British election June 8, 2017

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josh
British election June 8, 2017
Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

mark_alfred

Now we will see whether Labour's move to the left was the panacea to its past electoral woes.  At the moment it seems most polling types are skeptical of Labour's electoral chances.

Pogo

I think there are so many factors at play. The lack of solidarity from the moderates, the break away from Labour in Scotland, and the internal divide in Labour over Brexit.  I think that regardless of the result everyone will find ample reasons to say they were right all along.

josh

mark_alfred wrote:

Now we will see whether Labour's move to the left was the panacea to its past electoral woes.  At the moment it seems most polling types are skeptical of Labour's electoral chances.

As I've said, I think Brexit makes it impossible for Labour right now regardless of who was leader.  And it's not Labour is coming off raging successes in 2010 and 2015.

Stockholm

If Labour had competent leadership - Brexit would be a disaster for the Tories and would usher in a Labour win...the Tories were far more divided on the EU than Labour was. This should have killed them off - but thanks to Corbyn incompetence they will win easily under Theresa May

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

The PLP should have accepted that the leadership question was resolved after the 2016 re-vote.  They had no right to keep trying to force Corbyn out after that, and all they did was to sabotage the party they claim to care about.

And there was nothing else Corbyn could have done in the EU ref.  He campaigned for Remain all over the UK.  He just couldn't pretend that the status quo was Utopia.

NorthReport

When your party is that divided, at some point, for the good of the party Corbyn should have resigned, as Labour winning this election was the perfect opportunity to bow out of Brexit. Now both the UK and Labour will pay the price.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

He was re-elected leader in a landslide in 2016.  His margin would have been far larger had it not been for the right-wing party bureaucracy suspending or expelling tens of thousands of his supporters.

There was never going to be any influx of new people coming in to replace them from the "center".

josh

Stockholm wrote:

If Labour had competent leadership - Brexit would be a disaster for the Tories and would usher in a Labour win...the Tories were far more divided on the EU than Labour was. This should have killed them off - but thanks to Corbyn incompetence they will win easily under Theresa May

What a load.  In case you forgot, Cameron resigned and May came in promising to follow through on the results of the referendum.  The party supported her and they've been able to poach votes from UKIP as a result.  Labour remains divided on the question, and divided between the PLP and the rank and file.  

josh

NorthReport wrote:

When your party is that divided, at some point, for the good of the party Corbyn should have resigned, as Labour winning this election was the perfect opportunity to bow out of Brexit. Now both the UK and Labour will pay the price.

You think Corbyn resigning would have resolved the divisions in the party, and the divisions over Brexit?  Tell me another one.

The people voted to exit the neo-liberal "nirvana" that is the EU.  Their decision should be respected.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Coalition, collaboration and tactical voting: that’s how to halt hard Brexit

quote:

All these aims are congruent with defeating May – and with each other: that is, if the parties at Westminster are prepared to be brave and act fast.

There is no time to form a formal “progressive alliance”. There is, however, ample opportunity to signal to the wider electorate and each other the appetite to govern in coalition, or with supply and confidence. On that basis, grassroots members of the opposition parties should come together to ensure a tactical vote for the best-placed anti-Tory candidate.

Our aim should not be a narrow majority: it should be to wipe out hard Brexit Toryism for a generation and reset Britain’s relationship with the EU as “half-out but heavily engaged”.

Labour’s strategy should be to make this a one issue election: Brexit with social justice, or Brexit in the hands of an uncontrollable nationalist clique – followed swiftly by the breakup of the UK and economic collapse.

The Tories are already having to impose a pay cap on millions of public servants, amid falling real wages in the private sector. Targets are scrapped one by one as they are missed. Elderly care is on the brink of chaos, as providers flee the sector. More than 1 million people have been forced on to zero-hours contracts. And, crucially, the housing market has turned – even before the Bank is obliged to hike interest rates.

But all this precedes the massive attack on workplace rights, human rights and the welfare system that the Conservatives will unleash under the hard-Brexit scenario.

josh

Projections based on current polls:

Tories 375 Labour 189 SNP 55 Lib Dems 8 Ukip 0

https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/854618188914581504

 

 

Pogo

They can have the deep split and add it to other historical deep splits. Unless there is a viable strategy for reversing Brexit the future is coming to terms with it.

NorthReport
Rev Pesky

Opposition to the government position on leaving the EU caolesces:

Best for Britain Plan

Gina Miller, the pro-EU campaigner behind a successful court challenge  over article 50, is planning to launch a tactical voting initiative to support election candidates opposed to a hard Brexit.

...a crowdfunding page set up immediately after Theresa May called the snap election quickly exceeded financial targets Wednesday.

There are a lot of votes out there for some party to harvest, if they can decide to be opposed to leaving the EU. The question is, will they go looking for those votes,  or continue with their in-fighting.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Hard Brexit:  you quit your job by shouting to all within earshot that your boss is an asshole, the company is screwing everyone and grabbing your crotch while smoking a huge cigar.

Soft Brexit:  you send your boss a discreet e-mail suggesting that you can no longer work on days that end with a "y", but also requesting to be notified of any long-weekend Fridays where there may be cake.

josh

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Hard Brexit:  you quit your job by shouting to all within earshot that your boss is an asshole, the company is screwing everyone and grabbing your crotch while smoking a huge cigar.

Soft Brexit:  you send your boss a discreet e-mail suggesting that you can no longer work on days that end with a "y", but also requesting to be notified of any long-weekend Fridays where there may be cake.

The first one sounds like fun.

josh

Rev Pesky wrote:

Opposition to the government position on leaving the EU caolesces:

Best for Britain Plan

Gina Miller, the pro-EU campaigner behind a successful court challenge  over article 50, is planning to launch a tactical voting initiative to support election candidates opposed to a hard Brexit.

...a crowdfunding page set up immediately after Theresa May called the snap election quickly exceeded financial targets Wednesday.

There are a lot of votes out there for some party to harvest, if they can decide to be opposed to leaving the EU. The question is, will they go looking for those votes,  or continue with their in-fighting.

Amazing.  Had the vote gone the other way, you would have the same people, and their corporate media allies, shouting down anyone suggesting that the matter was not settled.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

The Liberal Democrats have announced they will never join a coalition with Labour.  This proves they are NOT an anti-Tory party, since they cannot prevent a minority Tory government from coming to power without coalescing with Labour.

​The right-wing party bureaucracy at Labour HQ has issued emergency rules stating that ALL sitting MPs will automatically be re-selected.  This means that John Woodcock, the MP for Barrow-In-Furness, who is STILL calling for Jeremy Corbyn to resign and has said he will never support Corbyn becomining prime minister, must be re-selected if he asks to be(and it looks like he will).

The Liberal Democrats are now the enemies of progressive politics in the UK, and the Parliametary Labour Party is now the enemy of the Labour Party.

This cannot be described as anything but insanity.

josh

LOL.  As if the LDs would end up with enough seats to make a difference.

It seems pretty clear that Labour can't continue like this.  Either the Blairites break off and join the LD's or the left breaks off and either joins the Greens of form a new party.  

Rev Pesky

from josh:

Amazing.  Had the vote gone the other way, you would have the same people, and their corporate media allies, shouting down anyone suggesting that the matter was not settled.

All I suggested was that there were votes out there for a party which would maintain the UK in the EU. That is just a fact. It is also a fact that the Labour Party was opposed to leaving the EU.

​Ergo, they could maintain their established position re: leaving the EU, and quite probably become the voice for the very large number of voters who oppose leaving.

​On top of that, there is absolutely noting in leftist principle that suggests leaving the EU is somehow 'progressive'. The left does not, and should not, care about national boundaries, especially in this day and age when those boundaries are used to restrict workers, but not capital.

NorthReport

Apologies to josh but....

......the UK has one last chance to come to their senses and cancel Brexit

All that is needed is for one political party to run on that platform

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/20/european-parliament-wil...

Rev Pesky

Just saw that article myself. Some very interesting points, including the threat of a veto by the EU if the rights of EU citizens in the UK are not protected.

Unfortunately for Labour, it looks as though it will be the Liberal Democrats who will stand for reversing the process. However, there's still time. If Labour could agree amongst themselves to establish a platform centered around remaining in the EU, they could get themselves out of the miasma they're in.

josh

Rev Pesky wrote:

from josh:

Amazing.  Had the vote gone the other way, you would have the same people, and their corporate media allies, shouting down anyone suggesting that the matter was not settled.

All I suggested was that there were votes out there for a party which would maintain the UK in the EU. That is just a fact. It is also a fact that the Labour Party was opposed to leaving the EU.

​Ergo, they could maintain their established position re: leaving the EU, and quite probably become the voice for the very large number of voters who oppose leaving.

​On top of that, there is absolutely noting in leftist principle that suggests leaving the EU is somehow 'progressive'. The left does not, and should not, care about national boundaries, especially in this day and age when those boundaries are used to restrict workers, but not capital.

There's nothing?  If the Left believes that control of economic policy should be in the hands of neoliberal ideologies and capital, and not in the hands of democratically elected governments, then there's nothing left of the left.  

mark_alfred

There is some turbulence in the Conservative Party too, apparently.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/downing-street-chaos-theresa-mays-...

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:

Apologies to josh but....

......the UK has one last chance to come to their senses and cancel Brexit

All that is needed is for one political party to run on that platform

That's not all that would be needed.  Also required, now, would be the approval of the EU.

NorthReport

How dumb can the British be to go ahead with Brexit!

Brexit: EU demands Britain pay divorce bill in euros not pounds

Leaked document reveals a tougher stance from the EU, which has already said Britain might have to pay 60 billion euros as a condition of exiting the bloc 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-divorce-bill-uk-brexit-...

Rev Pesky

From josh:

 If the Left believes that control of economic policy should be in the hands of neoliberal ideologies and capital, and not in the hands of democratically elected governments, then there's nothing left of the left.  

This may come as a bit of a shock, but control of economic policy is already in the hands capital in all countries of the OECD, which includes the UK.  Do you really believe that somehow the UK Conservative party is less neo-liberal than the EU?

NorthReport

What a farce

Don’t believe Theresa May. The election won’t change Brexit one bit

I hope this election will lead to an honest debate about the bitter realities of Brexit. Perhaps then the fog of surrealism that has engulfed UK ministers will clear and we can have a serious discussion about our future relationship, which I hope will be a close one.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/22/dont-believe-there...

josh

Rev Pesky wrote:

From josh:

 If the Left believes that control of economic policy should be in the hands of neoliberal ideologies and capital, and not in the hands of democratically elected governments, then there's nothing left of the left.  

This may come as a bit of a shock, but control of economic policy is already in the hands capital in all countries of the OECD, which includes the UK.  Do you really believe that somehow the UK Conservative party is less neo-liberal than the EU?

Not necessarily.  But I know real Labour is.  And that's the difference.  There is no hope of anything better in the EU--there is no other way, sound familiar?--while there is hope if the British people are allowed to control their economic destiny.

NorthReport

Excellent!

The coming British bloodbath: Theresa May’s “snap election” will be an epic disaster for the left. But why?

Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party may be wiped off the map in the surprise British election. What the hell went wrong?

If you’re wondering how a government so weak, so unpopular and so obviously inept can nonetheless manage to crush the opposition, you’re wondering the right way. If you’re wondering how a nation can anticipate a landslide victory for the party in government while the majority of its people are angry, confused and deeply worried about the uncertain future they are facing, you’re not the only one. The answer is that Britain doesn’t do crypto-dictatorship with as much braggadocio as other nations I might mention, but we do it all the same. The answer is that British democracy is broken, and the pieces are on fire, and the people picking them up, the people trying to reassemble a fractured future for themselves in the shoddy rubble of this fucked-up country, will never work in Westminster.

http://www.salon.com/2017/04/22/the-coming-british-bloodbath-theresa-may...

Rev Pesky

From josh:
But I know real Labour is.  And that's the difference.  There is no hope of anything better in the EU--there is no other way, sound familiar?--while there is hope if the British people are allowed to control their economic destiny.

Are there no Labour parties in Europe? "If the British people are allowed to control their economic destiny"??? Where have you been living for the past forty years. Which country in the world, of any political description, is allowed to control it's own economic destiny?

​Every industrialized nation on planet Earth is bound by the rules of capital. There is no hope for labour to breaks those bonds on a country by country basis.

The only hope for labour, and for changes to the international 'rules', is for labour to unite across borders. 'Workers of the world, unite!' is more important now than ever. Returning to the salad days of nation states with their local bourgeoisie is no longer possible. Any individual country that tries to break the bonds will be dealt with harshy. Only a united working class has a chance against completely united and international capital.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Isn't this election exactly what Corbyn supporters have been wanting?  A chance to prove that it doesn't matter if he looks like he's wearing the same suit he slept in because his bold and unique policies resonate with the electorate?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Enough about the suit and the beard.

1) Mulcair has a beard, and you didn't care about this(Corbyn's beard is actually shorter tha Mulcair's)

2) What difference does it make how he dresses?  Where is it written that a prime minister has to dress like a CEO?

josh

Rev Pesky wrote:

From josh:
But I know real Labour is.  And that's the difference.  There is no hope of anything better in the EU--there is no other way, sound familiar?--while there is hope if the British people are allowed to control their economic destiny.

Are there no Labour parties in Europe? "If the British people are allowed to control their economic destiny"??? Where have you been living for the past forty years. Which country in the world, of any political description, is allowed to control it's own economic destiny?

​Every industrialized nation on planet Earth is bound by the rules of capital. There is no hope for labour to breaks those bonds on a country by country basis.

The only hope for labour, and for changes to the international 'rules', is for labour to unite across borders. 'Workers of the world, unite!' is more important now than ever. Returning to the salad days of nation states with their local bourgeoisie is no longer possible. Any individual country that tries to break the bonds will be dealt with harshy. Only a united working class has a chance against completely united and international capital.

And you think you're going to get that through the EU.  Did you see what they did to Greece? The working class has suffered through EU imposed austerity and privatizations.  You really think the cause of the working class is going to be advanced by a multinational group dedicated to the primacy of capital?

Rev Pesky

From josh:

... You really think the cause of the working class is going to be advanced by a multinational group dedicated to the primacy of capital?

Let's put it this way. It's just as likely as  the advancement of the working class through the UK Conservative Party. Or the Labour Party for that matter. The last Labour government in the UK spent their time kowtowing to the USA, joining the US wars of aggression, bowing to the demands of international capital, and calling itself 'New Labour'. What a joke that was.

So where is the advancement of the working class to come from, UKIP? The Greens? Liberal-Democrats?

'Socialism in one country' hasn't worked since it was proposed by Stalin. It's not going to work now.

josh

First not totally awful poll for Labour in a while:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4436044/Tory-lead-slashed-half-t...

 

mark_alfred
Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

From the Daily Mail story:

Could it be that Corbyn's Labour is in the process of taking off? Is this the beginning of the "big mo" that will carry them to victory? What'll you say if that happens, nicky?

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Enough about the suit and the beard.

I don't really begrudge him the face ferret.  I, too, have hairs on my face.  And I, too, don't really get too worried about what I'm wearing.  It was just glib shorthand for the criticisms of Corbyn.

But I do stand by the rest of that post.  Isn't an election the ultimate poll?  Not just the one poll that counts, but also the poll in which people will respond honestly, rather than "virtuously"?

The Corbyn thread has, for months, basically been a war of attrition between "He's more popular than Facebook and can win" and "He's dragging the Left over a cliff".  Won't this election at least settle that?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

He responded to the question about his leadership by standing for re-election and was re-elected.  If Corbyn had lost, he would have rallied all of his supporters to support his replacement. 

Why can't the anti-Corbynites admit that there was no good reason to keep demanding his resignation after the second leadership vote?  Or, if nothing else, admit that there was no reason to keep trying to force him out once the election was called?

​The Tories can be beaten.  They MUST be beaten. All-out work for Labour between now and May 9th is the ONLY way to do it.  And if the Tories win this election, it won't be worth trying to win any later elections.  History will be over in the UK if May gets a landslide.

josh

That's a bit extreme.  

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Why can't the anti-Corbynites admit that there was no good reason to keep demanding his resignation after the second leadership vote?  Or, if nothing else, admit that there was no reason to keep trying to force him out once the election was called?

OK, but that's a big part of my question.  As I understand it, Corbyn is popular, and the only reason that tens of  thousands of Brits couldn't support him was because his party wouldn't allow them.

So, aren't they out there ready to send a giant "fuck you" to the party by voting for him in record numbers?

To put it another way, what is support for Corbyn supposed to mean, if NOT support at the polls, in an election??  Are there people who steadfastly support him for party Leader, but May for Prime Minister?

NorthReport

When Nigel Farage met Julian Assange

Why did Ukip’s ex-leader want to slip in unnoticed to meet the WikiLeaks chief at the Ecuadorian embassy?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/23/when-nigel-farage-met-j...

NorthReport

Labour government would scrap Tories’ Brexit white paper, Keir Starmer says

The party says it would replace the Tories' negotiating priorities

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-brexit-position-vie...

NorthReport

Brexit opposition reaches record high one week after snap election announcement

While 44 per cent agree with Brexit, the same percentage think leaving the EU would be wrong

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-news-opposit...

NorthReport
epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Jeremy Corbyn says Labour will introduce four new bank holidays 'to give workers the break they deserve'

Jeremy Corbyn is set to announce that Labour will give workers four new bank holidays if the party wins the general election.

The proposals suggest public holidays on St David's Day (1 March), St Patrick’s Day (17 March), St George's Day (23 April) and St Andrew’s Day (30 November).

The UK currently has eight public holidays a year – the fewest of any G20 or EU country....

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

That may help.  A lot of voters respond well to proposals like that.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

I'm honestly not asking this as some kind of slam, but why are all four holidays all about Xtian saints?

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