democratic Taiwan >> democratic China? (Taiwan-China relations)

First, I want to say that my basic hope and desire is for true and robust peace for all people in the so-called "greater China region," which includes Taiwan, Hong Kong, East Turkestan, Inner Mongolia and Tibet (and extending to the whole Himalayan watershed, so a large chunk of humanity). The means to real peace is true, robust and deep democracy - a work in progress around the world.

I hope the apparent lack of interest in the previous thread was not due to the effectiveness of PRC propaganda, which is attempting to instill as a foregone conclusion around the world the idea that China will inevitably take Taiwan "back," as it did the British colony of Hong Kong.

And I hope people do not assume that all "Chinese" people ought to be united in one political entity. This would be really quite racist.
Why isn't Austria a part of Germany? Why not unify Australia and New Zealand, and why doesn't the US naturally absorb Canada? Why aren't the seven Central American countries states of Mexico? And on and on.

In practice Taiwan is a fully functioning sovereign independent state. What it lacks is widespread international recognition, due to China's (and formerly Taiwan's) insistence that countries recognize either China or Taiwan, but not both. Overwhelmingly, the people in Taiwan have no wish to become a mere province in a vastly more complex state.

Taiwan's democracy is young and has its problems, but it is a democracy nonetheless. Taiwan was ranked 32nd least corrupt in the world by Transparency International's 2011 corruption perception index (third in Asia behind Hong Kong and Japan), compared to China, ranked 75th. Other recent ranking comparisons: Global Peace Index-Taiwan trending up to 27th, China trending down to 80th; HDI-Tw 22nd, PRC 101st. Taiwan enjoys a good quality of life, safe streets, and famously friendly people. So why would this functioning democracy wish to join the PRC? Just because China can put a person into Earth orbit and win a big stack of medals at the Olympics?

Aside from the morass of legal arguments regarding Taiwan's status, these other factors must also be considered:

-memories in China of being effectively colonized and humiliated by Japan and western powers not too long ago. This one has to be respected.

-the Chinese central government's own mythology of being the grand guardian of an ethnically uniform race, that proudly marches in lockstep with the leadership. Combine this with the cultural imperative to save face, and the Chinese central government has painted itself into a very small corner with its own propaganda on Taiwan.

-the historical and political reality that China is composed of regions that have fallen apart and been reunified many times over. Regionalism and infighting is a constant possibility within China, as with any such large entity. The central government's paranoid iron grip on power results from the fear of having wedges driven into fault lines that will always exist. "Losing" Taiwan could be taken as a sign of central government weakness by internal factions.

-Taiwan has the misfortune of being geostrategically vital. Important shipping lanes to Japan pass through the Taiwan Strait. General MacArthur accurately called Taiwan "an unsinkable aircraft carrier" from which the mainland could be attacked and a Chinese navy, when one is built, could be bottled up. Taiwan would be obvious strategic high ground in any major conflict with China, on its critical eastern flank. In any major conflict involving China, Taiwan would likely become a battleground by virtue of its location, regardless of the will of its inhabitants. Put Cuba lengthwise north-south,180 km off the coast of North Carolina, and see if the US wouldn't think about asserting control over it, just to feel more secure against foreign threats. If Taiwan is to achieve a lasting independence, it will have to deal with these entirely legitimate security concerns, and allay China's reasonable fears of aggression being launched against it via Taiwan. Democratic Taiwan has to prove itself as helping China, not threatening it.

Taiwan is a democratic country with de facto independence. Taiwan's wish for an internationally recognized independence from China need not be perceived by the PRC as a rejection or act of antagonism. But the PRC's continued shrill, narrow and inflexible rhetoric cannot help but make it seem as such. If only Taiwan's democracy could be strengthened and help China's. True, robust, deep democracy is a work in progress around the world.

It exists at the pleasure of the United States and its existence is guaranteed by threats of war on the part of the U.S.:

[my emphasis]

From Section 3301(b) of the United States Code, "Taiwan Relations Act"

Without that, Taiwan would be as fully functioning, sovereign, and independent as Tibet.

Well, for a few decades, China's seat in the U.N. and the Security Council was held by... wait for it... Taiwan! Today, the overwhelming majority of countries in the world recognize Taiwan as being part of China and the government in Beijing as being the government of China. I see that as progress. Apparently you don't.

If that's true, let them take whatever lawful and peaceful measures they like to alter their internationally recognized juridical status - which is precisely one of being a province of China. Once they team up with the benevolent thermonuclear umbrella of the United States, they lose my sympathy.

Did Transparency International take into account, in its analysis of "corruption", the multi-billion dollar arms sales by Bush and Obama to Taiwan in the last couple of years? Or is that considered just business as usual?

I agree with the sentiment behind this statement. As far as I know there are no American nuclear weapons in Taiwan territory. I also find it reprehensible that Taiwan be used as a frontline US proxy against China.

I think TI would take that as an above-the-board BAU activity. I do see what you're getting at. But did I say anywhere in the above posts that I'm in favor of an arms race between the two sides of the Taiwan Strait? I'd personally like to see global disarmament.

Taiwan is a province of China. If the Taiwanese people (and yes, by that I really do mean the indigenous population) want independence, they should pursue it by whatever means they wish. I have heard of no such struggle, but I'm no expert on the region and am always prepared to be enlightened. As for the province of Taiwan separating from China and being recognized as a state - and that's very very different from the Taiwanese people seeking self-determination - I'm more inclined to a Hong Kong solution.

And no, I didn't accuse you of being anti-China or pro-U.S. or any of the rest of it.

Taiwan may perhaps be a province of China, but it is one over which the People's Republic has no de facto jurisdiction whatsoever. In other words, it is in every practical sense a sovereign state, except that most states are dancing around the notion of official recognition so as not to upset the apple cart.

And Fidel, it already is a cold war. with the lines having been drawn on both sides. That is why many support the status quo rather than the bloody alternative.

As I said Fidel, it is a cold war. But while calling it a province might just be correct according to what most states have agreed on to keep the peace, it really does not tell the whole story.

I think that the US-led NATO group of heavily armed countries are not satisfied to be the innocent party in all of this. They have clearly been the aggressors since 1991.

The next coveted item on Taiwan's military shopping list are the new F-16C/D's. You tend to want to defend yourself when you know you have missiles pointed at you. But no arms sales can build a lasting and true peace; they are actually the antithesis of it. More imagination is needed , absolutely.

Can you name one single state that does not consider Taiwan to be a province of China? Because that's what you said, and that's what I asked. Even the regime in Taipei considers Taiwan to be an indivisible part of China.

The People's Republic of China has long officially held that it has no objection to other countries having trade relations with the Taipei regime - only diplomatic relations.

But I'd be very interested to know if there are any states that view Taiwan and China as separate countries. Feel free to send me another link.

That's quite outmoded, the thinking of the "regime in Taipei" has long been shifting on this position. The "regime in Taipei" has been democratically elected since 1996, and has experienced 2 peaceful changeovers of power since then, with another national election coming up next month. You would be hard-pressed to find Taiwan citizens who froth about retaking the mainland. Most Taiwanese see China and Taiwan as 2 different states.

To counter this, the PRC version of the 'One China policy' includes: "No two Chinas, and no one China and one Taiwan."

This has been explained in various ways on this thread. No country can *officially* view Taiwan and China as separate countries. Officially recognizing Taiwan automatically means China closes its embassy in that country. (Bye-bye, market access.)

No dynasty of "Chinese/ han ethnicity" claimed Taiwan as a province. The Manchus (non-han) from the north, when they conquered China and established the Ching (or Qing) dynasty, tacked Taiwan onto the province of Fujian on the mainland in the late 17th century.

For a much longer time, since before nation-states came into being, present-day Taiwan was the northwest frontier of an oceanic Austronesian culture that stretched to Hawaii, Easter Island, Aotearoa, and Madagascar.

When the Portuguese, Spanish and Dutch laid claims to Taiwan, they did not have to contend with competing claims from a mainland empire. The island was traditionally seen in China as an outpost for pirates and outlaws.

All this to say, Taiwan as a province of China is a relatively recent idea.

In the 20th century, leaders in China woke up to the fact that modern navies can influence political power. Today, I think China's most compelling claim (I can't call it a 'legitimate' claim) to Taiwan is based on 'realpolitik.' Look at a map. In an insecure world, why would China not wish to lay claim on Taiwan? (And for that matter, Tibet and East Turkestan.) This is not an ethical argument for China's claims, and the subjugation of local populations, it's an explanation of the mechanics of 'realpolitik' at work.

If Taiwan is to enjoy the peaceful fruits of self-determination, the world will first have to become a more "secure" place.

I respect your knowledge of the situation, which is obviously far broader than mine.

But I asked a simple question, and I'm curious: Is there a single country in the world which officially views Taiwan and China as being separate states?

Correct. To which I immediately replied:

If you don't know the answer, that's cool. I don't know the answer either. That's why I asked ilha formosa.

There are certainly enough people inside and outside the country who talk about independence. Even the PRC has acknowledged it in their law what would consider such a declaration an act of war. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Secession_Law_of_the_People's_Republic_of_China  

(the apostrophe broke that link. You'll have to paste it.

But of course, short of technicalities like that, officially no country can talk about things as they really are.

Thanks, ilha formosa. Follow-up question: Just to clarify, as far as you know - even the countries that have diplomatic relations with the ROC, and no diplomatic relations with the PRC, consider Taiwan as part of China?

So the PRC gets points for honesty. When Lincoln went to war against the secessionist states, there was no declaration of war by Congress - in fact, there was no law nor article of the Constitution which prohibited state secession. He simply treated it as a "rebellion" and launched military action to crush it.

[precautionary disclaimer] No, VOTD, I do not sympathize with the secessionist states... [/ precautionary disclaimer]

I would assume countries with diplomatic ties to the ROC would agree with whatever the ROC government of the day says. Which can be pretty murky.

On the PRC side, the political unity between the two is a uniform, government-led legal fiction. Through its own indoctrinated and/or fearfully obedient people, many of whom would have influential posts overseas, effectively a low-key public relations campaign is carried out around the world, making the PRC narrative extremely predominant. But when, when, when did the PRC start allowing fair and open elections to be held for the head of Taiwan's government? What year was it, under what circumstances? Which Communist leader said, OK, Taiwan can elect its government leader and legislative assembly?

On the democratic Taiwan side, the political unity between the two is a constantly shifting legal fiction, a word game that all politicians must learn to play. Having missiles pointed at targets all over the island makes this a very delicate matter. Here's a sampler of the language used by Taiwan politicians on the cross-strait relationship. (Caution: depending on your state of mind when you read this, it may induce confusion, overload, apathy, PhD dissertation ideas, laughter...the list goes on.)

But while the official cross-strait status may be smoke, mirrors and murky limbo, Taiwan is swept along by world trends like any other place on Earth. There are plutocrats in Taiwan eager to collude with plutocrats on the mainland and elsewhere, and meanwhile, underneath the formal democratic institutions and mechanisms, and the media circuses, there is a small but highly committed activist community trying to put the pieces of a better society in place. Does that sound familiar?

Actually Ilha, I get the sense that there's alot of good things bubbling under the surface in Taiwan now, and the younger generation maybe looking for new ways to get beyond the old stalemate with Beijing.  With corporate America aligning more closely with mainland China, older economic and strategic allies in ASia maybe reforming around another more independent trading network.  I could see alots of potential there, if North Americans could ever wake up.  Maybe it's just a question of looking in different directions than we're used to.

Here's a good look at today's Taiwan: Dear Taiwan, an English subtitled documentary on youtube, in 3 parts. I highly recommend viewing the discussion between students from Taiwan and China in part 2.

Another reason to be leery of unification with China:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/xinjiang-procedure_610145.html?no...