houston, Texas that burned down early Friday, according to local station KHOU.

Smoke billowed from the Quba Islamic Institute early in the morning as the Houston Fire Department responded to an alarm at about 5:30 a.m CST, the station reported.

The fire was under control about an hour later, but the building, identified as a family center that was set to open soon, was a "complete loss," according to KHOU.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/quba-islamic-institute-houston-fire?utm_content=buffer385c7&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Despicable in the USA: US TV show runs story on how to safely find parking in wake of Chapel Hill Muslim killings

Quote:
An American Inside Edition TV show has produced a report on how to ‘safely’ find a parking spot after the nation was shocked by the killing of three Muslim students in what their relatives believe was a hate crime.

Because tastless scum-bags are what made America great! And, clearly, finding a parking spot ... is more important to some people than three dead young people.

ooh rah

Quote:
READ MORE: Family of slain Muslims calls Chapel Hill shooting 'absolutely… domestic terrorism'

“It was execution style, a bullet in every head,” Abu-Salha [father of the two girls, psychiatrist Dr. Mohammad Abu-Salha] said Wednesday morning. “This was not a dispute over a parking space; this was a hate crime. This man had picked on my daughter and her husband a couple of times before, and he talked with them with his gun in his belt. And they were uncomfortable with him, but they did not know he would go this far.”


NS NS's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

From the above article:

Quote:
Muslims propose to build Islamic Centers around the country and are met with all kinds of opposition (often disguised as objections about “parking,” incidentally).

Interestingly enough, the shooter had words to say about the building of a mosque at "Ground Zero" in New York.

Not exactly the sort of words you might expect from someone who hates Muslims (or members of any religion) so badly that he'd murder them for it.

 

His wife, lawyer and even police told the media that it was 'parking dispute' and the news lapped it up!

It gets worse then the killer's lawyer said "Victims were in wrong place at wrong time" ... meaning in their home. They were HOME

ONCE again trying to suggest that the victims had it coming

Chapel Hill killer had parking issues w/everyone. But--so much for parking as his alibi--he only shot the Muslims

 http://www.wsj.com/articles/alleged-chapel-hill-shooter-had-history-of-parking-disputes-tow-truck-driver-says-1423706574

NS NS's picture

Things that make you go, hmm

 

josh

"I think it's absolutely insulting, insensitive and outrageous that the first thing they come out and say and issue a statement that this is a parking dispute," Barakat said.

"I'm not sure who they spoke to, because it took me all of five minutes of talking to [Deah's] former roommate, whom they had not reached out to, to give me details, information, text messages," she said, adding that police hadn't yet reached out to her family either.

. . . .

Barakat also pointed out that none of the victims were parked in the spot that Hicks claimed for his family on the day of the shooting.

"To call it a parking dispute when in fact no one was parked in even in that visitor's parking spot that does not belong to him, is outrageous to me, and it's insulting and it trivializes their murders," she said.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/suzanne-barakat-chapel-hill-police

 

 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

I had a conversation with someone on this issue who, indifferently, lapped up the MSM propaganda and remarked that, since they were Muslims, they had it coming.

Bigotry is alive and well in the USA and Canada and it looks like Islamophobic bigotry, dressed up in a flimsy slip called "anti terrorism", is already looking like the preferred campaign issue for the jackboot Harper regime.

NS NS's picture

Obama orders federal probe into killing of 3 American Muslim students: http://aje.io/gwhp 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
His wife, lawyer and even police told the media that it was 'parking dispute' and the news lapped it up!

Do you mean "reported that that's what they said"?

The family of the victims declared that it was a "hate crime" and evidently the media "lapped that up" (i.e. reported that that's what they said) too.

Quote:

It gets worse then the killer's lawyer said "Victims were in wrong place at wrong time" ... meaning in their home. They were HOME

ONCE again trying to suggest that the victims had it coming

Actually, when we say that someone was "in the wrong place at the wrong time" we generally mean it to say that someone DIDN'T have it coming.

Quote:
Chapel Hill killer had parking issues w/everyone. But--so much for parking as his alibi--he only shot the Muslims

I suppose he could have made an effort to choose a more representative sample, but the fact that he shot Muslims doesn't, in and of itself, make this a hate crime.  And it really seems to me at this point that that fact, plus the parent's assertion that it was a hate crime, are the primary reasons why people are already convinced it was a hate crime.

Quote:
"I think it's absolutely insulting, insensitive and outrageous that the first thing they come out and say and issue a statement that this is a parking dispute," Barakat said.

If that's the only information that investigators have at this point then what are they supposed to say?  Should they just disregard that and make something up like "He told us he was avenging 9/11"??

 

NS NS's picture

 Magoo:

The US mainstream media failed again by following simple and predictable script when the shooters are white men & coverage downplays societal issues that lead to their acts

Minority victims are not humanized or completely ignored as was with this story until social media called out the MSM on it

1st The family of the victims DID NOT HAVE Press Conference ONLY the killer's wife and lawyer did

2nd the police basically ruled out as motive after he gave himself & before they searched his house. They concluded it was a parking dispute based entirely on the claims of the shooter and the press as usual parrotted them

3rd The coroner and police did not release the info on the state and description of their bodies ,so multiple sources have revealed that at least one girl was shoot in back of the head

Quote:

Actually, when we say that someone was "in the wrong place at the wrong time" we generally mean it to say that someone DIDN'T have it coming.

To say such a thing when they were shot in their heads in THEIR EFFING HOME!

Chapel Hill shooter was angry and scared his neighbors. He repeatedly harassed his Arab neighbors

Hick's neighbors had been so alarmed by Hicks’ rants that they called a community meeting last year http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-north-carolina-shooting-deaths-20150211-story.html#page=1 …

 

Quote:

suppose he could have made an effort to choose a more representative sample, but the fact that he shot Muslims doesn't, in and of itself, make this a hate crime.  And it really seems to me at this point that that fact, plus the parent's assertion that it was a hate crime, are the primary reasons why people are already convinced it was a hate crime.

Again, not true, see 1st and 2nd points

It took this tragedy for Americans to know young Muslims just like them - generous, joyful, loving people

The family and their supporters both Muslim and Non-Muslim sought to get the stories of their children to the media AFTER they saw what the narrative of 'parking dispute' & called on the police and prosecutors and WH to investigate it

May be surprising that Black, Brown and Muslim victims' families want to be treated fairly under the law

Now the FBI and Justice Department will do their own parallel investigations to determine if these were premeditated murders and/or hate crimes

Lastly, Reducing Hick's motive to parking spat makes some white people feel better because it has no sociopolitical meaning, they avoid thinking about it

This article tries to make the case that the as a hate crime, not just a parking dispute: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/12/friend-this-was-no-parking-murder.html ….

NDPP

'Media Blamed Whole Faith' Canadian Activist Tries to Cure Islamophobia with Street Hugs (and vid)

http://rt.com/news/232271-muslims-blind-trust-hug/

"...Due to the rise of Islamophobia, due to the rise of hate crimes that have been happening around the world and due to personal experience...it really moved us to try to raise awareness, to show people how we are made to feel in our own countries, our own homes, Asoomii Jay, the action's organizer, told RT.

She cited the recent tragic incident in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, where three Muslim students - activists themselves, - were shot by their neighbor. According to the victims' relatives the suspected murderer was motivated by racial or religious hatred.

'People are confused by disinformation in the aftermath of tragedies such as  the Charlie Hebdo attacks in Paris, Jay said. Instead of blaming individuals who committed the horrible terrorist acts, some media 'blame the whole faith,' she added.

'That has made us raise awareness, show people what we are made to feel, as well as encourage people to think for themselves, not believe everything they hear and see,' the activist explained.."

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
1st The family of the victims DID NOT HAVE Press Conference ONLY the killer's wife and lawyer did

Could that have been because the family of the victims had really never spoken to the killer, and only the killer's wife and lawyer did?

And for what it's worth, isn't the press free to attend a press conference held by anyone who the press thinks may have something relevant to say?  By that I mean, are press conferences subject to approval by the authorities now??

Quote:
They concluded it was a parking dispute based entirely on the claims of the shooter and the press as usual parrotted them

Er, as I understand it the authorities haven't concluded ANYTHING yet.  They've relayed what they know so far, and have indicated that the investigation is ongoing and will explore the possibility that this was motivated by hate.

The press, meanwhile, have relayed that this is what they know at this time.  No matter how much the family of the victims might believe that this "must be" a hate crime, the press would be irresponsible to conclude, on the basis of the family's beliefs, that this is a hate crime.

Quote:
3rd The coroner and police did not release the info on the state and description of their bodies ,so multiple sources have revealed that at least one girl was shoot in back of the head

I'm not at all clear on what this is supposed to mean.

It seems clear that, hate crime or not, the shooter killed these three people.  Is where or how he shot them somehow relevant, in some way that you could elaborate on?  Did he shoot them "point-blank", execution style?  Maybe he did, as killers sometimes do.  I don't see your point here.

Quote:
To say such a thing when they were shot in their heads in THEIR EFFING HOME!

Yes!  Shot in their home!  Sometimes people are, in fact, shot in their home!  And for no good reason at all.  That's kind of what we mean by "in the wrong place at the wrong time".  That doesn't mean that the onus was on them to be somewhere else (and if not then they deserved it).  It means that on that particular day they drew the short straw.

Here's a for-instance:  if someone with a lot of rage and a gun shoots people as they wait in line for a movie, we might say that the victims were in the wrong place at the wrong time.  This isn't our way of saying that it's their own damn fault for wanting to see a movie.  It's our way of saying that they happened to be the humans nearby when someone started shooting.

Quote:
Now the FBI and Justice Department will do their own parallel investigations to determine if these were premeditated murders and/or hate crimes

Excellent.  Due diligence.

But if this independent investigation says "not a hate crime", will you be able to accept that?  Or have you already made up your mind prior to them even starting?

For the record, if an independent investigation says "hate crime" then I'll go with that.  I'm certainly not saying it isn't a hate crime or it cannot be a hate crime; I'm saying that in the context of any kind of meaningful evidence, none of us knows yet.

 

 

 

NDPP

USPCN Mourns the Loss of Yusor, Razan and Deah

http://uspcn.org/2015/02/13/uspcn-mourns-the-loss-of-yusor-razan-and-deah/

"We support the father of the slain young woman, Dr Mohammad Abu Salha, who was quoted as saying, 'This has hate crime written all over it.' The FBI has launched a 'preliminary inquiry,' but the Campaign to TAKE ON HATE, a project of the National Network For Arab American Communities (NNAAC) has already published an online petition demanding a full investigation.

We must analyze these murders in today's social and political context..."

NS NS's picture

In an interview with RT, Yousef Abu-Salha, the brother of two of the Chapel Hill shooting victims, said there was a lot of tension  between the family and accused shooter Craig Stephen Hicks, which  only grew after one of Yousef’s sisters, Yusor MohammadAbu-Salha,  moved in with her husband, Deah Shaddy Barakat.

There were plenty of run-ins [with Hicks],” he said,  “but the run-ins escalated when my sister moved in; she  obviously wore the head scarf. I recall her telling me when she  first went to visit the condo before she even moved in together,  [Hicks] came and knocked on the door and told them they were  making too much noise, and he brandished a gun at his  waist.”

“I consider that terror,” he added, “I consider that  hate.”

Both Yusor and Deah were killed Wednesday, along with Yusor’s  sister, Razan Mohammad Abu-Salha. The family has been outspoken  in its belief that the shooting was a hate crime, and a  spokesperson called the incident “domestic terrorism.”

Despite the tension, Yousef said his family treated Hicks  with kindness and they sympathized with him.” The  brother also dismissed the possibility that the shooting occurred  as a result of a parking lot dispute, which police and Hicks’  wife have highlighted as a possibility.

Watch here: http://youtu.be/dbYN1BRJPw0

 

Whiteness allowed Hicks to terrorize everyone in the apartment complex and neighbourhood with impunity

NS NS's picture

When the suspect is white...

a lone wolf

suspect was provokes

isolated incident

suspect feared for his life

 Magoo Quote:

Could that have been because the family of the victims had really never spoken to the killer, and only the killer's wife and lawyer did?

And for what it's worth, isn't the press free to attend a press conference held by anyone who the press thinks may have something relevant to say?  By that I mean, are press conferences subject to approval by the authorities now??

 His wife also said to CNN:  "He (Hicks) believes everyone is equal" and then came the parking narrative

US media is often a lapdog when it comes to regurgitating what government and police say

Sure, you can take the word of Hicks and not give benefit of the doubt to the families, neighbours, friends

That gets to the character of victims vs the character of Hicks

Magoo Quote:

Er, as I understand it the authorities haven't concluded ANYTHING yet.  They've relayed what they know so far, and have indicated that the investigation is ongoing and will explore the possibility that this was motivated by hate.

The press, meanwhile, have relayed that this is what they know at this time.  No matter how much the family of the victims might believe that this "must be" a hate crime, the press would be irresponsible to conclude, on the basis of the family's beliefs, that this is a hate crime.

Its not a matter of what they believe, its what they were told by the victims. Obviously, dead don't speak ,but they did tell their side to their siblings , parents and friends - they had plenty of them.

Magoo Quote:

It seems clear that, hate crime or not, the shooter killed these three people.  Is where or how he shot them somehow relevant, in some way that you could elaborate on?  Did he shoot them "point-blank", execution style?  Maybe he did, as killers sometimes do.  I don't see your point here.

Its important to emphasize how they were shoot and where they were at the time because it goes to premeditation and motive for murder and or hate crime

Magoo Quote:

Excellent.  Due diligence.

But if this independent investigation says "not a hate crime", will you be able to accept that?  Or have you already made up your mind prior to them even starting?

Getting info. and reading it as it comes

Put it another way : If it was a Muslim guy who shoot up 3 white people , he'd be called a terrorist. I am waiting for the facts before calling Hicks a terrorist (Hicks' gun collection included several handguns, rifles + shotguns, and a Bushmaster AR-15. Lots of ammo http://ift.tt/1JaK2w2 )

Magoo Quote:

For the record, if an independent investigation says "hate crime" then I'll go with that.  I'm certainly not saying it isn't a hate crime or it cannot be a hate crime; I'm saying that in the context of any kind of meaningful evidence, none of us knows yet.

Meaningful? Or stuff you agree with?

if you're really interested ,then read for yourself the stuff I and others have put up here on this thread

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:

US media is often a lapdog when it comes to regurgitating what government and police say

Sure, you can take the word of Hicks and not give benefit of the doubt to the families, neighbours, friends

That gets to the character of victims vs the character of Hicks

No, it gets to the fact that nobody on earth is a more reliable source for what's going on inside Hicks' head than Hicks.

I'm sorry, NS, but are we really supposed to believe that the father of one of Hicks' victims knows best what motivated Hicks?

Quote:
Its not a matter of what they believe, its what they were told by the victims.

And THAT'S a more reliable source of information about Hicks' motive??

Quote:
Its important to emphasize how they were shoot and where they were at the time because it goes to premeditation and motive for murder and or hate crime

I surely agree that being shot point-blank suggests murder, and not (say) an accident, but where on their body a victim was shot doesn't actually indicate premeditation, and it doesn't indicate motive.

I mean, seriously??

If I rob a gas station and shoot the lone employee in the chest it's a robbery, but if I hit them in the head it means I premeditated the whole thing, and it's probably a hate crime??

Again, seriously?

Quote:
Put it another way : If it was a Muslim guy who shoot up 3 white people , he'd be called a terrorist.

Probably.  By people who didn't really care one way or another why he actually did it.  Y'know...  by people who, for their own reasons, WANTED TO BELIEVE he was a terrorist.  I can't deny that some would jump to that conclusion.

Quote:
if you're really interested ,then read for yourself the stuff I and others have put up here on this thread

I have, and I get it.  The family says it's a hate crime, so it must be a hate crime.

For investigators or the courts to say anything else would be a heinous insult.  Got it.

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