Corbyn’s Labour and the path to power

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nicky

Little movement for LDs and Greens?

have you looked at the results Josh?

why did Labour do so badly?

josh

Referring to the national polls.  Not the lower turnout local elections.

JKR

I think Labour is in a no-win position with Brexit as approximately 1/3 of Labour supporters support different versions of Brexit and 2/3 are opposed to it altogether. The only benefit for Labour from Brexit seems to be that it seems to be hurting the Conservatives even more than them. I thing the only solutions for Brexit available to Labour are the lesser bad ones. The Conservatives are very likely going into the next election with a new leader so Labour can’t count on having May win them the election.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

nicky wrote:

That’s such nonsense Ken. 

In your universe everyone who opposes Brexit or fails to worship the hapless Corbyn is part of some right wing conspiracy.

you seem incapable of learning any lessons from these elections.

if Labour is similarly blinkered it will have an unhappy future

I wouldn't have voted Brexit.  All I'm saying is that we both know it can't be stopped and that at this point there's no point in pushing Labour to stopping it.

The Labour losses were in pro-Brexit areas-this proves that centering a fight to overturn Brexit would not have helped Labour in this contest.

It's astounding that you still can't accept that:  

A)What matters more than anything else is getting the Tories out as quickly as possible-something Labour can't do with a non-Left leader, given that nobody outside of the left wing of the party has any personal popularity or any ability to connect with voters, especially young voters.

B)There was NOTHING Corbyn could have said or done that could have stopped the Leave victory in the referendum-nothing could have, given the way the largely-Tory run Remain campaign was run-and that all Corbyn was guilty of there was admitting that a lot of people in the UK have valid grievances with the EU.  The only way Remain could have been victorious would have been if the Remain campaign was "Remain and Reform", or "Remain and Rebel(against the EU austerity requirements)", and at that point, the PLP wouldn't have allowed Corbyn to run that campaign.  It wasn't possible to win working-class voters in the Northeast of England to Remain, since the pro-Remain forces refused to address the catastrophic economic damage the EU had done to the Northeast and the Labour Right didn't care about voters in that area.

C) There is nothing else Corbyn could do about anti-semitism, we all know he never tolerated it-all he was guilty of was not banning Labour supporters from criticising the Israeli government or .  And anti-semitism, while vile and while condemned by virtually everyone on the Left, is the least-prevalent prejudice in the UK; the incidence of anti-Semitism is trivial compared to the incidence of Islamophobia, anti-BAME(Black, Asian, and Minority Ethnic) prejudice, anti-Roma/Sindhu/Traveller prejudice, LGBTQ prejudice and misogyny.  

Corbyn is currently unpopular-although universally respected as a decent, truthful person, the first compassionate and honest human being who has led Labour since Michael Foot-because the BBC and the Murdoch press has slandered him for years.  If Labour had a leader the MSM in Britain didn't viciously attack, we could assume that that leader wasn't worth supporting-because lack of such attacks could only mean that that particular leader didn't disagree with the Tories on anything that mattered.  The proof of this is that the last Labour leader the UK media didn't relentlessly attack was Blair.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

nicky wrote:

Little movement for LDs and Greens?

have you looked at the results Josh?

why did Labour do so badly?

Because there was nothing they could have done, and no leader they might have had, who could possibly have done well.  An all out stop-Brexit position could only have led to MORE losses in pro-Brexit areas-it couldn't have helped them anywhere.

nicky

God help Labour if, as Ken repeats so often, “there is no one...” who could have done better than Corbyn or “ there is nothing he could do...” to prevent the disasters yawning in front of the party.

yes there is something they can do. Abandon Coryn’s ruinous leadership.

Pogo Pogo's picture

Your argument needs to put forward an alternative name to be credible.

nicky

Ken, you claim that Labour’s losses were in pro-Brexit areas and that Labour would have done worse if it was unequivocally Remain.

but Labour lost all over the map, not to Brexi5 parties, which did badly everywhere, but to 5he LDs and Greens who staunchly oppose Brexit.

how does that fit your 5ortured narrative?

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

nicky wrote:

God help Labour if, as Ken repeats so often, “there is no one...” who could have done better than Corbyn or “ there is nothing he could do...” to prevent the disasters yawning in front of the party.

yes there is something they can do. Abandon Coryn’s ruinous leadership.

Corbyn's leadership isn't ruinous.  What HAS been ruinous is the endless sabotage campaigns the PLP has run against Corbyn-their endless refusal to treat Corbyn with respect, the totally unjustified effort of the PLP to force him out with that meaningless "no-confidence" motion, their efforts to force a replacement ballot in which only non-left candidates would have been allowed-their pointless campaign to kick out Momentum and virtually every other non-Blairite group(there is no difference between the terms "Labour moderate" and "Blairite"), the coordinated resignation campaign of Labour MPs in 2017 in an effort to force Corbyn to stand down as leader DURING the election campaign, even though they knew it's impossible to change leaders DURING an election campaign and that no party in British electoral history has ever even attempted to do such a thing-their refusal to accept that the massive popular votes gains in 2017 proved that the leadership question should be considered settled-their refusal to accept that Corbyn's election as leader permanently changed the party and meant that most Labour voters and supporters wanted a clear break from the Third Way.

Corbyn might well have stood down had the Labour Right just done these things:

1) Accepted that every MP should be subject to de-selection and should have real accountability to their constituency party;

2) Stopped trying to drive out the Left;

3) Gave up the pointless MP veto over who gets on the leadership ballot;

If the PLP had let it go at just asking Corbyn to go, he likely would have-but they always insisted on not only trying to oust him but to re-expel the Left and drag the party back to Blairism.  The anti-Corbynites need to stop being anti-Left.  They need to accept that Labour HAS to be strongly to the Left of where it was from 1994 to 2015; that it needs to reach out to the people it has excluded, and that the only way to win is to turn nonvoters into voters by standing passionately for a complete break with the status quo.

Labour will die if it does what you want and puts a reactionary like Yvette Cooper in the leadership.  She cares only about "the center" and "Middle England", and neither of those were ever real.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Pogo wrote:

Your argument needs to put forward an alternative name to be credible.

He won't put forward an alternate name, because he knows that none of the anti-Corbynite MPs are capable of being popular with the electorate or presenting themselves as potential leaders of the government.

The only leaders nicky would accept are "social democrats"-i.e., people who accept every part of the austerity/privatization argument, people who supports the barbaric "benefit sanctions" policies of the Tories, people who still want unions kept weak,  people who still think "humanitarian intervention" is a thing.

 

JKR

Would any of these people be acceptable Labour leaders to replace Corbyn before the next election?:

  1. Emily Thornberry 
  2. Keir Starmer 
  3. Angela Rayner
  4. Rebecca Long-Bailey
  5. John McDonnell
  6. Clive Lewis
  7. Lisa Nandy
  8. Tom Watson
  9. Rosena Allin-Khan
  10. Laura Pidcock

josh

On a 36% turnout, Labour lost 82 seats while the Conservatives lost 1,334.  As noted below, Labour lost votes in heavily Brexit areas, while making some gains in other areas.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_United_Kingdom_local_elections

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

josh wrote:

On a 36% turnout, Labour lost 82 seats while the Conservatives lost 1,334.  As noted below, Labour lost votes in heavily Brexit areas, while making some gains in other areas.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_United_Kingdom_local_elections

82 seats is a fairly trivial loss, actually.

nicky

In 2015 Labour had its worst local election result in 50 years.

this time they did even worse.

and some of you think Corbyn did just fine!!!

josh

So much for the 2018 local elections.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

nicky wrote:

In 2015 Labour had its worst local election result in 50 years.

this time they did even worse.

and some of you think Corbyn did just fine!!!

It couldn't have done better taking the right-wing position that the hopeless fight to stop Brexit matters more than actually beating the Tories.

I'd have voted Remain to oppose Farage's vision of the future-but we both know there is NOTHING so bloody important about the EU that it's worth rejecting the will of the voters, accepting constraints that make social democracy impossible, let alone socialism, and hopelessly dividing the party.

Brexit is not more important than saving the NHS.  It is not more important than getting water and the railroads into public hands.  It's not more important than fighting poverty and unemployment and ending the barbaric treatment of the poor.  It is not more important than ending the nightmare the Tories are inflicting.

Nobody to Corbyn's right would be opposing the Tories on any important issues.  They all proved that in 2015, when they cheerfully agreed to abstain on-which was the same thing-the barbaric cuts in benefits and the indefensible benefits sanctions policies the May government was bringing in.

 

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

JKR wrote:

Would any of these people be acceptable Labour leaders to replace Corbyn before the next election?:

  1. Emily Thornberry 
  2. Keir Starmer 
  3. Angela Rayner
  4. Rebecca Long-Bailey
  5. John McDonnell
  6. Clive Lewis
  7. Lisa Nandy
  8. Tom Watson
  9. Rosena Allin-Khan
  10. Laura Pidcock

McDonnell would be best.  Lewis would be fine.  But the PLP won't allow anyone but right-wingers(and I think most of the others are basically Blairites).  Whoever won would need to accept that leftists not be expelled and that MPs should face cumpulsory re-selection before each general election.   

There's no good reason for ever making anyone connected to Blair a future leader, and there's no good reason to keep any aspect of the way the leadership structure of the party was run under Blair-Labour doesn't need to be an autocracy to win.

josh

Ken Burch wrote:

nicky wrote:

In 2015 Labour had its worst local election result in 50 years.

this time they did even worse.

and some of you think Corbyn did just fine!!!

It couldn't have done better taking the right-wing position that the hopeless fight to stop Brexit matters more than actually beating the Tories.

I'd have voted Remain to oppose Farage's vision of the future-but we both know there is NOTHING so bloody important about the EU that it's worth rejecting the will of the voters, accepting constraints that make social democracy impossible, let alone socialism, and hopelessly dividing the party.

Brexit is not more important than saving the NHS.  It is not more important than getting water and the railroads into public hands.  It's not more important than fighting poverty and unemployment and ending the barbaric treatment of the poor.  It is not more important than ending the nightmare the Tories are inflicting.

Nobody to Corbyn's right would be opposing the Tories on any important issues.  They all proved that in 2015, when they cheerfully agreed to abstain on-which was the same thing-the barbaric cuts in benefits and the indefensible benefits sanctions policies the May government was bringing in.

 

 

Well said.

JKR

Ken Burch wrote:

JKR wrote:

Would any of these people be acceptable Labour leaders to replace Corbyn before the next election?:

  1. Emily Thornberry 
  2. Keir Starmer 
  3. Angela Rayner
  4. Rebecca Long-Bailey
  5. John McDonnell
  6. Clive Lewis
  7. Lisa Nandy
  8. Tom Watson
  9. Rosena Allin-Khan
  10. Laura Pidcock

McDonnell would be best.  Lewis would be fine.  But the PLP won't allow anyone but right-wingers(and I think most of the others are basically Blairites).  Whoever won would need to accept that leftists not be expelled and that MPs should face cumpulsory re-selection before each general election.   

There's no good reason for ever making anyone connected to Blair a future leader, and there's no good reason to keep any aspect of the way the leadership structure of the party was run under Blair-Labour doesn't need to be an autocracy to win.

Why are most of the leading candidates to replace Corbyn “Blairites?”

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

JKR wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

JKR wrote:

Would any of these people be acceptable Labour leaders to replace Corbyn before the next election?:

  1. Emily Thornberry 
  2. Keir Starmer 
  3. Angela Rayner
  4. Rebecca Long-Bailey
  5. John McDonnell
  6. Clive Lewis
  7. Lisa Nandy
  8. Tom Watson
  9. Rosena Allin-Khan
  10. Laura Pidcock

McDonnell would be best.  Lewis would be fine.  But the PLP won't allow anyone but right-wingers(and I think most of the others are basically Blairites).  Whoever won would need to accept that leftists not be expelled and that MPs should face cumpulsory re-selection before each general election.   

There's no good reason for ever making anyone connected to Blair a future leader, and there's no good reason to keep any aspect of the way the leadership structure of the party was run under Blair-Labour doesn't need to be an autocracy to win.

Why are most of the leading candidates to replace Corbyn “Blairites?”

Because it has ONLY been the MPs from the Labour Right who want Corbyn to resign.  Everyone on the Labour Right can fairly be considered a Blairite, as can any MP who still defends the Iraq War or who voted to abstain on May's benefit cuts.  Nobody can take those stands and still retain any social democratic convictions, let alone socialist convictions.  And it matters that the vast majority of the Labour rank-and-file want the party to stay where it has gone on the issues in the Corbyn era.  

Tom Watson can't be considered anything OTHER than a Blairite, given that all he has done as deputy leader is to work to sabotage and undermine Corbyn and to expel as many of his supporters as possible.  Nobody who wants most leftists expelled, and nobody who STILL claims that Corbyn hasn't done all that could be done to address the tiny, trivial incidence of antisemitism within the party still wants Labour to be different than the Tories on any major issues.

nicky

Everyone seems to be a Blairite except you Ken. 

If you get rid of all of them who will be left in the Labour Party?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

nicky wrote:

Everyone seems to be a Blairite except you Ken. 

If you get rid of all of them who will be left in the Labour Party?

I didn't say everyone was a Blairite, but you'd have to concede that nobody could be an actual socialist and want Corbyn replaced by a leader who'd be sharply to his right.

NDPP

"What I'm tired of is politicians telling me I didn't know what I voted for. Yes I did. I voted out!"

https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/status/1124071945572691968

nicky

No Ken, I would not concede that.

i am sure there are many good socialists who want rid of Corbyn for the sake of the Labour Party, socialists who recognize that his leadership is disastrous for Labour.

NDPP

The way things are going there may be many good socialists who want rid of the Labour Party for the sake of socialism.

nicky
Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

That is nothing but a spiteful rant by a bitter antisocialist.  He's the sort who thinks it would be worth electing a Labour government under a reactionary militarist like Yvette Cooper.

Labour MPs need to face compulsory re-selection before each general election-there is no excuse for the automatic renomiation of the 160 all-but-Tory MPs who never accepted Corbyn as leader, never gave him a chance, never stopped briefing against him.  Those MPs have no remaining non-right wing convictions and have acted, from the moment Corbyn was elected, out of no motivation other than a desire to restore the Blairite ascendancy(and if you question my use of the term "Blairite", well why? There's no such thing as a Labour Right MP who isn't at least essentially a Blairite.  What the hell else would you call them?  You can't call the anti-Corbynites social democrats let alone socialists-you're only a social democrat if you're anti-austerity and you vote to oppose ALL the Tory cuts.

The anti-Corbynites won't stop until not only Corbyn has resigned-and the man is just a man, he's not a god, so he would resign if he was really dragging the party down-but until they've gone back to just the MPs electing a leader, and in the short run being able to set up a leadership ballot in which no actual socialist was allowed, like they did when they refused to allow anyone but Gordon Brown, the man they knew was doomed to lose the election, on the leadership ballot to replace Blair-and let's face it, Blair only won elections Labour would have won under any leader and on any platform.

It's was a disappointing result, but mainly because the Labour Right wouldn't let the hopeless, pointless fight to prevent the unpreventable Brexit go, wouldn't accept the reality that the only possibilities are soft Brexit or hard Brexit-and that there's no non-reactionary case to be against soft Brexit since it would keep the good parts of the EU and free the UK from the bad parts, such as the inability to nationalize and the unjustified and intrusive balanced budget requirements.

If Corbyn is dumped-unless he were replaced by someone like Clive Lewis or John McDonnell, someone who actually stands for Labour values, unlike the anti-Corbyn wing of the PLP-Labour will instantly lose every voter under 40.  No Labour "moderate" can ever be popular with young voters or ever be capable of offering any ideas young voters would support.  If Labour does what you want and goes back to being bland, dreary, grey and vindictively antisocialist-which also means lowering itself to once again being to the Right of the Tories on the use of force-the party will lose the votes of every single voter it needs to get to win.  The only votes Labour was ever going to be able to add to its total in 2021 were those to its left, were nonvoters.   The centrist "swing voter" doesn't exist, "Middle England" doesn't exist, and there's no large bloc of existing voters anywhere in the UK who would swarm to the party if it did what you call for and went back to being an ideological dead zone run by bitter, cynical, dismissive hacks like Tom Watson or Cooper or any of the others you'd want.  Labour can never gain votes again by telling the young and the radical to either shut up and do what they're told or just eff off.

nicky

“Every voter under 40.....”? Do you have some proof of that Ken?

It is quite charming how you are constantly making similar absolutist claims , ofwhich there are several more in your last post, without any proof whatsoever.

To respond in your terms, surely you must concede that every single person who makes sweeping and unsupported claims will not be taken seriously by any single person on earth, including the 80% of Labour MPs who are to a person unregenerate right-wing, pro-austerity, pro Israeli apartheid, anti-worker, Blairites because they do not believe that the sun shines out of Corbyn’s bum.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

I can make the claim about voters under 40 based on the fact that, with Blair, Brown and Ed Miliband as leaders, youth support for Labour vanished and the youth wing of the party(well, Young Labour, that Blair imposed after he and Kinnock murdered the true youth branch, Young Socialists).  The antiwar movement and the anti-austerity movement-you'd have to concede that there's virtually no such thing as a young possible Labour voter who'd be ok with austerity and benefits sanctions-of the past twenty years have been made up overwhelmingly of young people who WOULD have been Labour but were treated like vermin by Blair, Brown, and Ed Miliband.  

We know that those people would have been Labour because, under the leaders you preferred, Labour Party membership steadily collapsed after 1997 or so.  A party can't have long-term political success if it keeps driving huge numbers of people OUT of the party, as those three did.

As to who the anti-Corbynites prefer, virtually ALL of them, for years, had seen Ed Miliband's reactionary brother David as their dream leader, even though David Milband truly doesn't disagree with the Tories on anything.  That's how I can conclude that no anti-Corbyite MP wants Labour to be a different party than the Conservatives.

There is no good reason for any of the MPs who spent the last four years trying to depose Corbyn as leader, who slandered him on anti-Semitism even though there was nothing else he could possibly have done on the issue-I think you'd have to concede it was not legitimate to demand he make Labour a party of the right by embracing the IHRA "guidelines" and by equating criticism of the Israeli government to hatred of Jews when it clearly never is anything of the sort-to be protected de-selection.  Their endless sabotage of the leader proves they have no socialist or even social democratic values and proves they have no loyalty to the Labour Party at all.  They owe the party something and the owe the constituency parties that are do the work of electing and re-electing them something, and have an obligation to stop treating the people in the CLP as if they should have no say in what those MPs do and stand for.

And there is no good reason they should have a say in who is allowed to stand for the leadership any longer, given that 2010  and 2015 prove they no longer have any idea of how to win elections or what the party should stand for.

I'm not sure why I bother, though.  You probably think Luke Akehurst and Margaret Hodge are social democrats.

nicky
Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

I'll address most of the article later, but first thing to state...Corbyn did not "seize control" of the party in 2015.  He won the leadership race fair and square by the will of those who voted.  There's no reason for you to post anything that implies Corbyn's victory in 2015 was illegitimate.  Even among fully-paid Labour members in 2015, Corbyn took 49.9% of the first preference votes.  It's simply not possible that every single Labour member who voted for someone else on the first preference would have coalesced around somebody else, and none of the other three2015 candidates-Andy Burhham, Yvette Cooper or Liz Kendall-were anywhere close to Corbyn in support.  Corbyn-and most importantly, where he stands on the issues-represents the change the Labour rank and file wanted and continue to want on policy.  You can't make any serious case for the idea that the party would be doing any better in the polls now with any of the other three in the leadership-what the hell do any of them even have to offer?  

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

BTW, why are YOU obsessed with trying to reverse Brexit?  Even if it were possible, it wouldn't make any meaningful progressive difference.  The crack down on tax evasion is the only even center-left argument for obsessing about that issue, and there's no reason to think that was really going to happen.   Soft Brexit would keep relatively open immigration and since its the Social Chapter is essentially extinct, why isn't that enough?  Why not accept that Soft Brexit is the best that can be done?  It's clear that nothing bad in the thing, such as the budget restrictions and the effective ban on nationalization can ever be undone, so why even bother?

It truly looks like you want Labour to go back to having nothing but cynical, lying hacks as leaders.  The only decent people in the party are on the left, and it's perfectly clear you'd like all socialists and small-d democrats expelled. 

Brexit is settled, it can't be undone, and trying to undo it was never more important than trying to undo Thatcherism.  Whatever you think about Corbyn-and he has clearly never deserved your sneering derision-there was never anything so unforgiveable about him that it was worth you and the other Labour Right types spending more time trying to make him unpopular and trying to reduce Labour's strength in the polls than it was uniting for victory.  

It was never worth accusing him of indifference to anti-Semitism when you knew he never was and it was never worth the time you spent repeating all the lies of the Tory press.

The EU serves the rich.  Period.  It's mildly progressive on issues that don't make any difference in anyone's lives and which have never been transformative, but it's simply not more important than saving the NHS and erasing the Tory cuts in benefits.

 

josh

Brexit Party passes the Tories in one poll, 1 point behind them in another.  Labour at 330 seats and 314 respectively.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

Aristotleded24

josh wrote:
Brexit Party passes the Tories in one poll, 1 point behind them in another.  Labour at 330 seats and 314 respectively.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

Indeed, and they are even ahead of the Liberal Democrats. The Labour Party in 2017 promised to deliver the referendum results. Now the anti-Brexiteers within the Labour Party have moved the party away from that position and to discuss a second vote. This has allowed the Brexiteers to claim that they speak for the anti-establishment, because both Labour and the Tories are seen to be blocking the will of the people. That's why Labour support has cratered as badly as it has. Like Ken says, it has allowed the Brexiteers to direct that anti-establishment anger at the idea of remaining, when that anger should be directed at the economic system.

josh

Nonetheless, Labour is in a lot better shape than the Tories.  But the two appearing willing to let Niles Farage get a plausible shot at becoming PM rather than carry out the 2016 vote.  They appear willing to destroy the village in order to save it.

NDPP

"We should be leaving the EU today. But because of promise-breaking Remain politicians it's not happening..."

https://twitter.com/Jim_Lancashire/status/1127285768576217088

 

European Parliament Voting Intentions

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1127250825859014656

BREX: 34% (+6), LAB: 21% (-7), LDEM: 12% (+5), CON: 11% (-3), GRN: 8% (+2), UKIP: 4% (+1), CHUK: 3% (-4)

NDPP

Review: The Left Case Against the EU

https://www.e-ir.info/2019/05/05/review-the-left-case-against-the-eu/

"It is imperative for the European left to come to terms with the EU's fundamental irreformability and to fully embrace the demand for popular sovereignty - springing from the continent's subordinate classes, as exemplified by Brexit..."

nicky

Corbyn’s Labour and the path to oblivion:

European Election Voting Intention:

 

BXP: 34% (+4)

LAB: 16% (-5)

LDM: 15% (+5)

GRN: 11% (+2)

CON: 10% (-3)

CHUK: 5% (-4)

 

Via @YouGov, 8-9 May.

Changes w/ 29-30 Apr.

NDPP

WATCH: "Thousands of British trade unionists marching against the EU just a decade ago. The great Bob Crow articulates the case powerfully: 'We're pro-worker. The EU is pro-global capital.' This was once the mainstream position throughout the labour movement."

https://twitter.com/ExittheEU/status/1125655007481749505

 

"As Labour marches towards a second referendum with Sir Keir Starmer, the huge Labour Leave areas of the country slip away to the Brexit Party. We face oblivion in these areas in the coming European elections. But our conscience is clear, we've done all we can, but alas ignored again."

https://twitter.com/labourleave/status/1127951106645082114

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

nicky wrote:

Corbyn’s Labour and the path to oblivion:

European Election Voting Intention:

 

BXP: 34% (+4)

LAB: 16% (-5)

LDM: 15% (+5)

GRN: 11% (+2)

CON: 10% (-3)

CHUK: 5% (-4)

 

Via @YouGov, 8-9 May.

Changes w/ 29-30 Apr.

And it goes without saying that it would be worse if Labour went right wing on the issue and led with the unwinnable fight to stop what can't be stopped.

Like all the other pro-Remain parties, they'd STILL be losing to the Brexit Party in a landslide. 

Why are you so obsessed with forcing Labour to take up a doomed and essentially reactionary cause?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

What was it, nicky, that you ALWAYS hated so much about Corbyn?  He's the most personally decent person to lead the party since Keir Hardie, his policies are popular, he has spent his life fighting for a better world for all.  What, in any of that, is so intolerable to you?

You were attacking him BEFORE anyone made the hopeless suggestion of centering the unwinnable fight to stop Brexit.

You were attacking him DURING the 2017 election when he had Labour soaring in the polls-you were still, in fact, demanding that he stand down as leader during the election campaign, even though it is impossible for a party to change leaders during an election campaign, and even though no party in British electoral history has ever tried that.

What is it about the man that you so utterly despise?

And how does Labour ever unite for victory if you get what you actually want-we all know you wouldn't accept another actual socialist as leader, which means you'd only accept someone sharply to Corbyn's right, probably someone who still thinks the Iraq War was wright-if you get your way and Corbyn stands down?  There isn't anyone on the right wing-the comically misnamed "moderate" wing of the party-who could ever hold the non-voters Corbyn turned into voters, there isn't anyone significantly to his right who could offer a vision of the future different from Toryism in any meaningful way-Jess Phillips essentially supports the Tory manifesto, so does Yvette Cooper, so does Andy Burnham-and all of these people would return Labour to the smug, dismissive "shut up and do what you're bloody well TOLD!" approach to the people who do the work of going out and working to elect Labour governments.

Nobody out there in the wider electorate WANTS Labour to move to the right on anything, and there is no evidence at all that anyone who voted Tory in any recent election will ever vote for any party other than the Tories, no matter how far to the right you'd force it.

Why could you never, ever, at any point, give Corbyn a chance?

Your posts on this all sound petulant and vindictive, and since your notion of the perfect "social democratic" party leader is Tom Mulcair, it's hard to credit you with any greater knowledge of what the left or "center-left" needs to do to win than anyone else might has.

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

I mean, c'mon, nicky, nobody thinks an election where Labour was led by Sadig Khan or Keir Starmer would matter-they'd erase everything Labour from the manifesto and kick out all the actual leftists.  Nobody would swing to the party with anybody you'd approve of in the leadership.  

 

josh

nicky wrote:

Corbyn’s Labour and the path to oblivion:

European Election Voting Intention:

 

BXP: 34% (+4)

LAB: 16% (-5)

LDM: 15% (+5)

GRN: 11% (+2)

CON: 10% (-3)

CHUK: 5% (-4)

 

Via @YouGov, 8-9 May.

Changes w/ 29-30 Apr.

Good thing the European elections don’t mean shit.  And I notice you totally ignore the UK polls I posted.  How convenient.  How dishonest.

Aristotleded24

nicky wrote:
Corbyn’s Labour and the path to oblivion:

European Election Voting Intention:

 

BXP: 34% (+4)

LAB: 16% (-5)

LDM: 15% (+5)

GRN: 11% (+2)

CON: 10% (-3)

CHUK: 5% (-4)

 

Via @YouGov, 8-9 May.

Changes w/ 29-30 Apr.

Notice which party is in first place in that poll nicky?

bekayne

Aristotleded24 wrote:

nicky wrote:
Corbyn’s Labour and the path to oblivion:

European Election Voting Intention:

 

BXP: 34% (+4)

LAB: 16% (-5)

LDM: 15% (+5)

GRN: 11% (+2)

CON: 10% (-3)

CHUK: 5% (-4)

 

Via @YouGov, 8-9 May.

Changes w/ 29-30 Apr.

Notice which party is in first place in that poll nicky?

If their position represented the majority of Britons, shouldn't they be a lot higher?

nicky

Josh, you’re right that there are some projections that give Labour a plurality of seats based on some recent polls.

BUT they also, as your link demonstrates, give Labour barely a quarter of the vote. 

Labour has lost ONE THIRD of the vote it got in the last general election. You find solace that the FPTP system may disguise this fact. 

It is far from clear that the seat projections are accurate given the complete reshuffling of the electoral deck. Old voting patterns, upon which the projections are based, are being shredded.

i am not sure what your point may be Bekayne. If it is that Farage is well ahead in the EU poll, you should also consider that the combined Remain vote considerably exceeds Leave. 

Recent polling puts Remain at about 55% in a new referendum.

as for the EU election, if you combine the vote for the unequivocal Remain parties, LD, ChUK, Greens, Plaid, and SNP you get about 37%, well ahead of Farage. Add in the 80% of Labour voters, whose views are betrayed by Corbyn, and you get at least 50%.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

nicky wrote:

Josh, you’re right that there are some projections that give Labour a plurality of seats based on some recent polls.

BUT they also, as your link demonstrates, give Labour barely a quarter of the vote. 

Labour has lost ONE THIRD of the vote it got in the last general election. You find solace that the FPTP system may disguise this fact. 

It is far from clear that the seat projections are accurate given the complete reshuffling of the electoral deck. Old voting patterns, upon which the projections are based, are being shredded.

i am not sure what your point may be Bekayne. If it is that Farage is well ahead in the EU poll, you should also consider that the combined Remain vote considerably exceeds Leave. 

Recent polling puts Remain at about 55% in a new referendum.

as for the EU election, if you combine the vote for the unequivocal Remain parties, LD, ChUK, Greens, Plaid, and SNP you get about 37%, well ahead of Farage. Add in the 80% of Labour voters, whose views are betrayed by Corbyn, and you get at least 50%.

There is simply no reason for you to be obsessed on getting a referendum where undoing Brexit is an option when we all know the Tories can't be made to do it.

And when we all know it wouldn't help Labour in the polls to push for that, because every Labour Leave voter would vote against the party for the rest of eternity.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

And nobody is being betrayed by Corbyn, because Labour Remain voters don't put Remain above ALL other concerns.

Soft Brexit would be just as strong an anti-xenophobia stance as undoing Brexit-especially since none of those on the Labour Right who decided to use this issue to beat Corbyn over the head support doing anything to change the EU.  None of them are Remain and Reform.  

And it's fair to ask if its even possible to reform the EU and make it abandon the mandatory austerity measures and the measures which make nationalization effectively impossible.

josh
NDPP

Is A British Coup Underway Against Jeremy Corbyn?

https://youtu.be/0dMEVE7EAlc

"On this episode of Going Underground we speak to former MP and author of 'A Very British Coup' and 'The Friends of Harry Perkins' Chris Mullin, who discusses the history of MI5 and MI6 meddling in UK politics against Labour Party leaders and whether a British coup is underway against Jeremy Corbyn."

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