Chávez: Reuniting with Capitalists (a Temporary Reprieve before the Post-Oil World)
This report from the IHT indicates that Chávez may have to (reluctantly, I'm sure) reunite with those (hated) capitalist oil exploration companies to get his oil production up (which has cratered since he largely nationalized the industry):
http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/01/15/america/15venez.php?page=1
"In 10 years, not one major oil project has been built in Venezuela," said the oilman, who asked not to be identified for fear of retribution. "Chávez has left his so-called strategic partners out to dry, like the Chinese, who have been given the same treatment as Exxon."
and
"Chávez is celebrating the demise of capitalism as this international crisis unfolds," said Pedro Mario Burelli, a former board member of Petróleos de Venezuela [Venezuela's state run oil company]. "But the irony is that capitalism actually fed his system in times of plenty," he said. "That is something Chávez will discover the hard way."
If Venezuela can't even pump oil out of the ground, I can't imagine the government creating a diverse post-oil economy over the next twenty years that will even begin to fill the gap left by oil revenue.
Life is going to really suck in Venezuela in the post-oil world.
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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!
The increase in output by Petroleos de Venezuela S.A. Gas (PDVSA Gas) was achieved as part of a plan by President Hugo Chavez's socialist government to "increase natural gas consumption to support petrochemical development and improve people's quality of life."
Source
Of course, Petróleos de Venezuela is the same state-controlled entity that claims oil production is at the same level as it was ten years ago. Besides, natural gas production is not Venezuela's bread-and-butter . It's oil (with that hated King of Capitalism, America, being the only customer who actually pays the full market price for Venezuela's oil and, thus, Venezuela is dependent upon, albeit indirectly, on capitalism to fund its "wonderfully-working" socialism).
And, again, when we enter a post-oil world, life in Venezuela is going to suck.
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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!
Yes, we can't believe the state oil company but we must believe the self-interested privateers. Sure, Sven. Sure. :rolleyes:
The article said OPEC (not the "privateers") believes that Venezuela is overstating production by 50%.
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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!
Chavez is just a man behind a curtain. The socialist "miracle" in Venezuela is actually a system that is funded by oil purchased (at full market prices) by the capitalist Americans. When oil is no longer the energy source running the world, what will Venezuela do to replace that ocean of money? It should be fun to watch that over the next twenty years or so.
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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!
LOL!!!
Chavez is just a man behind a curtain. The socialist "miracle" in Venezuela is actually a system that is funded by oil purchased (at full market prices) by the capitalist Americans.
Well I guess that's true now since Chavez reversed dicision to provide free home heating oil to hundreds of thousands of poverty stricken Americans.
There is no end to the silly things you say on this forum, Sven. Socialism is working to eradicate illiteracy and poor health in Venezuela. And after ten years of US-backed corruption and neoliberal voodoo in Nicaragua, Cuba is helping pick up the pieces with aid work and literacy programs in picking that country off its knees. Neoliberal capitalism is failing the world over. Capitalism is a monumental failure the world over.
Viva La Revolucion!
Socialism in Venezuela is not "working" to do anything. It's shifting oil wealth around (which is funded by capitalist dollars) but, other than that, it's not laying a foundation for a post-oil economy.
Good luck to 'em in 20 years.
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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!
In any case, Sven even you would have to concede that Venezuela would have nothing to gain from going back to the pre-Chavez era. Privatization never helped that country, or any Latin American regime it was forcibly imposed on by the banks.
Why are you loyal to the rich anyway? They've never done a damn thing for you.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________ Our Demands Most Moderate are/ We Only Want The World! -James Connolly
Socialism in Venezuela is not "working" to do anything. It's shifting oil wealth around (which is funded by capitalist dollars) but, other than that, it's not laying a foundation for a post-oil economy.
In order for democracy to exist, people have to be educated and have access to information. And there has to be health care.
If you did some basic research, you'd realize that neoliberal policies as forced upon dozens of developing countries by the Washington based IMF and lopsided trade policies maintained by WTO etc, has "worked" to achieve the opposite of well educated and health civilian populations around the world. I say health civilian populations because its usually US aid to Latin America's militaries providing three squares a day to appeal to wouldbe mercenaries for hire.
That's exactly what I said when US managed elections took place in Haiti and Nicaragua and El Salvador, and Honduras, and those bottom of the barrel human rights hellholes in Afghanistan and Pakistan after decades of US meddling. Those countries want freeing from Uncle Sam's tentacles, Sven. Capitalism has had decades to produce results in test labs around the world. And they have failed miserably. It's time to shit or get off the pot.
I don't think democracy or privatization should be forced on anyone. If Venezuelans want socialism, that's fine by me. But, it's a farce. All Chavez has is oil (and he can't even pump that out of the ground efficiently with his state-run oil company). When the oil is gone or when oil demand has shifted to other energy sources, what is Venezuela going to have left? What industry has the Messiah Chavez built up on the last ten years that is going to sustain his socialist system in the future?
I'm loyal to the concept of individual freedom.
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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!
I think that Chavez, like most of the other OPEC countries that have enjoyed a very rich (but limited) natural resource, is going to flush down the toilet a wonderful opportunity to have used that wealth to create a diverse industrial economy to replace the inevitable loss of oil wealth (and that inevitable someday is rapidly approaching).
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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!
As your countryman James Galbraith said, many people do not understand how the US built a bustling economy since the failure of laissez-faire capitalism of the 1930's. Your country actually did it with lots and lots of socialism, Sven, with large public sectors and government employment delivering social services and amenties to the middle class - about a third of annual governmental spending - all socialism - and nothing to do with free markets. Galbraith mentions liberal use of something called soft budget constraints, which was a feature of Soviet economies of Eastern Europe. It seems that, like all prosperous empires of the past, the US has decided it best to "kick away" the ladder of success, and instead recommended just about every laissez-faire economic policy for the developing world which actually failed in America.
Why does Washington consensus and IMF economists not demand that developing countries implement US style social security, the most successful socialist program in US history? And there's more, Sven, a lot more. Dont ever fool yourself.
Why is anyone even commenting on Sven, you aren't going to change him. I have been here for years listening to his near baiting drivel. It's a waste of time, we aren't going to be changed y his disingenous tales, Nor will he ever take the american capitalist blinders off. I just skip his posts....why doesn't new babble have ignore feature, that would be more useful than the tag line debate.
No kidding. This thread is pure trolling, through and through. Don't bite the bait.
Chavez is just a man behind a curtain. The socialist "miracle" in Venezuela is actually a system that is funded by oil purchased (at full market prices) by the capitalist Americans.
Well I guess that's true now since Chavez reversed dicision to provide free home heating oil to hundreds of thousands of poverty stricken Americans.
There is no end to the silly things you say on this forum, Sven. Socialism is working to eradicate illiteracy and poor health in Venezuela. And after ten years of US-backed corruption and neoliberal voodoo in Nicaragua, Cuba is helping pick up the pieces with aid work and literacy programs in picking that country off its knees. Neoliberal capitalism is failing the world over. Capitalism is a monumental failure the world over.
Viva La Revolucion!
And where would Cuba's efforts be without the tourism dollars of wealthy Canadians and Europeans. I wish they would socialize tourism, as I would love to be able to afford a trip to either Cuba or Venezuala right now!
First, if you'll recall, there was a rather large strike at the state oil company a few years ago, an opposition effort to topple Chavez. Rather difficult to run a socialist oil company when you have capitalists sabotaging you.
Second, the "post oil world" isn't coming because we're not going to be using any, it's coming because oil production has peaked and we're no longer going to be able to increase it. So, with the exception of a global economic crash... like, say, the one we're in now... oil prices are only going to rise for the foreseeable future. Given that, raising production now, while oil prices are at an obvious low point, would be rather silly anyway. Having a US President who doesn't think "renewable" is a 4 letter word doesn't mean that's going to change.
And third, calling socialism a failure in the midst of the biggest failure of capitalism in the last 70 years takes a lot of chutzpah. ;)
And where would Cuba's efforts be without the tourism dollars of wealthy Canadians and Europeans. I wish they would socialize tourism, as I would love to be able to afford a trip to either Cuba or Venezuala right now!
Wow, "socialized tourism"...never thought of that.
Here, Commrade, you have your choice of two vacation options this year:
(1) We will ship you to Cuba in a comfortable but sparse cargo plane outfitted with small but adequate seats. Upon arrival, you will be walking about a mile to your hotel, which will include a twin bed and...well...nothing else. The shower and restroom facilities are all shared with the other guests. Your meals will be served at precisely 7am, noon, and 5pm and will consist of one small glass of wine and a fixed menu. You will enjoy (that is a directive) the once-daily entertainment event provided to all guests. To ensure your good health (as we know what's best for you), you must participate in the 5am exercise event and lights are out at 9pm...sharp.
OR
(2) You can stay home in your cubiclesque apartment located in your government-provided high-rise complex.
The beauty of this? It's "free", everyone is equal, and the government can even claim they gave you a "choice"!!!
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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!
Sven's line of argument -- a shining example of the unity of the ultraleft and right.
Well, I think a person kinda has to admit that the idea of "socialized tourism" is pretty comical.
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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!
Well, I think a person kinda has to admit that the idea of "socialized tourism" is pretty comical.
Imagine that just one country waged genocidal sanctions against the premier capitalist country. Imagine that the largest importer of American goods and services told corporate America to shove the plastic widgets and toilet paper where the sun doesnt shine as it is with Helms-Burton and Cuba. Corporate America would be hard up to replace its largest export recipient for the last 50 years running:Canada. And this frightening scenario is only an embargo of US exports to Canada. We wont even imagine what it would be like for cororate America if our stooges grew spines someday and placed export sanctions of Canadian oil and gas and massive amounts of hydroelectric power in propping up an ideology now failing under ideal conditions. What I can imagine though is an NDP federal government peeling a few more dollars per barrel of oil and cubic metre of gas and hydro from US companies operating in Canada and "energy nationalism" for the benefit of all Canadians. [/smug off]
They should follow Alberta's stellar example of how freedom-lovers treat a diminishing resource. In the post-oil world, how do you think Alberta, and indeed the rest of Canada, will fare?
Have we spent our oil wealth (that is, the measly trickle of "royalties" we get in one hand, while shovelling oilsand-sized dumptrucks full of cash to the multinationals with the other) wisely? What did we spend it on? I'll tell you: highways, parking lots, strip malls, urban sprawl, subsidized industrial agriculture, and horseracing (I shit you not).
When the post oil world hits, much of Canada will have to be abandoned back to the boreal forests and the Moose, if there are any left. Unlike Europe, which developed pre-oil and still has much of that horsedrawn infrastructure around, we will be forced to flee to more temperate climes, to places where our groceries aren't a ten minute drive away. That's if there is such a thing as post oil groceries.
So in the future, you can gloat over the failures of socialism in Venezuela from the comfort of the refugee/concentration camp somewhere in the American southwest.
Now that is something I'd like to see.
Blah, blah, blah. What has failed is capitalism. Read your newspapers. All over the globe the capitalists are saying the market has failed them and demanding socialism for themselves and that the middle- and working-classes not only pay for it, but suffer the discipline of the market that has failed. If you're middle-class or working-class and still defending capitalism, you're too fucking stupid to be helped.
Does anyone actually disagree with this excellent point made by Sven, or is this thread about pro- and anti-Chavez chest thumping?
The country that seems to be managing its oil economy the most wisely is Norway.
Does anyone actually disagree with this excellent point made by Sven, or is this thread about pro- and anti-Chavez chest thumping?
The country that seems to be managing its oil economy the most wisely is Norway.
And socialist Norway has to its credit: free post-secondary ed for all Norwegians, something Sven scoffed at above - well-funded socialized medicine - a national daycare program - high per capita incomes
Sven should read what Harvard economic shock therapist Jeffrey Sachs said about it in his web essay The Social Welfare State, beyond Ideology
But in order for Venezuela and countries like it which have tried the neoliberal voodoo on for size and discovered that education and health care take a back seat to resource extraction and usurous debt payments to the IMF and western banksters, they have to invest in and build their public sectors from scratch.
Throughout the cold war, the US and its NATO friends bombed schools and hospitals built by Marxists and political neutrals in variojus Latin American countries and around the world. The hawks' plan against domino effect included mercenary operations to destroy these seeds of socialism, universalhealth care and education. In fact, public education and scholarships for higher learning in the US through upside-down socialism in the military and other programs led to scientific advances in academia and public agencies like DARPA. And as a result of Sputnik and the cold war threat of red menace, the US reacted by investing heavily in education and basic research funded by US tax dollars(ie. socialism). By 1960, the US was the first western nation where 60% of adults leaving highschool were diploma'd graduates! So I'm not sure where Sven is coming from when he says Chavez isnt achieving anything when his own country used to follow a pretty good model for public education and socialist style investment in wide ranging public sector endevours leading up to Ronald Reagan and the advent of neoliberal economic voodoo.
No Money=No Socialist Paradise in the Sky-strewth
And kapitalism is doin' tha grand swan dive all over again. It's a car constantly on blocks
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=8765
Seems like the Venezuela has nothing in common with the Nordic nations.
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=8765
Seems like the Venezuela has nothing in common with the Nordic nations.
The Nordic nations were piss poor at one time, too. Lumber barons once stripped Sweden of its timber wealth and left everything all trampled down, barren and bare. It took several generations to create a well educated and healthy public capable of becoming a competitive social democracy. The same was true of the USA. Before the Manhatten project, for example, Canada was considered a leader over the USA as far as nuclear power know-how was concerned. The US sank a lot of money into education and public works from mid 1930's to the 1960's and reducing illiteracy and infant mortality along the way. They almost had tuberculosis eradicated in the US until Reagan came along with neoliberal baloney.
CATO is one of the stranger make-believe rightwing think tanks. Friedman and Pinochet are both dead now, but theyve still tried to perpetuate the myth that was "Pinochet's miracle" in Chile. Newt Gingrich and one of Pinochet's fascist administrators used to run around the US trumpeting Chile's privatized pension fund. Few Liberal Democrats listens to those guys anymore now that Wall Street jackals couldnt manage finance for lemonade stand without effin things up.
Palast was a former student of Milton Friedman's at the Chicago School of Economics. Palast was a student of finance then. But he exposes the lie that was framed up to be an "ersatz genesis fable" for the new liberal capitalism to be implemented in test labs around the world from 1980's forward. And deregulated capitalism has failed in just about every economic sector and country where tried since then. Capitalism is a monumental failure. In fact, capitalism in all its forms has failed around the world since 14th century Italy.
Life is going to really suck in Venezuela in the post-oil world.
And, again, when we enter a post-oil world, life in Venezuela is going to suck.
These examples of serial baiting, mocking and utter lack of serious argument, history or evidence have characterized Sven's posting style for as long as I can remember. 1) Why is this thread still open (since it is an obvious attempt at trolling and baiting) and 2) Why is Sven allowed to post on this board when all he has to offer is antagonism, mockery and hot air?
I think Sven must sometimes have a difficult time reconciling what is said on this forum with what he is bombarded with 24-7 in his own country. I've been in the States a number of times, and the rightwing rhetoric is constant and pervasive. It's everywhere with thousands of privatized radio stations and television stations all. I actually think that someone like Sven might be reading this forum out of personal curiosity and interest. Aside from his political views, Sven seems personable enough. I bet he's a pretty good guy, jts. Sven has been to Canada a number of times. But just being here is no real guarantee he's exposed to leftwing thought. Canada has plenty of people who are right-thinking and lost in the political wilderness for sure. Sven seems fascinated by rabble. Well I say, good for Sven and his enquiring mind. rabble is a pretty good site as far as everyone's concerned apparently
I think Sven must sometimes have a difficult time reconciling what is said on this forum with what he is bombarded with 24-7 in his own country. I've been in the States a number of times, and the rightwing rhetoric is constant and pervasive. It's everywhere with thousands of privatized radio stations and television stations all. I actually think that someone like Sven might be reading this forum out of personal curiosity and interest. Aside from his political views, Sven seems personable enough. I bet he's a pretty good guy, jts. Sven has been to Canada a number of times. But just being here is no real guarantee he's exposed to leftwing thought. Canada has plenty of people who are right-thinking and lost in the political wilderness for sure. Sven seems fascinated by rabble. Well I say, good for Sven and his enquiring mind. rabble is a pretty good site as far as everyone's concerned apparently
Fidel, I'd have a beer with you any day.
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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!
I completely agree with Fidel, despite the pissing matches I get into with Sven.
Opps cross-posted with Sven...
Thank God I am not an American. I can't imagine what i would be like if i am "bombarded 24/7" about "individual freedom". :vomits:
Fidel, will you at least acknowledge that the Nordic countries you laud (which I think Canada would do well to emulate in a lot of ways) have a respect for individual freedom, liberty and democracy that Chavez does not have?
Chavez seem to be learning from the tactics of neo-liberal governments in dealing with troublesome protestors:
CARACAS, Jan 19 (Reuters) - Assailants attacked Venezuela's opposition with tear gas on Monday after President Hugo Chavez told police to use gas at anti-government public disturbances ahead of a referendum on allowing the leftist re-election.
Venezuelans will vote on Feb. 15 on a proposed change to the constitution allowing Chavez and other politicians to stay in office as long as they keep winning elections.
I've enjoyed the periodic moments of "thrust and parry" I've had with you, Stargazer! There are a few things that we agree on and many that we disagree on. But, I've always admired your passion...and respected you for voluntarily sharing some very personal, difficult, and poignant events from your life. I think we could have some good laughs together over a beer or a coffee, too!
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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!
This report from the IHT indicates that Chávez may have to (reluctantly, I'm sure) reunite with those (hated) capitalist oil exploration companies to get his oil production up (which has cratered since he largely nationalized the industry):
If Venezuela can't even pump oil out of the ground, I can't imagine the government creating a diverse post-oil economy over the next twenty years that will even begin to fill the gap left by oil revenue.
Thats what you want to say, not what the article indicates.
The drop in oil prices has simply meant that Chavez does not have as much bargaining power.
Venezuala has never pretended that it can invest in its industry on its own. It wanted to do it on its own terms, so the multinationals took their bat away.
With inflated oil prices Chavez could afford to let production continue to lag, and wait to do it the hard way. He relied on Chinese and other companies that don't have the experience and depth for Venezualas conditions. The equivalent would be using Chines and Iranian companies in Albertas tar sands. Thats going to take time to actually work.
Prices going down means the room for that learning curve process has been decreased.
What the article does say is that Chavez is a realist who knows he needs the multinationals more than he did a year ago. And even with lower oil prices, there are too few big projects available to the large multinationals. So enough of them will bite on the new offers from Vanezuala
Life is going to really suck in Venezuela in the post-oil world.
Because of Chavez says you.
It would be so much better if they left running the industry to the multinationals and the privileged Venezualans.
They will suck it dry until there's nothing left. In fact, even if Chavez was just the fool and charlatan you and others presume will wreck the industry, Venezualans would still fare better.... because at least they would have got something out of it along the way.
And if Chavez is the wrecker you make him out to be, even that fictitious straw man would do better for Venezualans. Because oil left in the ground is worth something to Venezualans.
The only reason Alberatns are not impoverished by pumping out of the ground as fast as possible and on the oil companies price and terms, is because there are few enough Albertans that you can buy off the masses with good jobs. Good jobs are not to be snezzed at, but they are crumbs compared to the wealth of the resource. And crumbs don't buy off many people with the much larger population of Vanezuela.
Is an ad hominem attack necessary? Your post was moving along rather nicely without it.
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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!
And you think that report is accurate why? Most Americans, like Sven, think their outgoing government was democratic and free despite all the evidence, and think that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and was in league with al Qaeda despite all the evidence. Despite all the evidence of free elections, recalls, and referendums, most Americans think that Chavez is a dictator. Do you know why? Because they get their news from the MSM and TV in particular.
For anyone interested in the truth, the first thing to do is turn off the TV and the next thing to do is acknowledge what you read can't be trusted.
Frustrated Mess: "Most Americans ... think that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and was in league with al Qaeda despite all the evidence."
According to a Harris Poll conducted on Dec 29, 2005, 41% of U.S. adults believed that Saddam Hussein had strong links to Al Qaeda, and 26% of adults believed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction when the U.S. invaded. 41% and 26% are not "most".
These numbers seem to be part of a decreasing trend: here are the numbers from October 2004 and February 2005:
Saddam Hussein had strong links to Al Qaeda: Oct 2004, 62%; Feb 2005, 64%; Dec 2005, 41%.
Iraq had weapons of mass destruction when the U.S. invaded. Oct 2004, 38%; Feb 2005, 36%; Dec 2005, 26%
As for what Americans believe now, if the trend from higher to lower numbers has continued (I couldn't find a more recent survey) then it seems that most Americans, in fact, do not currently "think that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and was in league with al Qaeda despite all the evidence."
Depend if it is a Fox News Poll
What Sven has been utterly unable to demonstrate is how anything would have been better in Venezuela if the neoliberal types had kept control there, or even how anything would have been "freer" .
Remember, it was under the neoliberal Venezuelan governments of the past that trade unionists were slaughtered in the streets of Caracas for simply protesting against an IMF austerity pogrom(spelling intentional). Teargassing is a bad thing, but trivial compared to actually killing people.
What Sven seems to have trouble remember is that, since 90% of the world's population will never be able to afford to purchase property, that same 90% will never see property rights or the right to make money as having anything remotely to do with freedom. For that 90% freedom will have much more to do with being able to feed their kids, knowing they can stage a protest without getting shot by the secret police or being tortured in a U.S.-funded prison, and being able to get medical care whether or not they have a penny in their pocket at the time they need it.
The right to get rich, that right that Sven appears to think is more important than any other right, will never be a right that matters to more than a tiny handful of the children of the Earth. True freedom, to them, is the right to be able to survive and to flourish and to live with dignity without being rich. And that right doesn't exist in the type of "freedom" Sven talks about.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________ Our Demands Most Moderate are/ We Only Want The World! -James Connolly
According to a Harris Poll conducted on Dec 29, 2005, 41% of U.S. adults believed that Saddam Hussein had strong links to Al Qaeda, and 26% of adults believed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction when the U.S. invaded. 41% and 26% are not "most".
You don't say? Huh.
The Associated Press
Monday, August 7, 2006; 6:24 AM
-- Do you believe in Iraqi "WMD"? Did Saddam Hussein's government have weapons of mass destruction in 2003?
Half of America apparently still thinks so, a new poll finds, and experts see a raft of reasons why: a drumbeat of voices from talk radio to die-hard bloggers to the Oval Office, a surprise headline here or there, a rallying around a partisan flag, and a growing need for people, in their own minds, to justify the war in Iraq....
... a Harris Poll released July 21 found that a full 50 percent of U.S. respondents _ up from 36 percent last year _ said they believe Iraq did have the forbidden arms when U.S. troops invaded in March 2003
You will note the date is 2006. And in 2007?
Angus Reid Global Monitor : Polls & Research
Half of Americans Link Hussein and al-Qaeda January 07, 2007(Angus Reid Global Monitor) - Many adults in the United States believe Saddam Hussein collaborated with a terrorist network, according to a poll by Knowledge Networks for the Program on International Policy Attitudes. 32 per cent of respondents think Iraq gave substantial support to al-Qaeda, and 18 per cent think the Iraqi government was directly involved in the 9/11 terrorist attacks.I wonder how many Americans and people world-wide think there should be a real investigation into 9-11 before one more minute is spent on the phony war on terror in Afghanistan and Iraq?
This thread is about Venezuela and their leader-known as El Mongo in Latina America.
Sven is right, Chavez has failed to do anything to build the non-petroleum sectors of the economy and prepare for either today's low oil prices or a post-oil future:
(Source - Banco Central de Venezuela)
That's an estimated $60B shortfall, just for 2009. Imagine what will happen when the oil simply runs out. If this was Alberta, we'd all be quick to condemn the government for similarly failing to plan for the future. But of course, they're conservatives (boo, hiss, two-minutes-of-hate) and therefore totally different.
It will be interesting to see how much popularity Chavez retains when faced with actually limits on his ability to spend resources.
A_J:
I looked for (but couldn't find) a graph like you posted for GDP by sector, as opposed to just exports... since the focus on non-oil production in Venezuela is not for export (unless I'm mistaken) this would provide a clearer picture. Can you help me out here?
I'm quite getting sick of these pseudo-lefties here who love to throw aspersions on Venezuela. Why? Because Chavez is pro-Palestinian? Because he represents a set of principle long since abandoned by the armchair liberals in the North? Because he breaks the mold of complacency as he tries to lift his country, and those around him up so they don't buckle under the thumb of the empire?
Sven's tone, and past posts do reveal a pattern of animosity if not sheer contempt for Chavez, or any other Third World leader who is not a tool or puppet of the West. Unfortunately, a lot of so-called "social democrats" think in the same way.
It's the same with those "middle class" students in Venezuela who cannot stand to see a mixed blood brown man leading their country and are burning with rage and resentment at the poor who are finally rising up and becoming active citizens. In fact, these so called student organizations have led very violent demonstrations against the government, just as paramilitaries employed by big landowners have killed peasant activists. The fact that they are being encouraged by the West to again put a boot on the necks of the uppity dwellers of the barrios is a great shame, and sure sign of the perversion of the world media order.
Over the last years, Chavez has played nice, refusing to move against the powerful interests in the country and abroad who have tried to topple his government. The last thing we need is arrogant gringos spreading their putrid hackery here.
Neither has capitalist Canada. The capitalist US not only has failed to plan but its only strategies are reduced to bombing, looting, and transferring wealth from the middle-class to the rich. Or does the collapse of the global market economy strike people as evidence of the supremacy of capitalism?
Have you ever contributed anything that isn't completey stupid or are you contributing to the best of your abilities?
Having been to Venezuela I can asure you that there are very few non-brown mixed race Venezuelans anywhere in the country once you eliminate the Blacks and Indians-it's a mixed race country and you are FOS.
So is Canada, but how many non-whites are at the higher ranks of government? I've been to Venzuela too. So what? We all watched the documenytary 'The Revolution Won't be Televised" and we all saw the coup leaders, including members of the Catholic Church, and we all saw that they were lilly white except for the military officers who freed Chavez.
Sven is right, Chavez has failed to do anything to build the non-petroleum sectors of the economy and prepare for either today's low oil prices or a post-oil future:
Canada has frittered away revenues from massive energy exports to the US for a long time. And just look at us now - we're still heavily indebted to the banking cabal and now staring down the gun barrel of even more red ink over the next five years according to some estimates.
Our Neglected Human Capital Must Be Recognized and Used
It could be said that Chavez is following the advice of Nobel economist Theodore Schultz as opposed to the now discredited neoliberal ideology that failed in a number of countries where tried, from Chile to Argentina to Haiti and Nicaragua, to South Africa and Russia, Iceland etc. Just because rightwing neoliberal ideology has failed to produce prosperous economies in dozens of test labs around the world doesnt mean that Chavez' socialism will produce the same miserable results. Chavez is a socialist, and he knows there are no shortcuts to creating a healthy, well-educated and confident nation of human beings. It's the human capital. The wheels have fallen off speculative capital.
Viva la Revolucion!
Venezuela's Citgo still subsidizing home heating fuel for quarter million poverty-stricken Americans in 20 US states
That Huffington post article's analogy is has a big hole in it: Chavez may have spent lots of his oil revenue, and it may dry up, but without Chavez it would have been pocketed by a couple oil industry oligarchs and would have helped no one at all; its wonderful to imagine that each year the leaves fall and by the next year they are mysteriously gone but the truth in the analogy is that with a capitalist american supported regime in power (as per usual prior to Chavez) the situation didn't improve, year after year, and the leaves kept falling. But then again the article's "progressive" author probably doesn't give a damn what the real alternatives for the Venezuelan people are, they're too busy scoring points.
Sounds like you subscribe too much to Chavez's own "special" version of Venenzeulan history. Nothing was done by the previous administration (Caldera, 1994-1999), for example, because it presided over a period of terribly low oil prices, and the government had little in the way of spending money. Pretty much every government there has fallen in and out of favour with the electorate depending on the price of oil - the same will likely happen to Chavez (regardless of how the infinte re-election referendum goes in a couple of weeks) if this recession remains through to 2012.
But there have been other Chavez's in the country's history - he is by no means unique. Perez (coincidentaly, the guy Chavez tried to overthrow in a military coup in 1992) also had plenty of money to throw around in the late 1970's, nationalising industries and funding welfare programs (though I suppose you would just dismiss his government as another "capitalist american [sic] supported regime [sic]"). Lot of good it did when the bottom fell out of the price in the 1980's and the country had nothing to show for it.
I'll admit I'm no expert on Venezuelan history but a quick read on Perez shows that during his first term which you've refered to Venezuelan agricultural production was falling and the national debt was rising quickly; as far as I know Chavez has improved agricultural production and lowered the national debt. This is to say nothing of the distribution of the oil wealth which appears to be much more equitable this time.
You're correct that Chavez couldn't claim to be the only leader in Venezuelan history to be even semi-successful however he could certainly claim to be the only potential leader today who is concerned for the wellfare of the majority of Venezuelans.
PS: Why so [sic]?
That's true. Venezuela's elite have had a special relationship with the US for many years. They skimmed a percentage of the oil wealth for a long time and salted it away in bank accounts, spent wildly on mansions, and pretty much considered themselves part of the international creme de la creme. All was good with the US as long as the cheap oil flowed north. Then, democracy came to Venezuela.
Canada's north, for example, is strewn with derelict mining towns that once boomed according to boom-bust cycles of capitalism and mineral prices. Oligarchs from the US and Canada extracted the wealth and always left town with the loot while Canadian workers were stuck to live in the dying ghost towns. It's all too common a story for Canadians.
A very old Chinese proverb states that, when money arrives, all is green, bustle, and abundance. And when it leaves, all is trampled down, barren, and bare.
You thoroughly miss my point.
It's not just that other leaders such as Perez have thrown money around during times of high oil prices, just like Chavez has, and cut poverty. It's that they had no plan for when oil prices fell, also just like Chavez. Once the '70's oil boom was over in the '80's things went back to how they were prior, and none of the gains in reducing poverty stuck.
Chavez's poverty-fighting efforts - largely succesful but dependant entirely on high oil prices - are unsustainable and appear destined for the same fate.
And your point about agriculture is a little off - high inflation (30% these days) has more or less strangled any progress in that field.
The Guardian - Hurricane still swirling as oil price fall casts cloud on anniversary
(a very well balanced account of many of Chavez's accomplishments over the past 10 years, as well as some of the problems that I've mentioned here)
[snip]
Chavez's poverty-fighting efforts - largely succesful but dependant entirely on high oil prices - are unsustainable and appear destined for the same fate.
Chavez is clueless as to how to create a sustainable, non-oil economy. Everything was been sunshine and roses as long as fossil-fuel prices were sky-high. But, what has he done to lay a groundwork for a sustainable economy in the long term that is not dependent on the teat of the oil spigot?
Personally, I hope he manages to stay in office long enough to experience the inevitable crash. Then, his "wonders of socialism" will be exposed for the charade they are and he and his image will be stripped naked like the clothes-less emperor that he is.
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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!
Actually I didn't, but thanks for repeating it
Then how do you explain the examples I already mentioned? Reducing foreign debt in good times is a measure to improve Venezuela's situation in difficult times right? Well Chavez has done that. Improving agricultural production to lower dependance on food imports also seems like a measure aimed a improving Venezuela's situation for the future... he's doing that too. Even if you don't think he's succeeding he's clearly trying and trying more than his predecesors and certainly far more than the opposition would... Can you and Sven give any example of what he should do differently? That would make it easier to compare Chavez to whatever standard you're applying, as comparing him to other leaders of Venezuela or other leaders of similar nations or opposition leaders in Venezuela all demonstrate that he's doing better than others at the least, although I'll certainly admit he isn't perfect.
Source? Under Perez agricultural imports accounted over 80% of the food consumed by Venezuelans, now that figure is between 60-65% as far as I know... I could certainly be wrong though and I'll happily believe your claims if you can give me a source that says otherwise... but so far you haven't done much of that, what-do-you-call-it... backing up your argument with facts? Afterall you're the one with a point to prove right?
It was to be found in the very article I linked. In case you didn't read it:
California, the eighth largest economy in the world, is broke!
A_J: That article didn't provide any figures re: agriculture or the national debt. Please try again.
If Venezuela can't even pump oil out of the ground, I can't imagine the government creating a diverse post-oil economy over the next twenty years that will even begin to fill the gap left by oil revenue.
Life is going to really suck in Venezuela in the post-oil world.
Well, there are two things that you are overlooking here.
First of all, you are right about oil production being down. At most it's down about 20%. But the revenues that the government receives are up substantially. It's like tripling the price of a product, and then lamenting that sales are down 20%.
Second of all, you don't seem to realize that Chavez is doing all he can to diversify Venezuela and make it less dependent on foreign money. In addition to the schools and hospitals, they are also building numerous factories in Venezuela to produce everything from food to batteries to bicycles. Chavez is using the windfall oil profits to make Venezuela less dependent on oil.
It's really quite sad the way that the Western nations along with their misguided followers and self-interested hedonists, villainize Chavez as if he is the worst tyrant in the history of Latin America. While they pretend it's to do with democracy and human rights - it's really about the fact that the Western nations can't take 95% of the value of their oil and minerals anymore the way that they used to. They feel entitled to the wealth and cheap labour of the Latin American people.
I don't see how that's a problem.
Key Stone in the post above provides even less in support of their glowing claims about Chavez's marvelous bicycle and battery factories.
Anyway, enough snark. If you're interested in the national debt:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28997281/
-Lowered by another $150M in 2008.
-Some $43B outstanding.
Agriculture? I don't know. You tell me how it's doing under 30% inflation and price controls.
Anyway, enough snark. If you're interested in the national debt:
I know, we're still up around $500B after decades of pumping oil and gas and massive amounts of hydro to the US. It's ridiculous
30%? The rich in Venezuela wont like it all. The poor have new guarantees for food and housing, education etc. So they wont mind if the rich take a hit on wealth or even wage a capital strike. Only thing left for the CIA is another attempted military coup. Times are tough for imperialism all'a way around
Speak of the devil:
Fax from the CIA's "Office of Transnational Issues" to the opposition re: "Plan Angostura" leaked.
http://www.aporrea.org/tiburon/n127493.html
Chavez is a clown.
From the Washington Post:
To be sure, Chávez has some genuine support. He has halved the rate of extreme poverty in a country that has long been badly run and cursed by the popular irresponsibility common to so many oil countries. With oil largess, Chávez built schools and hospitals for the poor and led the country in a consumption boom. But crime and corruption boomed, too, and he built nothing economically sustainable.
As Christopher Sabatini of the Americas Society in New York says: "The global economy is passing Chávez by, and sadly for him and all the leftists who saw in him an antidote to globalization, their Bolivarian dreams are about to end with the collapse of the one source of their power: oil."
Inflation in Venezuela is running at 31 percent, by far the highest in Latin America, and is expected to hit 45 percent this year. The official exchange rate is 2.15 bolivares to the dollar, but the black market is at more than 5 bolivares, a gap so large that the government will have no choice but to devalue the currency, which will cause local prices to rise still more. The government has enough reserves for the next year to continue subsidizing food prices, but that has caused food shortages. And the government is so far behind on payments to oil contractors that many have stopped working, cutting back production from the goose that lays the golden eggs. Oil accounts for 95 percent of Venezuela's exports.
Chavez has done something that any moron could do: Spend oil wealth. What he has not done is create a sustainable and diverse economy. And, because he is so utterly dependent on oil, he will likely die (politically) because the effortless fountain of petro-cash is not going to be resurging any time soon (to be fair, generating petro-cash is not entirely "effortless" but he and his incompetent government have clearly been unable to muster the necessary effort to prevent a massive decline in oil production).
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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!
and you continue to do what any moron can do post propaganda from right-wing sources.Neither you or your sources have the slightest credibility.
Chavez has actually invested resource wealth in ways that benefit the majority of the Venezuelan population in the areas of education, health and infrastructure. This is his greatest crime in the eyes of neo-liberals god forbid the citizens of other countries start expecting the government to act in their interests instead of the interests of the elite. In Venezuela previously resource wealth went to foreign oil companies and the oligarchy. If you knew anything about the history of colonization you would know that this is the nature of colonized countries to be forced offer up resources to foreign interests providing the local elite gets their cut. Chavez gets blamed for being unable to undue the process of 400 years of colonization in ten years.
American are so keen to criticize Chavez should examine the disaster of their own economy and the governments response of giving public money to the economic elite.
Yeah but that's not going to happen. Most Americans buy into all the anti-Chavez propaganda. It does amazing things for their corrupt thieving government. leave the masses believing the US economic policies are the best in the world and any attempt to better them as Chavez has is anti-American. Essentially the US media likes to keep Americans in the dark about almost everything progressive. A good example is free health care. Why is it the US is still the only Western "democracy" to still believe the crap, despite mounds and mounds of evidence to the contrary re: free health care? Because the powerful lobbies don't want the American people thinking there may be a better way. Best to keep them chanting "Rah Rah USA" then to actually get them thinking of a) their own responsibility towards the world (aka a just and humane one) and b) keep them in a perpetual state of entitlement so they don't go rocking the boat.
It amazes me that supposedly smart people buy into this anti-Chavez, anti-health care crap thrown at them from "reputable" sources like the Washington Post or CNN.
Chavez is a clown.
No, Harper and Uribe are clowns. Chavez spends oil wealth on the people, and fat-cats in the US and Venezuela don't like that. In their greedy little minds, the cream is supposed to go to them not the poor.
Obama is looking more and more to be a kind of clown, Sven. They needed a human face for their rightwing agenda. Obama appears more and more to represent continuity of the criminal Bush family-Clinton regime. Real change is not possible in a plutocracy.
What, my dear Sven, would YOU have had Chavez do? You know he couldn't have embraced globalization and still carried out ANY progressive policies. What is so "sustainable" about living at the mercy of global capital, as you would have had Venezuela do?
Finally, did you ever condemn the pre-Chavez government for slaughtering trade unionists in the streets of Caracas? That's mainly the stuff that "free trade" brings: profits for the few, violent death for the many.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________ Our Demands Most Moderate are/ We Only Want The World! -James Connolly
What, my dear Sven, would YOU have had Chavez do? You know he couldn't have embraced globalization and still carried out ANY progressive policies. What is so "sustainable" about living at the mercy of global capital, as you would have had Venezuela do?
About 93% of Venezuela's exports are composed of oil sales (which is an astonishing dependence on a single source of income). If Chavez was a prayin' kind of a guy, I'm sure he'd be fervently (and desperately) praying for a resurgence in the price of oil (from what I've read, he needs oil to be at least $80/barrel to avoid a severe economic contraction). But, oil is down to about $34.50/barrel (today) and I suspect that it's going to be quite a while before we see $80/barrel oil again. And, the longer oil prices remain below $80/barrel—and the longer his oil production continues to decrease (and thus exacerbate the effects of low oil prices)—the greater the likelihood that he'll get his ass kicked out of power.
When the petro-dollars were freely flowing and Venezuela was awash in cash, instead of using those petro-dollars to create a diverse industry, he basically just handed out cash and services to his supporters. That only works so long as there is a huge flow of petro-dollars. If the flow of petro-dollar turns into a trickle, he's screwed because he has no alternatives in place to generate cash to pay for all of the generous social programs he’s created.
Rather than simply make income transfer payments from one pocket to another (which any idiot can do), he could have taken a large portion of the petro-dollars (when they were available) and used that cash to developed non-petro-based industry (but that would have actually taken effort and ingenuity—something that governments are uniquely incapable of doing). As a result, because he didn’t previously take advantage of the massive flow of petro-dollars when they were available, he is now left himself hostage and vulnerable to low oil prices.
It's going to be entertaining to watch him implode.
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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!
I suppose there's a bright side to the success of the referendum: when Chavez eventually leaves office it won't be because of arbitrary term limits, but because the Venezuelan people finally rejected him and his empty promises.
I suppose there's a bright side to the success of the referendum: when Chavez eventually leaves office it won't be because of arbitrary term limits, but because the Venezuelan people finally rejected him and his empty promises.
That’s why I was pleased to see the arbitrary limit on his term of office eliminated yesterday.
If he had been barred from seeking re-election indefinitely, then people could claim: “If only Dearest Chavez was still in power, everything would be roses and sweet cream.” Now, he can face voters indefinitely and, if free and fair elections continue, he’ll get booted sooner or later (sooner if oil prices remain low for the foreseeable future or later when the inevitable shift away from fossil fuels occurs). Unfortunately for him, he has put all of his eggs in a basket that is entirely dependent upon oil.
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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!
Sven, the only ones hurting in Venezuela are the rich. Colombia and the US can continue with illegal funding of the political opposition in Venezuela, but they realize their only chance in the foreseeable future is another attempted military coup.
Sven, the only ones hurting in Venezuela are the rich. Colombia and the US can continue with illegal funding of the political opposition in Venezuela, but they realize their only chance in the foreseeable future is another attempted military coup.
What, only "the rich" have to eat? Most of Venezuela's food is imported and Venezuela pays for those imports with petro-dollars.
Face it, the socialist "miracle" of Venezuela is nothing but a mirage. It is, essentially, entirely dependent upon the oil purchases by that evil über capitalist country, America, which is the only country that buys Venezuelan oil at full market prices. Without those oil purchases, Venezuela's economy would non-existent and the emperor will ultimately be shown to have no pants.
Venezuela will follow the same path as the oil-rich Mideast countries will follow: Economic oblivion when the oil teat runs dry. Of course, they could avoid that by fostering industry—but I don't see that happening under Dearest Chavez's regime.
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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!
No doubt global recession will affect Venezuela. But this is a recurring failure of global capitalism. It's time for more socialism in Latin America. Latin America's elite ruling class will be hung out to dry in the coming years with the vicious empire over-extended in the ME and Central Asia. Capitalism is failing humanity, and it's time for world-wide democracy.
"When the petro-dollars were freely flowing and Venezuela was awash in cash, instead of using those petro-dollars to create a diverse industry, he basically just handed out cash and services to his supporters. That only works so long as there is a huge flow of petro-dollars. If the flow of petro-dollar turns into a trickle, he's screwed because he has no alternatives in place to generate cash to pay for all of the generous social programs he’s created."
Venezuela invested in the education, health and housing of its citizens, this may be hard to believe but to many having an educated and healthy populace is actually considered an investment that has substantial return. You make it sound like Chavez is Oprah handing out cars to her veiwers.
Venezuela has also seen significant gains in manufacturing and increased productivity in the agricultural sector: before Chavez much of the agricultural land was held in the hands of a few and was unused. The oligarchy was happy growing rich from oil money. One of the many things you don't seem to understand is that the Bolivarian government is actually reversing the policies of previous governments that depended solely on oil. This of course takes time and is in process. It's not like a country decides one day to develop a high tech sector and magically ten years later they are world leaders. The previous governments following neo-liberal policies created the dependence on oil exports and this government is actually working with that challenge. Having a healthy and educated populace is one way of meeting that challenge.
It is interesting that you are gloating about the demise of the Venezuelans at a time when people in the U.S. are losing their homes and jobs at an astronomical rate. Of course you are fantasizing about a magical recovery.
One of the many things you don't seem to understand is that the Bolivarian government is actually reversing the policies of previous governments that depended solely on oil. This of course takes time and is in process. It's not like a country decides one day to develop a high tech sector and magically ten years later they are world leaders.
I wouldn't expect Venezuela to be the world leader in anything, necessarily. But, after ten years of Chavez rule, one would expect that Venezuela, if it truly was making substantive steps towards a diversified economy, wouldn't still be dependent upon oil for 93% of its income.
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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!
Patrick Irelan on Venezuela's socialism:
“From 1998-2006, infant mortality has fallen by more than one-third. The number of primary care physicians in the public sector increased 12-fold from 1999-2007, providing health care to millions of Venezuelans who previously did not have access.”
“There have been substantial gains in education, especially higher education, where gross enrollment rates more than doubled from 1999-2000 to 2007-2008.”
“The labor market also improved substantially over the last decade, with unemployment dropping from 11.3 percent to 7.8 percent. During the current expansion it has fallen by more than half. Other labor market indicators also show substantial gains.” . .
Oil prices have gone up and down in the past and will continue to do so in the future. In addition, the Venezuelan economy is not entirely dependent on oil. Mining, manufacturing, agriculture, and other enterprises also contribute to economic growth.
Critics also blame the country’s inflation on Chávez. Inflation presently hovers at around 30 percent per year. But the CEPR study points out that this figure is about the same as it was 10 years ago when Chávez was first elected.
All those thirdworld capitalist shitholes in Latin America need socialism
All those thirdworld capitalist shitholes in Latin America need socialism
Unfortunately for them, converting to Venezuelan-style socialism (socialism dependent almost entirely on the teat of an oil spigot) isn't an option.
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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!
All those thirdworld capitalist shitholes in Latin America need socialism
Unfortunately for them, converting to Venezuelan-style socialism (socialism dependent almost entirely on the teat of an oil spigot) isn't an option.
Well they surely wont be following the neoliberal model for financialization and hollowing out the real economy in order that a parasitic banking cabal is able to extract compound interest from the sweat, blood and tears of the workers. Our own capitalist countries now resorting to perverted upside-down socialism wont be able to re-attain the false bubble wealth of the recent past. The promise of post-cold war era capitalism was a cruel illusion for billions of people. Predatory capitalism, like feudalism, was an extractive economic process more than it ever was productive.
Venezuela: A New Phase and Greater Dangers - Which Way Forward?
http://www.socialistalternative.org/news/article11.php?id=1204
"The struggle in Venezuela has passed through different phases and twists and turns in the situation. Now it has entered a new and critical phase...There is a qualitative change underway which raises the spectre of counter revolution. A counter revolution, however, which is, in part, being driven from within the Chavista movement itself.."
All those thirdworld capitalist shitholes in Latin America need socialism
Unfortunately for them, converting to Venezuelan-style socialism (socialism dependent almost entirely on the teat of an oil spigot) isn't an option.
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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!
May I remind you, Sven, that none of the nonsocialist governments that ruled Venezuela ever did anything to diversify that country's economy? And at this point even YOU wouldn't dare argue that it would be better to go on making developing countries starve their own people by using all arable land for export crops.
The rich had their chance, Sven. They failed everyone but themselves. And, since that failure will eventually lead to THEIR doom as well, they failed themselves in the end anyway.