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Cuba: A nation which would be PERFECT if it weren't for...

Sven
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Joined: Jul 22 2005

          

                 

               


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Sven
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Joined: Jul 22 2005

Well, I'll leave it to our Fidel to complete that sentence cuz he sure can't answer this incredibly simple and straight-forward question:

Is there any substantial action ever taken by Fidel Castro regarding which you have any significant criticism?


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

... if it weren't for:

1. genocidal trade sanctions waged against Cuba from the mainland

2.  threats of terrorism from the mainland responsible for the deaths of as many Cubans as there were Americans who died on 9/11

3, an illegal US military occupation on the sovereign island nation of Cuba and representing a menace to democracy in the region in general

Many of the progressive Cuba bashers will at least acknowledge that the U.S. has been a long-time hostile aggressor nation toward Cuba, and that Cuba has a right to self rule and self-determination. And most of their criticisms lack an overall context when failing to describe Cuba as an island nation that has refused to accept outside political influence and US domination as US conditions for trading freely and other exchanges with the island

 


Sven
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Joined: Jul 22 2005

Fidel wrote:

Many of the progressive Cuba bashers will at least acknowledge that the U.S. has been a long-time hostile aggressor nation toward Cuba

I bet you won't find a single babbler who thinks that the US hasn't been "a long-time hostile aggressor nation toward Cuba".

Let's all take that as a given.

My simple question is: Is there any substantial action ever taken by Fidel Castro regarding which you have any significant criticism?


oldgoat
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Joined: Jul 27 2001
Sven, you're baiting. Fidel doesn't have to justify himeself to you like that. Cut it out. Thank you.

Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

 

Sven wrote:

Well, I'll leave it to our Fidel to complete that sentence cuz he sure can't answer this incredibly simple and straight-forward question:

Is there any substantial action ever taken by Fidel Castro regarding which you have any significant criticism?

Why should I not create a thread entitled: "What would make America a less war-like and more democratic and friendly nation post-cold war era and post-9/11?" 

...and then "buttress" that central thread idea with a question that asks: Is there any substantial action ever taken by Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, doctor and madman, Carter, Reagan, either of the crazy Georges, or Clinton which Sven might be vaguely critical of? And remember that as Fidel is retired from politics today, so are none of those US presidents heading up US cosmetic government in the here and now no matter how much it still feels like the cold war baloney is still alive and well. Today it's Barack and Raul and all that baggage that went before them.


remind
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Joined: Jun 25 2004

and this thread is still open why?


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

As far as very many Americans are concerned, there is no cold war history. It never happened. And Cuba shouldn't even exist today. But it did happen and Cuba just is. Socialist Cuba is a thorn in the side of rightwing ideologues who thought it possible to kill an idea over the last 70 years. And there is nothing more terrifying for the vicious empire than an idea that refuses to wither die like so much Chicago School free market fundamentalism on the wane today.


Sven
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Joined: Jul 22 2005

Fidel wrote:

Why should I not create a thread entitled: "What would make America a less war-like and more democratic and friendly nation post-cold war era and post-9/11?" 

I'm sure you'd get a good response to such a thread, my friend...even an imperialist Yanqui such as myself could certainly give you some self-critical thoughts on the subject, in contrast to some people I know (wink - wink - nudge - nudge)


Sven
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Joined: Jul 22 2005

Fidel wrote:

Socialist Cuba is a thorn in the side of rightwing ideologues who thought it possible to kill an idea over the last 70 years. And there is nothing more terrifying for the vicious empire than an idea that refuses to wither die like so much Chicago School free market fundamentalism on the wane today.

Hey, I've long supported the lifting of the idiotic sanctions against Cuba.  And, if the people of Cuba, in free, fair, and open elections (and that doesn't include one-party rule, sorry, Fidel), want socialism, then I think that's just great.  I wish 'em the very best of luck.

 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Sven wrote:
And, if the people of Cuba, in free, fair, and open elections (and that doesn't include one-party rule, sorry, Fidel), want socialism, then I think that's just great.  I wish 'em the very best of luck.

Sven, what's the difference between one party rule and the USA's charade for democracy with two-party rule? Are two parties representing billionaire interests twice as democratic as one?

How does the fact that a tiny billionaire oligarchy in the U.S. pre-selects a grand total of two presidential candidates by virtue of multi-million dollar campaign funding supposed to help or even impress Cubans enough that they would want to allow the US to impose that kind of dollar democracy on Cubans?

Cuba has elections every two years. Cubans vote for deputies to the National Assembly and delegates to provincial assemblies to be elected by direct and secret ballot as are delegates elected to municipal assemblies in the same manner. Cubans vote for Cubans all the time, and any Cuban national can run for election. Their democratic voices are not silenced by a lack of Wall Street financing whether they are card carrying members of Cuba's communist party or not.

U.S. money isn't allowed in Cuban elections, Sven.  I know that sounds totally alien to someone like you. That's just the way it is in Cuba though. Free elections, Sven? Your country and mine should try that some time, too. Because apparently voter turnouts in our countries are down around where Fiji, Benin, and capitalist India's voter turnouts are ranked in the world. How can Cubans be impressed with such low approval rates for our tin pot dollar democracies? Because once our tin pots in Ottawa and Toronto are propped-up with 22 percent of the registered vote, they just don't listen to what the other 78 percent of the electorate has to say and don't care much about it either for four years at a time until the next two party stooge-off.


Sven
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Joined: Jul 22 2005

Please correct me if I'm wrong, Fidel, but I think your Post #10 falls squarely within the scope of "Answer I", no?


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Your two candidates for cosmetic leadership are always-always pre-selected beforehand by a billionaire oligarchy. Ordinary Americans have no say in the matter.


Sven
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Joined: Jul 22 2005

Fidel wrote:

Your two candidates for cosmetic leadership are always-always pre-selected beforehand by a billionaire oligarchy. Ordinary Americans have no say in the matter.

Well, that one is easy: It falls squarely within the confines of "Answer I"...


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Dollar democracy is like a shell game with only two shells, and nobody wins except the guys taking bets. You've been had for years and years. It's crooked, Sven.. Cubans don't want or need that kind of system.

Dollar democracy is an oxymoron. Money has no place in the democratic process. We don't allow sports teams to hand money to the refs. Why do we allow it in our political process? It's one big con every election, and the people have no alternative but to play along with the charade. But your elections are especially rigged. It's a real circus.


Sven
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Joined: Jul 22 2005

Fidel wrote:

 

Money has no place in the democratic process. We don't allow sports teams to hand money to the refs. Why do we allow it in our political process?

I'm gonna guess that that's within the classification of "Answer II".

Fidel wrote:

It's one big con every election, and the people have no alternative but to play along with the charade. But your elections are especially rigged. It's a real circus.

 

That looks like yet another "Answer I".


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

So when do you think fair and democratic elections will happen in America and Canada, Sven? When will we realize that dictatorial rule by a tiny handful of powerful elites in our countries produces so many bad decisions with our economies and dragging us into war after war after war? They don't have any warmongering plutocrats in Havana, Sven. And maybe that's an advantage their system has over our corrupt dollar democracies.


Sven
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Joined: Jul 22 2005

Fidel wrote:

So when do you think fair and democratic elections will happen in America and Canada, Sven? When will we realize that dictatorial rule by a tiny handful of powerful elites in our countries produces so many bad decisions with our economies and dragging us into war after war after war?

You just managed a modest miracle: You actually combined "Answer I" and "Answer II" in each of those two sentences.

Congratulations!


West Coast Greeny
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Joined: Sep 14 2004

For mods: I want this thread to continue. The spirit of progressivism involves the constant challenging and re-evaluation of ideas, does it not?


wage zombie
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Joined: Dec 8 2004

Sven -- the issue here is that historically Cuba has been the victim of the US Imperial game.  Generally criticizing victims is low on people's priority list.

Imagine if you will a co worker loses his spouse to a long, painful cancer.  Nobody at work will be making jokes about his b.o. no matter how bad he may smell.  It would be in extremely poor taste.

So I am not surprised that you're not finding anyone to play along with your little game.  Your country fucks shit up for Cuba and then you want to put the focus on Cuba's bad choices.  Hey maybe next we can talk about all the dumb moves that Haiti's done.  You think that would be in good taste?


Sven
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Joined: Jul 22 2005

wage zombie wrote:

Sven -- the issue here is that historically Cuba has been the victim of the US Imperial game.  Generally criticizing victims is low on people's priority list.

Actually, the issue in the most-recently-closed Cuba-related thread had to do with the death of a Cuban political prisoner.

In gallant, but predictable, form, our Fidel eagerly defended everything Cuban.  So, I asked him if there there is anything that the Castrol regime has ever done of any consequence regarding which our Fidel has any significant criticism.

The answer? A thunderous "No!!!"


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

I've stated before what I think happened to the hunger striking dissident Tamayo. Apparently that's not good enough for Sven. Fidel and Chavez and Morales are all evol tyrants as far as Sven is concerned, and there will be no reasoning with him otherwise. Sven's ears are covered and chanting "la la la la la la la I can't HEAR you!!!" Sven thinks we're all demonically possessed,  or something, because we care far too much about the intricacies and fine details of actual democracy and not the bullshit version we are fed every day by our corporatized Matrix-like sci-fi movie world in 3-D.

Sven's mind, like that of so many Americans and Canadians,  is a closed economy of sorts, like the US and Can-Am Military-industrial complex budget is not debatable in Congress or Parliament year after year, or the soft budgets on social spending for the rich etc. It's all trust and obey and wrap ourselves in the flag as far some of us are concerned and which isn't very. The red pill is just too difficult for some to swallow and causes nausea, vomiting, dimentia, high fever and even nightmares for some people. The blue pill, otoh,  induces feelings of bliss and total mind-body disconnection with what's really happening.


Doug
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Joined: Apr 17 2001

Fidel wrote:

I've stated before what I think happened to the hunger striking dissident Tamayo. Apparently that's not good enough for Sven. Fidel and Chavez and Morales are all evol tyrants

 

No, just Fidel - even though he's kind of evil-light compared to some. The other two face electoral competition


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Richard Madman Nixon faced electoral competition. So did the crazy Georges in recent times. And so did Hitler have electoral competition, but only after rich bankers and industrialists propped-up him and his party did Adolf stand a chance for election.

Whether they are dictators installed by an elite few or dictators who seize power forcefully, one of the two types of dictators last only as long as the people are unwilling to overthrow them through rebellion. The US Military and CIA have had to intervene in Haiti and other countries many times to prop-up Uncle Sam's brutal rightwing dictators and tyrants over the years.

And the US-CIA has known since Bay of Pigs that there is no will among Cubans for regime change in Havana. It's why the US Government has resorted to supporting Miami-based terrorism against Cuba, dirty tricks and ordering more than six hundred mafia-CIA hits on Fidel and to no avail. If only US-backed tyrants from Chiang Kai-shek to Fulgencio Batista and Pinochet were as popular among the people, they'd have been in power a lot longer than they were. Cost of supporting tyrants and despots around the world would have been much cheaper for US taxpayers over the years. History reveals that vicious empires don't last though due to rising costs and usury, intolerable rule and corruption. At some point the capitalist system will only survive by military dictatorship and police state, and which they are contemplating now.

What the right has promised billions of people around the world is middle class capitalism based on consumption, two cars in every garage and mini-mansions, the chance to become millionaires for relative handful few etc. And socialists have made much smaller and more realistic promises for health care for all, education, jobs and basic housing. Billions still await a capitalist economic long run that can not possibly materialize for the vast majority of them. The cold war era promise of middle class capitalism for the other 85% of humanity was a colossal lie. People will slowly come to realize it.


NDPP
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Joined: Dec 28 2008

the glob did an editorial on Zapata Tamayo:

Cuba's Other Face:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/editorials/cubas-other-face...

"Amnesty International called Zapata's death a 'terrible illustration of the despair facing prisoners of conscience who see no hope of being freed from their unfair and prolonged incarceration.' The Human Rights group called for the immediate release of prisoners of conscience, and said a full investigation must be carried out to establish whether ill treatment played a role in the case of Mr. Zapata.."


Slumberjack
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Joined: Aug 8 2005

What would mornings be without the grope and flail to set the record straight.


Maysie
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Joined: Apr 21 2005

Hey Sven. After being told by oldgoat at post #4 to stop baiting, you continued to bait Fidel for an additional 7 posts. #8, #9, #11, #13, #15, #17 and #20.

Enjoy your week off.


Snert
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Joined: Nov 4 2008

Quote:

Imagine if you will a co worker loses his spouse to a long, painful cancer.  Nobody at work will be making jokes about his b.o. no matter how bad he may smell.  It would be in extremely poor taste.

 

What if it's found that he hits his wife. Is it OK to mention it, or would that also be in poor taste? Can we say that's not OK, or does his cancer trump that in some kind of false dilemma?


Snert
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Joined: Nov 4 2008


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Yikes! Oh that was just Sven being Sven. He's okay.

Hey Sven, Crosby from Iginla in OT eh. he he[/trolling]


Caissa
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Joined: Jun 14 2006

Cuba: A nation which would be PERFECT if it weren't for... Sven.


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