Coup d'etat in Honduras (continued)
July 2, 2009 - 2:47am
New thread to show mercy to those on dial-up.
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Syndicate
The US government confirmed that it KNEW the coup d'etat was coming ...
US government knew of the coup
¡EL PUEBLO UNIDO JAMÁS SERÁ VENCIDO!
It would be nice if the western media paid as much attention to a fascist coup in Honduras as to a disputed election in Iran. Especially as both Canada and the US have economic interests in Central and Latin America and therefore could exert some "pro-democracy" influence ... unlike in Iran where, since the US puppet monarch/Shah made his getaway in 1979, Canada and the US have abandoned their economic support and connections to that country and have newly discovered the harmfulness of Iran's nuclear industry where none existed before.
Still, YouTube is available to those who care to search.
Oh yea, here's the previous thread.
Why Zelaya's Actions were Legal
http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22956.htm
The old man has a few interesting remarks.
Approximately at 2:00 in the afternoon, a tamed majority in Congress -in coordination with the putschists- toppled Zelaya, the Constitutional President of Honduras, and appointed a new head of State announcing to the world that the former had resigned and showing a forged signature. A few minutes later, from an airport in Costa Rica, Zelaya related everything that had happened and categorically refuted the news about his resignation. The plotters had placed themselves in a ridiculous situation in the eyes of the world....
Some events were purely fascist in nature and even if expected they are still astonishing.
Honduran Foreign Minister Patricia Rodas was the putschists' main target, second only to Zelaya. Another detachment was sent to her residence. She was brave and determined, and she acted quickly; she did not waste time and started denouncing the coup in every way possible. Our ambassador contacted Patricia to learn about the situation; other ambassadors did likewise. At a given moment, she asked the diplomatic representatives of Venezuela, Nicaragua and Cuba to meet with her since she was being fiercely hounded and required diplomatic protection.
Castro goes on to compliment the actions of Cuba's Ambassador:
Reflections of Fidel: A Suicidal Mistake
Micheletti: Only Foreign Invasion can Reinstate Zelaya:
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/07/01/honduras-oas001.html
"It would take a foreign invasion to return the ousted President of Honduras to power, said the country's newly installed president, Roberto Micheletti.."
Covering (up) the coup in Honduras - the BBC does its bit for the Empire
'Hundreds' of protesters for the democratically elected Zelaya in Tegucigalpa are referred to as 'fanatics' and 'left wing.' It sounds like there would be more fanatical protesters in the streets if it wasnt for the fascist military crackdown.
As far as coup-d'etats go, this one seems really rather tame.
The coup that transpired to remove the man from office was illegal, yes, but its hardly Pinochet-Allende.
1. polls mean nothing - Zelaya is a democratically elected president
2. it wasnt a binding referendum, and Zelaya is ultimately and legally the highest authority in Honduras. And besides, the rich elite in that country flout the constitution on a regular basis with allowing child labour under the age of 16. So dont give us this crap about banana republic constititions of which this is the 16th and enacted by a rightwing death squad government during the criminal Reagan regime era
3. Yes, he was. And the military commander who Zelaya fired is a graduate of the notorious School of the Americas, a US-based university for export of torture and terror to Latin American countries and beyond
If only Zelaya realised this before embarking on his own poll that started all of this trouble.
Well, when it comes to amending the constitution, the Congress is actually the highest authority in Honduras.
Well, when it comes to amending the constitution, the Congress is actually the highest authority in Honduras.
What does it say about torture and US-backed oppression in general in the Honduran constitition? The people around here parroting what theyve read in CNN, Fox and BBC Newz are thoroughly full of shit about the sudden need to abide by the latest of several - a 16th constitution drafted by a criminal US-backed death squad regime in the 1980s. Is 16 supposed to be a lucky number or something? Honduras is still a banana republic run by a handul of elitists and their gringo friends in US plutocracy.
lHow United Fruit robbed and killed the people of Central America 1996
The U.S. capitalist establishment has recently been trying to organize a so-called war-crimes trial in the Netherlands. Its aim is justify U.S. intervention in Bosnia, once part of socialist Yugoslavia.
Where's the war-crimes trial for the massacres in Central America?
It's all about making the world safe for US hypocrisy
Unbelievable. Support on babble for miltiary dictatorship. Maybe the generals will keep the country safe for Club Med?
Rabble reports on protest against coup at Bob Rae's constituency office.
Yes, ZE, it is amazing and horrifying, and one has to realize if they are for it in this instance, they would not oppose it if it happened in Canada.
The fact that there are posts here tacitly backing or playing down the coup, is revelatory but not surprising. Liberals and many Western social democrats have patronizing imperial tendencies especially in regards to their racial and class "lessers." The colour line that divides the Americas is significant in this group and leads them to sympathy with the oligarchs and the middle classes as opposed to the poor who they without admitting as much, still think of as brutes.
Chavez: US and Venezuelan Right Wing Support Coup in Honduras:
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/4586
outrageous coup.
another example, after Sri Lanka, Afghanistan, etc. of the 'new' US administration talking one line while in practice backing military dictatorships that enforce the $$ interests of the globe's current slate of financial/corporate/energy thieves.
same cat, different skin/spin/rhetoric.
i'm no fan of some of Chavez' earlier Stalinist rhetoric, (has he changed that yet?? sheesh, muddies his work) but he and his staff do provide a clear perspective of the coup purpose - to undermine the alternative work that people in Latin America are doing, especially with regard to alternative finance in the region. In that I wish Chavez and others in the region success. The current mad casino of the North is turning the entire planet into an uninhabitable war zone.
i'm no fan of some of Chavez' earlier Stalinist rhetoric, (has he changed that yet?? sheesh, muddies his work) b
What Stalinist rhetoric was that? Could you provide an example. Chavez has been very outspoken and active in creating participatory democratic structures and in emphasizing worker (not state) control of the means of production. He hasn't rounded up all his opponents or caused any famines.
I'm not sure why the rabid anti-communists around here are so fascinated with Stalin and that point in time. Because famines are an ongoing feature of thirdworld capitalism since way before 1847 Ireland and continuing today with over a billion chronically hungry people still waiting for the free market economic long run to kick-in for them.
It's a method of changing the subject, Fidel, and I hope you don't take it the wrong way when I note that I've seen you go for it, hook, line and sinker, more times than I've had hot breakfasts. Not that I haven't sunk my teeth into a juicy lure, once or twice, but I can't hold a candle to your, um, brilliancy in this regard.
Carry on.
I found some more progressive/left sources for information on the events following the coup d'etat in Honduras. I guess the first thing to UNDERLINE is that the USA - imagine that! - IS THE ONLY REMAINING COUNTRY IN THE AMERICAS STILL MAINTAINING DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS WITH THE HONDURAN STATE AFTER THE COUP. Nice job, Barak Obama. If this keeps up, your street cred in Latin America will be very high among fascists and zero among ordinary people.
Secondly, the OAS doesn't need to expel Honduras from that organization because the (de facto) military junta has decided to withdraw from the OAS. Blam! Shazzam! The most important regional organization is now ... powerless to exert much influence here.They are meeting today to review the results of their abysmal failure.
Ongoing news can be found at ... Eva Golinger's blog (reccommended) or at the BBC for the British line (heaping dose of skepticism required).
The fascists give TV and radio time to the Church:
Head of Catholic Church in Honduras tells Zelaya not to return
In a message broadcast by the local television and radio networks Honduran Cardinal Oscar Rodríguez, urged ousted president Manuel Zelaya to stay out of the country to avoid a "blood bath."
"I know you love life, I know you respect life. Until now, not one Honduran has died, please meditate your decision before it is too late," he implored.
What's that? the Church at the service of the military junta, you say? Why, not at all! Here is a lengthy statement in the Catholic News Agency denying such baseless charges:
Clearly, the Church has been the very soul of neutrality!!!
Ok, that's really clear. Then:
Ah, the bishops took time from their divine duties! How civic-minded of them!!!!!
Well Holy Shit, it's not all that bad then, is it? It's just sort of kind of very much like something of a cabinet shuffle or something!
Why are all those other countries whining and crying anyways?
Pax vobiscum. Et cum spiritu tuo.
Peter Kent, the Honduran Catholic Church, and the military fascists. How can you go wrong?
Honduras: behind the crisis
Zelaya's government had proposed to launch a "popular consultation" in an effort persuade the national congress to approve the fourth ballot-box in the November elections. The coup against the president took place at the moment this was due to get underway. But the barons controlling the two traditionally dominant (and now discredited) forces - the National Party and the Liberal Party - began their own campaigns in May 2009. They saw the issue as a possible way of revitalising their parties, and in addition of robbing Zelaya of his "ownership" of the fourth ballot-box idea. Now, Zelaya has been robbed of more than this, and Honduran politics is in flux.
re: Chavez- i saw one of his speeches where he commented on Stalin's and Lenin's positions with respect to some policy. wish i had the reference, it was from a few years ago. maybe it was a misquote by whomever transcribed the speech, but those with more familiarity with Chavez' speeches would know. i just think it's important to make distinctions between what any person does well, and what they may not do well. No one is perfect. If Chavez' supporters don't try to hide his poor rhetoric, but critique it, then maybe there would be more trust built towards acknowledging the good things Chavez has done, and continues to do. i'm not going to write him off because he may have been misled, like so many others, by the writings of leaders of the USSR. Ultimately it's the behaviour of a leader which shows their true character, and Chavez so far has acted with good character, strangely unlike leaders here who denounce Stalin, then set up their own versions of private state control. by their fruits you shall know them. [don't smile].
but Fidel in your #17 you're way off. sure there have been famines 'produced by capitalism', what do you think the USSR was? socialist utopia? AND the nasty thing about Stalin and his henchmen is they didn't let many villagers leave to find food. made the entire countryside into one big concentration camp.
Any chance of sticking to the situation in Honduras in this thread?
sure, but it's better to clarify what's going on in people's minds when Honduras and Chavez are talked about, as those who support the coup are making mileage on the unspoken fears.
More about the role of the Church in the coup and its aftermath:
"Our people ask themselves why (OAS) has not condemned the war threats made against us by other countries," said the religious leader, referring to recent statements of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.
"We have the right to choose our own destiny without external pressure of any kind and look for solutions that promote common welfare, we reject military threats or blocks of any kind that will only make the poorest people suffer," he said.
The cardinal also called on the new government to promote national reconciliation and let aside revenge, pursuit, violence and corruption.
Rodriguez Friday had a meeting with OAS Secretary General Jose Miguel Insulza who was in the country on a mediation mission.
It must have been a good meeting, because the OAS has just kicked out Honduras for defying the call to reinstate Zelaya.
It is increasingly clear that Cardinal Rodriguez not only backed the coup, but is up to his ears in running spiritual interference for the military in the aftermath.
Just another example of filthy religions promoting war and colonialist activities.
Peter Kent is not the foreign minister, Lawrence Cannon is. And could anyone possibly be a worse foreign minister than Peter McKay was?
Peter Kent, is, however, a buffoon.
remind, that's a rather broad brush, of 'filthy religions'. We all know about Opus Dei in this hemisphere, and the role of others, in other denominations and religions who have similarly backed repression of various kinds, but there are also many, many ordinary people, and even leaders in many religions, who have done very good work.
remind, that's a rather broad brush, of 'filthy religions'. We all know about Opus Dei in this hemisphere, and the role of others, in other denominations and religions who have similarly backed repression of various kinds, but there are also many, many ordinary people, and even leaders in many religions, who have done very good work.
So what do you think of the actions of the head of the Honduran Church as reported above?
Peter Kent is not the foreign minister, Lawrence Cannon is.
You're correct, but Peter Kent is the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs, and the NY Times mixed it up in their report.
the behaviour of the church leader described was/is atrocious.
and apparently today Father Miguel D'Escoto, UN General Assembly President, is accompanying Zelaya back to Honduras, according to the CBC.
the radio had this aussie-voiced (BBC?) reporter saying the streets today were 'full of tension' as if it was Zelaya's fault for doing his job, responding to the needs of his people, and calling for constitutional change, and not the military coup leaders' fault for any 'tension' ! what a crock.
if the CBC can't get it's own people down there to report, i wish it could at least give some sense to the actual picture..
SOA Watch has sent some people there to observe. Apparently Zelaya is due in Honduras at 3 pm today.
i gather that Zelaya wanted to propose an actually democratic constituent assembly process to look at constitutional changes, while military coup leaders wanted to control any constitutional changes themselves. at gunpoint.
so now a plan for real participation in decision-making by constituents is grounds for a coup, and those who attempt it, in the face of a militarized cabal, are really the ones 'creating tension'. what a farce.
Protesters against the coup government and in favor of President Zelaya's return are gathered around the airport in Tegucigalpa, awaiting their constitutional president's arrival. They have reported snipers are stationed all around the airport, apparently ready to fire at any airplane that enters the area.
President Zelaya is announcing right now from Washington, where he arrived last night to attend the extraordinary Organization of American States (OAS) meeting that resulted in the suspension of Honduras from the multilateral group (note - NOT the OAS, which the coup regime withdrew from unilaterally - N.Beltov) until constitutional order is reestablished, that he will return today to his country, accompanied by two different delegations. The first delegation will be compromised of President Zelaya and the Secretary General of the United Nations (UN) Miguel D'Escoto. They will arrive directly in Tegucigalpa. The second delegation will be the Secretary General of the OAS, Jose Miguel Insulza, together with President Cristina Fernandez of Argentina, President Fernando Lugo of Paraguay and President Rafael Correa of Ecuador. The second delegation will land first in neighboring El Salvador.
It is unclear still how President Zelaya's airplane will enter Honduran airspace considering the coup government has militarized the nation and placed an order prohibiting the arrival of his airplane. The flight from Washington is four hours, so he should be entering Honduras around 4pm EDT, approximately. Either the plane will be shot down or President Zelaya will be taken prisoner by the military coup forces upon arrival.
Eva Golinger blog
I wonder if the coup regime is so insane as to open fire on an aircraft carrying the legitimate Honduran President and the President of the United Nations General Assembly. They may be waiting for an OK from Washington who will "look the other way" at the appropriate time.
The courage of this President of Honduras is certainly in marked contrast to the bunch that we have here in Canada, eh? But it is also said that people get the leaders that they deserve. Argg.
this is really so sick. snipers for an elected leader who wants to find a way for constituents to participate in decision-making.
We can't do anything about that sort of sickness. However, when our own government representatives equivocate about where they stand, well, that is something we can do something about. The only good Conservative MP is an unemployed Conservative. Ditto for those other idiots.
The Venuzuelan Gov't has stated that Zelaya will land in Tegucigalpa in just less than two hours from now.
http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&It...
Have any MPs said anything about this?
How many other countres have an unlimited number of terms that their political leader can be re-elected? Canada does, among many other countries, so what's the problem with exploring something similiar in Honduras?
I'm sure they'll be "real sorry" if harm comes to President Zelaya.
RE - MPs: The Liberal critic, Bob Rae, released a carefully worded statement "condemning the coup d'etat" while urging the junta to "support the democratic process". Way to go, big boy. (not!) Rae's statement is already out of date, as Honduras has LEFT the OAS rather than, inevitably, be expelled and drive a gigantic wedge between the US and its puppets, on the one hand, and independent states on the other.
NDP = ? It would be nice if the NDP actually distinguished itself from the mainstream bourgeois parties. Then again, with all the statements around the deaths of Canadians in the aggressive war on Afghanistan, there's not much room for, um, solidarity with some Central American President.
Honduras: Call for Urgent OAS Intervention
Monday, 6 July 2009, 9:05 am
Press Release: International Trade Union Confederation
Honduras: Call for Urgent OAS Intervention for Reinstatement of President and Restoration of Democracy and Human Rights
Brussels, 3 July 2009 (ITUC OnLine): The ITUC has called on José Miguel Insulza, secretary general of the Organisation of American States (OAS), to intervene urgently to protect democracy in Honduras and for the reinstatement of President Manuel Zelaya, who was detained and forcibly transported out of the country in the June 28 military coup.
In a letter http://www.ituc-csi.org/IMG/pdf/Carta_CSA_al_SG_OEA_-_Honduras03072009.p... to Insulza, Victor Baez, general secretary of the ITUC Regional Organisation for the Americas (TUCA), called for immediate measures to ensure protection for more than 20 Honduran trade union leaders who have received threats to their liberty and physical safety following trade union support for mass protests against the coup.
"This military coup, a completely unacceptable affront to democracy, risks a dangerous destabilization in the region, and threatens the very institutions and systems which have been put in place to assure democracy, peace and stability. President Zelaya must be reinstated and the suspension of key constitutional rights and guarantees must be reversed forthwith. The OAS, with the United Nations, must play a central role in bringing this about," said Guy Ryder, ITUC general secretary.
"We have received information from Honduras that there are lists of trade union leaders threatened with detention and whose personal safety is at risk. The situation is deteriorating, with the military ignoring representations from the OAS and the UN, and instead appearing to move towards generalized repression against those who continue to respect the legitimate authority," said Baez.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0907/S00094.htm
at the Iran thread it has been noted that reporting is treating the protesters there vs. Honduras differently; where the US supports the (new) incumbent (Honduras) those protesting are described in scary terms while in Iran- where the US doesn't like the incumbent- media describe protesters nicely.
the spin of media distorts who is doing what.
i just hope Zelaya and people in the street remain alive and well, and not arrested !
so is this Obama's 'soft power' that we're going along with??
say nice things while leaving the torture-teaching SOA open and backing military coups with a hand behind the back?
saying nothing in support of unionists threatened with jail just for calling a march?
not countering crappy media reports of demonstrators, who are actually just trying to keep their elected president from getting sniped?
CBC French TV had a fair bit of coverage of this at 6. Global TV- 0.
2 dead so far at the airport. Army shoots mercilessly at unarmed people. Many wounded. Chemical gas fired incessantly. Army shoots in the direction of the press. It is the special forces, led by grads of the SOA. Zelaya calls Romeo Vasquez from plane asking him to stand down, but is ignored.
Police chief had withdrawn police force, making army responsible for any violence that might break out.
Thousands scattered, with no shelter from army attack.
Troops loyal to Honduras's new leaders have fired tear gas at thousands of supporters of deposed President Manuel Zelaya at Tegucigalpa airport.
Do the coup apologists and the doubters get it, finally?
1. Zelaya had planned a CONSULTATION, NOT a referendum, last Sunday, based on 400,000 signatures gathered. The law was not violated.
2. Cuban exile friend of terrorist Posada Carriles was one of the promoters of the coup; he had given shelter to Posada Carriles when he managed to get out of Panama while awaiting extradition to Venezuela, from where he'd fled prison.
3. Zelaya was ousted because he stood up to the extreme right and to the business sector. One of his first meetings when he was elected was with a delegation of top businessmen, who handed him a list of public utilities he was to privatize. He refused. Then he joined Petrocaribe and ALBA and raised the wretched minimum wage. All that got the ball rolling with the opposition.
4. The US knew of the coup days before it took place. According to reliable sources, the white house and the state dept. called the US base and the embassy in Honduras to tell them not to support the coup and to be quiet, while the head of Southcom spoke with the plotters and supported the coup.
5. Cartoonist Allan McDonald was arrested and held in a hotel room with no food with his 3-year old daughter for 24 hours. When he finally returned home he found that the army had destroyed and burned all his drawings and his materials. Journalists have been beaten and radio and tv stations intervened. The ambassadors of Venezuela, Bolivia and Cuba were roughed up as they tried to protect and grant asylum to foreign minister Patricia Rodas as the army arrived to detain her.
6. Now, at least two people are confirmed dead at the airport, including a 16-year old boy, shot in cold blood. We do not know how many are wounded, or how seriously. The Red Cross can barely cope.
7. This coup was a test for the US and the right-wing, to roll back the popular movements and defeat popular governments throughout Latin America. That is why all Latin American nations have joined in support of Zelaya.
8. How about the de facto foreign minister dismissing Pres. Obama as a "negrito que no sabe nada de nada" (a know-nothing black boy).
The airplane has not landed as I write this, but the airport is totally militarized with numerous trucks arriving of soldiers.
So, if you're still inclined to justify or rationalize this criminal coup in any way, please stay away from rabble and other progressive sites.
thanks for the info Hoodeet.
CBC English radio at 6 had an 'independent journalist in Honduras' report that there were tens of thousands of pro-Zelaya protesters who were at the airport, with army 'firing shots in the air'.
the news host said one person had died.
Have any MPs said anything about this?
Once and for all: the consultation was not about Zelaya seeking re-election. Even if the consultation had resulted in support for a referendum in November, it would have been for a CONSTITUTIONAL ASSEMBLY to be held some time in the next couple of years. Zelaya's term would end in January 2010 in any case, so I wish people would stop repeating that mischievous misinformation.
thanks for the info Hoodeet.
CBC English radio at 6 had an 'independent journalist in Honduras' report that there were tens of thousands of pro-Zelaya protesters who were at the airport, with army 'firing shots in the air'.
the news host said one person had died.
NO armed people. Not even a burning tire. It's a cowardly massacre.
The airport is locked down.
This is what the constitutional democracies of the oligarchies of the world look like.
"Once and for all: the consultation was not about Zelaya seeking re-election."
Hoodeet, i was asking in your quote of me at #53 if any Canadian MPs had made any statements about the situation.
In any case, i'm glad you've taken the opportunity to clarify misconceptions at the BBC that the coup was about term extensions.
You've said the constituent process would take years and that as Zelaya's term is up in 2010 in any case, so the term extension complaint of the coup leaders is a lie. Also that the SOA-trained army special forces are massacring civilians in a cowardly way, and that journalists have been arrested etc.
Two dead - where's Zelaya?
Hell, yea. In place of barefaced support for violence we have ... two-faced support for violence. The official response of the US regime is to run its right index finger STERNLY across its left index finger in a show of unmitigated concern.
That's progress, right?
Llive shot of the airport - where's Zelaya? CBC suggested he might be rerouting but......
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7926658.stm
It's not about Zelaya by David L. Wilson is a good backgrounder read.
Early this year, Honduran teachers went on strike for back pay and held a sit-in at the education ministry. In February the Civic Council of Grassroots and Indigenous Organizations of Honduras (COPINH) organized a 12-day mobilization to protest the destruction of forests. In April hundreds of indigenous Chortí blocked access to the Copán archeological park, probably Honduras' most important ancient Mayan site, to press demands for land.
None of these were one-time protests -- they continued long-term struggles, some going back for years. And these same groups, which frequently support each other and coordinate their actions, are the ones that have confronted the coup and the subsequent repression with massive and spirited protests throughout the country.
in response to #57;
It is Not progress. It's BS.
BS + murder + lies + torture school
same old. guess some people thought we might get past that in this millenium. you know, those who are into 'evolution of the consciousness' and crap like that.
___
the info about groups working together on useful changes IS progress, on the other hand.
Llive shot of the airport - where's Zelaya? CBC suggested he might be rerouting but......
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7926658.stm
Zelaya and D'Escoto have landed in Managua. Is now going on to meet with the OAS group (Insulza, Fernandez-Kirchner, Correa, Lugo) in San Salvador. Might meet or teleconference on next move. Zelaya has pledged to enter Honduras if not tomorrow, then Tuesday or Wednesday, by any means he can.
Call going out tonight to OAS to take stronger action - but Canada and the US will not doubt once more urge patience and reject sanctions.
Also to the UN. On Telesur interview a few minutes ago Zelaya from his plane said that after this brutal attack on unarmed civilians the international community has to take a position.
Cannon-Harper, Ignatieff, and the rest have to be pressured hard, but I doubt they care about the little brown people down there. Our support for the Canadian mining companies in Honduras and our commitment to "free trade" and to our relationship with the US, all trump participatory democracies in what should have remained banana republics and not become so inconvenient.
Yes. No doubt Ignatief, Harper and co. will stay the course or at least stay silent in the face of tyrrany. Speaking of which did anyone read the barnstormer statement by Jack Layton on the situation in Honduras. I know it must be on their web site somewhere, but I was unable to find a link? Anyone got one?
It has been a week since the coup. One notes that it took less time for the NDP to produce one on the situation on Iran.
Curfew now in effect, three hours earlier than usual.
Guess the death squads will be out tonight. These deaths will occur attached to all manner of excuses from the Junta, and this narrative will be treated as worthy of credibility, and reported as such, meanwhile any such ridiculous excuses put about by the authorities in Iran will be dismissed as obviously fraudulent attempts to cover up the bloody footprints.
Guardian.UK will not start a list of the dead, disappeared and detained, trying to put the names to the faces of the victims.
"Call going out tonight to OAS to take stronger action - but Canada and the US will not doubt once more urge patience and reject sanctions.
"Also to the UN. On Telesur interview a few minutes ago Zelaya from his plane said that after this brutal attack on unarmed civilians the international community has to take a position."
sounds very much like Sri Lanka, and Peru, and Iraq, Afghanistan, the DRC, Burma; assault of civilians, theft of resources, and militarization to protect corporate mining, to be met with platitudes not sanctions.
Actions speak louder than words.
But some words about sanctions would be actually useful.
US Media Slow to Get Honduras Breaking News
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/7/5/750314/-US-Media-Slow-to-Get-...
What Cowardly Honduras Coup Lost Today:
http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/what-cowardly-honduras-coup-lo...
"here are some of the very significant realities that shifted today.."
Interesting last link NDPP, says it all.
And I hope those here who were coup positive rethink their faux pas.
It's funny you know, when you think of all that blood thirsty murder that was orchestrated by the US from Honduras in the 1980's to oust Daniel Ortega, that 20 years later he still ended up being president of the democracy he helped found. Weird really, considering the level of vilification that was leveled at him by past presidents of the USA. His presence at the OAS passes by without comment.
Guess the death squads will be out tonight. These deaths will occur attached to all manner of excuses from the Junta, and this narrative will be treated as worthy of credibility, and reported as such, meanwhile any such ridiculous excuses put about by the authorities in Iran will be dismissed as obviously fraudulent attempts to cover up the bloody footprints.
Guardian.UK will not start a list of the dead, disappeared and detained, trying to put the names to the faces of the victims.
Yes its so unfair. One form of brutal tyranny is excused and another isn't.
Monday morning CBC news report from Honduras on the airport events was relatively accurate, except for the semantic twisting of reality: "clashes between demonstrators and the army". Clashes, indeed, between peaceful, unarmed men, women and children, and the highly weaponized, armoured troops and sharpshooters who attacked them.
Re. war against the media inside Honduras (bombings, assassination, military takeovers, journalists in hiding): today's democracynow.org has an exhaustive report from Andrés Quintero.
Re. keeping lifelines to the coup government: need to pressure Mexico not to send oil to replace Venezuela's shipments, now suspended.
Regarding Parliamentarians in English-speaking Canada:
1. Conservatives justify the coup.
2. Liberals circumambulate around the issue. Sternly, then run their right index finger over their left index finger.
3. The NDP has some statements about the war in Afghanistan, and Harper's failure to support ... streetcars.
See no evil. Hear no evil. Speak no evil.
However, all the news here is not bad. The Canadian Labour Congress, unlike the party that allegedly represents its members politically, actually has something to say. Apparently, solidarity has not been entirely forgotten ...
The Honduran military kidnapped President Zelaya and forced him into exile in Costa Rica on the weekend. President Zelaya's plan to hold a non-binding national referendum on possible constitutional changes was opposed by the country's military and its elites and the Supreme Court had ruled it illegal. But President Zelaya's efforts enjoyed widespread support from broad sections of Honduran society, including the majority of its trade unions.
The CLC stands in solidarity with our sister unions in Honduras, and is concerned for the safety of trade union leaders, civil society leaders and protesters, as constitutional rights have been suspended, the media has been shut down, and arrest warrants have been issued for popular sector leaders. We call on the Canadian government to demand the de facto authorities of Honduras to respect the human rights of the country's citizens who are expressing their opposition to the military's coup d'état.
Some Honourable Canadians: Hear, hear!
I guess the Canadian labour movement still needs to retain some political independence, eh? Still, a solidarity campaign would be nice.
I remember Bob White saying that there wasnt a month go by that the CLC wasnt having to bail union activists from Mexican and other countries' prisons down there.
Ottawa's hostility towards Zelaya is likely motivated by particular corporate interests and his support for the social transformation taking place across Latin America.
From 1996-2006 Canadian companies were the second-biggest investors in the Central American country. It is unlikely that Zelaya won brownie points from the large Canadian mining sector -- including Breakwater Resources, Yamana Gold and Goldcorp that are active in Honduras -- when he announced that no new mining concessions would be granted.
Likewise, Zelaya's move earlier this year to raise the minimum wage by 60 per cent could not have gone down well with the world's biggest blank T-shirt maker, Montréal-based Gildan. Employing thousands of Hondurans at low wages Gildan produces about half of its garments in the country.
Harper regime isolated ...
...but seems to be doing overtime ignoring human rights and acting as a transmission belt for corporate intere$t$. Yup.
the statements by Kent prior to the coup, and the behaviour of Harper after, are beyond the pale.
i'm just left speechless.
had an interesting talk today with someone from a long-term farm family in our area. we covered a fair bit of ground, from trade and implications for finance, to this coup. actually we started with this coup, did the circle and came back round. it was heartening for me to see, again, that the younger generations of rural folk have no problem appreciating what's going on. an interesting comment made that was quite a number of people who formerly considered themselves PC voters were switching to NDP. Now only if the NDP would more accurately reflect ...the future. we might get there
See no evil. Hear no evil. Speak no evil.
Last year the NDP did say that Canada must stop mining abuses in Honduras and other countries Instead the Harpers cut corporate welfare cheques to these environmental criminals and human rights abusers posing as transnational mining companies. And the Liberals must be of the same mind with supporting the Harpers some 79 times now with votes of confidence in parliament
Guess the death squads will be out tonight. These deaths will occur attached to all manner of excuses from the Junta, and this narrative will be treated as worthy of credibility, and reported as such, meanwhile any such ridiculous excuses put about by the authorities in Iran will be dismissed as obviously fraudulent attempts to cover up the bloody footprints.
Guardian.UK will not start a list of the dead, disappeared and detained, trying to put the names to the faces of the victims.
You could have condemned the Honduras coup without dismissing what is going on in Iran. The hypocricy in your approach on this thread and what you post on the Iran thread is quite obvious. The killing of Iranian protesters are, in your view, justified police action and no excessive force, while here you are making one post after another about deaths that may happen in future. Is the Iranian blood somehow of a different color than other people? In the name of decency, please refrain from bringing Iran into the discussion about Honduras. Make your points on Iran on the Iranian thread so that we can respond. Let's not divert this thread from its main subject, the issue of the coup in Honduras.
i think Cueball is using the 'Chomsky method'- comparing how Empire treats those who obey differently from those who resist. the assumption is that the current Iranian leader is resisting US rule whereas the current Honduran pretender is obeying US rule.
i think Cueball is using the 'Chomsky method'- comparing how Empire treats those who obey differently from those who resist. the assumption is that the current Iranian leader is resisting US rule whereas the current Honduran pretender is obeying US rule.
How many coups, assassinations, and dirty wars waged against desperately poor countries could the CIA and US military possibly be directly and indirectly responsible for?
i think Cueball is using the 'Chomsky method'- comparing how Empire treats those who obey differently from those who resist. the assumption is that the current Iranian leader is resisting US rule whereas the current Honduran pretender is obeying US rule.
I edit out my response so that this thread remains focused on Honduras. See you in the Iranian thread.
Honduran army shoots and kills protesters July 6th
"It is estimated that at least 100,000 people marched towards Toncontin Airport to welcome "Mel".
Beltov:
"Regarding Parliamentarians in English-speaking Canada:
1. Conservatives justify the coup.
2. Liberals circumambulate around the issue. Sternly, then run their right index finger over their left index finger.
3. The NDP has some statements about the war in Afghanistan, and Harper's failure to support ... streetcars.
See no evil. Hear no evil. Speak no evil."
Nice. Let me give you a needed clue too, we 'parliamentarians' aren't the ones who pick and choose which form of imperialiosm is ok and which isn't, based on nothing apparently but which world power is still supposed to adhere to which ideological imperative. And we 'parliamentarians' (is that the neuvo left term BTW, for those who still believe in the right of "the people" to vote for their leaders?) don't necessarily support our own leaders, ones who "we" never voted for, just because we don't support others when they beat defenceless citizens for protesting electoral fraud or decide to invade neighbouring countries like say, Georgia, on the pretext of defending their oppressed minorties. Is this straw man baiting the only tool you guys have left? If it is then at least give it a rest now and then, let others have a say now and then without having to deal with all the usual insinuations and dialectic dichotomies. Its really rather obvious now but still a waste of everyone's time.
Double post*
Good grief, Erik. I took special care to identify the position of all the parties in Parliament, from English Canada, and unless you're a Conservative supporter (which I doubt), I don't see why you should get your back up. The fact is, the Canadian labour movement's representatives managed some sort of expression of solidarity with thw Honduran workers. If the CLC can figure this stuff out, then so too can the party that you support, whatever party that is. Forgive me if I've overlooked the obvious (which party you support). I'm not about to apologize for critiquing any political party in Parliament and, in fact, the party that rightly claims more labour support than the other parties should, therefore, reciprocate in that support.
It's rather amusing, however, for you to drag in (a) imperialism in general, and (b) Georgia, and then claim that it's not you that's arguing from ideological imperatives but me.
Look, it's really simple. What's in the best interest of the workers, farmers, ordinary people? If you can assess this correctly, then you'll never go wrong. That's my view, anyway.
Do you mean to say your comments weren't directed at NDPers in general? Ok, I'll accept that here but lets be frank, this "what about our own transgressions...?" line has been used repeatedly here to defect attention from other cases of state aggression against citizens, including some I've seen on Georgia/Kartvelia. If you agree with me here that the Russian government should also pull their tanks out of Georgia now then you'll not only have my full solidarity, agreement and support, I will also apologise. To clarify once again, I and most NDPers I know have never supported any action taken by any government directed against defenceless citizens, including that taken by the US, Britain and their faithful servant Canada -especially Canada. (I have also just sent a note out to Layton asking him to post a stronger public condemnation than what the Conservatives have. Let's see if he's responsive to his own citizenry) I feel like I'm under seige myself, at times.
Well, it isn't an NDP board. Neither is it an anti-NDP board. AFAIK, the only sacred cows here are the basic babble principles: no homophobia, racism, misogyny, nor anti-labour bigotry in the labour section, etc.. It's a place to argue, among other things, principles. As an NDPer, it would probably serve you well to distinguish criticism of the NDP from the left (like me) and criticism of the NDP from the right (fill in the blank). The ones on the left should be, ceteribus paribus, more friendly. Of course, there's always the possibility of someone pretending to be on the left, or on the left of the NDP, when they're not. Politics is a dirty sport, after all, and for those unwilling to defend their views directly then the indirect kind is to be preferred.
I'm reluctant, in any case, to engage in ideological horse-trading as you've outlined. If you think my position on the role of Russia in last summer's war in the Caucuses stinks, then no amount of "splitting the difference" is going to remedy my "stinky" position. We're not doing collective bargaining, eh? Frankly, I think I can defend my position (the Russian tanks are, in fact, long gone) in any case. Do your best to blow me out of the water. I can take it. Just find the right thread, OK?
To be perfectly blunt, it's my view that the NDP, like the other parties in Parliament, as a party, is an easy target on many, many foreign policy questions. It's a consensus among the more left-wing babblers, e.g., that the position of the Liberals and the NDP on Israel/Palestine is virtually indistinguishable, with the Conservatives slightly to the right of both of them. All three parties have a lousy position, and that finds reflection in the public statements, the silencing of NDPers that express contrary or different views, and so on.
Anyway, where was I? Oh, yea, the NDP as an easy target. To make another long story short, why should a socialist apologize, or take a single step backwards, when presented with an opportunity to show why a genuinely socialist position is superior to any position of the parties currently in our Parliament? Aren't I supposed to explain why, in my opinion, my views are better than those of the party you support? Good grief, man, buck up and throw some punches.
Honduras coup is just the tip of the iceberg, who is next? The Guatemala Times
Will we wake up to a coup in Guatemala and El Salvador soon? It is more than possible. If you turn on your radio or TV in Guatemala and you hear marimba music and nothing else, you will know.
.
No its not horse trading Beltov, never said it was, and I agree its neither an NDp nor anti-NDp site, but I personally can't take double standards on the left regardless of what banal words Layton uses for our always banal scribes. I do however think the NDPs position is usually further to the left of the Liberals than they are to the Cons, even on foreign policy, but then thats part of this dialectical struggle too isn't it?
Speaking only for myself, criticising Layton, the NDP, or by extention NDPers in general for not taking a firmer stand against one form of imperialist agression, while refusing to take any stand ourselves against another is not good left-wise politics, even if one empire maybe somewhat better stocked militarily and happens to maintain better relationships with our own colonial elites. Undertstanding the ugly world of global politics isn't well served by looking only from our particular perspective.
Re Georgia, the tanks maybe gone but last I heard the occupation continues in parts and the division of ancient Kartvelia continues, while the no-longer Red Army remains nearby to keep the pressure on. Thanks for answering my question, even by not answering.
just popping in here to mention addendum to my last note from the conversation mentioned -
many people out here are on dial up, if they have an internet connection at all. some still use the library for that.
websites that have all kinds of ipod/ etc/large files cannot be even entered on dial up, or it takes so long that people give up.
maybe rabble has got a different setup now but i know there was a time when i was on dialup that i couldn't access it, or other sites, at all.
just wondering if anyone here has ever tested this now, from a dialup access.
Honduras, Washington and Liberal-left Grasping at Straws:
http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/21909
"Obama is implementing a US foreign policy that in some ways..or, I think in many ways--advances the interest of the American empire in a way the Republicans could only have dreamed of doing. What people I think misunderstand about Barack Obama is that this is a man who is a brilliant supporter of empire - who has figured out a way essentially to trick a lot of people into believing they're supporting radical change, when in effect what they're doing is supporting a radical expansion of the US empire. I think Obama is showing himself to be a master of misdirection - almost like a magician.."
A Coup is Not a Coup. A Not Coup is a Coup
http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22995.htm
"This coup has just upped the ante for all involved. And geopolitically, the stakes are equally high"
um, whatever you just did made it take even longer to get to babble active topics...
but what i was referring to in #90 was access to Rabble. i take it that you've found that initial access to the rabble website is fine now for dialup people. (i'm not on dialup, though i have a very lousy 'wireless' connection that actually connects to hydro wires down the line, so you'd have needed other input.)
anyway, back to subject at hand.
the articles linked at #91 look to be very useful from the quotes provided. will read.
good articles, thanks.
the info clearinghouse one has lots of useful detail on how the coup plotters got away with it, paralleling here manipulation of small farmer's distrust, among other tactics.
the zmag article was a useful linking summary tying Obama's 'say one thing if everyone else is, but do another' approach, to the global economic crash.
notably on the latter, even a former IMF economist said, quoted in the zmag item,
"recovery will fail unless we break the financial oligarchy that is blocking essential reform. And if we are to prevent a true depression, we're running out of time."
and Obama told the bankers who are getting bailouts at the expense of people and planet,
"My administration is the only thing between you [bankers] and the pitchforks"
___
the responsible action would be to allow natural consequences to follow banker bad behaviour and to set up instead fair economic systems for residents. Obama is doing neither. Just as he is not doing what needs to be done in the Honduran coup situation. As the infoclearinghouse item noted, Obama and Clinton's approach is to force an elected leader (Zelaya) to renegotiate policies in exile, 'over the barrel of a gun'.
the 'soft' approach is just slick, like oil.
Michael Parenti has 7 good reasons to suspect George W. Obama is lying about US involvement in the coup.
Plan Merida, a renovated US plan for neutralizing dissidents under cover of narco war may be relevent to the Honduran crisis
Hemispheric Conference Against Militarization Says No to Merida Initiatives, US Military Bases (Oct 17, 2008)
http://americas.irc-online.org/am/5605
"Final Declaration of the La Esperanza, Intibuca, Honduras, Oct 3-6 2008
As the capitalist system enters perhaps its worst crisis in history, the world faces crises on many fronts: financial, energy, food, environmental, social and political. Militarization has increased and its effects become more violent in an attempt of the system to control spaces and markets and natural resources...
In our hemisphere, militarization takes many forms. In the broad sense, military, institutional and police violence are part of a continuous escalation of repression, occupation and looting of natural resources.."
Shame on Canada - Coup Supporter
http://thetyee.ca/Views/2009/07/09/ShameOnCanada/
Why have we sided with the Honduran military? Mining profits. "They crave gold like hungry swine," Uruguayan journalist Eduardo Galeano has written of multinational mining firms.
Once again we're satan's little helper...
Pro-Democracy Marches Continue in Honduras
If they are really concerned about teaching democracy, then why not close the US Army "School" of the Americas and send people from these piss-poor thirdworld capitalist countries to real schools?
Creative Coup Opponents? No, just another nazi cheerleader: Pinochet's Daughter Backs Coup
http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/honduras-newspaper-impressed-d...
"they see the Pinochet coup of 36 years ago as a heroic act and long for the bad old days when they could simply stamp out democratic will by rounding up all dissidents into a stadium and assassinating more than 3,000 in a single week...it's another proof positive that they are trying to start that ball rolling all over again throughout the hemisphere."
that tyee article at #96 is pretty clear, and it's disgusting that our Canada Pension Plan money is funding the mining barons that destroy the earth and its peoples.
mining for gold, mining for radioactive and other killer minerals, for fossil fuels...public money used to prop up death and destruction at home and afar.
Peter Kent and the rest of the mirage from the underworld have got to go. it's really getting to be just too much. and add to that Harper's behaviour as pointed out at rabble, worst carbon polluter in the world. And Iggy has been vying for the tar sands title too.
anyway,
i was also going to say that the term 'governance' is increasingly being used to actually mean the private governance of corporations and finance. Many papers and institutions that promote improved 'governance' are actually promoting public-private-partnership models, which in fact give the reins of that 'partnership' to the private sector. There's nothing remotely democratic about it. Actual resident and civilian participation in determining policy is being reduced to zero, through the kind of legal and regulatory re-jigging that is going on now.
Long thread — Continue HERE