Brazil needs its communist revolution

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WWWTT
Brazil needs its communist revolution

Not sure how to title the thread so it may change?

Recent election results in Brazil have clearly shown that the so called Brazilian democracy is nothing more than a front for US spies to cripple socialism in one of the largest countries of the world!

with near 70 thousands of murders each year, this country is literally at war with itself! Unemployment at 13%. And false allegations against anyone remotely anti US make Brazil ripe for a people’s revolution!

lagatta4

Personally, from where I'm located now, I'm more interested is how we can mobilise in solidarity with the Brazilian people and the many groups (poor people, people of colour, Indigenous peoples, women, lgbtq2+ people, known opponents) who are already targeted and will be in far more danger if the fascist candidate wins.

There are rallies and other forms of action in many places in the world, near Brazil and far from it, and I haven't heard about any here.

It is up to the Brazilian people to make a revolution; at that time solidarity campaigns will be an option. It is not up to anyone else to tell them what to do.

I am well aware of the huge wealth gap and deep exploitation in Brazil. A Brazilian friend has called it SwissIndia, with gaps in living standards as great as between those countries.

And I'm utterly terrified of the creep and his nostalgia for the dictatorship and dirty wars. So are people in countries nearby who underwent similar coups some years after the Brazilians.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

WWWTT, why insist on using the "c word"?  It's not really possible to reclaim it from the Stalinists, and there's no good reason to ever create another Stalinist or Maoist-type regime anywhere.   The command economy isn't socialism, factories run by bureaucrats with no say given to the workers isn't socialist, and a Party that millionaires and billionaires can join isn't socialist either.

 

WWWTT

You don’t know shit from shineola Ken Burch. 

I recently came back from China. Spent 6 weeks there. Rode their hi speed electric bullet train in the southern provinces from Guangxi to Sichuan. Rode several new subway lines! Currently there’s 32 cities in China with subway systems and 14 more under construction! In a few years 46 cities in China wil have subways! 

Solar panels and green energy is visible everywhere  So many people use e bikes and everywhere people use bike shares  even i and my wife were using them in Nanning Chengdu and Beijing 

Poverty is declining, low unemployment with many opportunities. 

Theres a tremendous feeling of happiness and success in China! Nothing like the west!

The reason why you’re so ignorant is because Canada and the US are afraid that if you knew, really knew the potential of a people’s socialist government and movement, the corporations that keep you as slaves would be threatened!

Enjoy your hi illiteracy rates, poverty violence and crime. If it becomes too much for you, you can always become a war pig, join the military and help your corporate imperialist country commit atrocities in a foreign country. Who cares hey? Democracy is way better hey? As long as you’re doing better than someone living on a reserve democracy is fuckin awesome hey?

WWWTT

Forgot to mention that the first time I was in Beijing in 2009, the air smell was like a cross between burning plastic and wood smoke! Very disgusting. Now the air in Beijing is even cleaner than compared to where I live in Brampton!

Thats communism! Getting results for people making their lives better and more substanable. 

Enjoy your debates about gun control in the US after you learn in the news about the latest US mass shooting tomorrow. 

Or if you speak Portuguese, you can go online and check out how many murders happened today in Brazil.  Should be around 200. 

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

WWWTT wrote:

Forgot to mention that the first time I was in Beijing in 2009, the air smell was like a cross between burning plastic and wood smoke! Very disgusting. Now the air in Beijing is even cleaner than compared to where I live in Brampton!

Thats communism! Getting results for people making their lives better and more substanable. 

Enjoy your debates about gun control in the US after you learn in the news about the latest US mass shooting tomorrow. 

Or if you speak Portuguese, you can go online and check out how many murders happened today in Brazil.  Should be around 200. 

 

I defend nothing in the status quo of Brazil OR of the U.S.   It's not as though the only options are what those countries are doing or Market Stalinism.  

There are good things currently happening in China.

None of them required the policies which caused large numbers of people to go hungry during the Great Leap Forward, or the artificially created paranoia which led to kids informing on their parents in the Cultural Revolution, or the milder, more recent, but still completely unjustified slaughter in Beijing in 1989, in which a "socialist" state massacred people as they sang the Internationale.

No ends justify those means.

Socialism needs to move past shit like that.  It needs to be about building the new world in the shell of the old, not about constantly denouncing people as "deviationists" and "capitalist roaders".    

It needs to be built from below, because it can't truly be built from above, and can't be imposed through the use of fear.   Why stay with the "the leading role of the party MUST be maintained" thing when it was always a mockery of the spirit of socialism?  

Why not build a socialism, a radical revolutionary socialism, that is free and equal from the start?

NDPP

Already posted this in the Brazil thread but perhaps it will be useful here as well:

'Pinochet via Fujimori': Wall Street's New Man in Brazil, Jair Bolsonaro

http://rabble.ca/comment/5487751#comment-5487751

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

NDPP wrote:

Already posted this in the Brazil thread but perhaps it will be useful here as well:

'Pinochet via Fujimori': Wall Street's New Man in Brazil, Jair Bolsonaro

http://rabble.ca/comment/5487751#comment-5487751

Agreed that it would be a nightmare if he got in.  

NDPP

It's not looking good Ken...

Brazil's Far Right Presidential Candidate Jair Bolsonaro Takes Huge Poll Lead Ahead of Election

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/jair-bolsonaro-poll-le...

"Brazil's far-right political candidate has taken a commanding lead over his rival less than two weeks before an election which has already polarised the country. Polls show Mr Bolsonaro is on course to take 59 per cent of the vote, leaving his opponent, leftwing academic and former mayor of Sao Paolo Fernando Haddad, with just 41 per cent. The run-off vote between the two candidates takes place on 28 October..."

Looks like Wall Street may get their Brazilian Strongman. 

lagatta4

Yes, that is horrible. I have two close friends (in Paris) who had to flee that dictatorship; they are quite old now but both doing very well, thank Bastet. They are both taking part in the protests there (in Paris). Both have been back to Brazil for extended periods, but it is hard to go back home after decades.

I certainly wouldn't call China communist these days, but they have retained some aspects of state planning that underwrite there admirably rapid transition to cleaner air and state-of-the-art public transport.

MegB

Ken Burch wrote:

WWWTT wrote:

Forgot to mention that the first time I was in Beijing in 2009, the air smell was like a cross between burning plastic and wood smoke! Very disgusting. Now the air in Beijing is even cleaner than compared to where I live in Brampton!

Thats communism! Getting results for people making their lives better and more substanable. 

Enjoy your debates about gun control in the US after you learn in the news about the latest US mass shooting tomorrow. 

Or if you speak Portuguese, you can go online and check out how many murders happened today in Brazil.  Should be around 200. 

 

I defend nothing in the status quo of Brazil OR of the U.S.   It's not as though the only options are what those countries are doing or Market Stalinism.  

There are good things currently happening in China.

None of them required the policies which caused large numbers of people to go hungry during the Great Leap Forward, or the artificially created paranoia which led to kids informing on their parents in the Cultural Revolution, or the milder, more recent, but still completely unjustified slaughter in Beijing in 1989, in which a "socialist" state massacred people as they sang the Internationale.

No ends justify those means.

Socialism needs to move past shit like that.  It needs to be about building the new world in the shell of the old, not about constantly denouncing people as "deviationists" and "capitalist roaders".    

It needs to be built from below, because it can't truly be built from above, and can't be imposed through the use of fear.   Why stay with the "the leading role of the party MUST be maintained" thing when it was always a mockery of the spirit of socialism?  

Why not build a socialism, a radical revolutionary socialism, that is free and equal from the start?

I have, at various times throughout my political education, identified as a libertarian socialist, a communist and an anarchist. At this point in time I identify as a pragmatic anarchosocialist. I work both within the system, as it exists, and work towards its global demise. I can't think of any other way to approach revolutionary change without acknowledging that a framework for that must include many modes of political thought. Communism, as it has been practised, has benefited the many but persecuted opposition. That, to me, is a sign of weakness. If your system cannot withstand opposition then it is a dead end, regardless of the benefits it bestows. Chinese communism has benefited from engaging in capitalism but they still abuse human rights in antithesis of what socialism represents. Their models for dealing with dissent haven't changed, nor have ours in the west.

With regard to Brazil, the almost inevitable election of a fascist leader is following a global trend towards racist intolerant populism. It's important to understand that these movements do not happen in a vacuum. They are a response to crisis, this current one being a global existential one. They are not immune to the zeitgeist, the understanding of how we are implicit in our own extinction. Rather, they are sociopathic nihilists. End of Days Christian zealots are only a means to an end that does not extend beyond their own existence. Cultism is rampant.

We are I believe, as progressives, the last line of defense. We may disagree on tactics and outcomes but we all want our species to survive. 

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

There is nothing I would add to the excellent post by MegB. Thanks for the clear and accurate summary of our current situation. Personally, I am becoming more pessimistic. Previously, I thought I would be safely dead before the final demise of civilization, but now I fear I may live long enough to perish in that event.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Thats communism! Getting results for people making their lives better and more substanable.

That's adorable.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

NDPP wrote:

It's not looking good Ken...

Brazil's Far Right Presidential Candidate Jair Bolsonaro Takes Huge Poll Lead Ahead of Election

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/jair-bolsonaro-poll-le...

"Brazil's far-right political candidate has taken a commanding lead over his rival less than two weeks before an election which has already polarised the country. Polls show Mr Bolsonaro is on course to take 59 per cent of the vote, leaving his opponent, leftwing academic and former mayor of Sao Paolo Fernando Haddad, with just 41 per cent. The run-off vote between the two candidates takes place on 28 October..."

Looks like Wall Street may get their Brazilian Strongman. 

And that is a horrific thing.  I'm not sure how talking about a "communist revolution" is going to assist the fight against Bolsonaro, given that, if elected, he's going to spend every moment calling all of his opponents "communists" and invoking what the Soviet Union turned out like.  Why use phraseology that will give the U.S. clear sanction to back a massive, bloody crackdown against everyone on the Left in Brazil.

If Bolsonaro wins, it will be the culmination of a slow motion coup that began with the trumped-up charges against Dilma Rousseff.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

MegB wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

WWWTT wrote:

Forgot to mention that the first time I was in Beijing in 2009, the air smell was like a cross between burning plastic and wood smoke! Very disgusting. Now the air in Beijing is even cleaner than compared to where I live in Brampton!

Thats communism! Getting results for people making their lives better and more substanable. 

Enjoy your debates about gun control in the US after you learn in the news about the latest US mass shooting tomorrow. 

Or if you speak Portuguese, you can go online and check out how many murders happened today in Brazil.  Should be around 200. 

 

I defend nothing in the status quo of Brazil OR of the U.S.   It's not as though the only options are what those countries are doing or Market Stalinism.  

There are good things currently happening in China.

None of them required the policies which caused large numbers of people to go hungry during the Great Leap Forward, or the artificially created paranoia which led to kids informing on their parents in the Cultural Revolution, or the milder, more recent, but still completely unjustified slaughter in Beijing in 1989, in which a "socialist" state massacred people as they sang the Internationale.

No ends justify those means.

Socialism needs to move past shit like that.  It needs to be about building the new world in the shell of the old, not about constantly denouncing people as "deviationists" and "capitalist roaders".    

It needs to be built from below, because it can't truly be built from above, and can't be imposed through the use of fear.   Why stay with the "the leading role of the party MUST be maintained" thing when it was always a mockery of the spirit of socialism?  

Why not build a socialism, a radical revolutionary socialism, that is free and equal from the start?

I have, at various times throughout my political education, identified as a libertarian socialist, a communist and an anarchist. At this point in time I identify as a pragmatic anarchosocialist. I work both within the system, as it exists, and work towards its global demise. I can't think of any other way to approach revolutionary change without acknowledging that a framework for that must include many modes of political thought. Communism, as it has been practised, has benefited the many but persecuted opposition. That, to me, is a sign of weakness. If your system cannot withstand opposition then it is a dead end, regardless of the benefits it bestows. Chinese communism has benefited from engaging in capitalism but they still abuse human rights in antithesis of what socialism represents. Their models for dealing with dissent haven't changed, nor have ours in the west.

With regard to Brazil, the almost inevitable election of a fascist leader is following a global trend towards racist intolerant populism. It's important to understand that these movements do not happen in a vacuum. They are a response to crisis, this current one being a global existential one. They are not immune to the zeitgeist, the understanding of how we are implicit in our own extinction. Rather, they are sociopathic nihilists. End of Days Christian zealots are only a means to an end that does not extend beyond their own existence. Cultism is rampant.

We are I believe, as progressives, the last line of defense. We may disagree on tactics and outcomes but we all want our species to survive. 

What MegB said.

NDPP

Chomsky in Brazil

https://youtu.be/ydUb6lXJ_8c

"There is a significant decline in democratic institutions..."

WWWTT

What’s going on right now in Brazil is hands down the worst crisis in the world!!!

The US imperialist mechanisms are in full swing taking advantage of so called open democracy. 

The problem with Brazil is the same as the problem with some/ many progressives. Some progressives, feel that somehow, the imperialists will play by the rules. Let’s all have a big fair election, big heated passionate debates and let the best people win. Because the voters are always right! Big stupid sorry sad mistake that will always result in the corporations winning and socialism losing. 

The reason why the people’s socialism environmental and human rights standards are so hi in Communist China is because Mao recognized very early on the real threat of imperialism. And that in order for socialism to be successful, it needs a people’s army to defend it. 

Now I’m not sure how this run off will end. But I do feel this woman is Brazil’s best hope!

https://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Brazil-Who-Is-Manuela-DAvila-VP-Candidate-for-Workers-Communist-Parties-20180915-0007.html

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
The US imperialist mechanisms are in full swing taking advantage of so called open democracy.

Can you tell us more?  With concrete details?  Or is this just something you "heard"?

Quote:
Mao recognized very early on the real threat of imperialism.

Mao recognized very early on the real threat of people voting.

WWWTT

Hi Mr Magoo

oh fuckin right the US is involved!  Not the first time either. The 1964 military coup to suppress Brazilian communism was supported by the US. Just google it. 

Polls before the election and results were crazy crazy out of whack! Clearly votes are fraudulent. It’s still early but with the history, don’t be surprised 

As far as Your view of Mao goes, classic Mr Magoo. 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
oh fuckin right the US is involved!  Not the first time either. The 1964 military coup to suppress Brazilian communism was supported by the US. Just google it.

I wasn't asking about the past, I was asking about the present, and whether you would share details of this involvement with us.

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

WWWTT wrote:

Hi Mr Magoo

oh fuckin right the US is involved!  Not the first time either. The 1964 military coup to suppress Brazilian communism was supported by the US. Just google it. 

Polls before the election and results were crazy crazy out of whack! Clearly votes are fraudulent. It’s still early but with the history, don’t be surprised 

As far as Your view of Mao goes, classic Mr Magoo. 

The U.S.-led coup in Brazil was against a democratic left-wing government-Joao Goulart was not a Communist.  The U.S. called him a Communist, but that's what they called everybody to the left of Vlad the Impaler in those days.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

It's no answer at all to Brazil's situation to call for "Communism".  You're not going to convince the population of that country to replace Bolsonaro-if he does win-with a Market Stalinist-type regime.  The resistance to Bolsonaro and the recovery of the Brazilian left is going to have to steer clear of anything remotely like the Chinese or Soviet models.  

Revolution, yes.  Outdated and brutally dictatorial models that deny working people democratic control of the means of production, no.

WWWTT

MegB wrote

Chinese communism has benefited from engaging in capitalism but they still abuse human rights in antithesis of what socialism represents. Their models for dealing with dissent haven't changed, nor have ours in the west.

How does China still abuse human rights? By promoting atheism? Science? Green energy? Reducing CO2? Advancing literacy? Reducing poverty? Improving quality of life for HUNDREDS OF MILIIONS? Promoting world peace? Helping Africa industrialize so that the African people can finally move out from the shadow of welfare cast on it by the west? Oh I can go on, but I think you get the idea.

What do you mean by "antithesis of socialism"? (not to mention "engaging in capitalism" since over 75% of the corporations are state owned)I just described a big chunk of what defines socialism in China above, promoted by the Chinese communst party. Is it perfect? Absolutely not! Is there room for improvement? Sure there is. But what's your solution? Who is your role model? And please, don't say Iceland!

 

 

WWWTT

Ken Burch wrote:

It's no answer at all to Brazil's situation to call for "Communism". 

Actually Manuela is an elected female communist running for vice president! I posted the link up thread but understandibly you missed it durring one of your hyper ventilating rants about Chairman Mao biting the heads off of new born babies when he was on tour with Ozzy Ozbourne.

MegB

WWWTT wrote:

How does China still abuse human rights?

You mean since they killed thousands of Chinese citizens in 1989? Before that? More recently? I have the feeling that any response I give to this will be interpreted by you as western propaganda. Your rigid dogmatism doesn't really allow for criticism of your favourite authoritarian regimes so there is really no point, is there.

ETA: I've corrected the grammar in your thread title. 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

WWWTT wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

It's no answer at all to Brazil's situation to call for "Communism". 

Actually Manuela is an elected female communist running for vice president! I posted the link up thread but understandibly you missed it durring one of your hyper ventilating rants about Chairman Mao biting the heads off of new born babies when he was on tour with Ozzy Ozbourne.

I didn't say that no one identified with any Communist Party anywhere should play a role in the Left.  Chilean Communists played a crucial role in the Allende project.  What I was talking about there was the idea of the revolution being LED by an old-style vanguardist party who still buys into the nonsense about "deviationists" and "running dogs" and the stupid "you have to break eggs to make an omelet" metaphor.

Everybody on this board recognizes the danger of imperialism-silencing dissenting speech has nothing to do with fighting imperialism.  

NDPP

'Rigid dogmatism' is frequently a value judgement on somebody else's opinion. Both are or should be permissable here. What should not be permissable here is for one person's 'rigid dogmatism' to become compulsory because it is regarded as the more orthodox view.  This can only occur if one of the disputing parties is possessed of powers the other doesn't have to 'enforce' their view via the intimidation of 'might makes right' over the other. It has happened here before. I hope not to see it happen again.

WWWTT

Thanks for the thread title. Sounds like you understand what I was thinking. 

As far as your version on Tiananmen goes, here’s some reasonable arguments to counter

https://prolecenter.wordpress.com/2014/06/04/tiananmen-the-massacre-that-wasnt/

https://blog.hiddenharmonies.org/2012/05/30/lets-talk-about-tiananmen-sq...

Ever thought Tiananmen Square 1989 protest was a CIA front like the Arab spring? Ya probably not. Here’s one link of a shitload out there!

https://www.sott.net/article/280086-The-Truth-about-Tiananmen-Square-pro...

Here’s some more facts. During Japanese invasions, 20 million Chinese people were slaughtered. I seriously hope you don’t deny this fact because that would be like denying the Jewish holocaust. Britain addicted the Chinese to opium to balance a trade dispute. China suffered the endless waves of attempts of colonialism by pretty much all of Western Europe and Russia.

Are the Chinese communists behind in lgbtq rights? Advancement of women in high levels of government? Corporal punishment? Sure. Are you going to take into account that many Western countries have never suffered such atrocities and in fact actually profited from them, giving us a huge head start?

How about you cut the CPC a break.

I should add that the Indigenous peoples of the Americas were invaded slaughtered and wiped off the the face of the Earth! So there are people in the west that can completely relate.

Fast forward to Brazil

Brazil is suffering every day from huge crime rates and murder rates. Huge inequality illiteracy unemployment. The Brazilians have a desperate reality. Their political judicial system is a joke and corrupt to the core.

Proposing a Maoist style communist revolution is very reasonable. Keeping in mind it that it would have its own Brazilian twist.

MegB

WWWTT wrote:

Thanks for the thread title. Sounds like you understand what I was thinking. 

As far as your version on Tiananmen goes, here’s some reasonable arguments to counter

https://prolecenter.wordpress.com/2014/06/04/tiananmen-the-massacre-that-wasnt/

https://blog.hiddenharmonies.org/2012/05/30/lets-talk-about-tiananmen-sq... Ever thought Tiananmen Square 1989 protest was a CIA front like the Arab spring? Ya probably not. Here’s one link of a shitload out there! https://www.sott.net/article/280086-The-Truth-about-Tiananmen-Square-pro... Here’s some more facts. During Japanese invasions, 20 million Chinese people were slaughtered. I seriously hope you don’t deny this fact because that would be like denying the Jewish holocaust. Britain addicted the Chinese to opium to balance a trade dispute. China suffered the endless waves of attempts of colonialism by pretty much all of Western Europe and Russia. Are the Chinese communists behind in lgbtq rights? Advancement of women in high levels of government? Corporal punishment? Sure. Are you going to take into account that many Western countries have never suffered such atrocities and in fact actually profited from them, giving us a huge head start? How about you cut the CPC a break. I should add that the Indigenous peoples of the Americas were invaded slaughtered and wiped off the the face of the Earth! So there are people in the west that can completely relate. Fast forward to Brazil Brazil is suffering every day from huge crime rates and murder rates. Huge inequality illiteracy unemployment. The Brazilians have a desperate reality. Their political judicial system is a joke and corrupt to the core. Proposing a Maoist style communist revolution is very reasonable. Keeping in mind it that it would have its own Brazilian twist.

I have no particular issue with communism/socialism in general. I take issue with authoritarian regimes who abuse their citizens, regardless of their form of sociopolitical organization. Yes, I am familiar with Japanese atrocities committed against the Chinese, yes I know of colonialist Britain's role in the opium trade and am in no way an apologist for Western atrocities - current and past - nor do I lack understanding of what motivates state behaviors in that direction. I would, however, disagree that a Maoist communist state with a "Brazilian twist" is the way to go. Brazil, if it determines communism/socialism is the direction they want to go then they will decide what that looks like and not necessarily import an ideology belonging to another communist/socialist state of your preference. Because, as you know, when we think we know what's best for another state, other peoples, we are engaging in exactly the kind of colonialist thinking that we rightly criticize.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
It has happened here before. I hope not to see it happen again.

Nobody has ever been banned for their "rigid dogmatism".

People have been banned for being chronic assholes, though, and repeatedly violating the AUP.   Maybe that's what you're recalling?

WWWTT

MegB wrote

Because, as you know, when we think we know what's best for another state, other peoples, we are engaging in exactly the kind of colonialist thinking that we rightly criticize.

Agreed

I will share a personal story.

My father did live in Brazil for a couple years in the 1950's before I was born. I remember a story he told me. During his delivery job in the early morning, he found a bag on the side of the road while walking back to his vehicle. He looked inside and found a dead baby girl. He started shaking uncontrollably and fled the country within the month. Now I forget where exactly he was in Brazil.

I have also worked alongside with other Brazilians in construction and heard similar stories of horrific violence.

I'm forwarding a possible solution that has  proven success. Obviously it's up to the Brazilian people. Currently the system they have has allowed to a potentially very dangerous future. I seriously hope they can overcome and succeed!

 

NDPP

TRNN: Political Violence Escalates in Brazil as Historic Presidential Race Enters Final Phase 

https://therealnews.com/stories/political-violence-escalates-in-brazil-a...

"Supporters of far-right candidate Jair Bolsonaro have attacked dozens of his opponents, killing two, while a social media campaign spins out of control with lies about Workers Party candidate Fernando Haddad..."

UPDATES: Brasil Wire

https://twitter.com/BrasilWire

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

WWWTT wrote:

Thanks for the thread title. Sounds like you understand what I was thinking. 

As far as your version on Tiananmen goes, here’s some reasonable arguments to counter

https://prolecenter.wordpress.com/2014/06/04/tiananmen-the-massacre-that-wasnt/

https://blog.hiddenharmonies.org/2012/05/30/lets-talk-about-tiananmen-sq... Ever thought Tiananmen Square 1989 protest was a CIA front like the Arab spring? Ya probably not. Here’s one link of a shitload out there! https://www.sott.net/article/280086-The-Truth-about-Tiananmen-Square-pro... Here’s some more facts. During Japanese invasions, 20 million Chinese people were slaughtered. I seriously hope you don’t deny this fact because that would be like denying the Jewish holocaust. Britain addicted the Chinese to opium to balance a trade dispute. China suffered the endless waves of attempts of colonialism by pretty much all of Western Europe and Russia. Are the Chinese communists behind in lgbtq rights? Advancement of women in high levels of government? Corporal punishment? Sure. Are you going to take into account that many Western countries have never suffered such atrocities and in fact actually profited from them, giving us a huge head start? How about you cut the CPC a break. I should add that the Indigenous peoples of the Americas were invaded slaughtered and wiped off the the face of the Earth! So there are people in the west that can completely relate. Fast forward to Brazil Brazil is suffering every day from huge crime rates and murder rates. Huge inequality illiteracy unemployment. The Brazilians have a desperate reality. Their political judicial system is a joke and corrupt to the core. Proposing a Maoist style communist revolution is very reasonable. Keeping in mind it that it would have its own Brazilian twist.

Nobody here would deny the brutality the Chinese and the British used in China and you know it.  

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

I am curious to know how the rise of evengelical indpendent churches had an influence on the amazing rise of Bolsonaro on the political scene. I was so surprised by the number of storefront places of worship I saw when I was travelling through parts of the country in 2014. It certainly outnumbered the Catholic churches spotted which is surprising for what was considered a predominantly Catholic country.

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

laine lowe wrote:

I am curious to know how the rise of evengelical indpendent churches had an influence on the amazing rise of Bolsonaro on the political scene. I was so surprised by the number of storefront places of worship I saw when I was travelling through parts of the country in 2014. It certainly outnumbered the Catholic churches spotted which is surprising for what was considered a predominantly Catholic country.

 

Well, it's significant that Bolsonaro has the support of what's known as the "Beef, Bible, and Bullets" bloc in the Brazilian politics-an alliance of cattle ranchers, evangelicals and the "security forces".  https://nacla.org/news/2017/08/10/beef-bullets-and-bible-caucus-and-new-...

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

(self-delete.dupe post).

 

NDPP

laine lowe wrote:

I am curious to know how the rise of evengelical indpendent churches had an influence on the amazing rise of Bolsonaro on the political scene. I was so surprised by the number of storefront places of worship I saw when I was travelling through parts of the country in 2014. It certainly outnumbered the Catholic churches spotted which is surprising for what was considered a predominantly Catholic country.

 

NDPP wrote:

From the BrasilWire Updating Twitter feed @ #32

http://www.brasilwire.com/holy-war/

WWWTT

MegB wrote:

 

I have no particular issue with communism/socialism in general. I take issue with authoritarian regimes who abuse their citizens, regardless of their form of sociopolitical organization. Yes, I am familiar with Japanese atrocities committed against the Chinese, yes I know of colonialist Britain's role in the opium trade and am in no way an apologist for Western atrocities - current and past - nor do I lack understanding of what motivates state behaviors in that direction. I would, however, disagree that a Maoist communist state with a "Brazilian twist" is the way to go. Brazil, if it determines communism/socialism is the direction they want to go then they will decide what that looks like and not necessarily import an ideology belonging to another communist/socialist state of your preference. Because, as you know, when we think we know what's best for another state, other peoples, we are engaging in exactly the kind of colonialist thinking that we rightly criticize.

Something doesn't sit right with me about my original responce to this comment so I'll revisit it.

First off, human rights are not up to westerners to define. Human rights are defined by all the peoples in the world. Imposing the "western definition" of human rights on the Brazilians or Chinese would actually be similar to colonialism. Large population countries like Brazil India US China Indonesia and others have unique circumstances that need to be addressed. 

Here's some links that should put an end to this "oh we're all worried about human rights in China" fake act

https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-key-perception-differences-on-human-r...

https://www.uts.edu.au/sites/default/files/com-student-work-luci-bamford...

http://en.people.cn/200202/11/eng20020211_90299.shtml

And MegB this link brings the relationship between Maoism and Brazils current dire reality together

http://www.chinaembassy.lt/eng/zt/zfbps/t125236.htm#2

Imperialists can't be trusted! What you call opposing voices, imperialism calls oportunity

Either way, Brazil has elected communist leaders. Communist China is thriving now more than ever. And as hard as western corporate media tries to paint communism China as "bad guys", people in the west won't be stupid forever and will eventually start asking questions like "why does everyone have a job in communist China (3.83% unemployment), is happy and friendly and why aren't they angry like us electing whack jobs like Ford? 

If a political system needs to allow opposing voices to justify itself, and those opposing voices take advantage of this weakness (Doug Ford and Bolsonaro), then that system is screwed.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

WWWTT wrote:

MegB wrote:

 

I have no particular issue with communism/socialism in general. I take issue with authoritarian regimes who abuse their citizens, regardless of their form of sociopolitical organization. Yes, I am familiar with Japanese atrocities committed against the Chinese, yes I know of colonialist Britain's role in the opium trade and am in no way an apologist for Western atrocities - current and past - nor do I lack understanding of what motivates state behaviors in that direction. I would, however, disagree that a Maoist communist state with a "Brazilian twist" is the way to go. Brazil, if it determines communism/socialism is the direction they want to go then they will decide what that looks like and not necessarily import an ideology belonging to another communist/socialist state of your preference. Because, as you know, when we think we know what's best for another state, other peoples, we are engaging in exactly the kind of colonialist thinking that we rightly criticize.

Something doesn't sit right with me about my original responce to this comment so I'll revisit it.

First off, human rights are not up to westerners to define. Human rights are defined by all the peoples in the world. Imposing the "western definition" of human rights on the Brazilians or Chinese would actually be similar to colonialism. Large population countries like Brazil India US China Indonesia and others have unique circumstances that need to be addressed. 

Here's some links that should put an end to this "oh we're all worried about human rights in China" fake act

https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-key-perception-differences-on-human-r...

https://www.uts.edu.au/sites/default/files/com-student-work-luci-bamford...

http://en.people.cn/200202/11/eng20020211_90299.shtml

And MegB this link brings the relationship between Maoism and Brazils current dire reality together

http://www.chinaembassy.lt/eng/zt/zfbps/t125236.htm#2

Imperialists can't be trusted! What you call opposing voices, imperialism calls oportunity

Either way, Brazil has elected communist leaders. Communist China is thriving now more than ever. And as hard as western corporate media tries to paint communism China as "bad guys", people in the west won't be stupid forever and will eventually start asking questions like "why does everyone have a job in communist China (3.83% unemployment), is happy and friendly and why aren't they angry like us electing whack jobs like Ford? 

If a political system needs to allow opposing voices to justify itself, and those opposing voices take advantage of this weakness (Doug Ford and Bolsonaro), then that system is screwed.

You're assuming dissent only happens as a result of imperialist meddling.   Nor is it anything but bullshit to imply that all dissidents were secretly working for a capitalist restoration-the Krondstadt rebels, for example, simply fought against the end of workers' control of the factories and against the reduction of the local soviets to rubber-stamp institutions with no actual decision making-power.  Almost none of the dissent in China is about that.  It's not imperialist meddling that there's a radical alternative labor movement, there's a strong green movement, ethnic and linguistic minorities standing against Beijing's pointless fixation with Mandarin domination.  None of that is about a capitalist restoration or about Western dominance.  Do you actually buy into the idea that anyone in China who publicly disagrees with the regime about anything wants the country to be a freaking colony again?

That's as absurd as Brezhnev's insistence that the Soviet Union could only be preserved if the Prague Spring was crushed-an insistence which ended up sealing the doom of the Warsaw Pact countries, because it convinced people in those countries that the only chance they had of ending the repression they lived under, repression they'd done nothing to deserve, was to try and bring the entire system down.

It would never have threatened the survival of the USSR to allow at least an independent Left press to exist in Prague, Warsaw, Berlin or Budapest, or simply let people buy rock albums and wear blue jeans and be able to blow off steam about the leaders in a private room with friends without fear of arrest.  And it was never going to be sustainable, either in those places in the past or in Beijing or Shanghai or Guangzhou today, to demand perpetual unquestioning obedience from the entire population by pretending a massively fortified state like China could possibly be under threat of an imperalist takeover.

Socialism is about liberation.  It can't truly be built through fear.  That's why it failed in the Warsaw Pact-had it been allowed to be as open, vibrant and small-d democratic as the original Bolshevik vision, it would have taken root.  Instead, Stalin imposed it in those places as if administering a punishment, alienating millions of people who actually had welcolmed the Red Army as liberators.  In the same way, every Chinese leader since 1989 seems to have taken "keep punishing the rebels of '89" as a personal maxim.  Yes, prosperity has come, as it was likely bound to, but none of that is due to censorship or the revival of old-style Chinese Nationalism or the demonization of gays or any of the other measures designed to instill fear.  The fear didn't build anything.

I say that as a lifetime opponent of imperialism who despises everything the Western powers ever did to Asia, Africa or Latin America.

And yes, areas of Brazil have elected representatives that identified as small-c communist.  Fine-nobody in this thead has ever argued that all communists were personally evil-although Lula and Joao Goulart were always part of independent Left traditions, and were part of coalition movements in which all parts of the Left were welcome and no one was denounced as a "deviationist", a "social fascist" or a "running dog".

The only points of contention I really have with you are over whether it could possibly work to import a Market Maoist model into a country like Brazil-I don't think it would be achievable do to the deeply spontaneous, diverse and essentially anti-authoritarian nature of the Brazilian working classes, and it would inevitably require a final, lethal betrayal of the Indigenous community there, since Market Maoists would likely out-ravage the ranchers and miners of Brazil in their lethal obsession with destroying what remains of the Amazon basin-and with what socialism is and how it must be built.  History keeps teaching us that it can't ever be effectively imposed from above, imposed as a series of edicts and commands, imposed with executions.  It needs to be an exercise in collective freedom and empowerment.  If not, it simply creates a regime, and a regime can only be statist, not socialist.  

 

 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Ordinarily I might suggest that if a country appears poised to choose a very right-wing government, they're probably not that interested in instead choosing a very left-wing one.

But since Brazilian voters seem enchanted by nostalgia for dictatorships, torture, and the sacrifice of a few human rights here and there "for the greater good", maybe they'd be a good fit for Maoism after all?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Last note for now:  Agreed that no one region of the world should presume define "human rights" for all regions.  Agreed that food, shelter and clothing should be human rights just as much as free speech and freedom of assembly.  By the same token, though:

A) No regime should ever presume to speak for all those it rules on the question of human rights; especially, no regime should ever presume to be able to say that those it denies freedom of expression to have themselves consented to the denial;

B) It's entirely possible to create a society that guarantees free speech and "three hots and a cot for your kids".  Why assume that can't be done?  

 

lagatta4

Brazilians ARE western. How the hell are they not western? North-South would make more sense. They are people who live in the western hemisphere, and most of them speak a European language (sometimes two or three) and the others speak Indigenous languages of the Western hemisphere. Brazil is the second most populated country in the Americas. They are exploited by imperialism, mostly but not exclusively US, but that does not make them non-Western. Please, no "othering".

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

lagatta4 wrote:

Brazilians ARE western. How the hell are they not western? North-South would make more sense. They are people who live in the western hemisphere, and most of them speak a European language (sometimes two or three) and the others speak Indigenous languages of the Western hemisphere. Brazil is the second most populated country in the Americas. They are exploited by imperialism, mostly but not exclusively US, but that does not make them non-Western. Please, no "othering".

True.  To clarify, I was using the geographical term in reference to China, in response to the assertion that nobody in China(or, should I say Zhongguo)cares about freedom of expression or constantly being monitored by the security forces or things like that.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Ken Burch wrote:

lagatta4 wrote:

Brazilians ARE western. How the hell are they not western? North-South would make more sense. They are people who live in the western hemisphere, and most of them speak a European language (sometimes two or three) and the others speak Indigenous languages of the Western hemisphere. Brazil is the second most populated country in the Americas. They are exploited by imperialism, mostly but not exclusively US, but that does not make them non-Western. Please, no "othering".

True.  To clarify, I was using the geographical term in reference to China, in response to the assertion that nobody in China(or, should I say Zhongguo)cares about freedom of expression or constantly being monitored by the security forces or things like that.

Most Chinese nationals I have met think they have the right to say what they want on social media. They have dissidents who don't like the system and minorities that are treated almost as bad as Canada treats it indigenous peoples but anyone who has gone to China in the last decade understands that the vast majority of the population love the peace and prosperity that the return to a neo-Confuscian system has brought to the country. I do know that China is at the forefront of many environmental issues so whatever system they are using it it seems to work for them. Of course since you live in a "Western" country you get to presume that other forms of governments are inherently less just compared to democracies like the US.

 

WWWTT

I suspect this Jair character is either green at diplomacy, a trojan horse or a bonafied idiot. Probably a combination. Not to mention a bunch of other stuff people sincerely have the right to be fearful of!

Brazil has huge environmental issues! Consideration of the Chinese model is nothing to be brushed aside!

Here's some related info worth the read

https://www.chinadialogue.net/article/show/single/en/10911-Brazil-s-new-...

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

lagatta4 wrote:

Brazilians ARE western. How the hell are they not western? North-South would make more sense. They are people who live in the western hemisphere, and most of them speak a European language (sometimes two or three) and the others speak Indigenous languages of the Western hemisphere. Brazil is the second most populated country in the Americas. They are exploited by imperialism, mostly but not exclusively US, but that does not make them non-Western. Please, no "othering".

True.  To clarify, I was using the geographical term in reference to China, in response to the assertion that nobody in China(or, should I say Zhongguo)cares about freedom of expression or constantly being monitored by the security forces or things like that.

Most Chinese nationals I have met think they have the right to say what they want on social media. They have dissidents who don't like the system and minorities that are treated almost as bad as Canada treats it indigenous peoples but anyone who has gone to China in the last decade understands that the vast majority of the population love the peace and prosperity that the return to a neo-Confuscian system has brought to the country. I do know that China is at the forefront of many environmental issues so whatever system they are using it it seems to work for them. Of course since you live in a "Western" country you get to presume that other forms of governments are inherently less just compared to democracies like the US.

 

1) I respect the right of Chinese nationals to say what they wish to say.  My comment was about the implication that the Chinese government can claim to speak for all Chinese, which is just as absurd and arrogant as any other government claiming to speak for all those it rules;

2) If individual Chinese are happy with their own system, that is their right to be so.  Nothing I said was in any way a challenge to that;

3) I don't hold my OWN country's government up as an shining example of anything.  It isn't always "my state can beat up your state".

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..i remember when there were uprisings in brazil where the pot bangers were out in mass. they were protesting the corruption in government and were calling to throw them all out. factories were starting to be taken over by the workers. in desperation the government put a new candidate forward as a way of appeasing the masses. he was rejected by the people and the protests continued. this happened a couple of time with the same result. finally they put lula forward who was viewed by the people as the best of a bad lot.

..so the uprising was for the moment quelled. but the tensions never left. 2016 i visited a friend in porto alegre for a month. the day of my arrival all the bank workers in the country went on strike. this caused me problems because i menat to exchange my money there due to no fees for exchange. while the locals could still access the bank machines there were no counter services. in spite of this it thrilled me to view this action. went to the picket line several times. the strike ended the day i left. :) 

..the first time my friend took me to the public market in the city center (it's been there for 200 yrs) teachers were marching  through the streets. this was after dilma rousseff was ejected from the government and the were protesting the changes that were being made to the labour standards. wiping out many gains made through hard struggle over the years.

..about a 1/2 block away from the the teachers a group of young people had set up a barrier made flimsy wooden fruit crates that spanned across the street which stopped the traffic dead in it's tracks. there was a cop looking on. i never found out what they were protesting. 

..while i do feel something is needed i don't believe it's a communist revolution. but i have much respect for the level of struggle going on in this young democracy.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

The character of what is now an antifascist resistance movement needs to be decided by Brazilian antifascists themselves, and must be shaped to their multicultural fact and their conditions, and those of us standing in solidarity from outside need to follow whatever lead THEY give.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..the antifascist aspect will more likely be expanded but there are indicators as to the direction the struggle will go in. here's some examples.

..eta: old link is dead this is a new link

Building autonomy with agroecology

I am not a slave, nor an object - I have no owner, I am not a piece of property - I want freedom to be a woman...”. These were the chants of over 5000 women smallholder farmers from the Borborema Pole farmers’ union and from other regions in the state of Paraíba in Brazil as they marched through the city of Lagoa Seca in early 2015. Their songs became the marching call in the struggle for autonomy, for an end to all forms of oppression and violence against women, and in support of agroecology. Dressed in white or in lilac, with flags in hand and hats on their heads, the women took to the streets as part of the 6th March for the Lives of Women and Agroecology. They shared experiences and discussed different forms of violence that they experience. The march was organised by a strong network of female farmer-innovators who have been driving change in the lives of hundreds of women, and creating a development plan for the region based on agroecology.

Canoas: A Government of, for and by the People

Oakland, New York, Minneapolis, among others, are exploring the possibility of “participatory budgeting,” an initiative to shift decision-making on development projects from the government to the community, and increase citizen engagement. In order to better understand the process, delegations from these cities visited Canoas, an industrial city of 350,000 in Southern Brazil. What they discovered there was a lot more than one innovative program, but a “new system of participatory government.”

Beginning in 2009, with the election of a radical Workers’ Party candidate, Jairo Jorge, for Mayor, Canoas began a process of transformation, opening new possibilities for people to learn and practice self-government. Based on 4 principles, this new system allows for individuals as well as organizations to intervene and shape public policy and influence economic development.

quote:

Canoas is divided into 4 quadrants to foster accessibility, activism,  and decision-making. In 2011, the City organized a year-long Congress of the People, in which over 6000 residents participated as individuals and as organizations in setting sustainable development priorities for the next ten years.

For the “Participatory Budgeting,” the quadrants are divided into micro-districts, to allow for more participation in the neighborhoods. Every micro-district gets representation on a Counsel and has two projects approved.  The poorer the community, the smaller the district. The wealthier communities have much larger districts, so that more funding is channeled into the areas most in need.

While Austerity has been tearing Europe apart, Brazil and, above all, Canoas were implementing social programs that lifted 46% of the poorest out of a state of misery. Housing, food, education, health care and job opportunities go first to the most vulnerable populations: African descendants, the unemployed, and those earning minimum wages.

Autonomy in Brazil: towards a new political culture

quote:

The anti-capitalist character of the June protests and the movements behind them is revealed in their resistance to capitalist accumulation around mega-events and mega-projects — a model that we could describe as “urban extractivism”. The Zero Fare campaign is a response to urban extractivism, promoting access to social rights such as health, education and culture, and “the right to be able to move around the city itself, and from that to meet up, to reflect and to produce the tools to transform it.” (Legume and Toledo, 2011)

Another member of the Free Fare Movement, Marcelo Pomar, argues for the de-commodification of public transport, transforming it into an essential public service, the costs of which should be borne by those who benefit from the flow of goods and people. “Public transportation costs are a sophisticated mechanism of social control,” argues Pomar, functioning to allow the dominant class to enclose the popular sectors in the slums and peripheries of the city. (Coletivo Maria Tonha, 2013)

How can we not consider the fight to break this control mechanism an anti-capitalist struggle, when those from below actively change the place in society designated to them by the ruling class? The MPL argues that the Zero Fare campaign is a struggle for all and changes everything; it is a means to subvert the transport system and, thus, the whole structure of the city. Urban mobility is restricted by spatial, social, racial and gender segregation, to the point that, to give one example, people living in Brasilia’s satellite towns and working in the cities’ planned city center feel like prisoners in their suburbs. As night falls,”a kind of curfew takes hold in the city, affecting those who depend on public transport.” (Saraiva, 2010:99)