Cuba: A nation which would be PERFECT if it weren't for...

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Sven Sven's picture
Cuba: A nation which would be PERFECT if it weren't for...

          

                 

               

Sven Sven's picture

Well, I'll leave it to our Fidel to complete that sentence cuz he sure can't answer this incredibly simple and straight-forward question:

Is there any substantial action ever taken by Fidel Castro regarding which you have any significant criticism?

Sven Sven's picture

Fidel wrote:

Many of the progressive Cuba bashers will at least acknowledge that the U.S. has been a long-time hostile aggressor nation toward Cuba

I bet you won't find a single babbler who thinks that the US hasn't been "a long-time hostile aggressor nation toward Cuba".

Let's all take that as a given.

My simple question is: Is there any substantial action ever taken by Fidel Castro regarding which you have any significant criticism?

oldgoat

Sven, you're baiting. Fidel doesn't have to justify himeself to you like that. Cut it out. Thank you.

Fidel

... if it weren't for:

1. genocidal trade sanctions waged against Cuba from the mainland

2.  threats of terrorism from the mainland responsible for the deaths of as many Cubans as there were Americans who died on 9/11

3, an illegal US military occupation on the sovereign island nation of Cuba and representing a menace to democracy in the region in general

Many of the progressive Cuba bashers will at least acknowledge that the U.S. has been a long-time hostile aggressor nation toward Cuba, and that Cuba has a right to self rule and self-determination. And most of their criticisms lack an overall context when failing to describe Cuba as an island nation that has refused to accept outside political influence and US domination as US conditions for trading freely and other exchanges with the island

 

Fidel

 

Sven wrote:

Well, I'll leave it to our Fidel to complete that sentence cuz he sure can't answer this incredibly simple and straight-forward question:

Is there any substantial action ever taken by Fidel Castro regarding which you have any significant criticism?

Why should I not create a thread entitled: "What would make America a less war-like and more democratic and friendly nation post-cold war era and post-9/11?" 

...and then "buttress" that central thread idea with a question that asks: Is there any substantial action ever taken by Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, doctor and madman, Carter, Reagan, either of the crazy Georges, or Clinton which Sven might be vaguely critical of? And remember that as Fidel is retired from politics today, so are none of those US presidents heading up US cosmetic government in the here and now no matter how much it still feels like the cold war baloney is still alive and well. Today it's Barack and Raul and all that baggage that went before them.

remind remind's picture

and this thread is still open why?

Fidel

As far as very many Americans are concerned, there is no cold war history. It never happened. And Cuba shouldn't even exist today. But it did happen and Cuba just is. Socialist Cuba is a thorn in the side of rightwing ideologues who thought it possible to kill an idea over the last 70 years. And there is nothing more terrifying for the vicious empire than an idea that refuses to wither die like so much Chicago School free market fundamentalism on the wane today.

Sven Sven's picture

Fidel wrote:

Why should I not create a thread entitled: "What would make America a less war-like and more democratic and friendly nation post-cold war era and post-9/11?" 

I'm sure you'd get a good response to such a thread, my friend...even an imperialist Yanqui such as myself could certainly give you some self-critical thoughts on the subject, in contrast to some people I know (wink - wink - nudge - nudge)

Sven Sven's picture

Fidel wrote:

Socialist Cuba is a thorn in the side of rightwing ideologues who thought it possible to kill an idea over the last 70 years. And there is nothing more terrifying for the vicious empire than an idea that refuses to wither die like so much Chicago School free market fundamentalism on the wane today.

Hey, I've long supported the lifting of the idiotic sanctions against Cuba.  And, if the people of Cuba, in free, fair, and open elections (and that doesn't include one-party rule, sorry, Fidel), want socialism, then I think that's just great.  I wish 'em the very best of luck.

 

Sven Sven's picture

Please correct me if I'm wrong, Fidel, but I think your Post #10 falls squarely within the scope of "Answer I", no?

Fidel

Sven wrote:
And, if the people of Cuba, in free, fair, and open elections (and that doesn't include one-party rule, sorry, Fidel), want socialism, then I think that's just great.  I wish 'em the very best of luck.

Sven, what's the difference between one party rule and the USA's charade for democracy with two-party rule? Are two parties representing billionaire interests twice as democratic as one?

How does the fact that a tiny billionaire oligarchy in the U.S. pre-selects a grand total of two presidential candidates by virtue of multi-million dollar campaign funding supposed to help or even impress Cubans enough that they would want to allow the US to impose that kind of dollar democracy on Cubans?

Cuba has elections every two years. Cubans vote for deputies to the National Assembly and delegates to provincial assemblies to be elected by direct and secret ballot as are delegates elected to municipal assemblies in the same manner. Cubans vote for Cubans all the time, and any Cuban national can run for election. Their democratic voices are not silenced by a lack of Wall Street financing whether they are card carrying members of Cuba's communist party or not.

U.S. money isn't allowed in Cuban elections, Sven.  I know that sounds totally alien to someone like you. That's just the way it is in Cuba though. Free elections, Sven? Your country and mine should try that some time, too. Because apparently voter turnouts in our countries are down around where Fiji, Benin, and capitalist India's voter turnouts are ranked in the world. How can Cubans be impressed with such low approval rates for our tin pot dollar democracies? Because once our tin pots in Ottawa and Toronto are propped-up with 22 percent of the registered vote, they just don't listen to what the other 78 percent of the electorate has to say and don't care much about it either for four years at a time until the next two party stooge-off.

Sven Sven's picture

Fidel wrote:

Your two candidates for cosmetic leadership are always-always pre-selected beforehand by a billionaire oligarchy. Ordinary Americans have no say in the matter.

Well, that one is easy: It falls squarely within the confines of "Answer I"...

Fidel

Your two candidates for cosmetic leadership are always-always pre-selected beforehand by a billionaire oligarchy. Ordinary Americans have no say in the matter.

Fidel

Dollar democracy is like a shell game with only two shells, and nobody wins except the guys taking bets. You've been had for years and years. It's crooked, Sven.. Cubans don't want or need that kind of system.

Dollar democracy is an oxymoron. Money has no place in the democratic process. We don't allow sports teams to hand money to the refs. Why do we allow it in our political process? It's one big con every election, and the people have no alternative but to play along with the charade. But your elections are especially rigged. It's a real circus.

Sven Sven's picture

Fidel wrote:

 

Money has no place in the democratic process. We don't allow sports teams to hand money to the refs. Why do we allow it in our political process?

I'm gonna guess that that's within the classification of "Answer II".

Fidel wrote:

It's one big con every election, and the people have no alternative but to play along with the charade. But your elections are especially rigged. It's a real circus.

 

That looks like yet another "Answer I".

Fidel

So when do you think fair and democratic elections will happen in America and Canada, Sven? When will we realize that dictatorial rule by a tiny handful of powerful elites in our countries produces so many bad decisions with our economies and dragging us into war after war after war? They don't have any warmongering plutocrats in Havana, Sven. And maybe that's an advantage their system has over our corrupt dollar democracies.

Sven Sven's picture

Fidel wrote:

So when do you think fair and democratic elections will happen in America and Canada, Sven? When will we realize that dictatorial rule by a tiny handful of powerful elites in our countries produces so many bad decisions with our economies and dragging us into war after war after war?

You just managed a modest miracle: You actually combined "Answer I" and "Answer II" in each of those two sentences.

Congratulations!

West Coast Greeny

For mods: I want this thread to continue. The spirit of progressivism involves the constant challenging and re-evaluation of ideas, does it not?

wage zombie

Sven -- the issue here is that historically Cuba has been the victim of the US Imperial game.  Generally criticizing victims is low on people's priority list.

Imagine if you will a co worker loses his spouse to a long, painful cancer.  Nobody at work will be making jokes about his b.o. no matter how bad he may smell.  It would be in extremely poor taste.

So I am not surprised that you're not finding anyone to play along with your little game.  Your country fucks shit up for Cuba and then you want to put the focus on Cuba's bad choices.  Hey maybe next we can talk about all the dumb moves that Haiti's done.  You think that would be in good taste?

Sven Sven's picture

wage zombie wrote:

Sven -- the issue here is that historically Cuba has been the victim of the US Imperial game.  Generally criticizing victims is low on people's priority list.

Actually, the issue in the most-recently-closed Cuba-related thread had to do with the death of a Cuban political prisoner.

In gallant, but predictable, form, our Fidel eagerly defended everything Cuban.  So, I asked him if there there is anything that the Castrol regime has ever done of any consequence regarding which our Fidel has any significant criticism.

The answer? A thunderous "No!!!"

Fidel

I've stated before what I think happened to the hunger striking dissident Tamayo. Apparently that's not good enough for Sven. Fidel and Chavez and Morales are all evol tyrants as far as Sven is concerned, and there will be no reasoning with him otherwise. Sven's ears are covered and chanting "la la la la la la la I can't HEAR you!!!" Sven thinks we're all demonically possessed,  or something, because we care far too much about the intricacies and fine details of actual democracy and not the bullshit version we are fed every day by our corporatized Matrix-like sci-fi movie world in 3-D.

Sven's mind, like that of so many Americans and Canadians,  is a closed economy of sorts, like the US and Can-Am Military-industrial complex budget is not debatable in Congress or Parliament year after year, or the soft budgets on social spending for the rich etc. It's all trust and obey and wrap ourselves in the flag as far some of us are concerned and which isn't very. The red pill is just too difficult for some to swallow and causes nausea, vomiting, dimentia, high fever and even nightmares for some people. The blue pill, otoh,  induces feelings of bliss and total mind-body disconnection with what's really happening.

Doug

Fidel wrote:

I've stated before what I think happened to the hunger striking dissident Tamayo. Apparently that's not good enough for Sven. Fidel and Chavez and Morales are all evol tyrants

 

No, just Fidel - even though he's kind of evil-light compared to some. The other two face electoral competition

Fidel

Richard Madman Nixon faced electoral competition. So did the crazy Georges in recent times. And so did Hitler have electoral competition, but only after rich bankers and industrialists propped-up him and his party did Adolf stand a chance for election.

Whether they are dictators installed by an elite few or dictators who seize power forcefully, one of the two types of dictators last only as long as the people are unwilling to overthrow them through rebellion. The US Military and CIA have had to intervene in Haiti and other countries many times to prop-up Uncle Sam's brutal rightwing dictators and tyrants over the years.

And the US-CIA has known since Bay of Pigs that there is no will among Cubans for regime change in Havana. It's why the US Government has resorted to supporting Miami-based terrorism against Cuba, dirty tricks and ordering more than six hundred mafia-CIA hits on Fidel and to no avail. If only US-backed tyrants from Chiang Kai-shek to Fulgencio Batista and Pinochet were as popular among the people, they'd have been in power a lot longer than they were. Cost of supporting tyrants and despots around the world would have been much cheaper for US taxpayers over the years. History reveals that vicious empires don't last though due to rising costs and usury, intolerable rule and corruption. At some point the capitalist system will only survive by military dictatorship and police state, and which they are contemplating now.

What the right has promised billions of people around the world is middle class capitalism based on consumption, two cars in every garage and mini-mansions, the chance to become millionaires for relative handful few etc. And socialists have made much smaller and more realistic promises for health care for all, education, jobs and basic housing. Billions still await a capitalist economic long run that can not possibly materialize for the vast majority of them. The cold war era promise of middle class capitalism for the other 85% of humanity was a colossal lie. People will slowly come to realize it.

NDPP

the glob did an editorial on Zapata Tamayo:

Cuba's Other Face:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/editorials/cubas-other-face...

"Amnesty International called Zapata's death a 'terrible illustration of the despair facing prisoners of conscience who see no hope of being freed from their unfair and prolonged incarceration.' The Human Rights group called for the immediate release of prisoners of conscience, and said a full investigation must be carried out to establish whether ill treatment played a role in the case of Mr. Zapata.."

Slumberjack

What would mornings be without the grope and flail to set the record straight.

Maysie Maysie's picture

Hey Sven. After being told by oldgoat at post #4 to stop baiting, you continued to bait Fidel for an additional 7 posts. #8, #9, #11, #13, #15, #17 and #20.

Enjoy your week off.

Snert Snert's picture

Quote:

Imagine if you will a co worker loses his spouse to a long, painful cancer.  Nobody at work will be making jokes about his b.o. no matter how bad he may smell.  It would be in extremely poor taste.

 

What if it's found that he hits his wife. Is it OK to mention it, or would that also be in poor taste? Can we say that's not OK, or does his cancer trump that in some kind of false dilemma?

Snert Snert's picture
Fidel

Yikes! Oh that was just Sven being Sven. He's okay.

Hey Sven, Crosby from Iginla in OT eh. he he[/trolling]

Caissa

Cuba: A nation which would be PERFECT if it weren't for... Sven.

Doug

I think we can all agree that losing the hurricanes would help.

Fidel

Cuba needs to connect with a group of countries that actually believe in and practices free trade without attaching political influence and mafia-like conditions for being accepted into the fold. Because if human rights were a real an issue between Uncle Sam and all the richest countries recycling US dollars and financing US imperialism, overconsumption habit and cheap fossil fuel addiction, the USSA would be in a heap of trouble from just about every angle. And that day could well be coming soon with the ongoing US dollar glut spreading inflation to the enabler countries. And the truth is that the nuclear-powered USSA represents the largest threat to democracy everywhere around the world today. It's time to introduce war criminals to the people's justice, and trade sanctions would go a long way to repairing the situation of world justice denied for too long. Trade sanctions by Canada alone would be enough to bring vicious empire central its knees. War criminals would be arraigned tomorrow if that was ever the case. And I think this leftwing project would be far more effective in the end than focussing on Israeli apartheid. It's a noble cause, but there really is just one way to deal with the world bully, and that is to focus directly on the vicious empire's central location of operations itself.

I know I've said before that I don't believe in trade sanctions. And I still don't. South Africa was a victory for the left, but neocolonialism is still an ongoing problem in Africa today and genocides still perpetrated all over Africa by the vicious empire and its proxy nations. If the left is going to promote divestment and sanctions, why not do it right and go for the gold medal? Why be satisfied with stamping out one fire among far too many raging out of control around the world? Why not wage a concentrated effort against the main culprits and orchestrators of global imperialism? The doctor and the madman got away with orchestrating mass murder of millions. When will it end?

wage zombie

Snert wrote:

What if it's found that he hits his wife. Is it OK to mention it, or would that also be in poor taste? Can we say that's not OK, or does his cancer trump that in some kind of false dilemma?

He doesn't have cancer, his dead wife did (the one you're claiming he "hits"--great sense of taste there Snert).  You're so trigger happy that you're skipping over the words you're reading.  You flubbed your opportunity to look clever.

Snert Snert's picture

Very well.  Let my point be discarded, as per the rules.

Fidel

 ...if it wasn't for doctor evol running the place

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v697/rabblerabble/dr-evil2.jpg[/IMG]

Welcome to my lair of evol.

Polly B Polly B's picture

Fidel wrote:

Yikes! Oh that was just Sven being Sven. He's okay.

Hey Sven, Crosby from Iginla in OT eh. he he[/trolling]

 

For the record I agree with Fidel here.  I thought Sven was just well, being svennish.  And Fidel doesn't usually need rescuing.

NDPP

Fidel Castro Defends Treatment of Dead Dissident:

http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=353106&CategoryId=14510

"Fidel Castro and Cuba's state media monopoly have confronted international and opposition criticisms of the Cuban government following last week's death of political prisoner Orlando Zapata Tamayo after an 85 day hunger strike:

'In our case we have never tortured anyone, we have never ordered an adversary killed, we have never lied to the people," the retired Cuban President said.."

Caissa

This thread reminded me of this old ditty. I can't seem to find the rest of the lyrics on the internet.

We ain't got no capitalists in Albania,

We ain't got no corporate tentacles

No multi-nationals mar our misty mountains

And we think Enver Hoxha's pretty swell.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Cuba would be perfect if it pioneered a new and innovative syndicalist movement.  Cuba would be decimated by allowing the western facade of democracy; just ask the people duped by the various American backed multicolored "democracy revolutions." I personally would love to live in a country where major economic decisions were made democratically.  Most Canadians I think would agree.  

Cubans appear to by and large just peacefully go abut their businesses giving nominal support to their government because it engages in a facade of "democracy."  I don't see much difference in the legitimacy of their system compared to ours.  They both allow the ruling elite to make the important decisions. The real difference is that in Canada our leaders have to phone Washington first.

Fidel

kropotkin1951 wrote:
. The real difference is that in Canada our leaders have to phone Washington first.
 Laughing And just look at how well Haiti and Honduras and El Salvador and Guatemala are doing. Shining exampels of US-managed democracies for sure. The Cubans make sure to let everyone on the island know just how democratic and prosperous they are in US-managed Haiti just 55 miles away. It works so well that the US-CIA doesn't bother with anymore Bay of Pigs fiascos, because the Yanks know that Cubans are going to welcome them with open arms. Some day. Not today mind us, but sometime when this latest capitalist crisis is over and the US system, with its prosperous and democratic backyard surrounding Cuba on all sides, might appeal to Cubans more than it has at any time during the cold war and today.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

How was it that, just by looking at the thread title, I could GUESS that this was a Sven thread?

 

 

George Victor

Sven's reply with be forthcoming on March 9 (or sometime thereafter).  Can't wait.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

BTW, Sven, why does Fidel owe it to YOU to criticize Cuba?

I mean, fine, there are grounds for criticism and there's room for improvement.  But do you really believe that Cuba is the most oppressive place on the planet?

(the North Koreans and Saudis would likely take issue with that, for openers.)

And why, precisely, can you NOT let this go?

Why ARE you doing a Joe McCarthy/HUAC imitation in this thread?

(on edit)

Obviously, you can answer all that once you get out of the Babble penalty box.

Snert Snert's picture

Sven is on an involuntary 7 day sabbatical right now, but I'll take a stab on his behalf.  Like most American conservative types, Sven can't wait for the rapture, and if you read between the lines in Revelations, Fidel answering a direct question simply and plainly is the Third Seal of the Apocalypse.  For what it's worth, Maysie's suspension of Sven may have prevented End Times!

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Thanks Maysie!

We'd ALL have been "Left Behind!"

George Victor

Snert wrote:

Sven is on an involuntary 7 day sabbatical right now, but I'll take a stab on his behalf.  Like most American conservative types, Sven can't wait for the rapture, and if you read between the lines in Revelations, Fidel answering a direct question simply and plainly is the Third Seal of the Apocalypse.  For what it's worth, Maysie's suspension of Sven may have prevented End Times!

Given his firm atheistic position, this is going to prompt a second coming for Sven for sure.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Sven is the Messiah?

 

Fidel

ha ha

Caissa

My understanding is that Sven is closer to Cuba than most of us this week.Wink

Sven Sven's picture

Caissa wrote:

My understanding is that Sven is closer to Cuba than most of us this week.Wink

Yeah, just like Sarah Palin can "see" Russia from her back door in Alaska, maybe I can "see" Cuba from Ft Myers... Tongue out

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