Charlottesville Virginia :Car Plows Into Anti-Fascist Protesters

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lagatta4

Well, there have always been racists, but they have become very emboldened by people from Trump to Le Pen. Ernst Zündel has died, but there is a new crop of outright and "proud" Nazis...

I'm thinking about the La Meute parade in Québec and a much larger group of counter-demonstrators. I'm wondering if the Black Bloc could have been handled differently; not in terms of their right to demonstrate, but to prevent them from having attracted all the media attention. Though remember that Jaggi Singh was doing NOTHING violent; evidently he was just dancing around and singing. I still remember his teddy-bear catapult when we were at the Counter-summit in 2000, running in to Judy Rebick and Jaggi...

I wrote to friends in Québec City after the marches, but haven't heard back yet.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
I'm wondering if the Black Bloc could have been handled differently; not in terms of their right to demonstrate, but to prevent them from having attracted all the media attention.

As allies, why should you need to "handle" them?

Conversely, what's the part of all of this that they don't "get"?

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Thousands of San Franciscans Celebrate After Far-Right Group Cancels Rally

Thousands of people celebrated in the streets of San Francisco on Saturday after a slate of creative counterprotests and condemnation from local politicians convinced the rightwing group Patriot Prayer to cancel a rally it had planned for Saturday afternoon at Crissy Park.

The rally cancellation did not deter those who had planned citywide counterprotests from hosting their events, which included a gathering in support of "equal rights for all," a march against white supremacy, and a rally at the Civic Center—which featured a group that dressed as clowns in an effort to "spread joy, love and celebrate living in diversity."

quote:

Patriot Prayer leader Joey Gibson called off with less than 24 hours notice—the group had planned a press conference for Saturday morning at Alamo Square, which was also cancelled when city police closed down the park because the organizers lacked a permit. 

Saturday afternoon, Gibson livestreamed a statement from a hotel room before hosting an outdoor press conference, attended by local media, in the nearby city Pacifia. In the livestreamed address, Gibson vowed to "walk the streets" of San Francisco today, but he and the rally speakers appear to have remained in Pacifica.

lagatta4

Walk the streets for money, you don't care if it's wrong or it's right (Roxanne)...

Applies far more to him than the girl on the stroll in the song.

NDPP

How 'Antifa' Mirrors the 'Alt Right'  -  by Chris Hedges

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/antifa-mirrors-alt-right/

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

NDPP wrote:

How 'Antifa' Mirrors the 'Alt Right'  -  by Chris Hedges

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/antifa-mirrors-alt-right/

Sigh. SMFH

Mobo2000

Alt left / antifa thugs vs Alt right neo-nazis is going to be the media narrative for a few cycles now.   The mainstream conservative press gave everyone a week or so to freak out about Trump's remarks, and then echoed them.  Even Rex Murphy agrees, both sides are responsible for violence.    Trump is positioning himself for a big show of force, a nice ol' law and order crackdown on both sides, which will give some of his base pleasant tingles, and resonate with the mainstream middle who are getting scared by all the shouting.   Shaking your head won't make it go away.  

 

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Mobo2000 wrote:

   Shaking your head won't make it go away.  

 

Duh. Thanks for making that clear,Captain Obvious.

Mobo2000

You are welcome!

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Mobo2000 wrote:

You are welcome!

Fucking asshole.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

NDPP wrote:

How 'Antifa' Mirrors the 'Alt Right'  -  by Chris Hedges

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/antifa-mirrors-alt-right/

What a massive false equivalency.

It can be packaged any way Hedges likes but it's nothing but a right wing talking point. Right up there with 'white genocide' and Mexico will pay for the wall.

Mobo2000

Time will tell if middle America, and the 50% who didn't care to vote last time around see it as nothing more than a right wing talking point.   I think the left needs a better argument than moral relativism/false equivalency.   

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

How To Really Condemn A Nazi In 5 Minutes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8uduomLQjc

 

cco

alan smithee wrote:

What a massive false equivalency.

Hedges is fond of those (see his books on how atheists are "the new fundamentalists").

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Hedges is fond of those (see his books on how atheists are "the new fundamentalists").

Oh, is he to blame for that silliness?

I've seen that so many times -- if you don't believe in some magical superhero who lives in the sky then you're exactly the same as someone who does believe in a magical superhero who lives in the sky.

Funny that people who DON'T believe in the tooth fairy aren't lumped in with people -- most of them six years old -- who DO believe in the tooth fairy.

cco

I don't know that he's to blame – he certainly didn't invent the equivalency, though he's jumped aboard the train to make some money. I've always found it amusing that the worst insult religious types can make against atheists is that atheism is a religion. If it can be brought down to their level, if it's just another religion, then their own religions can't be judged. Not being a member of their religion is just another religion, you see. The wrong one, of course.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture
alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Hmm.. I guess there really are bad people on both sides.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hg6NHuHbaqk

It just so happens antifa isn't one of those sides.

Mobo2000

The video linked at post 314 is almost unwatchable to me.   What is persuasive or effective in this?  

Moral equivalence / false equivalency is a very loaded term that largely functions as propoganda.    I am reminded of all the times this term made it's appearance in the past, in defence of one or another imperial adventure.  

Was opposing the war in Iraq drawing a moral equivalency between the George Bush and Saddam Hussein?    Was opposing the cold war drawing a moral equivalency between the Soviet Union and the United States?   Or, as Sam Harris charges, are critics of the invasion of Afghanistan and American tactics there drawing a moral equivalence between the US military and terrorists?

Here's Jeane Kirkpatrick arguing there is no moral equivalence between the US and the Soviet Union:

https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/the-myth-of-moral-equivalence/

In recent times it seems that saying "there is no moral equivalence" between X and Y is saying, simply, X good and Y bad.     It then erases any possibility of critizing tactics or moral obligations of the part of the good party because of the bad party's badness.   

As this relates to antifa/neo-nazi's.   I would like to find a space to discuss how best to combat the rise of neo-nazis and the rise of violent protest in the US.   What can we do as individuals, what should the media be doing, and what can we do collectively, etc.   I see charges of "moral equivalence"  as preventing that discussion.  

Also they are reductive.   The Chris Hedges article had a lot to say.   Chomsky has recently critized antifa:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/noam-chomsky-antifa-is-a-major-gift-to...

...and I'm not sure I agree, but I'd like to be able to talk about it without hearing "false equivalency" and antifa good/nazi bad over and over again.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Mobo2000 wrote:

The video linked at post 314 is almost unwatchable to me.   What is persuasive or effective in this?  

Moral equivalence / false equivalency is a very loaded term that largely functions as propoganda.    I am reminded of all the times this term made it's appearance in the past, in defence of one or another imperial adventure.  

Was opposing the war in Iraq drawing a moral equivalency between the George Bush and Saddam Hussein?    Was opposing the cold war drawing a moral equivalency between the Soviet Union and the United States?   Or, as Sam Harris charges, are critics of the invasion of Afghanistan and American tactics there drawing a moral equivalence between the US military and terrorists?

Here's Jeane Kirkpatrick arguing there is no moral equivalence between the US and the Soviet Union:

https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/the-myth-of-moral-equivalence/

In recent times it seems that saying "there is no moral equivalence" between X and Y is saying, simply, X good and Y bad.     It then erases any possibility of critizing tactics or moral obligations of the part of the good party because of the bad party's badness.   

As this relates to antifa/neo-nazi's.   I would like to find a space to discuss how best to combat the rise of neo-nazis and the rise of violent protest in the US.   What can we do as individuals, what should the media be doing, and what can we do collectively, etc.   I see charges of "moral equivalence"  as preventing that discussion.  

Also they are reductive.   The Chris Hedges article had a lot to say.   Chomsky has recently critized antifa:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/noam-chomsky-antifa-is-a-major-gift-to...

...and I'm not sure I agree, but I'd like to be able to talk about it without hearing "false equivalency" and antifa good/nazi bad over and over again.

Simply put,if you're a nazi you ARE bad and if you find nazis abhorrent and protest them, you are good,much better people,much higher moral quality.

As you want to argue that nazis are not or may not be bad and those who oppose them are morally equivalent says a lot about your character.

Use that bullshit argument on Rebel's comment threads and spare us this nazi sympathizing crap.

 

NDPP

Trump's Antifa Moment: Police Repression, Non-Violence and Movement Building on the Left

https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/08/28/trumps-antifa-moment-police-repr...

"Antifa's revolution against the American police state and the reactionary right was over before it began. The group has no mass support base and its significance is primarily symbolic..."

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

NDPP wrote:

Trump's Antifa Moment: Police Repression, Non-Violence and Movement Building on the Left

https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/08/28/trumps-antifa-moment-police-repr...

"Antifa's revolution against the American police state and the reactionary right was over before it began. The group has no mass support base and its significance is primarily symbolic..."

Clearly we live in an amoral,bigoted,racist and xenophobic society. Let's all throw our hands in the air and give up. I got some drinkin' to do anyway. Those poor nazis,those heroic police forces and that fine upstanding President. What's the use in speaking out,right? Right.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

I don't agree with a lot of what Olbermann says. He's way too pro-Clinton but I think he's making alot of sense in this commentary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjGKJz1Kajw

Mobo2000

Alan:   The point I'm trying to make is very simple, obvious and not at all original.   You will find it said by all sorts of people on the left.   Much more articulate presentations of it have been posted here already.   That you interpret it as support for or defending neo-nazis is your own issue, and I urge you to think it through.  

For an action to be moral we have to consider it's effects.   Saying nazis are bad is not a moral action, it's a (very obvious, uncontroversial) value statement.    We all agree neo-nazis are bad.   The question is what to do? 

If the effect of counterprotesting neo-nazis is less neo-nazis and a more tolerant just society, than counterprotesting neo-nazis is the moral thing to do.   If the effect of counterprotesting neo-nazi's is greater repression by the state, a backlash by the disinterested middle class, and more neo-nazis, then counterprotesting is not the moral thing to do.    

Social change comes about through analysis of what is happening, and through collective action, and agreement on tactics.   Good people can choose bad tactics.

Mobo2000

""Clearly we live in an amoral,bigoted,racist and xenophobic society. Let's all throw our hands in the air and give up. I got some drinkin' to do anyway. Those poor nazis,those heroic police forces and that fine upstanding President. What's the use in speaking out,right? Right."

 I feel you here.   It is depressing and not at all clear to me what can be done/what should be done, or even what is actually happening.   I get the anger and that people want to do or say SOMETHING, to express themselves regardless of the effect.   

I have no advice for antifa, I'm barely at the stage where I can give advice to myself.   I have a lot of worries, half-thoughts and partial theories, and I'd like to get to a stage where we can think out loud here without being misinterpreted or adding to the anger people already feel.    So to that end, truce?      You are not my enemy, and I hope we can talk productively in the future.

 

 

 

 

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

I'd rather productive discussion over arguing or having to defend everything I say everyday. So peace to you.

The world is circling the drain and the tidy bowl man in this is Donald Trump. Can't we at least agree that he's the cancer in the world right now?

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

2 tweets from Trump. The second one clearly from watching State tevision today. 2 different sides as per usual.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Mobo2000

We can agree on that!   Peace to you as well.

voice of the damned

Globalresearch.ca is saying that the anti-racist activism in Charlottesville and elsewhere is part of a "race war and civil war being incited by the US political establishment", and citing Ben Carson(probably the farthest right candidate from the last GOP primaries) as a source on how Obama and the Clintons are puppets of Saul Alinsky... 

Just as the global “war on terrorism” is a criminality and treason disguised as “freedom fighting” and “the defense of liberty”, this war against Trump, labelled as the “new Hitler”, is part of an unfolding domestic terror operation, which ironically utilizes the propaganda techniques of Hitler and the Third Reich (Goebbels), not to mention the anarchist playbook of Saul Alinsky (and, by extension, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, both of whom are Alinsky disciples). (See  also Ben Carson quoted in the Washington Post,  “Hillary Clinton, Saul Alinsky and Lucifer, explained”, July 20, 2015)

Apparently anarchists and liberals are bad, too. And in collusion with the police, who stood by while the anti-racists in Charlottesville "instigated the violence".  

I was gonna preface this post with something like "Jesus H. Christ, what a gong show that site has become", but that would be feigning a surprise that I just don't have. 

http://tinyurl.com/y74ol54e

 

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

The Red Cross Won't Save Houston. Texas Residents Are Launching Community Relief Efforts Instead

quote:

SCOTT CROW: Yeah. So, a lot of people that were demonized in the media the last couple of weeks—anti-fascists, antifa, or antifa, as it’s often called—are the same people who are now on the ground building relief all across Houston and the Gulf Coast in areas that are not even being talked about. There’s multiple distribution centers that are being set up by multiple coalitions of groups—Black Lives Matter, antifa and then radicals of various stripes—and, again, working in conjunction with people that might even be politically opposed to them outside of a disaster area. Disasters reveal the commonalities of humanity more than anything. And since climate change, man-made climate change, is real, and coastal communities are under so much pressure to do this, this is going to become more and more common, and we’re going to need more decentralized disaster relief efforts to happen. And I think we need to think about that as people in our communities to begin to build resilience now for the next disaster, whether it’s economic, political, ecological or war.

NDPP

Boston Protest of White Supremacy and Fascism Reveal Deep Contradictions of the Trump Era   -   by Danny Haiphong

https://blackagendareport.com/boston-protest-white-supremacy-and-fascism...

"To fight white supremacist ideas and not the total structure of the white supremacist system of imperialism places the left in dangerous territory. Such activity obscures the actual levers of power that make the material conditions for racist ideas possible..."

Mobo2000

Here's an antifa tactic I can definitely get behind :

"In Knoxville (Tennessee), the Vanguard group of Nazis tried to rally for their fetid ideas of white power. They were met by the Anti-Racist Action’s clown bloc. When the Nazis chanted “white power”, the clowns asked “white flour?”. They danced around throwing flour in the air, disrupting the Nazi sternness with calculated fun. When the Nazis repeated their slogan, the clowns changed their question to “white flower?” and danced around throwing white flowers in the air. “White Power”, the Nazis chanted in desperation. The women among the clowns now said “We understand” and unveiled new signs that read “WIFE power”. They skipped about chanting “wife power” as the leader of the Nazis, Alex Linder, was arrested for trying to attack them."

https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/09/01/standing-up-to-nazism/

NDPP

KKK Marchmusic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZdj_7dTfCs

"This is what stupid looks like."

NDPP

"Well, well, well. If you thought Antifa was a pathetically obvious Russian plot you were right. Antifa Dot Com registered in Russia."

It must be true. It's Louise Mensch, Russophrenic babblers  swear by her.  

https://twitter.com/LouiseMensch/status/903783537006059524

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Did she mean "antifa.ru"?  It would make sense to register that with a Russian registrar.

NDPP

I wouldn't know. Louise Mensch doesn't make sense to me.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

These Dockworkers Just Showed the Labor Movement How to Shut Down Fascists

What role should the labor movement play in beating back the resurgence of fascism? Resistance, while a powerful concept, is far too vague. Local 10, the San Francisco Bay Area branch of the International Longshore and Warehouse Union (ILWU)—and perhaps the most radical union in the United States—demonstrates what can be done.

This past week, the San Francisco Bay Area—long a center of unionism, social justice movements and radicalism—took center stage. Patriot Prayer is a right-wing organization with a demonstrated history of inciting racist violence, most obviously in Portland, Ore., while ironically asserting peaceful intentions. The far-right group declared it would rally in San Francisco on Saturday.

Local 10 took a lead role in organizing counter-protests that contributed to the San Francisco event being canceled the day ahead of its scheduled event. The union’s role in this wave of popular mobilizations demands consideration.

At its August 17 meeting, Local 10 passed a “Motion to Stop the Fascists in San Francisco,” which laid out members’ opposition to the rally and intention to organize. This resolution enumerated the union’s justifications, starting with Donald Trump’s “whitewashing this violent, deadly fascist and racist attack [in Charlottesville] saying ‘both sides are to blame,’ and his attacking anti-racists for opposing Confederate statues that honor slavery adds fuel to the fire of racist violence.”.....

NorthReport

Good, but regardless that must have been a difficult decision for him!

Robert E. Lee descendant leaves his church after backlash over VMAs speech

Robert Lee IV has announced he is leaving his church over 'hurtful' reaction to his speech against white supremacy at the 2017 MTV Video Music Awards.

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017/09/05/robert-e-lee-descendent-le...

josh

Richard Spencer in FL: “the most important...revolutionary ethno-state, the one that I turn to for guidance...the Jewish state of Israel.”

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