British election June 8, 2017

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cco

Probably because each of those is the patron saint of one of the UK's four constituent "countries". I'm not a fan of the UK's establishment of religion, but I don't think a whole lot of people celebrate St. George's day with solemn prayer, any more than Irish-Canadians do with St. Patrick's.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
I don't think a whole lot of people celebrate St. George's day with solemn prayer, any more than Irish-Canadians do with St. Patrick's.

Nor Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, agnostics or atheists with either.

Maybe I'm being inconsistent in that I'm not urging any countries who make Christmas a holiday to "un-make" Christmas a holiday, but it does seem a bit anachronistic and exclusive to make up NEW Christian holidays in 2017 as though there were no other days on the calendar.  Even our own Stephen Harper, when officializing "Family Day" resisted the temptation to go with "Jesus, King-of-Kings Day".

 

Rev Pesky

Christmas, despite the name, is not a Christian holiday. It is a holday that celebrates the winter solstice, and was observed long before Rome became 'Christian'.

As to those proposed holidays, I wouldn't name them after Christian saints, even though those days are already established. I think I'd start with 'Tobacco Free Day', and no, I don' t mean free tobacco. Problem is, when you start trying to name new holidays, by the time you can settle on a name, the sun has exploded, and the earth burned to a crisp. A lot easier to use already available days.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

They had roots in the church, but those days are actually national days of each of the countries-or portions of countries-that make up the UK

St. David's day is a national day for Wales.

St. Andrew's is the same for Scotland.

St. Patrick's for Ireland(which is a gesture of respect towards the population of Northern Ireland)

St. George's for England(and also possibly Palestine, since the historical St. George would probably be considered Palestinian today).

 

 

NorthReport
Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Problem is, when you start trying to name new holidays, by the time you can settle on a name, the sun has exploded, and the earth burned to a crisp. A lot easier to use already available days.

OK.  But do we still celebrate "Family Day" the way it was celebrated in 600AD?

Quote:
They had roots in the church, but those days are actually national days of each of the countries-or portions of countries-that make up the UK

Group hug.

Again, this isn't the rock on which I make my stand, or anything.  But what if they'd gone with holidays from the top four cultures living in Britain instead?

There would still surely be a Christian one.  But what about making Eid a national holiday?  Or Yom Kippur?  Or just something other than St. White Guy, St. White Guy, St. White Guy and St. White Guy?

Or for that matter, no religions or cultures at all.  Just arbitrary days like "Flower day", "Tree day", "Bird Day" and "Nature Day"?  Then you can put them wherever on the calendar they make sense.  If a month has no holidays, it can have "Tree Day".

 

 

NorthReport

I think the UK needs a new holiday entitled Debate Day where their coward political leaders have to come out from hiding and debate the opposition.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
Problem is, when you start trying to name new holidays, by the time you can settle on a name, the sun has exploded, and the earth burned to a crisp. A lot easier to use already available days.

OK.  But do we still celebrate "Family Day" the way it was celebrated in 600AD?

Quote:
They had roots in the church, but those days are actually national days of each of the countries-or portions of countries-that make up the UK

Group hug.

Again, this isn't the rock on which I make my stand, or anything.  But what if they'd gone with holidays from the top four cultures living in Britain instead?

There would still surely be a Christian one.  But what about making Eid a national holiday?  Or Yom Kippur?  Or just something other than St. White Guy, St. White Guy, St. White Guy and St. White Guy?

Or for that matter, no religions or cultures at all.  Just arbitrary days like "Flower day", "Tree day", "Bird Day" and "Nature Day"?  Then you can put them wherever on the calendar they make sense.  If a month has no holidays, it can have "Tree Day".

 

 

St. George wasn't "a white guy".  He was born in Palestine.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

 

And evidently, Jesus was born in the Middle East somewhere, the blonde and blue-eyed son of other blue-eyed blondes.

Just curious:  what's the part of "no Xtian Saint's holidays" that you DISAGREE with?

Do you feel that this is as inclusive as it possibly could be, Ken?  Or else why are you pecking at my shins here?

I'm just saying.  Four proposed new holidays, four white guy Saints honoured.  Or, just for the sake of argument, THREE white guy Saints honoured.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

That was a depiction by a Western artist.  Not only was St. George NOT "white", he was never anywhere near England and undoubtedly never wore medieval armor, having lived a long time before that type of armor was used.   It's much more likely that St. George actually looked like THIS:

I'm not actually taking a position on this, Magoo.  I was just trying to offer a theory as to why Corbyn might have proposed it.  Frankly, this sounds like one of the discussions you start that are just about winding people up.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
I'm not actually taking a position on this, Magoo.  I was just trying to offer a theory as to why Corbyn might have proposed it.

To be honest, I'm not all that riled up over it either.  It's just that the list of proposed holidays seemed a little bit "Church of England, 19th century".  It makes the House of Lords look practially multicultural.  Maybe if just ONE of the days didn't start with "Saint"...

Quote:
Frankly, this sounds like one of the discussions you start that are just about winding people up.

I officially give everyone permission to not give a rat's ass, if they don't.

Rev Pesky

From Mr. Magoo:

OK.  But do we still celebrate "Family Day" the way it was celebrated in 600AD?

Family day is a perfect example of the problem of naming new holidays. You have to find a name that no one can argue with. Unfortuntately there is only one day that can be called Family Day. After that the search is on for some completely neutral reason to celebrate. Maybe we could have 'Congratulations Day'. After all, everyone likes congratulations, right?

Further form Magoo:

I officially give everyone permission to not give a rat's ass...

You know, you may have stumbled on a good holiday name, the 'I Don't Give A Rat's Ass Day'. After all, not giving a rat's ass is kind of a human trait. Who could argue with it.  'I do give a rat's ass normally, but not today...

​There's still the problem as to whether it should be a paid holiday or not.

 

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Don't buy the lie. To oppose the government is not sabotage – video

Paul Mason says the Daily Mail headline, calling those who oppose the government ‘saboteurs’, is sinister. He argues that this tactic is commonplace in dictatorships and autocracies, but to see it in a democracy is alarming. He says meaningful opposition to the Tories is necessary for the country and for democracy

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I think that instead of using the patron saint's name they should just use the nation. So a Welsh Day, a Scotch Day (couldn't resist), an Irish Day and an English Day. Problem solved.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

My only complaint with that idea is that I didn't think of it first.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I think that instead of using the patron saint's name they should just use the nation. So a Welsh Day, a Scotch Day (couldn't resist), an Irish Day and an English Day. Problem solved.

Please invite me up to B.C. when you throw the first Scotch Day party.

NorthReport

More signs Brexit is a disaster for the UK.

Government loses bid to supress pollution plan that could drop 'controversial bomb' on election

High Court judge says air pollution has created 'exceptional public health circumstances'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/high-court-judge-order-air...

NorthReport

What nonsense. Of course Brexit can be reversed.

Conservatives lead over Labour cut by seven points ahead of general election, latest poll shows

Poll suggests somewhat tighter race than other surveys

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/conservative-lead-labour-c...

NorthReport

Angela Merkel attacks British 'illusion' of keeping benefits of EU

German chancellor says UK cannot have same rights as member states nor negotiate trade relations before agreeing to pay its bill

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/27/angela-merkel-attacks-b...

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
What nonsense. Of course Brexit can be reversed.

You keep claiming this, and I keep asking whether the EU might have any say in the matter.

So... again... does the EU have a say in the matter, or does the UK merely need to say "Whoops!!"?

NorthReport

 

 

If Labour ran on a platform to remain in the UK and won, the rest of Europe would welcome the UK back into the Union.

-----------------------------

Nonsense. May is just looking for a scapegoat.

Theresa May accuses remaining 27 EU members of ‘lining up to oppose’ Britain over Brexit

'This election is not about who you may have voted for in the past. It is about voting in the national interest,' Prime Minister tells Labour voters

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-labour-support...

NorthReport

 

The Irish should approach the Scots and the Welsh as well, join forces, and stay in the EU. 

 In other words cut the English idiots loose.

Europe could allow a united Ireland to join EU after Brexit

Leaders expected to discuss statement at weekend summit that if the island reunifies, the north will automatically regain EU membership

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/apr/27/eu-to-debate-recognising...

NorthReport
NorthReport

Millions of poor UK households face massive cuts to their incomes under Tory benefit cuts, warn researchers

'Big benefit cuts in the pipeline will leave the lowest income groups substantially worse off'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/poor-uk-households-incomes...

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..real news video parts 1 & 2

Britain's Labour Party Leader Undermined by Labour Members of Parliament

Thomas Barlow, the Senior Editor of Real Media, analyzes the electoral panorama for the upcoming June 8 general election in Britain.

NorthReport

Theresa May's 'poisonous propaganda' about immigrants fuels violent hate crime, says Tim Farron

Exclusive: The Lib Dem leader accuses the Prime Minister of ‘feeding the lie’ that immigrants are a drain on the country

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-hate-crime-bre...

NorthReport

Immigrants, now gays, who next, eh. You and your merry band of Brexit supporters are doing one hell of a job May!

 

Tory MP to stand down after 'calling homosexuality a danger to society'

Andrew Turner made the comments on a visit to a school in his Isle of Wight constituency

 

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/andrew-turner-tory-mp-stan...

    NorthReport

    No wonder, as they should be ashamed of the Consrvative brand, but hopefully Labour does not let them get away with their deceit to the voters.

    Tory election banners in the north of England don't have 'Conservative Party' branding on them

     

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tory-election-campaign-nor...

    NorthReport

    UK was given details of alleged contacts between Trump campaign and Moscow

    In December the UK government was given reports by former MI6 officer Christopher Steele on possible collusion between Trump camp and the Kremlin

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/28/trump-russia-intelligenc...

    NorthReport

    With Theresa May the snowflake in charge, this is health and safety gone mad

    Dalek soundbites and dodging debates may secure a Tory election win, but contempt for voters could backfire in the end

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/28/theresa-may-snowfl...

    NorthReport

    Good!

     

    Remaining 27 EU countries agree Brexit guidelines as Hollande says UK must 'pay price'

    European Council President Donald Tusk has confirmed that guidelines for the bloc's negotiations with the UK have been unanimously ratified

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/remaining-27-eu-countries-...

    josh

    In the YouGov/Times poll Labour has cut the Tories' lead from 23 to 13 points in a week.  Labour now at 31, same as they got 2 years ago.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_g...

     

    Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

    That should end all the talk of replacing Corbyn.  If Labour gets a higher vote share under Corbyn than under Ed Miliband, Corbyn should be guaranteed the chance to stay on until the party conference, when the undemocratic leadership ballot rules can be changed and a fair and legitimate leadership vote can be held.

    NorthReport

    Finally coming to their senses.

    Labour's Clive Lewis calls for a second Brexit referendum

    The former shadow Defence Secretary and the current shadow Environment Secretary Rachael Maskell have published a letter calling for a second Brexit referendum, in direct contradiction with their party leader 

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labours-clive-lewis-calls-...

    NorthReport

    More lies from May. What an unmitigated disaster for the UK.  The Cons are desperate to have the election before their citizens find out the mess they are in. The UK needs to pull out of Brexit before they completely self-destruct!

    Theresa May's Brexit meeting with Jean-Claude Juncker 'deeply worrying', Labour says

    Downing Street has said it does not 'recognise' an account of the talks reported in the German press

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-brexit-meeting...

    josh

    NorthReport wrote:

    Finally coming to their senses.

    Labour's Clive Lewis calls for a second Brexit referendum

    The former shadow Defence Secretary and the current shadow Environment Secretary Rachael Maskell have published a letter calling for a second Brexit referendum, in direct contradiction with their party leader 

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labours-clive-lewis-calls-...

    So had Brexit been narrowly defeated and supporters called for another vote within a year's time, would you, and those Labour members supported a revote?

    NorthReport

    A person born on one side of a border is ok but the person born on the other side is not. I'm for getting rid of borders, not creating new ones.

    Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

    When I was a child, I thought that a legal appeal was something anyone could launch, if they were unhappy with the result of a trial.  It was only years later, in my teens, that I understood that you actually need grounds for an appeal -- incorrect instructions to a jury, or inappropriate evidence allowed, or something like that.  You can't just appeal because you want a do-over.

    Anyway, same thing.  You can't just hold a referendum a second time because you don't like the results of the first.

    kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

    Mr. Magoo wrote:

    Anyway, same thing.  You can't just hold a referendum a second time because you don't like the results of the first.

    Wow what a bizarre statment from a Canadian.  We've had two referendums on separation and who knows we may face more in the future. I guess its like a dentist it may bother you but sometimes you have to keep going back to try and cure the same ache.

    Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

    Fair enough.  Let the UK schedule a second referendum for 15 years from now.

    But I'm not sure Canadians would have had a lot of patience for a Sovereignty referendum in 1980, and then another one a few months later in 1980.  And if we did have a third one tomorrow, it would be 22 years after the last one, with a whole different electorate -- people would be voting who weren't even alive for the last one.

    kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

    The PQ watched the polls for signs of success. If they had thought they could win in 1982 they would have held another one then. The EU supporters think they can win so I can see why they want a do over more than the PQ did.

    Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

    I think it's human nature for them to want a do-over.  Nothing wrong with that.  The question is whether everyone else should go along with it, and why an immediate second referendum should have any validity if, by definition, the first didn't.

    And there's also the obvious question:  if they held a second referendum, and this time "Remain" won, would there be a tie-breaker?  At that point, surely the "Leave" contingent would also want a do-over, yes?  And on what grounds would anyone deny that?

    NorthReport

     

    The Brexit Grandstanding Works in the EU's Favor

     

    Merkel, for her part, has an election coming up in September, and she has no reason to look soft at the outset of the Brexit talks, especially as her strongest opponent, Martin Schulz, is fiercely pro-European and would hammer her on that. Merkel -- apparently after Juncker called in frustration -- made it clear in a speech to the German parliament on April 29 that, like Juncker, she considered the British side deluded. She also ran through the entire Juncker agenda: No simultaneous talks about exit terms and a future trade deal; strong protections for EU citizens in the U.K., including 100,000 Germans; as little financial damage as possible to the EU. Unity appears to be ensured on the initial position: Merkel's bullet points are the basis for the negotiating guidelines on which the 27 EU leaders signed off on Saturday. As is usual with the EU, the guidelines don't include some of the tough demands from a draft that had been leaked earlier, for example, the specific demand that all EU immigrants already in the U.K. and their entire families, including future spouses, keep their current rights. But that doesn't mean the matter won't be raised during the talks: The EU is in no hurry to conclude them since every extra week of British agony is a deterrent to other potential "exiters."

    While both May and Merkel benefit domestically from taking a tough stance, the EU negotiators, too, love the escalation because they know that May can only be bluffing. There is, for example, no reason for her to know about the European Medicines Agency's 500 million euro ($545 million) unbreakable, 25-year lease in Canary Wharf. Since the EU didn't initiate Brexit, it doesn't want to pay to break it off and move the EMA elsewhere -- even if the lease wasn't a smart idea in the first place. Nor does May necessarily know exactly what rights and social protections Brits enjoy in other EU countries, which makes it difficult for her to negotiate a reciprocal deal for British emigres and immigrants. Juncker and his team, free of responsibility for running any single country, deal with these cross-border housekeeping matters on a daily basis. They also know how detailed trade talks can get: They've hammered out quite a number of them, something the U.K. hasn't had to do since it's been a EU member.

    May, of course, could find the expertise among U.K. officials with EU experience -- but, well before Brexit, the British presence in EU institutions was gradually waning. As far back as 2013, the U.K. parliament's Foreign Affairs Committee was complaining that not enough Brits were taking EU employment tests to compensate for retiring staffers. The U.K. has long treated the EU as a nuisance and worked harder on opt-outs than on trying to learn its ropes. Now, it doesn't quite understand what the EU wants and why its wants it.

    In other words, stepped-up, prolonged theatrics are in Juncker's interest because he knows that when the parties get down to business, there will be less time left and his team will have a better grip on the issues, down to the minutest detail. That's how one gets the best deal -- or gets the other party to walk away in a huff, something that would suit the EU negotiators fine: Time is on their side.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-05-01/the-brexit-grandstand...

    NorthReport

     

    Say it isn't so May. Yikes!

    Brexit: UK must abandon 'fairy tale' ideas, says Germany's Europe minister

    Michael Roth joins a number of German polticians in criticising the UK's approach to leaving the EU

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-fairy-tale-ideas...

    Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

    All three of those look like links, but only one is.  Is it some kind of upgrade thing?

    cco

    Mr. Magoo wrote:

    I think it's human nature for them to want a do-over.  Nothing wrong with that.  The question is whether everyone else should go along with it, and why an immediate second referendum should have any validity if, by definition, the first didn't.

    Both Québec referenda were held after PQ governments came to power in general elections where they campaigned on holding one (much like the Brexit referendum). I'd say, therefore, that if Labour or the LibDems won this election on the platform of holding a new referendum, they'd have the legitimacy to do so. Ireland repeating its EU constitutional referenda without intervening parliamentary elections, by contrast, was on far shakier ground.

    Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

    Quote:
    Both Québec referenda were held after PQ governments came to power in general elections where they campaigned on holding one (much like the Brexit referendum).

    In both cases I wonder how it's somehow more legitimate to hold a do-over just some party campaigned on the promise to hold a do-over.

    If we want to go down that road then no party, in any country, can ever form government because someone whose party didn't win can always demand a "do-over", or as many "do-overs" as necessary until they miraculously emerge victorious (at which point the "do-overs" shall cease).

    kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

    Mr. Magoo wrote:

    If we want to go down that road then no party, in any country, can ever form government because someone whose party didn't win can always demand a "do-over", or as many "do-overs" as necessary until they miraculously emerge victorious (at which point the "do-overs" shall cease).

    Now that is one hell of a slippery slope argument. Did you feed it steroids?

    Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

    No, not really.  I just asked myself "if this becomes the norm, might there ever be other politicians or parties who might similarly feel like 'a terrible mistake has been made' when others didn't vote for what they wanted, and might those people also expect the same right to a re-do?"

    Seriously, the UK held a vote and they voted to leave.  It's done, for now at least.

    Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

    Mr. Magoo wrote:

    No, not really.  I just asked myself "if this becomes the norm, might there ever be other politicians or parties who might similarly feel like 'a terrible mistake has been made' when others didn't vote for what they wanted, and might those people also expect the same right to a re-do?"

    Seriously, the UK held a vote and they voted to leave.  It's done, for now at least.

    The dilemma being, though, that a lot of people who voted "Leave" now seem to feel they were duped(for what it's worth, If I was advising Jeremy Corbyn, at this stage I think I would have him call for a second referendum or, at a minimum, ,the toughest possible stance on achieving a soft Brexit), so there is a legitimate case for annulling the initiative results on the grounds that they were achieved on false pretense.

    And there is the precedent that several countries in Europe has second referendums on entering the EU after the first referendum ended in a "NO" vote.

     

     

     

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