Even the bourgeois press is taking notice. The Conservatives have moved heaven and earth to silence this witness ... without success.
Canada complicit in torture of innocent Afghans, diplomat says (Globe and Mail)
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On 570 News
http://www.570news.com/news/national/more.jsp?content=n175675330
Canadian diplomats ordered to hold back information on Afghan prison torture: sources
November, 17, 2009 - 08:14 pm Brewster, Murray - (THE CANADIAN PRESS)
OTTAWA - Canadian diplomats in Afghanistan were ordered in 2007 to hold back information in their reports to Ottawa about the handling of the prisoners, say defence and foreign affairs sources.
The instruction - issued soon after allegations of torture by Afghan authorities began appearing in public - was aimed at defusing the explosive human-rights controversy, said sources who spoke on the condition of anonymity.
There was a fear that graphic reports, even in censored form, could be uncovered by opposition parties and the media through access-to-information laws, leading to revelations that would further erode already-tenuous public support.
The controversy was seen as "detracting from the narrative" the Harper government was trying to weave around the mission, said one official.
"It was meant to put on happy face," he added.
What is fascinating is the Canadian Ambassador in Kabul at the time is now in China and he was outted as a "turn a blind eye" participant. I can just imagine how China will receive any holier than though "rights" talk from Harpo when he arrives on his latest political junket.
This report implies that our PMO is complaisant in war crimes and if true it is a very very serious accusation that the NDP and Bloc need to not allow to disappear.
A high level civil servant [Colvin] raises an alert about prisoners of Canadian troops in Afghanistan being tortured after they are turned over to Afghan officials, and nothing is done.
Peter MacKay says it wasn't a credible alert, and that is why they didn't look into it. However, any alert from a respected civil servant should be taken seriously, especially where there might be torture occuring.
MacKay's stated defence for inaction has very little credibility.
Appearing before a House of Commons committee Wednesday, Richard Colvin blasted the detainees policies of Canada and compared them with the policies of the British and the Netherlands.
The detainees were captured by Canadian soldiers then handed over to the Afghan intelligence service, called the NDS.
Colvin said Canada was taking six times as many detainees as British troops and 20 times as many as the Dutch.
He said unlike the British and Dutch, Canada did not monitor their conditions; took days, weeks or months to notify the Red Cross; kept poor records; and to prevent scrutiny, the Canadian Forces leadership concealed this behind "walls of secrecy."
"As I learned more about our detainee practices, I came to a conclusion they were contrary to Canada's values, contrary to Canada's interests, contrary to Canada's official policies and also contrary to international law.
That is, they were un-Canadian, counterproductive and probably illegal.
There should be calls to action going out about this to MP's......as a bolster to this:
The revelations came when senior diplomat Richard Colvin testified before a House of Commons committee Wednesday that abuse of prisoners was the "standard operating procedure" of local authorities that top Canadian bureaucrats and military officials turned a blind eye for more than a year beginning in 2006 while he tried to bring his troubling findings to the attention of his superiors.
"Rather than investigate allegations in full, the Conservative government has only attacked his credibility. It's outrageous that the government would question his judgement," said NDP foreign affairs critic Paul Dewar.
"The only way to get to the bottom of this is a full public inquiry. The women and the men of the Canadian Forces deserve nothing less."
List of MP's with email addresses
I am charmed by the way the MSM, pretends they haven't heard the detainee torture story before and that this is "news".
I am charmed by the way the MSM, pretends they haven't heard the detainee torture story before and that this is "news".
That's good! Keep this story fresh in the minds of Canadians. Hopefully this will turn enough Canadian voters in the next federal election so that the Cons[ervatives] will be voted out of office!
CBC last night did not do this, Susan O, stated straight out that when rumblings of this were happening the Cons started to change actions, which indicates full well they knew what was happening, and indeed her and Peter stressed that the proof went well beyond the plausible denial meme. hey showed dlips of Sue's coverage about it back in the day....
The At Issue panel discussed this last night too, and Coyne was trying to share the blame with the Liberals, which really does not fully wash in my view as detainees and detainee transfers went way up under Harper's regime.
Also covered was Ignatieff's inability to carry this into the public light given his approval of toruture in his book.
Gulbuddin Heymatyar was infamous for throwing acid in the faces of women at the University of Kabul! He was the recipient of billions in aid from the CIA and Saudis in the 1980's during their anticommunist jihad!
And now Pete Mackay's bosses in Warshington and London are offering Hekmatyar a power sharing role in Karzai's government!
Someone should tell Pete Mackay that his imperialist masters aided and abetted the throwing of acid in women's faces not so long ago.
I am charmed by the way the MSM, pretends they haven't heard the detainee torture story before and that this is "news".
That's good! Keep this story fresh in the minds of Canadians. Hopefully this will turn enough Canadian voters in the next federal election so that the Cons[ervatives] will be voted out of office!
This morning The Current interviewed Peter Desbarats, former commissioner of the Somalia Inquiry. His opinion was that Canadians didn't seem particularly interested, much less out-raged about that incident. And he wasn't confident we would be about this one. And if we aren't, no loss for the Conservatives.
"We have seen the enemy - and it is us"? Pogo, I think.
Gulbuddin Heymatyar was infamous for throwing acid in the faces of women at the University of Kabul! He was the recipient of billions in aid from the CIA and Saudis in the 1980's during their anticommunist jihad!
And now Pete Mackay's bosses in Warshington and London are offering Hekmatyar a power sharing role in Karzai's government!
Someone should tell Pete Mackay that his imperialist masters aided and abetted the throwing of acid in women's faces not so long ago.
Not only that, but Peter MacKay makes the assumption that these prisoners were "Taliban". An assumption that has yet to be proven.
Gulbuddin Hekmatyar does not belong to a member organization of the Taliban. He is the commander of an insurgent group known as the Hezb-i-Islami Gulbuddin or the HIG Hekmatyar network. Hekmatyar and and his network usually operates on its own. Hekmatyar and his HIG network usually operates in northeast Afghanistan, not Kandahar province, south Afghanistan.
Chris Arsenault interviewed Malalai Joya recently:
Malalai Joya: People know very well. Many others, including Dr. Abdullah Abdullah, who ran for president in the election, their bums are on the lap of the CIA. Gulbuddin Hekmatyar [another warlord] is said to be using his old CIA-generated [drug] trafficking network to fund the current insurgency.
If [Canadian Prime Minister Stephen] Harper is honest, why is he silent in supporting this mafia system? These people are criminals; but with suits and ties they are in power.
If this [CIA funding war-lords] isn't bad enough, [President Karzai] appointed Izzatullah Wasifi as Afghanistan's anti-corruption chief [in 2007]. Wasifi is a convicted drug trafficker who spent almost four years in Nevada state prison for selling heroin, but he was an old friend of the Karzai family. As Afghans often say, "Karzai assigned a rabbit to take care of the carrot."
The CIA is still funding warlords. Karzai's brother is a drug baron on the CIA's payroll, just as the CIA were funding drug barons and the most vicious of warlords and mercenaries in the 1980's. Gulbby, their coalition partner in crime in waiting, is still dealing drugs after all these years. What a mess. After 30 years of US meddling in Afghanistan, nothing has changed for ordinary Afghans living in grinding poverty and despair.
Many detainees were just local farmers
In fact, Amrullah Saleh, chief of Afghanistan's National Directorate of Security, told Canadians most prisoners were later released – meaning they weren't likely high-value captures, according to the memo.
Mr. Saleh told Canadians that rank-and-file soldiers weren't very good at identifying the bad guys when rounding up suspects. “He suggested that, in general, conventional forces are not necessarily the best instrument for identifying high-value combatants … most of those detained by Canadian forces, he guessed, would subsequently have been released,” Mr. Colvin wrote in a memo.
Overall, though, I'm guessing that the locals are overwhelmingly grateful to their Canadian saviours for building schools etc.
edit
Sure it is. US-managed election results in Afghanada reveal as much. Democracy is the right's most hated institution and always will be.
The U.S. offers bounties to those who bring in "Al-Qaeda" and "Taliban" "terrorists". Anyone wanting to make a quick buck can either make a "citizen's arrest" or "finger" (along with two, or more, others who bear false witness) a totally innocent person to U.S. or Canadian or other NATO/ISAF troops (think Afghans can tell them apart, or care? They're all hated feringhees or foreigners or "Americans" to them.) Off to Bagram prison for them.
Anyone seen "Taxi to the Dark Side"?
The following Globe and Mail article paints a picture that the political storm that is about to break with extreme violence in Ottawa is only just brewing:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/tories-work-to-undermine-di...
Where's the petition to see charges laid against Hillier, Harper and MacKay? I want to sign.
Anyone remember the Euro classic movies "Battle of Algiers" and "Z"?
Overall, though, I'm guessing that the locals are overwhelmingly grateful to their Canadian saviours for building schools etc.
Unionist, is this an ironic comment?
Yes.
A high level civil servant [Colvin] raises an alert about prisoners of Canadian troops in Afghanistan being tortured after they are turned over to Afghan officials, and nothing is done.
Peter MacKay says it wasn't a credible alert, and that is why they didn't look into it. However, any alert from a respected civil servant should be taken seriously, especially where there might be torture occuring.
MacKay's stated defence for inaction has very little credibility.
But it does have a lot of upchuckability.
The U.S. offers bounties to those who bring in "Al-Qaeda" and "Taliban" "terrorists". Anyone wanting to make a quick buck can either make a "citizen's arrest" or "finger" (along with two, or more, others who bear false witness) a totally innocent person to U.S. or Canadian or other NATO/ISAF troops (think Afghans can tell them apart, or care? They're all hated feringhees or foreigners or "Americans" to them.) Off to Bagram prison for them.
Anyone seen "Taxi to the Dark Side"?
In Afghan tribal culture, revenge doesn't always involve direct violence. Many of the innocent victims of false terrorism charges are simply fingered due to domestic or financial disputes.
Another example of culturally insensitive American expediency being utilised by Afghans to settle scores. As in Iraq, American policies have turned the population against them. The sad part is that Canada's feeble aid efforts are marginalised by a tribal culture that does not differentiate between occupying nationalities - they are all enemies.
Ah, tribal culture - so that's why those Afghans aren't thanking us...
Where's the petition to see charges laid against Hillier, Harper and MacKay? I want to sign.
Why stop there? The whole pack of 'I didn't see that email' jowly porkers in expensive suits should walk the plank.
On 570 News
http://www.570news.com/news/national/more.jsp?content=n175675330
Canadian diplomats ordered to hold back information on Afghan prison torture: sources
November, 17, 2009 - 08:14 pm Brewster, Murray - (THE CANADIAN PRESS)
OTTAWA - Canadian diplomats in Afghanistan were ordered in 2007 to hold back information in their reports to Ottawa about the handling of the prisoners, say defence and foreign affairs sources.
The instruction - issued soon after allegations of torture by Afghan authorities began appearing in public - was aimed at defusing the explosive human-rights controversy, said sources who spoke on the condition of anonymity.
There was a fear that graphic reports, even in censored form, could be uncovered by opposition parties and the media through access-to-information laws, leading to revelations that would further erode already-tenuous public support.
The controversy was seen as "detracting from the narrative" the Harper government was trying to weave around the mission, said one official.
"It was meant to put on happy face," he added.
To get a fair-use copy go to
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tiganatoo/4119618580/
What is the symbolism of the dude in the hoody?
Where's the petition to see charges laid against Hillier, Harper and MacKay? I want to sign.
In his book, (just out) A Soldier First: Bullets, Breaucrats and the Politics of War, tricky Rick attempts to cover his ass on the earlier controversy, and plows on in singularly insensitive fashion:
"Things had changed after spring 2006, however, when we moved south of Kandahar and our soldiers would often take prisoners after firefights with Taliban or in other operations...the decision was made...that the right thing to do was transfer prisoners to the Afghans and let the Afghan judicial system, fledgling though it may have been, handle them. After all, Afghanistan is a sovereign country and, almost without exception, it was Afghans that we were detaining."
Hillier writes - in classic Blimp fashion: "We thought we had a good process in place, although obviously it was not perfect. Eventually - no surprise - people back in Canada started squawking about the issue. Opposition politicians and several specific individuals were trying to spin the story for their own purposes, and the result was that screaming newspaper headline insinuating that Canadian soldiers were abusing detainees."
He continues: "This suggestion that Canadian soldiers were not abiding by the laws of war coincided with complaints that the Afghans were abusing some of those handed to them. Their judicial and prison systems were still somewhat nascent, and there was always some risk that abuse would occur. That, unfortunately, is not abnormal in failed states and occurs even in solid countries like Canada. After indications that some abuse might have occurred (ed. the Globe pointed out that it had) the CF felt it was a necessity to have Candian officials make regular, unannounced visits to Afghan prison to ensure the people we transferred were being treated humanely. "
He plows on, about the Manley Report of January 2008 and the "improvements in prison infrastructure and Afghan police training..." But, of course, the general's concerns came late, after admitting that, yes, shit happens. Which makes the sounds from the government benches these days, expressions of pure flatulence.
What is the symbolism of the dude in the hoody?
Ever hear of Abu Ghraib?
Ah, tribal culture - so that's why those Afghans aren't thanking us...
Whassamadda? Fish not biting? You run out of friends to chat with in your 'the Afghan people will win' fantasy world?
What is the symbolism of the dude in the hoody?
Ever hear of Abu Ghraib?
You're pushing it.
How about some substantive comments instead of this trash.
You're pushing it.
How about some substantive comments instead of this trash.
He's an Islamophobic troll, not worth responding to - I forgot for a moment, and I apologize for commenting on one of his posts.
This person has caused a lot of Canada's problems in recent times, and he needs to be taken down a notch or three.
Hillier as Chief of the Defence StaffOn February 4 2005, he became Chief of the Defence Staff. At the change-of-command ceremony he repeated his call, more broadly, for increased military funding. "In this country, we could probably not give enough resources to the men and women to do all the things that we ask them to do," he said, with Prime Minister Paul Martin and Defence Minister Bill Graham looking on. "But we can give them too little, and that is what we are now doing. Remember them in your budgets."[5] His willingness to speak openly and on the record about the Canadian Forces' financial resources, and about the Defence budget in particular, distinguishes Hillier from previous Chiefs of the Defence Staff.[citation needed]
After his appointment, Hillier maintained a very high profile, frequently talking with the media and arguing his case for defence planning. He has been called the most prominent Chief of the Defence Staff in decades, with popularity not just in the military, but among a broad spectrum of Canadian civilians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Hillier
You're pushing it.
How about some substantive comments instead of this trash.
[/quote
]Frmrsldr wrote:
The U.S. offers bounties to those who bring in "Al-Qaeda" and "Taliban" "terrorists". Anyone wanting to make a quick buck can either make a "citizen's arrest" or "finger" (along with two, or more, others who bear false witness) a totally innocent person to U.S. or Canadian or other NATO/ISAF troops (think Afghans can tell them apart, or care? They're all hated feringhees or foreigners or "Americans" to them.) Off to Bagram prison for them.
Anyone seen "Taxi to the Dark Side"?
Another example of culturally insensitive American expediency being utilised by Afghans to settle scores. As in Iraq, American policies have turned the population against them. The sad part is that Canada's feeble aid efforts are marginalised by a tribal culture that does not differentiate between occupying nationalities - they are all enemies.
In case you miss the serious bits. Serious responses for serious issues.
What is it that raises your ire? Not rising to the bait of provocations or having the temerity to make light of them?Anyone remember the Euro classic movies "Battle of Algiers" and "Z"?
Absolutely - I even watched Battle of Algiers very recently for the first time in decades - would love to see Z again, it had a major influence on my world view at the time. You're quite right, today's events are a case of nature imitating art. Nothing much has changed.
You're pushing it.
How about some substantive comments instead of this trash.
He's an Islamophobic troll, not worth responding to - I forgot for a moment, and I apologize for commenting on one of his posts.
When was the trial? Or, in your world, is a trial is an unnecessary nuisance when it conflicts with your agenda?
I thought labeling was contrary to babble policy, or is that policy also only reserved for those who do not drink from your poisoned chalice?
The intent to paint me an "Islamophobic troll" contrary to any evidence or even the courtesy of asking my position is simply a disingenuous attempt to frame my stance on issues in an unfavourable light that, if repeated often enough, will have me banned.
Your alarcity, unionist, to use foul play to furthur your biases stand in stark contrast with your perpetual claim to all the moral high ground. Your reach exceeds your grasp and, it does you no justice.
Canuquetoo get off your high horse. While I wouldn't necessarily characterize you as "Islamiphobe", at least based on this thread, your remarks about "Afghan tribal culture" reek of white western privlige and superiority. Stop it. If you don't like unionists posts don't read them.
The image that you refer to as "the dude in the hoody" has become a symbol for the issue of torture by western forces in Iraq. I'm a bit shocked anyone would not be familiar with it.
Google Abu Ghraib and just look at images. A picture is worth a thousand words. See what's been done in our name. Tribalism indeed.
I would hope that folks are not shooting from the hip here. The misuse of one word should not bring out the politically correct lynch mob. It has happened before, with tragic results.
Lies based on lies based on lies. The entire setup often looks so utterly corrupted that the nazipoohs can race around knocking over fax like they was bowling pins (and the nazipoohs themselves bowlingballs) w/out worrying what the OPPOSITION says- and get this: the media is liberal, so whattaya expect? Meanwhile, on cbc's 'Ideas' the other evening Paul Kennedy was talking with some phony liberal frontman named 'Wolf' who is selling a doorstopper ('the case for liberalism'?) and ...well, didya know the junyer Kristol is a 'romantic' for thinking western democracy/freedom can be transplanted to Iraq/Afghanistan etc via shock'n'awe warfare? And the geebush admin was the most 'conservative' in US history? And liberal ignatief knows that terrorism has got to be fought, which hamstrings his criticisms (and nevermind that the US, Britain and Israel- along with their puppet states re saudia arabia- spend two thirds of entire global military budget, whilst 'alciada' doesn't even have a state base to operate in)... How do you fight such seamless dishonesty? It's a plain fact they say, that the 'war' in Afghanistan has been going on for 'generations' according to the talkers on 'Sunday Edition' (actually, Afghanistan was easily one of freest places on earth up until late 70's-there was a huge 'hippie' colony there of western expats- and that was while it was considered under the Soviet umbrella...the carter cia then began funding the 'muhajadeen'in order to ruin the USSR, which the MSM has been celebrating recently, as if nobody recalls the real history)
If the liars weren't so untterly despicable, there'd be no inspiration to carry on, imho. The people really seem bovine indifferent, or overwhelmed.
LTJ -
I couldn't find a petition to charge HarperCo with war crimes yet.
Would you consider writing one for us?
http://www.gopetition.com/howtostartapetition.php
David Swanson at AfterDowningStreet has done some great work on justice.
Update: He's pretty busy but says he is pleased we are working on this and invites us to go to this link
http://davidswanson.org/lists
We should start a separate thread to list the official and unoffial lies
THREE COLOSSAL LIES TOLD TO CANADIANS AS TO WHY CANADIAN TROOPS ARE IN AFGHANISTAN
1. Canadian military is there in Afghanistan because Afghans and Iraqis planned and executed 9/11. (It was actually planned and carried out on US soil by the US military, CIA, and their "al-CIA'duh" pals )
2. We're there to liberate women
3. We're there to stem the evil tide of terrorism.(Our largest trading partners are the world's foremost exporter of terrorism and torture)
This is not who we are. I hope HarperCo has not ripped the heart right out of the country.
Sure puts Harper's "Defense" budget in a different light.
War crimes charges? An election? It's the perfect time to kick the blighters out.
UNICEF Smurf anti-war video is here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MAYrF1PDks
And Jason Kenney wants new immigrants to learn about the Canadian Military:
http://www.610cktb.com/news/14/1020199
I'd like Kenney to learn something from the military too - the 5BX.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5BX
You're pushing it.
How about some substantive comments instead of this trash.
He's an Islamophobic troll, not worth responding to - I forgot for a moment, and I apologize for commenting on one of his posts.
When was the trial? Or, in your world, is a trial is an unnecessary nuisance when it conflicts with your agenda?
I thought labeling was contrary to babble policy, or is that policy also only reserved for those who do not drink from your poisoned chalice?
The intent to paint me an "Islamophobic troll" contrary to any evidence or even the courtesy of asking my position is simply a disingenuous attempt to frame my stance on issues in an unfavourable light that, if repeated often enough, will have me banned.
Your alarcity, unionist, to use foul play to furthur your biases stand in stark contrast with your perpetual claim to all the moral high ground. Your reach exceeds your grasp and, it does you no justice.
Hey, Canuqetoo, this is just par for Babble. Trolls and trash if you're not one of "them" and like unionist said - "not worth responding to". Don't know what's wrong with calling a tribe a tribe.
Hey, Canuqetoo, this is just par for Babble. Trolls and trash if you're not one of "them" and like unionist said - "not worth responding to". Don't know what's wrong with calling a tribe a tribe.
You don't like my comment - so you attack babble? And you "don't know what's wrong with calling a tribe a tribe"? Which tribe is that? Which tribe, kathleen? Which tribe was your buddy referring to? Did you catch the name? Or since they're Afghans, you and your buddy can just assume they're part of some "tribe" which doesn't allow them to appreciate Canadian largesse?
It's racism, western supremacism, xenophobia, and Islamophobia. We are all prone to it, because we are raised to be so superior to third world people (including the indigenous people right here) that we can even justify sending troops with guns to murder them, without having received an invitation, and think that we're doing something good. You may not like the terminology, but it's better to call this behaviour what it is, than to succumb to it - don't you think? And if you don't know what's wrong with it, then I feel sorry for you.
What is the symbolism of the dude in the hoody?
Torture and abuse of prisoners by Americans at Abu Ghraib, Iraq. Remember Pvt. Lindy England? If not, watch the DVD "Taxi to the Dark Side", if you have the opportunity.
What is the symbolism of the dude in the hoody?
Torture and abuse of prisoners by Americans at Abu Ghraib, Iraq. Remember Pvt. Lindy England? If not, watch the DVD "Taxi to the Dark Side", if you have the opportunity.
Does anyone really think this latest 'scandal' will cause any self examination whatsoever within any political party? Yes it's once again temporary news and political vendors will be selling quotes of outrage. So get your quotes while their hot because when the next election comes there will only be tumbleweeds rolling across the foreign policy landscape. And I most certainly include my own party.
Canuquetoo get off your high horse. While I wouldn't necessarily characterize you as "Islamiphobe", at least based on this thread, your remarks about "Afghan tribal culture" reek of white western privlige and superiority. Stop it. If you don't like unionists posts don't read them.
Sure, I'll get off my high horse, at least its not a pompous jackass I'm riding. I'm no Islamophobe at all, differentiating between all religions and the use of religion to furthur political goals through violence, INCLUDING THE USE OF CHRISTIANITY TO FOMENT DISTRUST OF ISLAM [ sorry, but i need to shout that part].The unseemly haste with which violence is embraced in the name of religion cannot be laid at the feet of religion itself but it can be laid at the feet of those who espouse violence to furthur secular goals.
My remarks about "Afghan tribal culture" are presented in the context of the full force of western imperialism attempting to impose a central government upon distinct tribal cultures that have their own dispute mechanisms based upon jirgas and sharia law. As far as "reeking of white western privilege and superiority" is concerned, its bs. Far from feeling privileged and superior, I admire and respect the common sense dispute resolutions and the tenacity with which these peoples defend their interests. Perhaps you can enlighten me as to the politically correct non-reeking terminology
The image that you refer to as "the dude in the hoody" has become a symbol for the issue of torture by western forces in Iraq. I'm a bit shocked anyone would not be familiar with it.
Well, I'm not familiar with it, that why I asked. I thought it striking but not definative. No disrespect intended -I figured it simply someone's artwork.
Google Abu Ghraib and just look at images. A picture is worth a thousand words. See what's been done in our name. Tribalism indeed.
I know about Abu Ghraib just not the connection to the graphic. Done in our name? Not in mine - I'm not taking any ownership of American war crimes - although I may have to take ownership of Canadian ones if the truth can ever be forced from the lying bastards.
Thanks for the lecture. I'm an ordinary progressive Canadian, not a PhD of political correctness.
People get excited here, canuquetoo, and forget others would like to join in without fear. My use of "tribal" (once) has led me to shun the word hereabouts - even though it was used in the most innocuous fashion. It is too bad, since it's very difficult to discuss some events without its use. But those events are never discussed, because the politically correct will not let one get farther than our imperial past. We are bound to wear that damned bird around our necks forever, and never come to grips with the new reality of the new "imperialisms" on the rise. We created them, you see, and now have to do penance (well, not we, but our forbears) and never ever forget.
By the way, I hear over CBC radio that now Walt Natynczyk has weighed in saying that yep, Canadian Forces have had to from time to time stop handing over prisoners. (That's all I caught).
I am charmed by the way the MSM, pretends they haven't heard the detainee torture story before and that this is "news".
That's good! Keep this story fresh in the minds of Canadians. Hopefully this will turn enough Canadian voters in the next federal election so that the Cons[ervatives] will be voted out of office!
This morning The Current interviewed Peter Desbarats, former commissioner of the Somalia Inquiry. His opinion was that Canadians didn't seem particularly interested, much less out-raged about that incident. And he wasn't confident we would be about this one. And if we aren't, no loss for the Conservatives.
"We have seen the enemy - and it is us"? Pogo, I think.
I agree, I think this issue will get no real traction.
People get excited here, canuquetoo, and forget others would like to join in without fear. My use of "tribal" (once) has led me to shun the word hereabouts - even though it was used in the most innocuous fashion. It is too bad, since it's very difficult to discuss some events without its use. But those events are never discussed, because the politically correct will not let one get farther than our imperial past. We are bound to wear that damned bird around our necks forever, and never come to grips with the new reality of the new "imperialisms" on the rise. We created them, you see, and now have to do penance (well, not we, but our forbears) and never ever forget.
I can only paraphrase Orwell: 'all pigs are equal but some pigs are more equal than others' when I ponder babble policy de jure and babble policy de facto.
While lurking, I thought babble was an interesting place for an inquiring mind but after dealing with unionist's relentless non-sequitur that disagreeing with his position equals disagreeing with the anti-war movement and experiencing oldgoat's dedication to inclusiveness and diversity, the potential here for open discussion seems limited.
After spending good money on Pervez Musharraf's self-serving autobiography, I wouldn't waste the breath needed to stand at the till to purchase Hillier's drivel. I did, however, get good value for the amount spent to purchase Sarah Chayes' excellent work: The Punishment of Virtue which goes into some detail about the tribal culture of southern Afghanistan and the intricacies of inter-tribal relations. This, plus reading South Asian papers online, is the basis for my arguments that American policy is counterproductive and harming efforts to form a central government because Afghans have tribal based cultures that do not lend themselves to centralised control.
This umbrage at the usage of "tribal" is a strawman to use as another club against any poster with the temerity to challenge the ideology of the more extreme element of babble.
For the moderators, de facto enforcement of policy is more the convenience of moving the saltbowl to regulate those who sit below the salt (with apologies to Thomas B. Costain) than principled enforcement of policy de jure.
The problem was not the use of the word "tribal", but the imperialist racist arrogance of denigrating Afghans, and this is the "sad part", of being too backward in their culture to distinguish between Nice White Western Invaders (Canadians and their aid efforts) and the Bad Guys. They're not advanced enough to see that We Are Their Friends.
But I didn't realize that that information came from a book, so I retract my umbrage.
Thanks for a simple answer to a simple question. I am well aware of Abu Ghraib but not the symbolism.
When news of the torture broke, it was the result of the release of the Abu Ghraib torture photos, the hooded man being one of them. Photos and motion picture images were taken by U.S. Army prison guards with their cell phones and camcorders. Some of the torture was extracurricular activity that the soldiers did for their "amusement". Behavior that was endorsed by then U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld in his infamous "Torture Memo".
Concerning this particular photograph, the hood was used as a blindfold - part of sensory deprivation. The man could have been exposed to loud heavy metal music or the drone of the fans that made the prison cells uncomfortably cold (many were in fact, subjected to this). Temperature was varied from uncomfortably cold to uncomfortably warm.
This particular man was forced to stand on a box with his arms outstretched in the manner as you can see by the image, for hours. This is called a "stress position". Wires were placed on his fingers of both hands. I believe a wire was also placed around his penis. He was ordered to maintain this position. He was also told (in this particular case actually not true) that if he changed his position, the movement would be sensed by the wires and that he would be shocked by jolts of electricity.
This and in other sickening ways, is how amateur "prison guards" at Abu Ghraib, Iraq and Bagram, Afghanistan prisons (keep in mind, before the treaty Gen. Rick Hillier signed with the Karzai government concerning the handing of PoWs to Afghan authorities, the Canadian military handed Afghan PoWs to the U.S. Like the U.S., the Canadian military took a dragnet approach and captured large numbers of prisoners - all to please the Bush administration and the Pentagon) amused themselves.
All in the name of fighting the" War on of Terror".
By the way, I hear over CBC radio that now Walt Natynczyk has weighed in saying that yep, Canadian Forces have had to from time to time stop handing over prisoners. (That's all I caught).
Of all the military persons I've heard on this subject, only former Gen. Rick Hillier supports the government and attempts to discredit Richard Colvin. All the others support Mr. Colvin.
I fear Hillier may be harboring future political aspirations. He only seems to be concerned about his own worthless hide and is not too concerned about the image of the Canadian military that only just recently he was the head of.
Gar Pardy, retired ambassador and Director General of Consular Services, was interviewed on The National this evening. Here's what he said about Peter MacKay's assault on Richard Colvin:
Asked about culpability on the part of those who handed over detainees, or knew of the risk of torture and did nothing:
These are from my notes. You can watch the broadcast here - the Colvin affair is the first item, starting with Natynczyk's comments.
PMO Issued Instructions on Denying Abuse in 07: Former NATO official says response to reports was 'scripted' in Ottawa
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/afghanmission/article/729157--pmo-iss...
"Prime Minister Stephen Harper's office used a "6000 mile screwdriver" to oversee the denial of reports of Afghan detainee abuse when the scandal first erupted in 2007, according to a former senior NATO public affairs official who was then based in Kabul.
Only the Losers Need to Fear War Crime Laws:
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/afghanmission/article/728888
"In its handling of Afghan prisoners, the Canadian government appears to have committed two types of offences. The first and most serious - crimes against humanity - will almost certainly not result in any sanction.."
It's Not Somalia But It's the Same in Many Ways
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/afghanmission/article/728959--travers...
[Like the NDP, Hillier an Obama Fan]: One Year to Turn Afghanistan Around:
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/afghanmission/article/729049--one-yea...
Looks like it's going to be a bad week for politicians
Leaked documents reveal No 10 cover-up over Iraq invasion
• Inquiry to hear how Blair hid true intentions for war
• Military 'ill-prepared' for aftermath of invasion
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/nov/22/iraq-invasion-no10-cover-...
And another bad week, to add to a series of bad weeks, and months, and years, coming up for the Liberals as well.
Human rights mess goes beyond Tories
Conservatives did not initiate the culture of casual indifference to Canada's legal humanitarian obligations that has surfaced periodically in the national capital over the past decade, although they did reinforce it.
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/afghanmission/article/729401--h-eacut...
Did Hillier's "murderers and scumbags" comment encourage Canadian arrests of innocent Afghanis who were tortured?
Journalist Bruce Wark reports:
http://bit.ly/73CD5k
Hey, Canuqetoo, this is just par for Babble. Trolls and trash if you're not one of "them" and like unionist said - "not worth responding to". Don't know what's wrong with calling a tribe a tribe.
You don't like my comment - so you attack babble? And you "don't know what's wrong with calling a tribe a tribe"? Which tribe is that? Which tribe, kathleen? Which tribe was your buddy referring to? Did you catch the name? Or since they're Afghans, you and your buddy can just assume they're part of some "tribe" which doesn't allow them to appreciate Canadian largesse?
It's racism, western supremacism, xenophobia, and Islamophobia. We are all prone to it, because we are raised to be so superior to third world people (including the indigenous people right here) that we can even justify sending troops with guns to murder them, without having received an invitation, and think that we're doing something good. You may not like the terminology, but it's better to call this behaviour what it is, than to succumb to it - don't you think? And if you don't know what's wrong with it, then I feel sorry for you.
I tire of your righteous indignation, Unionist. I was interested in what Canuquetoo had to offer. You were intent on shutting it down.
Thanks for the lecture.
I tire of your righteous indignation, Unionist. I was interested in what Canuquetoo had to offer. You were intent on shutting it down.
Thanks for the lecture.
No problem. Canadians whose country sends expeditionary forces to invade others, and teach them how to be "civilized", need to be careful how they look down their noses at "inferior beings" like Afghan "tribes". If that's what you call a "lecture", expect to hear lots more of the same.
Canaquetoo: "After spending good money on Pervez Musharraf's self-serving autobiography, I wouldn't waste the breath needed to stand at the till to purchase Hillier's drivel. I did, however, get good value for the amount spent to purchase Sarah Chayes' excellent work: The Punishment of Virtue which goes into some detail about the tribal culture of southern Afghanistan and the intricacies of inter-tribal relations. This, plus reading South Asian papers online, is the basis for my arguments that American policy is counterproductive and harming efforts to form a central government because Afghans have tribal based cultures that do not lend themselves to centralised control."
Right. I would never buy Hillier's memoirs. He is one coarse, ignorant fellow. But since the library beckons, I had to request a loan - a radical sociologist out of Berkley in '69 told us tykes that you had to read what the bastards are reading to understand how to fight them.
But many many years ago I put out .75 cents for a copy of John Masters, Bugles and a Tiger (Ballantine paperback) the memoirs of a Brit officer in late 1930s India and the Frontier (now Pakistan). The British eventually "reached the mountains that separate the subcontinent from Afghanistan. Those mountains extend four hundred miles from the Khyber Pass in the north to the Bolan Pass in the deserts of Baluchistan to the south. They are raw and bare, and a proudly independent people lives in them. These people,Semitic in origin, Moslem in religion, Pushtu in speech, are the Pathans. ("P'tahan") "The Pathans, subdivided into various tribes, live astride the Indo-Afghan border, which runs roughtly down the middle of the mountain chain. Nota only do different members of the same tribe live on oposite sides of the international baoundary, but the same family or subtribe may own winter fields on the Indian side and summer grazing on the Afghan side.
"In all historical time the Pathans have kept themselves alive by a combination of nomad life, half-hearted tillage of the barren earth, armed raids into the settled farmlands of the plains, and levying tolls on the commercial traffic that must use the few routes through their hills. The principal routes are via the Kabul River, the Khyber Pass, the Kurram River, the Tochi River, the Gomal River, and the Bolan Pass.
"Well armed, owning no king or central authority, loosely organized into soviets of tribes, subtribes, and families, fanatically adhering to the Moslem law, addicted to blood fueds and vendettas, the Pathans gave the oncoming British serious pause...."
And so it goes.
And they likely praise Allah every day for their long guns and RPG's.
When has the term 'tribe' or its derivatives ever been presented within the mainstream media to imply anything other than what the use is intended to suggest among readers and viewers. The latest examples reveal that we're expected to associate the term with lawlessness, as in the case of the Pakistani 'tribal' areas, where long range missiles are used to destroy houses and everyone in it. Among the indoctrinated westerners who have come to equate tribalism with lawlessness, this form of 'justice' is seen as the appropriate response because the people affected, as in all ages killed and maimed, are of no account, their lives are meaningless because they are presented to us through the implied meaning of the word 'tribe' as deserving of such fate.
What is appropriate is fury and outrage at those interests in the MSM who propagate these associations of hatred with their all too obvious inferences. Considering the numerous examples of horrific context, instead of defensiveness as the default response to such measured challenges that are offered here to loose terminology, time and effort might be better spent in understanding strongly held views and analysis behind the objections. It isn't too much to ask at all in comparison with what should sicken us when it is absorbed everywhere else.
They do things that I once tried to post here, quoting Masters...but failed. You will find some of them in Kipling's "Tommy". Old Imperialist India stuff, old boy. At least, known to the Raj...
Their history should have alerted "the West" to the insanity of the idea of going there in the first place, but our leaders have not read any of this, and we are not allowed to talk about history that might only be used in the bastardized fashion of our leaders.
I don't understand those pictures of the flag with the little abu ghraib tourture victim.
That's American soldiers tourturing and humiliating Iraq people in a prison in Iraq.
Are Canadians tourturing Afghanistan people in a prison somewhere?
I thought this was about Canadians handing over prisoners who are tourture BY other Afghanistan people. Wouldn't it make more sense to have that abu ghraib man picture on an Afghanistan flag?
Connection seems pretty lame.
I believe the motif's central idea is "torture". The idea that it was exclusive to "others", while "we" were not involved, has been questioned.
You're right. (If we can ignore the "handing over". ) Some find that more difficult than others, apparently.
Is Peter MacKay posting here in his ample spare time?
Why were we handing over prisoners?
Is Peter MacKay posting here in his ample spare time?
LOL LOL!!!
Sparky: "Why were we handing over prisoners?"
We didn't want to shoot them or put them in concentration camps, and it seemed the easiest, most cost-effective thing to do, for anyone not giving a damn about their treatment by the home grown security forces.
The problem was not the use of the word "tribal", but the imperialist racist arrogance of denigrating Afghans, and this is the "sad part", of being too backward in their culture to distinguish between Nice White Western Invaders (Canadians and their aid efforts) and the Bad Guys. They're not advanced enough to see that We Are Their Friends.
But I didn't realize that that information came from a book, so I retract my umbrage.
Yawn.... You don't realise many things because you are too steeped in your own delusions to make any attempt to comprehend the context of anyone's words except to misrepresent them.
The "sad part" is the militarisation of aid delivery.
Hysterical denunciations of "imperialist racial arrogance" is the default position of ideologues with nothing to say.
Hey, Canuqetoo, this is just par for Babble. Trolls and trash if you're not one of "them" and like unionist said - "not worth responding to". Don't know what's wrong with calling a tribe a tribe.
You don't like my comment - so you attack babble? And you "don't know what's wrong with calling a tribe a tribe"? Which tribe is that? Which tribe, kathleen? Which tribe was your buddy referring to? Did you catch the name? Or since they're Afghans, you and your buddy can just assume they're part of some "tribe" which doesn't allow them to appreciate Canadian largesse?
It's racism, western supremacism, xenophobia, and Islamophobia. We are all prone to it, because we are raised to be so superior to third world people (including the indigenous people right here) that we can even justify sending troops with guns to murder them, without having received an invitation, and think that we're doing something good. You may not like the terminology, but it's better to call this behaviour what it is, than to succumb to it - don't you think? And if you don't know what's wrong with it, then I feel sorry for you.
I tire of your righteous indignation, Unionist. I was interested in what Canuquetoo had to offer. You were intent on shutting it down.
Thanks for the lecture.
I think that many posters see the little trooper in the same light. The mods have his back so he feels free to intimidate and silence anyone who dares to disagree with his viewpoint.
Did Hillier's "murderers and scumbags" comment encourage Canadian arrests of innocent Afghanis who were tortured?
Journalist Bruce Wark reports:
http://bit.ly/73CD5k
I think it's also a case that Harpo wanted to show what a good Quisling he was/is for the American Empire.
"Well armed, owning no king or central authority, loosely organized into soviets of tribes, subtribes, and families, fanatically adhering to the Moslem law, addicted to blood fueds and vendettas, the Pathans gave the oncoming British serious pause...."
And so it goes.
In Pakistan, they are refered to as Pakhtoons. The various tribes are supported by regional players like Iran and Pakistan whose intent is to keep Afghanistan destabilised. Pakistan, for strategic depth in its hostilities with India, who is also a regional player, supporting Karzai's government on one hand and tribal entities on the other. Iran, for reasons of a more geopolitical nature than merely keeping a neighbouring nation weak.
I don't understand those pictures of the flag with the little abu ghraib tourture victim.
That's American soldiers tourturing and humiliating Iraq people in a prison in Iraq.
Are Canadians tourturing Afghanistan people in a prison somewhere?
I thought this was about Canadians handing over prisoners who are tourture BY other Afghanistan people. Wouldn't it make more sense to have that abu ghraib man picture on an Afghanistan flag?
Connection seems pretty lame.
An assassin murders someone. In the eyes of the law, the party that paid the hitman is just as guilty as the party that pulled the trigger. The Geneva Conventions are very specific about the handling of detainees. If a party hands detainees over to a third party where it is known or suspected the third party tortures and abuses prisoners, this is a war crime.
edit
Why would Canadians hand Afghans over to the ANP [Afghanistan National Police].
I'm going to throw this out there without causing a dogpile.
The basic idea theory plan hope design thought etc.. etc.. is to take the ANP and turn them into a semi-professional, credible and ethical police force. It's impossible to give them the feeling of authoruty responsibility and professional compitence if we [Be it Canada, NATO] hold their hand and don't let them do their job.
"You're all police officers BUT we don't want you arresting anyone or searching anyone, handling prisoners or giving people traffic tickets". Part of the process is to let them be their own keepers.
Therein lies the problem it seems like we faced in Afghanistan. We want the ANP to basically be police officers but there not "there" yet and by that I mean it's or it was common place for them to take a prisoner drive off somewhere and put the boots to him or even shoot him.
Where do Canadian soldiers fit in?
I'll explain a military wide problem in a moment but Canadian soldiers were basically told what i just said here right? If you get a prisoner hand them over to the ANP because they need to be seen by the locals doing their thing and not having NATO hold their hands OR do everything for them. [This was a same-issue in Bosnia. The search for illegal weapons went from a NATO lead effort to Bosnian police searching for weapons with NATO advisors to Bosnian police working without help or hinderence of NATO].
Canadian soldiers are not stupid though and lots of complains went up the chain of command saying NO we can't hand these prisoners over, their just getting executed. Then it turned into a big bun fight over what to do.
This is just my illinformed opinion but I suspect one major problem is something that is found throughout all militaries in the world. I am sure the military members of this forum current and otherwise will agree. The "troops" can be miserable, not getting paid not getting fed and all around pissed off. yet when a General comes to inspect the troops all he hears is SIR! Everything is great, troops are happy everyone is getting paid well there is plenty of food things are A-OKAY! It's not the privates talking to the generals...
Somehow from the "grunt level" to the general there is a big disconnection. I could not pinpoint it but taking a guess in my little example the middle management does not want to explain why soldiers are not getting fed to a very angry general.
In the case of what we are talking about here though I think the people on the bottom all over knew exactly what was happening and let people know but some how the people on top were told everything is fine the prisoners are being taken care of in a professional manner etc.. etc..
Disconnect somewhere along the way and the truth exactly where will come out and hopefully they will be brought to task over it.
Canada 's Guantanamo Canadian military's role in torture coverup in Afghanistan
But then this is standard operating procedure for Harper's Conservatives. They called New Democratic Party leader Jack Layton "Taliban Jack" for his suggestion that NATO should negotiate with elements of the Taliban. That is now the policy not only of Canada in Afghanistan, but of the Karzai government in Kabul.
Uncle Sam's yes-men in Ottawa are always out of touch.
There is a fundamental truth to the 'disconnect' when the issue is driven top-down such as a piece of kit that end users find poorly designed and useless but it is issued because some careerist refuses to acknowledge any error.
In the case of information driven from the bottom, the careerists only acknowledge the portions that have the potential to reflect well on themselves and, in the case of such damning information as presented by Richard Colvin, any attempt to communicate such info would be throttled to preserve "plausable deniability".
Plausable deniability - what an odious term for cover thine ass.
It's how US shadow government has operated for years at arm's length from cosmetic government. They are still hand in glove with Al CIA'duh and other militant groups working to create an arc of destabilized countries extending from Africa to Central Asia. And our political stooges are only following the general plan handed them from Warshington.
We Are All War Criminals
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article24043.htm
"And because these crimes are committed in all of our names, we are all war criminals..."
"And because these crimes are committed in all of our names, we are all war criminals..."
The crimes are not committed in our names, but in the name of democracy, freedom, modernism... The "war criminals" are those who use these fine principles for their own purposes (count the ways).
We Are All War Criminals
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article24043.htm
"And because these crimes are committed in all of our names, we are all war criminals..."
9/11, Nairobi and Dar es Salaam embassies, USS Cole, Bali, Madrid bombings, London subway, Pakistani suicide bombings, etc..are also atrocities. Radical islamic jihadists are an atrocity. Didn't see the author of your link mention any of that.
Our inability to be strong, united, and play hardball is our weakness in dealing with an enemy who lives and dies by it.
My oh my have the times changed since WW2.
....
My oh my have the times changed since WW2.
Not so much.
We have brainwashed defenders of gratuitous torture of the innocent-- in the name of finally getting "strong, united, and play[ing] hardball". The SS would be proud.
Yeah, "hardball" fails to explain pain of the victim, somehow, rationalize the old "tit for tat", "eye for an eye" stuff.
....
My oh my have the times changed since WW2.
Not so much.
We have brainwashed defenders of gratuitous torture of the innocent-- in the name of finally getting "strong, united, and play[ing] hardball". The SS would be proud.
I do not take joy in the torture of a human being but I also will not call my country's soldiers war criminals.
How about the leadership, military and political? The soldier ("doughboy in WW11 American memory) has had to follow orders too, eh? Always that way in uniform.
"My country's" soldiers, sailors and aircrews should be employed in defence of the motherlan...fatherl... er, place of peace, order and good government.
Politicians are ALL the same to me. Parliament is just a place for the high paid to shout at each other and achieve little most of the time. It doesn't matter the party, minor ideological differences is a very fine line that separates them. Whatever party is the ruler of the day, the opposition parties get up and try to accomplish what?...score points for the next election?...score better points for the leader? It would be the same if the cons were in opposition at the moment, they're all the same.
Does it make the job easier for the men and women who serve in our armed forces in Afghanistan?
Ignatieff isn't so moral himself, is he?....
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/11/24/...
....
My oh my have the times changed since WW2.
Not so much.
We have brainwashed defenders of gratuitous torture of the innocent-- in the name of finally getting "strong, united, and play[ing] hardball". The SS would be proud.
I do not take joy in the torture of a human being but I also will not call my country's soldiers war criminals.
There is no comfort in your statement that you "don't take pleasure" in defending the gratuitous torture of the innocent,
since there are some therapies for hyper-Sadism.
Unfortunately, the "moral" jingoistic rationalizations for torture (for any state or group) is much more intractable and is not seen by the believer as a problem.
....
My oh my have the times changed since WW2.
Not so much.
We have brainwashed defenders of gratuitous torture of the innocent-- in the name of finally getting "strong, united, and play[ing] hardball". The SS would be proud.
Well according to wiki, some of the Nazis welcomed to North America with operation paperclip were actually prosecuted as war crims at the time of the Nuremberg trials. Some of them went on to study torture under various US government sub-programs that rivalled the Manhatten project in scope. They terrorized Latin American and other citizens of the thirdworld where them and their fascist friends waged war on democracy for many years.
Every November the eleventh, Americans and Canadians, and Brits, too, should remember that the Nazis were really our friends. Or at least it would appear that this was the case.
....
My oh my have the times changed since WW2.
Not so much.
We have brainwashed defenders of gratuitous torture of the innocent-- in the name of finally getting "strong, united, and play[ing] hardball". The SS would be proud.
I do not take joy in the torture of a human being but I also will not call my country's soldiers war criminals.
There is no comfort in your statement that you "don't take pleasure" in defending the gratuitous torture of the innocent,
since there are some therapies for hyper-Sadism.
Unfortunately, the "moral" jingoistic rationalizations for torture (for any state or group) is much more intractable and is not seen by the believer as a problem.
Who's innocent? The ones who place IED's and throw acid on school girls faces or the few that may be innocent?
Eastwinds, quit sitting on your laurels and enjoying the good life off the sacrifices of our sacred martyrs. Go to Afghanistan, save the people there from each other; show us how it's done. Go. Now. Git.
Gulbuddin Hekmatyar was infamous for throwing acid in the faces of women when he was a student at Kabul University. He was bosom pals with the west then in the late 70's and 1980's. And now Gulbby is our friend again, or at least, I'm not sure the west or NATO gangsters ever had a serious falling out with him. Mackay is full of Yanqui bullshit.
We Are All War Criminals
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article24043.htm
"And because these crimes are committed in all of our names, we are all war criminals..."
9/11, Nairobi and Dar es Salaam embassies, USS Cole, Bali, Madrid bombings, London subway, Pakistani suicide bombings, etc..are also atrocities. Radical islamic jihadists are an atrocity. Didn't see the author of your link mention any of that.
Our inability to be strong, united, and play hardball is our weakness in dealing with an enemy who lives and dies by it.
My oh my have the times changed since WW2.
The means by which we have employed to combat our enemy have turned us into the very evil we are fighting against.
....
My oh my have the times changed since WW2.
Not so much.
We have brainwashed defenders of gratuitous torture of the innocent-- in the name of finally getting "strong, united, and play[ing] hardball". The SS would be proud.
I do not take joy in the torture of a human being but I also will not call my country's soldiers war criminals.
When you go up the chain of command, who is at the top?
The Canadian government.
Remember also, that former Gen. Rick Hillier (Chief of Defense Staff) signed the Afghan detainee transfer agreement with the Karzai government (something he had no authority to do without the backing of Prime Minister and Parliament) without the monitoring and safeguard provisions and, as of yet, I have heard of no occasion when Hillier subsequently stopped the transfers - he tows the (Cons[ervative]) party line.
To transfer detainees to a party where it is known or suspected that party tortures and abuses detainees is a violation of the Geneva Conventions and the Protocol on the Treatment of Prisoners and is thus a war crime.
The Geneva Conventions also stipulate that soldiers have the duty to disobey unlawful commands. The reason why few soldiers have spoken out publicly about this is because I believe they are too chickenshit over the prospect of a Court Martial and have been indoctrinated (brainwashed) to believe that the interests of the military and its commissioned officer class are the same as the interests of the non commissioned class. Thus criticizing the military and/or its commissioned officer class (falsely) goes against the interest of all soldiers.
Politicians are ALL the same to me. Parliament is just a place for the high paid to shout at each other and achieve little most of the time. It doesn't matter the party, minor ideological differences is a very fine line that separates them. Whatever party is the ruler of the day, the opposition parties get up and try to accomplish what?...score points for the next election?...score better points for the leader? It would be the same if the cons were in opposition at the moment, they're all the same.
Does it make the job easier for the men and women who serve in our armed forces in Afghanistan?
Ignatieff isn't so moral himself, is he?....
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/11/24/...
This issue is being written about in newspapers in the U.S.A., in China, in India and in other countries. Our violation of the Geneva Conventions and thus our committing a war crime has tarnished the reputation of Canada internationally.
This has occurred under a Conservative administration's watch. And what have they done? Did they recognize this as an egregious violation of international law and universal morality and take immediate steps to stop this pernicious situation in a long term and definitive manner?
No, they acted the same way Nixon did when the Watergate story was unfolding: Covering up, lying, "deep sixing" and destroying information, making sure not to leave a paper trail or any physical evidence that would lead to the Office of the President (Nixon) or the Prime Minister's Office (Harper), obstructing justice, intimidating some witnesses while paying others hush money to keep their mouths shut and instructing still others to lie before Congress (Nixon) or Parliament (Harper).
Facing the prospect of impeachment forced Nixon to resign.
I hope facing the prospect of a war crimes trial at the World Court in the Hague, the prospect of a vote of non confidence in the House, the prospect of criminal charges being laid in Canada and the outrage of enough Canadians will either force Harper to resign or force an election.
Who's innocent? The ones who place IED's and throw acid on school girls faces or the few that may be innocent?
Peter MacKay makes the charge that Richard Colvin's claims of detainee abuse "Lack one shred of credible evidence."
Then MacKay is guilty of the very thing he charges Colvin with when he makes an unsubstantiated statement by substituting the word "detainee" for the politically charged word "Taliban".
According to universal justice, one is innocent until proven guilty. That's the way it works. Have any of these detainees be been put on trial? Have any of these detainees been found guilty in a court of law of being "Taliban" and/or having committed acts of terrorism?
If not, then where's MacKay's credible evidence to substantiate his claim/political rhetoric/propaganda?
Gulbuddin Hekmatyar was infamous for throwing acid in the faces of women when he was a student at Kabul University. He was bosom pals with the west then in the late 70's and 1980's. And now Gulbby is our friend again, or at least, I'm not sure the west or NATO gangsters ever had a serious falling out with him. Mackay is full of Yanqui bullshit.
Fidel, you are right. Even as we speak, shadowy representatives of the U.S.A., the U.K. and the Karzai government are holding talks with Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, Jalaluddin Haqqani, Mullah Mohammed Omar and other Taliban and insurgent group commanders to lay down their arms and join the Afghan national government.
There have been some incidents of women and schoolgirls getting acid thrown in their faces after October 2001. These occurrences have largely taken place in eastern Afghanistan, opposite of the region of Pakistan where Gulbuddin is believed to be located, suggesting it is his HIG network that is responsible and not the Taliban or other insurgent groups.
Who does that idiot Hillier think he is kidding with his attempted drive-by smear today?
Damn that Paul Martin for elevating this GI Joe nutbar!
WHOA! The CBC is reporting today that the Red Cross was complaining that they were not notified of prisoners transferred by Canada to the Afghans for as many as eight days and were thus having difficulty tracking them. Eight days? Now, I admit I'm a suspicious type, but was this CF policy done with a nudge, nudge, wink, wink to enable torture of detainees without the concern of busybody NGOs? Is this why a former top general will argue he was negligent and entirely irresponsible in not reading reports?
Interestingly, Hillier argues that they may have transfered "Afghan farmers by day and Taliban by night". Has our "kill the scum" general just admitted the Afghan war is a popular war of liberation against foreign occupation? Doesn't all of this make him a war criminal?
What a day!
continued here
Who does that idiot Hillier think he is kidding with his attempted drive-by smear today?
Damn that Paul Martin for elevating this GI Joe nutbar!
Hillier admitted that we (Canadian military) had substantive credible evidence that Afghan detainees were tortured and abused by Afghan authorities. This vindicates Richard Colvin's claims. Hillier, MacKay and Harper, it seems, lack the intellectual capacity to realize this.
It was reported that the halt of the transfer of detainees occurred four times. Thus, the corrupt Karzai government failed four times to stop the torture and abuse. This begs the question, does this torture and abuse still continue? Needless to say, these are yet more incidents where the Harper administration looks bad.
And the Liberals. They would have turned a blind eye. too. Liberals dragged us into crazy George's quagmire in the Stan, and they've supported the Harpers all along.
The Liberals and the Cons follow the same play book. What the cons are doing now, the Liberals have done in the past.
David Mulroneys testimony should be priceless
Whether the prisoners were guilty or innocent of anything is irrelevent. As prisoners of war they are covered under the Geneva Conventions and subject to its protection. Chain of command may be the right procedure at first but any subsequent order to continue turning prisoners over to Afghan authorities was an illegal order if soldiers knew that they were being executed or tortured. This is the problem. Do individual soldiers serving in Afghanistan at the time or today 'know' that prisoners were being tortured? This goes to the nature of the complaints by individual soldiers which were sent up the command structure. Will the inquiry here from those individual soldiers?
Rape is a war crime. Any Afghan soldier committing this offense is guilty of a war crime. Any NATO soldier knowing or witnessing such a crime and does not report it is guilty of complicity.
The USS Cole, Madrid, London, foreign embassies outside of Afghanistan, throwing acid in the face of girls and the abuse of women in general are not relevent and in fact 9/11 is no longer relevent in this specific case. None of these prisoners were or have been charged with pariticipation in, planning or complicity in these past or present crimes. There is no evidence that Al Queda or those who consider themselves to be Taleban have any central command and are linked directly to any of these past events. There is no clear distinction between a Taleban enemy soldier and a Taleban member of parliament, an 'insurgent' (whatever that is specifically) and an Afghan citizen legitimately fighting against a corrupt central Afghan government and NATO/ISAF members backing that government. The Canadian and NATO allies continue to claim that the war has gone through several phases, missions etc. which is used to defend the original invasion and subsequent missions to restore government and order yet claim and work to continue the illusion that their opposition is one and the same from the beginning. There is no difference in the abuse suffered by women by any of the warlord led clans or provinces in their control. When it comes to the abuse of women, as we define this abuse for the purpose of continuing the war and occupation of Afghanistan, there simply is no good guy. These are all the same emotional 'sales pitches' used by people like 'Eastwinds' above to either justify what is happening or deny any need for self-examination. This is the same tactic used by Hillier and others in their testimony when they intentionally refuse to describe soldiers as soldiers but use the phrase "...killing our sons and daughters."
The argument that the Afghan judicial system is in its infancy is a ludicrous excuse. After almost ten years the Afghan authorities still need to be told that it is wrong to torture, be corrupt or deal in drugs? The Afghan judicial system isn't going to change because there is no requirement for it to do so. The argument that Canadian soldiers need to be seen handing over prisoners to the Afghan officials so that they can be 'seen' to do their job is also ludicrous and has no credibility. The Afghan officials don't deserve to be solely in charge until they prove they can be trusted. Until that time the fate of soldiers, citizens or any others who are captured or dealt with by Canadian military and civilian personnel remains the the responsibility of the Canadian government. This also creates the impression that there are no honest Afghans capable of taking on these civil society roles and this is a lie. Corrupt people remain in positions of authority in Afghanistan either by design or lack of political will to change.
"...killing our sons and daughters."
This is a war where our sons and daughters are waging an illegal aggressive war and killing Afghan sons and daughters who are legitimately defending their country.
What (if any) meaning does the War of 1812 have to these four star clowns?
Good points Mimeguy.
It could get things sidetracked to start talking about whether or not the tortured prisoners were "guilty" or not, or even if they were soldiers or not. Nobody gets tortured, thats the rule, period.
The issue of rape: I read an article about how bad it is in Afghanistan right now, with rape being perpetrated left right and centre there.
Reporting: YA!! There should be some soldiers out there who DID report it, but were turned away and told to mind their own business. Also, that every soldier has a duty to report war crimes, and every soldier should be reminded of that duty and given a chance to report it without risking sanctions from their superiors. Perhaps a method of reporting that goes to some outside agency, other than the military in the field, who can record and investigate the claims. Whadda ya think of that??
I'm sure the Liberals are just playing games here. They know there will never be an inquiry so they support the issue.Pressure mounts for public inquiry on Afghan torture
“We're looking at what needs to be established in terms of what happened,” New Democrat MP Paul Dewar, who sponsored the motion, said during today's debate. “Is there any other option than a public inquiry in light of the fact that we have a government that refused to dispense all the documents?”
Even if the Commons passes the motion, it cannot force the government of Prime Minister Stephen Harper to launch the inquiry since that is a decision that rests with the executive branch of government. But it would increase pressure on the Conservative minority, which would then be forced to decide if it will reject the will of the Parliament.
MPs from all three opposition parties expressed support for the motion, with many citing the government's refusal to release information.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/pressure-mounts-for-public-inquiry-on-afghan-torture/article1384317/
Tory adds patriot game to torture allegations strategyWhat the Tories are doing with their militarization of the country, said Keith Martin, the Liberal MP who used to sit with the Alliance Party, is build the military men into heroes and then demolish anyone who dares breathe an unfavourable word.
On the detainees’ question we don’t know which side is correct. The Conservatives are hunkering down. They are not releasing results of Canadian military police investigations in Afghanistan. They’ve stonewalled the Canadian Military Police Complaints Commission on the issue. They declare important correspondence off limits because of national security.
This gives the impression that they have something to hide on this file. It may well be the reason why they are playing their demagogic patriot game. It’s the best card they’ve got.
http://www.metronews.ca/vancouver/comment/article/383929--tory-adds-patriot-game-to-torture-allegations-strategy
Harper using soldiers as his shieldRichard Colvin isn't the latest public servant gutted for doing a job embarrassingly well. That dubious honour belongs to RCMP public complaints commissioner Paul Kennedy who is to be replaced later this month after publicly detailing snafus ranging from the force's still unexplained intervention in the 2006 federal election to the airport death of Robert Dziekanski.
Kennedy and Colvin are part of a pattern that overlays almost every controversy. Nuclear safety watchdog Linda Keen was wrongly collared for the medical isotope shortage. Chief Electoral Officer Marc Mayrand was savaged for probing suspicious Conservative campaign funding. Respected deputy minister Louis Ranger left his post after apparently applying too stringent taxpayer protection to billions in stimulus spending.
However varied the specific motivation, the result is universally predictable. Partisan spin twists debate until the public interest is lost in the din of diversionary bafflegab.
To follow the crazily bouncing "messaging" ball is to arrive empty-headed at false assumptions.
It's not, as the Prime Minister would have voters believe, about which political party stands shoulder-to-shoulder with the armed forces. It's not about Colvin's credibility. It's not even about the hard, unequivocal, blood-and-bruises evidence military leaders insist was missing from serial warnings.
Reduced to its essence, the Afghanistan prisoner storm is about political accountability. Canada had a problem with transfers when Liberals were the ruling party and it reached a tipping point just months after Conservatives came to power. Both governments applied situational Band-Aids, both ducked the tough, expensive actions needed to ensure this country was doing everything necessary to comply with the letter and spirit of domestic and international law.
Far from protecting the troops, that expediency ratcheted risks higher. It exposed them to local reprisals as well as to legal liability and made victory in a hearts-and-minds war all that more elusive.
Those failures are now compounded by what looks, feels and smells like yet another cover-up. Fast as stories are changing, there's now compelling evidence that more than enough was known in June 2006 to stop the transfers or add the safeguards that weren't put in place for more than a year.
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/afghanmission/article/732914--harper-using-soldiers-as-his-shield?bn=1
When the first Canadian soldiers said Hey Boss the Afghan police are killing the guys we hand over to them it should have went up the chain of command and something should have been done end of story.
I'm not sure what the fuck people up high were thinking. As if any of this shit would not come out.
News flash: They're still thinking this shit will not come out!!!
Closing for length
continued here
Jeeze remind, I was just doing that...
thanks though