China #3

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MegB
China #3

Continued from here.

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WWWTT

@progressive17 and Sean in Ottawa

I made these comments for good solid reasons! I've seen with my own eyes, heard with my own ears in mainland China that the western corporate media has demonized communist China!

Progressive's last comment is proof!

I welcome good solid debate. But if posters here are just going to regurgetate corporate media myths and phantom fears then this is going to get old real fast.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

If the so-called MSM says that sugary sodas are unhealthy, and I say that sugary sodas are unhealthy, am I just "parroting the MSM"?

We get that you dig all things Chinese, but what it maybe Chinese Communism has its problems?

voice of the damned

 I've seen with my own eyes, heard with my own ears in mainland China that the western corporate media has demonized communist China!

So, the fact that lots of people in mainland China think they're getting a raw deal from the western media proves that that is true?

I'm not saying it's entirely false, but I think you need to come up with a better argument than "Lots of people in China believe it." In general, public opinion in any country tends to lean towards thinking that negative criticism from outsiders must be false.

How many Brits do you think will say that the Argentinian media is correct about the ownership of the Falkland Islands? And how many Argentinians will say the British media is correct?  

voice of the damned

 edit, double post

Sean in Ottawa

WWWTT wrote:

@progressive17 and Sean in Ottawa

I made these comments for good solid reasons! I've seen with my own eyes, heard with my own ears in mainland China that the western corporate media has demonized communist China!

Progressive's last comment is proof!

I welcome good solid debate. But if posters here are just going to regurgetate corporate media myths and phantom fears then this is going to get old real fast.

This place is not about believing mainstream propaganda here or anywhere else, China included.

To limit yourself to opinions formed by those informed only by mainstream (mostly government owned) media in China is no better than informing yourself based on the opinions of a wide number of media from outside China.

WWWTT

Sorry I must clarify something before moving forward. From my exchange with Chinese nationals in China, they for the most part do not care for western media let alone western corporate media demonization of Chinese Communist Party or any of its leaders. Many people here in the west feel that Chinese people have less rights than their counterparts in the west( you and me). You actually have to go to China on several at least and see for yourself. After many exchanges, it is very clear that corporate western media is relentless in its demonization! Chinese nationals actually enjoy greater rights and freedoms!

WWWTT

Mr. Magoo wrote:

If the so-called MSM says that sugary sodas are unhealthy, and I say that sugary sodas are unhealthy, am I just "parroting the MSM"?

We get that you dig all things Chinese, but what it maybe Chinese Communism has its problems?

straight back to food hey ok good point. 

70ish years ago around 20 million people died in China at the hands of the Japanese. Followed by a 4 year revolution. Than another 3 year war in Korea. Soon followed by a much longer and extensive war on its southern border in Vietnam. And after the western imperialism forces realized China is tough as fuckin nails and is only going to kick everyone’s ass, everyone decides to leave them alone. And in that short time of peace and rebuilding, China has now become a world leader in green energy socialism peace and diplomacy. 

Sure they have problems, I doubt any single political party can make everyone happy. No wait actually I know this for a fact! And so do you! Even if the communist party did make everyone happy, there would still be people complaining because some people have to complain. 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
And in that short time of peace and rebuilding, China has now become a world leader in green energy socialism peace and diplomacy.

I won't even ask you to defend all three of these.  Just start with how China is edumacating us all on green energy.

WWWTT

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

WWWTT wrote:

@progressive17 and Sean in Ottawa

I made these comments for good solid reasons! I've seen with my own eyes, heard with my own ears in mainland China that the western corporate media has demonized communist China!

Progressive's last comment is proof!

I welcome good solid debate. But if posters here are just going to regurgetate corporate media myths and phantom fears then this is going to get old real fast.

This place is not about believing mainstream propaganda here or anywhere else, China included.

To limit yourself to opinions formed by those informed only by mainstream (mostly government owned) media in China is no better than informing yourself based on the opinions of a wide number of media from outside China.

how do you know Chinese media is just as bad as western? And what makes you think that people in China follow state media similarly as their western counterparts? Now we both know babble/rabble is a western exemption to the rule but do you know who the exemptions are in China? 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
how do you know Chinese media is just as bad as western?

For what specific reason should SiO assume they're not?

HINT:  "Because they're not western" is not a meaningful answer.

WWWTT

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
And in that short time of peace and rebuilding, China has now become a world leader in green energy socialism peace and diplomacy.

I won't even ask you to defend all three of these.  Just start with how China is edumacating us all on green energy.

im on the iPhone now and my son has the laptop so for now I can’t provide links

http://thecountriesof.com/renewable-energy-production-by-country/

hey look at that I figured it out!

WWWTT

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
how do you know Chinese media is just as bad as western?

For what specific reason should SiO assume they're not?

HINT:  "Because they're not western" is not a meaningful answer.

ya you lost me here a bit MrMagoo. 

But as far as comparing Chinese state media compared to western, the assumption SiO made was that they were equally as bad. Kind of a shallow analysis short on detail and or examples. 

What I did point out earlier was that ndpp and North report were posting links from western corporate media(I may be a little confused here sorry bro) and I cautioned. 

Sean in Ottawa

WWWTT wrote:

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
And in that short time of peace and rebuilding, China has now become a world leader in green energy socialism peace and diplomacy.

I won't even ask you to defend all three of these.  Just start with how China is edumacating us all on green energy.

im on the iPhone now and my son has the laptop so for now I can’t provide links

http://thecountriesof.com/renewable-energy-production-by-country/

hey look at that I figured it out!

Hey this is a perfect example of why others need to be able to contribute. China has the biggest population in the world and the biggest manufacturing. I don't know why you would suggest that them having the biggest raw output woud be a shock or that incredible an achievement. Leaving scale and percentage out creaetes meaningless figures:

https://www.ecowatch.com/5-countries-leading-the-way-toward-100-renewabl...

So many countries could get to 0 net carbon, produce 100% of their energy and by your figures you woudl say they are behind China.

This is why being skeptical and showing an ability to analyse data is as valuable as bringing data.

Also China produces -- at the order of other countries renewable energy equipment in part because it is a manufacturer.

Now don't get me wrong China is doing great things in this area and making significant progress. Part of the reason is geography (The Gobi Dessert sources huge amounts of dust that mixed with poluttion makes a city more vulnerable to pollution). Part is the volume of population. But China still burns coal. It has a large population and is struggling with its energy needs. Every country has unique advantages and challenges. It is nothing but propaganda to suggest there is an absolute objective measure.

A person so desiring to promote a country as the greatest leads me not to trust their analysis very much.

Sean in Ottawa

WWWTT wrote:

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
how do you know Chinese media is just as bad as western?

For what specific reason should SiO assume they're not?

HINT:  "Because they're not western" is not a meaningful answer.

ya you lost me here a bit MrMagoo. 

But as far as comparing Chinese state media compared to western, the assumption SiO made was that they were equally as bad. Kind of a shallow analysis short on detail and or examples. 

What I did point out earlier was that ndpp and North report were posting links from western corporate media(I may be a little confused here sorry bro) and I cautioned. 

You read poorly. I said neither one could or should be trusted. I was also being kind.

China has far greater state involvement in terms of allowing what is available or not as far as dissenting opinions.

China has a different culture when it comes to the value of opinions and some of this is related to history. Freedom of opinion and expression is not ranked as highly as it is in some other places. Stability and economic production rank higher in China than in some other countries. This is not a criticism -- it is a fact that is directly related to history. China faced dangersous instability to civil war from prior to the 1912 revolution to 1949. It has faced famine more than once in the last 100 years and famine and poverty is a part of its culture if not its present outlook. Avoiding instability, hunger and poverty will be rated as more important than freedom of expression by many Chinese including many I know or have known. It is understandable that it would rank stability and economics priorities ahead of expression given its history.

No, I am not Chinese but I have studied China;s history and culture, watch its politics, and have been with Chinese people for many years. I am not Chinese but I do not bring 0 awareness to the table. My knowledge comparatively is an insight as is outlook from afar which is useful. Something I think is of value to Canadians as well.

I am not against China at all. But I am a critical thinker and choose not to boost anything that I would not also criticize. China is impressive in many respects but I am wary of those who want to stifle criticism or think that the rest of the world has nothing of value to add to the analysis. Also I do not owe any group loyalty. I dislike nationalism intensely.

 

WWWTT

Ok first the renewable energy. Per capita energy consumption is the lowest in China compared to the nations you provided in your link. Reduction of energy use is actually the first and best step in reducing emissions, don’t fall for the false sense of security that using renewables is somehower better than reduction but in the case of China I would believe that their per capita consumption rate just didn’t rise as high. This can be added in calculations. And I still disagree with you! Being number 1 over all does count for something! China is there because of some big projects they took on. Again, the initiatives China has taken count for something. As well the link u provided is from 2014, now the 2017 numbers won’t be in till next year, but in the fast changing world of green energy a couple years can make a difference in some number comparisons. Definitely Europe is among the world leaders in renewable energy, my point is that China is as well clearly among the world leaders of renewables. Now I do not believe you would suggest or ever imply this but many people do not consider China to be a world leader in anything out of racism. Judging from past projects, China can easily create new initiatives and projects pushing them even further ahead of other countries, they have shown the potential numerous times. 

Another point is that the energy grids in Europe are older and as power plants need replacing it’s easier to just replace the production end with renewable alternative. In China this is not always the case. The grid itself needs to be developed and expanded making the final delivery of electricity much more expensive. And you also touch on other points we agree about

WWWTT

Ok now I’ll address the Chinese media vs wester that you touched on. And no I don’t read poorly, well sometimes yes I need to read things over, like anyone else. But from your clarification it sounds like I know what you’re getting at before. 

Good we disagree on some things and agree on others. 

NDPP

Xi Jinping Takes Full Control of China's Future

https://www.newcoldwar.org/xi-jinping-takes-full-control-of-chinas-future/

"No matter how you measure it, no matter what questions you ask, the results always indicate that the vast majority of people are truly satisfied with the status quo."

WWWTT

@NDPP

Ya that link is a bit of this and a bit of that.

Here's another, good read!!!

http://www.npc.gov.cn/englishnpc/Constitution/node_2825.htm

voice of the damned

NDPP wrote:

Xi Jinping Takes Full Control of China's Future

https://www.newcoldwar.org/xi-jinping-takes-full-control-of-chinas-future/

"No matter how you measure it, no matter what questions you ask, the results always indicate that the vast majority of people are truly satisfied with the status quo."

The article, in its entirety, is somewhat less complimentary toward Xi and the Chinese Communist Party than that one out-of-context citation would lead you to believe.

voice of the damned

double post

NorthReport
WWWTT

I thought I mentioned to you NorthReport that it's usually wise to post another link(one not from a western corporate media outlet) for a more clearer understanding.

Unless of course your intent is to shut out other opposing views so that the western corporate media is never challenged?

Ooops sorry

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/2111062/wang-qu...

Sean in Ottawa

WWWTT wrote:

I thought I mentioned to you NorthReport that it's usually wise to post another link(one not from a western corporate media outlet) for a more clearer understanding.

Unless of course your intent is to shut out other opposing views so that the western corporate media is never challenged?

Ooops sorry

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/2111062/wang-qu...

Interesting and an odd example.

There is a very public fight going on in HK regarding freedom of the press. The press is more strongly controled in mainland China.

http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/education-community/article/2085383/p...

https://www.hkja.org.hk/site/portal/Site.aspx?id=A1-1474&lang=en-US

http://www.cjfe.org/13_groups_call_for_press_freedom_in_hong_kong_and_china

(Note how the linked content is no longer available)

The article you link to is from the South China Morning Post, a HK publication. This publication's owners (Alibaba), who bought it fairly recently, are seen to be supportive of the government. However, more than in many other publications there have been glimmers of independence. While Tsai of Alibaba denies interference, many claim self censorship and a lot of journalists critical of the government were fired, others have claimed an increase in the number of their sories that are not allowed to print.

Still it would be unreasonable to take the SCMP as representative of the journalism found in mainland China.

But let's look at the wording of the article you linked to:

"China Human Rights Lawyers Concern Group also said Wang sustained head injuries in 2014 when he refused to sign a letter denouncing lawyers being prosecuted in Jiansanjiang in Heilongjiang province."

In HK which has a measure of some press freedom they can mention the injury - but look at the lengths they take to explain it delicately as something he sustained rather than what was done to him or by whom. It is almost laughable.

Of course you would not find an article like this published on the mainland at all.

In this context, it is not unreasonable to post articles from outside China. Certainly it is largely impossible to find articles from a strictly Mainland China source on many topics.

WWWTT

Here’s a related article from the mainland. Like I said before there’s more news outlets out there that give more detailed info. 

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-01/19/c_135025122.htm

Sean in Ottawa

WWWTT wrote:

Here’s a related article from the mainland. Like I said before there’s more news outlets out there that give more detailed info. 

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-01/19/c_135025122.htm

Not the same information now is it?

WWWTT

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

WWWTT wrote:

Here’s a related article from the mainland. Like I said before there’s more news outlets out there that give more detailed info. 

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-01/19/c_135025122.htm

Not the same information now is it?

No but it is related. This case is resolved in the courts, so it sounds like there may/is  a court ordered publication ban, or the Chinese version of such. There are logical reasons. There is also the possibility of police brutality or bias in the courts. These things do happen in the west commonly as well so it's safe to assume that an equivelant occurance can happen in China.

My point is NorthReport's lack of posting links with more relevant info. And not only western corporate media blow horns all the time.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
These things do happen in the west commonly as well so it's safe to assume that an equivelant occurance can happen in China.

Wha?  Corruption in CHINA???  Say it ain't so, Cho!

NorthReport

Just pathetic to capitulate like this!

Trump's 'no questions' press conference in China slammed by former media staff

  • Ex-White House press aides denounce ‘embarrassing capitulation’
  • Sarah Sanders: ‘It was at the Chinese insistence there were no questions’

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/nov/09/trump-no-questions-press-c...

 

WWWTT

NorthReport wrote:

Just pathetic to capitulate like this!

Trump's 'no questions' press conference in China slammed by former media staff

  • Ex-White House press aides denounce ‘embarrassing capitulation’
  • Sarah Sanders: ‘It was at the Chinese insistence there were no questions’

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/nov/09/trump-no-questions-press-c...

 

And here's another classical example of NorthReport's one way biased doom and gloom perspective. So let me ask you something NorthReport, when's the world going to end? You must have harboured this thought at some time considering the corporate media links you post.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-11/08/c_136736072.htm

NDPP

Arabella Kushner Singing in Mandarin

https://twitter.com/CGTNOfficial/status/928366543712411648

Sweet...

WWWTT

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
These things do happen in the west commonly as well so it's safe to assume that an equivelant occurance can happen in China.

Wha?  Corruption in CHINA???  Say it ain't so, Cho!

Corruption? You mean like Brian Mulroney and Airbus? Cretein and sponsorship scandal? Harper and Duffy bribery? I only suggested maybe, just maybe police brutality or something like that MAY be a possibility. But you try to make it sound like Xi JinPing himself went down to the jailhouse and roughed this guy up. You ever heard of using realistic perspective MrMagoo? 

NorthReport
WWWTT

NDPP wrote:

Arabella Kushner Singing in Mandarin

https://twitter.com/CGTNOfficial/status/928366543712411648

Sweet...

Thats pretty good actually! It appears she has a good understanding of the language. There are several songs I have tried to sing and from my perspective you have to understand the meaning of all the words to remember the lyrics.   Not the greatest performance with key and pitch and her constant moving around but she clearly shows she has dedicated some serious time in learning Chinese language and culture!!! Acts like this go a long long way in diplomacy! Thanks for the share!

NorthReport
NorthReport

Trump and Xi Both "Lose-Lose"

Neither the U.S. nor China is well-served by ignoring the issues between them.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-11-09/with-big-deals-xi-and...

Sean in Ottawa

I used to know and play kang ding qing ge -- I like the song --

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fatnSjaOX_4

In my case it was with guitar... I don't think I can still do it.

NDPP

China and the US: Rational Planning And 'Lumpen' Capitalism  -  by James Petras

https://petras.lahaine.org/china-and-the-us-rational-planning/

"Mired down in gossip, idle speculation and petty denigration of its leaders, the Western press has once again failed to take account of the world-historical changes which are currently taking place in China..."

NDPP

Chinese President Orders Troops To Be 'Ready To Fight'

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/01/05/chin-j05.html

"Reflecting mounting global and internal tensions, Chinese President Xi Jinping conducted a 'mobilisation meeting' of the country's armed forces on Wednesday, ordering soldiers to fight and win wars..."

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Chinese President Orders Troops To Be 'Ready To Fight

Every Other Country's President Also Orders Troops To Be 'Ready To Fight'.

Says one military analyst, who spoke to us on condition of anonymity, "that's pretty much what troops are for, isn't it?  This is like telling firefighters to be ready to spray water on fires, like they had no idea."

NDPP

George Galloway's Sputnik: EP 209 - Rising China (and vid)

https://www.rt.com/shows/sputnik/415174-china-economy-world-dynamics/

"Though the world has been swept by a wave of Russophobia not seen since the 1950s, most sensible people believe that it's really all about China. The dollar need not always be king and the  of US hyper-power is fading fast. Prof Jude Woodward has just written a book called 'The US vs China: Asia's New Cold War."

 

'Don't Step Out Of Line': Confidential Report Reveals How Chinese Officials Harass Activists in Canada

http://nationalpost.com/news/world/confidential-report-reveals-how-chine...

"The report details a sweeping intimidation campaign by Chinese officials against activists here in Canada."

Like Russophobia, Sinophobia has long been a feature of Canadian msm...

progressive17 progressive17's picture

I think it is not so much Russophobia and Sinophobia, but anti-Communism which has characterized official Canadian paranoia for all these years. Current-day Russia and China are bad in official parlance because they carry hangovers of their old Communist regimes. China is still officially Communist, and many Russians still consider themselves to be Communists. All the Chinese have to do is replace that hammer and sickle with a compass and a setsquare. Please?

I've heard China, home of summary executions and imprisonments by the State, is now being referred to as a "benevolent dictatorship". This is causing me to experience some cognitive dissonance.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

The biggest cognitive dissonance I experience is listening to people in North America talking like they have ever actually lived in a real democracy. Canada, a country founded by the HBC and still controlled by the modern day Family Compact. Me I think that until more than a handful of Chinese nationals want a change in style of government its none of my business. Its not like anyone could believe that turning China into a great capatalist state like India or the Phillipines would lead to a better life for poor people. It is even doubtful that such a move would lead to more peace and security from corrupt state officials. Of course China getting to be India would be a good outcome compared to the fate of the people in Libya, Iraq, Syria and Egypt who we so kindly helped.  In the meantime Prog17 why do you think the people who live under the regime you despise like it so much? They don't seem to be yearning for the days of the treaty ports which was the last European controlled system they lived under.

https://www.quora.com/Are-the-Chinese-happy-with-communist-government

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_ports

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

China may still want to consider itself a Communist bulwark, but when they have their own stock exchange, when their "growing middle class" should be of interest to everyone from marketers to Uncle Sam, when citizens can actually emigrate if they wish, maybe the Chinese DO like it.  Why not?  It's not like they're forced to wear green uniforms and hats with stars on them any more.  Let the government call itself whatever it wants, just like any other government.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

China is a modern secular state based on a legal constitution and framework accepted by its people. Strangely enough because it is a one party state and the state actually wields the power you can see who the players calling the shots are, if you are Chinese of course. In Canada we can see who our elected politicians are but we don't get a score sheet, like the CP list, of who the real players are that are actually making the decisions. As well in Canada these days unelected boards like Airport Authorities and Port Authorities and the NEB all have powers to supercede the local vision for the region when in conflict with local elected governments.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
China is a modern secular state based on a legal constitution and framework accepted by its people. Strangely enough because it is a one party state and the state actually wields the power you can see who the players calling the shots are, if you are Chinese of course.

And if you don't like it, you can vote for the other party.  :)

WWWTT

Mr. Magoo wrote:

And if you don't like it, you can vote for the other party.  :)

Lol! And when did voting for another party accomplish anything? All “voting for the other party” ever did for those in the west was successfully shut down people from complaining about their corporate masters.
China is actually more democratic than Canada. In Canada, unless you’re an elected politician at any level, you have 0 ability of introducing or voting on legislation. In China however, the communist parties 88 million strong membership (largest for any political party in the world) are better able to be involved in policy.

WWWTT

dont u luv those double posts?

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

The biggest cognitive dissonance I experience is listening to people in North America talking like they have ever actually lived in a real democracy. Canada, a country founded by the HBC and still controlled by the modern day Family Compact. Me I think that until more than a handful of Chinese nationals want a change in style of government its none of my business. Its not like anyone could believe that turning China into a great capatalist state like India or the Phillipines would lead to a better life for poor people. It is even doubtful that such a move would lead to more peace and security from corrupt state officials. Of course China getting to be India would be a good outcome compared to the fate of the people in Libya, Iraq, Syria and Egypt who we so kindly helped.  In the meantime Prog17 why do you think the people who live under the regime you despise like it so much? They don't seem to be yearning for the days of the treaty ports which was the last European controlled system they lived under.

https://www.quora.com/Are-the-Chinese-happy-with-communist-government

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_ports

I disagree that the poll showing satisfaction in the direction of a country means happiness with the government. They are not quite the same thing. You could be a supporter of a government and unhappy with the direction of the country or oppose the government and generally be happy with the direction of the country. The government is the administrator not the country entirely. I also disagree that there is any evidence that Chinese people would not like to change their government. It would be hard to find many populations in the world without such an opinion.

The issue is more likely the fact that they do not see an acceptable safe alternative and the process is not promising. Most elected governments are contests between a handful of options where the people vote for the least bad in their opinion and the result is a compromise that is either a combination nobody voted for or a plurality the majority voted against. An unelected government is not going to be better off in that regard, even if it is not significantly worse off.

I am sure Chinese people could, like the people of any other country, each imagine something they would prefer and manage their disatisfaction as best they can knowing that there is no widespread agreement to do something else. I firmly believe that no government really pleases a majority of their people. They are simply the least bad compromise that the people put up with until they come up with a better one. Or until one is put on them that they feel it is unrealistic or unsafe to try to change.

I think this might be one of the few constants between most countries in the world.

 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
In China however, the communist parties 88 million strong membership (largest for any political party in the world) are better able to be involved in policy.

That's about 6% of the population.

Can you be involved in policy-making if you support a different party?  Or do you have to declare that your favourite colour is red before you're allowed to weigh in on what your favourite colour is?

Quote:
China is actually more democratic than Canada.

Hehe.  Of course.  Everything Chinese is better.  They can make a three minute egg in two minutes!  But the MSM is forbidden to talk about it.

WWWTT

who cares about “western” msm when your wages are doubling in 4-5 years and jobs are a dime a dozen? You think Chinese people are stupid enough to fall for the corporate “dangling carrot” of shiny trinkets?  You know that’s one thing I really admire about the Chinese Communist Party, they don’t assume the people’s are stupid and take them for granted!

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